Former judge wants to bar Muslims from scholarships

Snuckles
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Quote:
A retired judge wants two Ontario universities to bar Muslim students from being awarded scholarships he has established, though the spokesperson for one institution says her school won't support a proposal that "flies in the face of everything we stand for."

Paul Staniszewski said he objects to the "medieval violence" used by the Taliban -- such as when Taliban militants recently kidnapped and beheaded Polish engineer Piotr Stanczak -- and he wishes to "disqualify" Muslim students from receiving financial aid he has paid for.

"I'm reacting to what's going on to people who aren't even soldiers, who are having their heads beheaded and this stuff is shown on the TVs and everything else," Staniszewski told CTV.ca in a phone interview from his Tecumseh, Ont., home, just outside of Windsor.

"I am doing the same thing these people are doing, except I'm not cutting off heads, I'm cutting off applications for help in their studies," he added later in the interview

 

Read it here.


Comments

Unionist
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This is a very suspicious story. The good "judge" appears to have told CTV about his hatred for Muslims, but not the two universities. I wonder who set up this provocation?


gulcher
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His money, his call.


abnormal
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gulcher wrote:
His money, his call.

Ethically or legally?

From a legal point of veiw, if he's set up some sort of endowment fund he may not be able to change the rules retroactively.  However, if he funds it every year by writing a check I'm sure he can do it - if nothing else by simply cancelling the scholarship.

Regardless, I'm sure that he's on shaky legal grounds by trying to exclude a particular group from the scholarship [Rhodes Scholarships were originally only for white males but that has been changed despite specific provisions in Cecil Rhode's will].


Michelle
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Um, no, not "his money".  He gave it to the universities and he didn't attach those conditions when he gave it, otherwise they wouldn't have accepted it.

I have an idea, gulcher: how about NOT condoning racism? 

That said, abnormal is right - if the money is something he gives every year, as opposed to an endowment that he gave already (and the scholarships come from the interest payments) then he can easily cancel the scholarship by simply refusing to give the money any longer.  And good riddance to it, too.


Michelle
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P.S. I'm going to move this to the anti-racism forum.


gulcher
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abnormal wrote:

gulcher wrote:
His money, his call.

Ethically or legally?

From a legal point of veiw, if he's set up some sort of endowment fund he may not be able to change the rules retroactively.  However, if he funds it every year by writing a check I'm sure he can do it - if nothing else by simply cancelling the scholarship.

Regardless, I'm sure that he's on shaky legal grounds by trying to exclude a particular group from the scholarship [Rhodes Scholarships were originally only for white males but that has been changed despite specific provisions in Cecil Rhode's will].

I agree, if he's already set it up in writing prior to this without having included this stipulation, then he's SOL.  He shouldn't then be allowed to reneg, but if it's a question of as you say, writing a cheque, well...unfortunately that's his business in my opinion.


Ghislaine
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I think this story is disgraceful, however at UPEI right now there are scholarships that are only open to Catholic or Aboriginal students. Perhaps he should have went the pro-whatever religion he wants it intended for route, rather than anti- a specific religion.

It is discriminating based on religion, not race though, isn't it? I have a friend who is white and Muslim­ and still enjoys white privilege, while an Arab Christian is going to face racism. I am thinking this guy really intended to exclude Arabs?

Either way, what an idiot. I would love it if universities would tell all of these guys earmarking scholarships for specific religions or races to take their money and go away. But...I think that would lead us down to a discussion of the injustice of the student university financing system and how these sholarships would not be necessary if those issues were properly addressed...


Slumberjack
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Whether it's 'his' money or not, I can't see how the universities can continue awarding these scholarships now that the racist genie is out of the bottle.  Who would want to subsidize their education with this money, except for individuals who agree?  If the institutions do continue awarding these scholarships, would they not be facilitators of racism, even if they do not agree to the limitations?


gulcher
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Michelle wrote:

Um, no, not "his money".  He gave it to the universities and he didn't attach those conditions when he gave it, otherwise they wouldn't have accepted it.

Well, one would hope not anyway.  And if it's true he did not originally attach those conditions in writing, then you're right he shouldn't be able to pull it at his leisure.

Quote:
I have an idea, gulcher: how about NOT condoning racism?

I have an idea too, Michelle:  how about NOT assuming that I condone racism?

What I condone is the freedom for a person to spend their money as they wish.  Do I think the judge is a heel for doing, or saying such a thing?  On a personal level yes...bigotry's an archaic trait...but the man has a right to free speech, and freedom of expression.

 If he chooses to "express" himself by legally being able to pull the funding of a scholarship because he's a racist...well...that's awful, but again...it's his money. 

 But like I've said, if he's on firm legal footing he can do it...if not...he can't.  End of the day he's still an ignorant pr***, but he has the right to his views.

Quote:
That said, abnormal is right - if the money is something he gives every year, as opposed to an endowment that he gave already (and the scholarships come from the interest payments) then he can easily cancel the scholarship by simply refusing to give the money any longer.  And good riddance to it, too.

Agreed.


Slumberjack
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Ghislaine wrote:
It is discriminating based on religion, not race though, isn't it? I have a friend who is white and Muslim­ and still enjoys white privilege, while an Arab Christian is going to face racism. I am thinking this guy really intended to exclude Arabs?

Semantics do not add anything to the core of this discussion.  It's clear what this is about.


Ghislaine
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Slumberjack wrote:

Ghislaine wrote:
It is discriminating based on religion, not race though, isn't it? I have a friend who is white and Muslim­ and still enjoys white privilege, while an Arab Christian is going to face racism. I am thinking this guy really intended to exclude Arabs?

Semantics do not add anything to the core of this discussion.  It's clear what this is about.

I just wanted to use that in pointing out that the university in my province already has several scholarships that discriminate based on religion.


Maysie
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Ghislaine are you equating scholarships designated for Aboriginal students only, Aboriginal students who are an historically excluded group from universities, to restricting a scholarship to anyone who is non-Muslim? Are you really doing that? Do you not see the difference?

And yes, the man is ignorant and meant "Arabs" but clearly has bought the mainstream anti-Muslim crappola.

And whether the judge actually can decide who his money goes to might depend on the university's diversity policy, which may prohibit this kind of racism. Yes, sometimes donors/funders do NOT have a say in who their money goes to.

And I'm sorry, but $3,000 a year? This guy's been a judge for how long? That's nothing to him, nothing at all. 


Ghislaine
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Maysie, I see the difference - I am just pointing out that they are already scholarships to specific groups already. Some are oppressed groups (Aboriginal students), some are privileged groups (Catholics). 

 


It's Me D
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Were a lot of Taliban taking advantage of his scholarship?


Star Spangled C...
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I just wanted to use that in pointing out that the university in my province already has several scholarships that discriminate based on religion.

There are lots of scholarships that are specifically for people of certain races, religions, national backgrounds, etc. The difference here is that the way this guys phrased it is to exclude and demonize a certain culture instead of honouring a certain culture. I mean, if there's an Italian man who wants to offer a scholarship specifically for students of Italian heritage, I have no issue with that. If someone offers a scholarship for everyone EXCEPT Italians, it's vastly different. Both cases are "racial discrimination" but the motivations behind it are what matter.


Slumberjack
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Ghislaine wrote:
  Maysie, I see the difference - I am just pointing out that they are already scholarships to specific groups already. Some are oppressed groups (Aboriginal students), some are privileged groups (Catholics). 

But you don't seem to recognize the difference.  Scholarships designated specifically to assist historically marganilized groups are not designed to be spread around to everyone, with the intent to exclude and single out a specific group of racialized students.  The intent is something entirely different than what this idiot is on about.


RevolutionPlease
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I believe the only scholarships that should be pre-designated are those for historically underrepresented groups.  What if someone said only white people?


Ghislaine
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Well my point is that people already say "only Italian people" or "only Catholic" people and there was no outcry. If you look at any university's scholarship website, there is a huge list targetted to specific groups, be it ethnic, religious, racial etc.  The media coverage here is due to the fact he wants to specifically wants to exclude a particular group, rather than specifically include only one particular group. Due to the precedent though, it is hard to see what the university can do. They already have scholarships that are only for privileged groups, like Catholics.

ETA: And I don't think the solution is to say that only historically oppressed groups can get scholarships. There are not enough to go around, some people will still get left out and some rich racists will just pull their money anyways. The solution is a complete overhaul of the inequitable way that universities are financed in this country to ensure the only barrier is academic performance - not ability to pay.


Ze
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Windsor has already rejected his attempt to ban through guilt by association. Good for them.

I'm not sure Catholics are a "privileged" group -- historically those scholarships are disguised ways to support lower-income people (Catholics being poorer than Protestants in many regions in "English" Canada) or francophones. But there are multitudes of German-Canadian only scholarship programmes, and so on, that might make that point better. Regardless, action designed to support one group is not illegal, nor is it in any way the same as racist exclusions like the one proposed here. 

 

Quote:
What I condone is the freedom for a person to spend their money as they wish.  Do I think the judge is a heel for doing, or saying such a thing?  On a personal level yes...bigotry's an archaic trait...but the man has a right to free speech, and freedom of expression.

He has those rights, but he does not have the right to discriminate and exclude on the basis of race, religion, etc. There was a long battle by anti-racists to make that illegal, and it is illegal, regardless of the effect it has on the "rights" of elites to discriminate. Don't worry though, the structure of North American society still leaves plenty of room for other forms of racism and discrimination. 

 (Is "the right to discriminate" up for debate in this forum?)


It's Me D
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Ze wrote:
Is "the right to discriminate" up for debate in this forum?

Unfortunately often... I had to debate it with several babblers just the other day. 


Maysie
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Ghislaine, you're ahistorical and wrong. Only marginalized groups *need* scholarships, can't you see that? 

Ontario in the colonial context, was founded and run by middle-class WASPs for a very long time (one could argue it still is). And in Ontario, actually, people who were Catholic *were* marginalized, historically. Those scholarships have remained. So? I have no problem with that. I don't care to deny groups access to scholarships, it's Mr Judge Man doing that bullshit. 


Ghislaine
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Maysie wrote:

Ghislaine, you're ahistorical and wrong. Only marginalized groups *need* scholarships, can't you see that? 

Ontario in the colonial context, was founded and run by middle-class WASPs for a very long time (one could argue it still is). And in Ontario, actually, people who were Catholic *were* marginalized, historically. Those scholarships have remained. So? I have no problem with that. I don't care to deny groups access to scholarships, it's Mr Judge Man doing that bullshit. 

I am white and needed a scholarship badly. I did not get one and will finish paying the federal gov't a gazillion dollars in interest in 2022.

Are you saying there are no wealthy people of marginalized groups who can afford their kids' tuition? There are scholarships for Protestants only as well. I am just saying that there would be no outcry is this guy had made it a scholarship for Catholics rather than not for Muslims. The effect is similar - no Muslims need apply, but the message is a pro rather than anti message. Historically Catholics were marginalized, but right now they are a mostly white and privileged group I would assume, in Canada.

This guy is a completely prejudiced idiot who seems to want to call all Muslims Taliban - I don't dispute that in the slightest. However, there reams of scholarships in this country doing the same thing without the objectionable language he used. He could re-word the thing to be for some other religion only and it would be fine according to pretty much everyone here.  Perhaps someone needs to start a scholarship fund for atheists only - now there is a marginalized group!


Maysie
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Ghislaine, you have a point in that of all the racist issues out there, this isn't one on the top 10 of my list. Dude made the news for being a judge and being an over-the-top racist, and we're talking about it, that's all.

And to answer your question, no, there are not wealthy people of marginalized groups because marginalized by definition doesn't include anyone who's wealthy.

Yes, I would consider someone who is lower income and white as marginalized. I don't use "marginalized" as code for "communities of colour", you should know that by now, Ghislaine. People are marginalized in many different ways.

I also think we're all using the language of "scholarship" very loosely. Scholarships are usually merit-based, whereas grants and bursaries are generally needs-based. If anyone out there has more info, please correct me. If that's true, then, no, not everyone is "entitled" to a scholarship just because economically they need one. This is unfair, but true, until that "free post-secondary education" idea happens here.

To reiterate: There are *not* "reams of scholarships in this country doing the same thing without the objectionable language he used."

I'm from several marginalized groups and I didn't qualify for scholarships either. I'm happy about that, as the scholarships went to more deserving people with higher marks than I and I dug myself out of debt eventually. These "Individual Bootstraps" stories, as I like to call them, are really not helpful.


Ghislaine
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Sorry, Maysie - I misunderstood. I understood Muslims as a whole to be interpreted as a marginalized group - including wealthy families. Personally I would categorize all persons of colour marginalized, whether wealthy or not. Thank you for the clarification.


Maysie
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Quote:
Personally I would categorize all persons of colour marginalized, whether wealthy or not.

In general, so would I, but in this context, when it's about money, I wanted to be more specific. 


sanizadeh
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It would be ironic if the institution where he establish the scholarship was one of those with a muslim president, e.g Carleton... His letter would have sound funny: Dear Professor Mohammad xx, hereby I want to exclude muslims from my schlarship blah blah...

 Joking aside, he has the "right" to spend his money the way he wants, and the university has the "obligation" to tell him to take his money and shove it.


gulcher
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Quote:
What I condone is the freedom for a person to spend their money as they wish.  Do I think the judge is a heel for doing, or saying such a thing?  On a personal level yes...bigotry's an archaic trait...but the man has a right to free speech, and freedom of expression.

He has those rights, but he does not have the right to discriminate and exclude on the basis of race, religion, etc. There was a long battle by anti-racists to make that illegal, and it is illegal, regardless of the effect it has on the "rights" of elites to discriminate. Don't worry though, the structure of North American society still leaves plenty of room for other forms of racism and discrimination. 

 (Is "the right to discriminate" up for debate in this forum?)

You may be right...he probably does not have a legal leg to stand on when it comes to discrimination in terms of who can and cannot receive his scholarship money.  But on a private level, he has every right to spew his racist drivel...and it's a right worth protecting, as it's the same one that protects those of us who wish to discriminate against racists like this judge.


It's Me D
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Gulcher: No one is discriminating against this judge...


Ze
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Ghislaine wrote:
Historically Catholics were marginalized, but right now they are a mostly white and privileged group I would assume, in Canada.

In general, I think it's a bad idea when talking abut antiracism to assume anything like that. Prevailing assumptions come from the deep background and do tend to reflect forms of prejudice. (I'm in no way accusing you of that, ghislaine, it's a general point. We assume all sorts of things. I assumed in grade 3 that my teacher was telling the truth when she said "Indians have more land per person than the rest of us.") 

In this case -- my anecdotal evidence on Catholics in Ontario would see them as lower-income and including more embers of racialized groups than non-Catholics. I'm not here with a brief for the misogyny and homophobia that governs the institutional Catholic church, but if you go to a downtown church in Toronto you'll see mass filled with Filipinos, mass in Tamil, etc. The people in the pews are not "white" or privileged in that sense. Or you'll see a church packed with Portuguese-Canadians, mainly women -- not the single most elite group in Ontario. On the other hand, yes you can go to churches that are "whiter" and wealthier than the average.

 

 
sanizadeh wrote:

It would be ironic if the institution where he establish the scholarship was one of those with a muslim president, e.g Carleton... His letter would have sound funny: Dear Professor Mohammad xx, hereby I want to exclude muslims from my schlarship blah blah...

It would. And since York seems to be one of the places in question, it is!  


gulcher
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It's Me D wrote:
Gulcher: No one is discriminating against this judge...

Well, I can't speak for anyone else here, but I don't know the man...haven't talked to him about this story in particular, or personally heard his side.

So, given all I've said about him thus far in this thread, that he's a bigoted "heel", an "ignorant pr***", and a "racist"...I think that qualifies as prejudicial.  And preconceived notions?  Yep, I definitely qualify.

Based on that criteria (set forth by Noah Webster, for what it's worth), I'd say I've been fairly discriminatory against this judge.


oldgoat
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In the Toronto Star article on the subject, the retired judge's wife distanced herself from his comments.  She told the Star her husband is ailing, and that his comments were "misguided".

I would not support age as an excuse for racism, but I might consider an actual age related disease process of the brain, were that the case.  Anyway, sounds like the universities are having nothing to do with it, as should be the case.

 

It's scary though that this guy sat on the bench for decades, and there are probably more like him still working.


Ghislaine
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That is scary oldgoat - especially considering the cases involving security certificates and secret evidence.


M. Spector
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What's even scarier is that babblers would jump to this bigot's defence in the name of freedom of expression


Yibpl
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CUPE wants to ban Jews from employment, a retired judge wants to ban Muslims from receiving scholarships?!?!  When did this resurgance of the Orange Lodge happen?!?


M. Spector
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Yibpl wrote:
CUPE wants to ban Jews from employment

That's a stupid lie.


Unionist
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Yibpl wrote:
CUPE wants to ban Jews from employment,

Lying slander. Didn't your parents explain to you that your tongue would wither and fall out if shit like that came out of your mouth? Or did you inherit your bad habits?

 


Unionist
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M. Spector wrote:

What's even scarier is that babblers would jump to this bigot's defence in the name of freedom of expression

Agreed. This thread has some disturbing elements to it.

Here's what I think:

When will the police and/or the Crown investigate the laying of charges against this retired "judge" for hate speech? He went to the media (obviously) and is spending money to provoke hatred for Muslims. Ahenakew did neither - he was a fool who got sucked in by an interviewer.

The "judge" should explain to a sitting judge why his Islamophobic ass should not rot in prison for a while.


sanizadeh
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Unionist wrote:

Here's what I think:

When will the police and/or the Crown investigate the laying of charges against this retired "judge" for hate speech? He went to the media (obviously) and is spending money to provoke hatred for Muslims. Ahenakew did neither - he was a fool who got sucked in by an interviewer.

The "judge" should explain to a sitting judge why his Islamophobic ass should not rot in prison for a while.

But If I remember correctly, you did not believe in hate speech law,do you?

No, I don't think he belongs in jail or should be prosecuted, but obviously he can take his money and shove it.


Unionist
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sanizadeh wrote:

But If I remember correctly, you did not believe in hate speech law,do you?

 

I called for the revocation of Section 13 of the CHRA. I have never opposed the Criminal Code prohibition of hate crimes:

Quote:

319. (1) Every one who, by communicating statements in any public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace is guilty of

(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or

(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Wilful promotion of hatred

(2) Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of

(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or

(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Defences

(3) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2)

(a) if he establishes that the statements communicated were true;

(b) if, in good faith, the person expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text;

(c) if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true; or

(d) if, in good faith, he intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of hatred toward an identifiable group in Canada.

This "judge" low-life may be in violation of Section 319(2). Ahenakew was not, as his re-trial demonstrated. The "judge" should be prosecuted, benefit from the presumption of innocence, and maybe even be granted bail, on condition he promises to contribute some money to a Muslim charity.

Does anyone see the disconnect between the frenzied barbaric hysteria created about the Jew-hating sad fool Ahenakew, and kid-glove civilized debate over this wretched Islamophobe wealthy scion of society?

I do.

 


M. Spector
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gulcher wrote:

End of the day he's still an ignorant pr***, but he has the right to his views.

That brilliant thought deserves to be immortalized. 

How be we carve it on your tombstone?


sanizadeh
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Unionist wrote:

Does anyone see the disconnect between the frenzied barbaric hysteria created about the Jew-hating sad fool Ahenakew, and kid-glove civilized debate over this wretched Islamophobe wealthy scion of society?

You are correct, but this is an issue on which the Jewish organizations should have shown some leadership. Instead of dismissing Ahenakew as ignorant and fool he is, they asked for his prosecution, which eventually blew in their face.. 


RevolutionPlease
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Please don't call a baited FN a fool in the AR forum, ignorant yes.  The people that pursued this were the fools.


Michelle
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Yibpl wrote:
CUPE wants to ban Jews from employment,

As others have stated, this is a lie.  If you tell a lie like this again on our web site, you will be banned.


torontoprofessor
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Ghislaine: " I am thinking this guy really intended to exclude Arabs?"
Maysie: "And yes, the man is ignorant and meant "Arabs" but clearly has bought the mainstream anti-Muslim crappola."

I doubt that he meant "Arabs", since the Taliban -- the source of this man's discontent -- are mostly Pashtun and rarely Arab.


jacki-mo
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One minor question: Of what relevance is this guy's being a judge or retired? Why not have the title (here and in Torstar) be " Doner wnats to bar..."


Unionist
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jacki-mo wrote:
One minor question: Of what relevance is this guy's being a judge or retired?

1. "Judge" - it is an important warning sign that not all members of our judiciary are civilized and enlightened. Caveat emptor.

2. "Retired" - his public pension should be cut off for approaching the media and inciting hatred against human beings. Let him live off his relatives and savings.

Both very relevant factors IMO.


jacki-mo
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Well, I don't know. I get riled when I see adjectives in story titles  e.g. "single mother ..." Would it make a differenc if he was a mailman who won a lottery and donated a scholarship?


Unionist
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jacki-mo wrote:
Would it make a differenc if he was a mailman who won a lottery and donated a scholarship?

Single, or married?

ETA: Look, kidding side, people who endow scholarships are generally among the privileged wealthy elite in our society. If a judge (retired or not) says "Muslims are undeserving", it is far more important than if a letter carrier says that. Why? Because the judge can make a difference with those views, especially backed by power and money.

As for "retired", the only reason the MSM emphasize that is so that a lynch mob (headed by me) won't go demonstrate outside his courtroom and demand that he be jailed.


jacki-mo
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Maybe "retired" was a typo and they meant "retarded"


Caissa
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Can we avoid that word, please.


Star Spangled C...
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jacki-mo wrote:
Well, I don't know. I get riled when I see adjectives in story titles  e.g. "single mother ..." Would it make a differenc if he was a mailman who won a lottery and donated a scholarship?

Yes, because mailmen aren't entrusted to blindly and objectively dispense justice.


Snert
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Nor are retired judges.

If this guy is in his 80's, he was probably already retired long before North America even added "Taliban" to its lexicon. 

And honestly, from the sounds of it, this guy has about as much influence as you or I, and maybe less.  I don't for a moment believe that the MSM picked this up because he's "rich" or "important" but because he's such an obvious crank.  Even his wife is distancing herself from his comments.

Quote:
his public pension should be cut off for approaching the media and inciting hatred against human beings.

Should all public-sector employees who are bigots be subject to the same?

I'm pretty sure I know your answer.  Maybe you're just acting out?  Or do you really think that in addition to whatever legal sanctions we want to throw at cranks like this, they should also be robbed of a pension that they paid into?

Heck, what should we do with the pensions of people who not only speak hatred, but who actually harm others?   


It's Me D
rabble-rouser
Member: 16152
Joined: Apr 22 2008

snert wrote:
Heck, what should we do with the pensions of people who not only speak hatred, but who actually harm others?

For a Babbler who himself has claimed to be greatly harmed by the thoughtless words of others one might think that you'd have a little more respect for the harm they can cause others; I guess not though.


Snert
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Member: 16695
Joined: Nov 4 2008

Quote:

For a Babbler who himself has claimed to be greatly harmed by the thoughtless words of others one might think that you'd have a little more respect for the harm they can cause others; I guess not though.

What a juvenile piece of "logic" that was.

If I believe that words can hurt, then I MUST support any and every punishment for them?

Fine.  You be consistent too then.  The next time someone's words hurt me, we get to take their pension.  OK?  

edited with apologies.

I reread and am guessing you meant that I was implying words =/= harm.

I wouldn't say that words cannot harm someone, but in this context I was using harm to refer to physical or tangible harm.  I don't care to be insulted by someone or belittled or vilifed by someone, but I'd take either over being assaulted by them.

 


Star Spangled C...
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Member: 16502
Joined: Sep 15 2008

Snert wrote:

Nor are retired judges.

You're right. And I'm certainly glad he's not currently on the bench. But one would have to presume that someone doesn't just SUDDENLY develop bigoted views after their 65th birthday. It's quite likely he was bigoted for years while serving as a judge but has only been exposed now that he's retired.


It's Me D
rabble-rouser
Member: 16152
Joined: Apr 22 2008

I was only responding to the text I quoted; you can reply to unionist re: his posts.


Unionist
\,,/ rabble-rouser-l33t \,,/
Member: 12323
Joined: Dec 11 2005

Snert wrote:

Unionist wrote:
his public pension should be cut off for approaching the media and inciting hatred against human beings.

Should all public-sector employees who are bigots be subject to the same?

No, only this one.

Quote:
I'm pretty sure I know your answer.

Good, I think predictability is a plus.

Quote:
Maybe you're just acting out?

Naw, I'm spending the weekend with the family. No big plans.

Quote:
Or do you really think that in addition to whatever legal sanctions we want to throw at cranks like this, they should also be robbed of a pension that they paid into?

How do you know he paid into his pension? There are lots of non-contributory defined benefit pension plans out there. But I'll tell you what. I would be prepared to look at a return of his contributions (if any), at a fair rate of interest, and simply cut off the public "employer" portion of the benefit. That way, he doesn't lose anything he's invested, but the taxpayer is not saddled with the burden of supporting a xenophobic dirtbag.

Have we got a deal?

Quote:
Heck, what should we do with the pensions of people who not only speak hatred, but who actually harm others?   

Not sure. I guess you don't think this piece of shit harmed others. I wish I shared your evidently Christian "turn the other cheek" philosophy. But I'm a Jew, you see, and we never made it past the Old Testament:

עין תחת עין, שן תחת שן

 Look it up.


Star Spangled C...
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Member: 16502
Joined: Sep 15 2008

Pretty sure that translates as "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" but my Hebrew is pretty rusty....


Snert
rabble-rouser-supreme
Member: 16695
Joined: Nov 4 2008

Quote:
I was only responding to the text I quoted

I think I see better what you meant.  Sorry for the insult. 

Quote:
Not sure. I guess you don't think this piece of shit harmed others.

Er, no.  But last I checked, we had legal processes for dealing with cases like this that had nothing to do with withdrawing someone's pension.  I'm just scratching my head about that part.  Why not use the processes in place first, before you start pulling new punishments out of thin air? 


Unionist
\,,/ rabble-rouser-l33t \,,/
Member: 12323
Joined: Dec 11 2005

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:

Pretty sure that translates as "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" but my Hebrew is pretty rusty....

 

Give the man a cigar!!!

Indeed, that's what it is.

It's a poor foundation for a judicial system, but sometimes (like with the retired judge-creep), it just kinda hits the spot.

We Hebrews had a way with words...


Unionist
\,,/ rabble-rouser-l33t \,,/
Member: 12323
Joined: Dec 11 2005

Snert wrote:

But last I checked, we had legal processes for dealing with cases like this that had nothing to do with withdrawing someone's pension.  I'm just scratching my head about that part.  Why not use the processes in place first, before you start pulling new punishments out of thin air? 

I'm a patient person.

If you've followed this thread, I've been calling for due process for ages now (since Feb. 26, 2009):

Unionist wrote:
When will the police and/or the Crown investigate the laying of charges against this retired "judge" for hate speech?

I even gave the idiots the Criminal Code sections to prosecute under:

Quote:

319. (1) Every one who, by communicating statements in any public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace is guilty of

(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or

(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Wilful promotion of hatred

(2) Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of

(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or

(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.

What more can a humble citizen do?

Tired of waiting, I have now called upon the executive branch of government to stop feeding this scummy character at the public trough.

Enough is enough, no?

 


Slumberjack
rabble-rouser-for-life
Member: 11108
Joined: Aug 8 2005

I sense that it isn't at all about the need for a diligent investigation under the existing parameters of law, and the desire to see the prescribed sanctions applied where necessary, as it should be.  More specifically, it appears to involve a proclivity towards judicial outcomes that can be traced to scorched earth ideologies.


gulcher
rabble-rouser
Member: 17179
Joined: Feb 22 2009

M. Spector wrote:

What's even scarier is that babblers would jump to this bigot's defence in the name of freedom of expression

No, what's scarier is legislating behaviour.

I will always defend a bigot's right to freely express themselves - provided it does not manifest in the physical harm of another - because without the right to free speech and freedom of expression, what would become us?   You can't just allow rights for certain people and not others...those rights either protect everyone or no one's protected at all.


gulcher
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Unionist wrote:

The "judge" should explain to a sitting judge why his Islamophobic ass should not rot in prison for a while.

By "prison" don't you mean "Ministry of Love"?


gulcher
rabble-rouser
Member: 17179
Joined: Feb 22 2009

M. Spector wrote:

gulcher wrote:

End of the day he's still an ignorant pr***, but he has the right to his views.

That brilliant thought deserves to be immortalized. 

How be we carve it on your tombstone?

What's your point?


Unionist
\,,/ rabble-rouser-l33t \,,/
Member: 12323
Joined: Dec 11 2005

gulcher wrote:

No, what's scarier is legislating behaviour.

LOL, I think he meant "speech". That's cool, not everyone can think as fast as they type.

Quote:
I will always defend a bigot's right to freely express themselves - provided it does not manifest in the physical harm of another...

So, if all scholarship donors excluded Muslims and told the media that it was because Muslims behead Poles, that would be fine with you?


gulcher
rabble-rouser
Member: 17179
Joined: Feb 22 2009

Unionist wrote:
gulcher wrote:

No, what's scarier is legislating behaviour.

LOL, I think he meant "speech". That's cool, not everyone can think as fast as they type.

Quote:
I will always defend a bigot's right to freely express themselves - provided it does not manifest in the physical harm of another...

So, if all scholarship donors excluded Muslims and told the media that it was because Muslims behead Poles, that would be fine with you?

Fine?  No, I think that would suck, and it would be a terrible reflection of our society.  But do I want the government involved, writing laws that dictate what people can or cannot do, make, say, think - outside of the realm of physical harm?   No, that's worse, in my opinion.


abnormal
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Member: 2245
Joined: Aug 18 2001

I agree with Gulcher - freedom of speech includes the right to say things that I personally find offensive - in fact, freedom of speech can't exist without that right.


Unionist
\,,/ rabble-rouser-l33t \,,/
Member: 12323
Joined: Dec 11 2005

abnormal wrote:
I agree with Gulcher - freedom of speech includes the right to say things that I personally find offensive - in fact, freedom of speech can't exist without that right.

This isn't about freedom of speech. It's about funding scholarships excluding Muslims as "beheaders" and giving media interviews bragging about it. Do you defend his right to do that? Which part? What about the universities - do they have a right to say, "ok, that's fine, we accept"?

gulcher wrote:
Fine?  No, I think that would suck, and it would be a terrible reflection of our society.  But do I want the government involved, writing laws that dictate what people can or cannot do, make, say, think - outside of the realm of physical harm?   No, that's worse, in my opinion.

So, if all scholarships excluded Muslims on the wish of the donors, you would oppose any legal action to correct that? I'm trying to understand how far you are prepared to go to defend what you (and abnormal) are portraying as freedom of "speech".

 


Catchfire
moderator
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McGill University, famously, set a quota for how many Jewish students they would admit each year. I guess since it was 'their institution' this was perfectly acceptable, and whatever Mordecai Richler was always going on about was just an anti-freedom tirade.


Unionist
\,,/ rabble-rouser-l33t \,,/
Member: 12323
Joined: Dec 11 2005

In fact, there are not many law and medical faculties in Canada that didn't apply "numerus clausus" until the 1950s and later. Freedom takes some unexpected forms in some babblers' posts.


Ze
rabble-rouser
Member: 102
Joined: Nov 14 2008

I dunno, but it seems to be that if this discussion is going to include lots of defences of racism in the name of free speech, then it's in violation of the ground rules for the anti-racism forum. Maybe it should never have been moved here, since it includes implicit defences of racist behaviour. 

To "free speech" defenders here -- would you be able to tolerate any action to defend the rights of vulnerable minorities and marginalized groups? Or must it all be swept away (including the weak existing Canadian laws against hate speech, inciting violence, etc) , in the name of free speech for people with large amounts of money? 


RevolutionPlease
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Member: 15629
Joined: Oct 15 2007

The drift was bothering me too Ze but I didn't know what to say.  Your post is a good reminder.  But I am happy it was moved here because the free speech defenders are being called on it.  It's hate speech they're defending.


abnormal
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Member: 2245
Joined: Aug 18 2001

Free speech has to include the right to say things that I find offensive.  If you insist that free speech only allows people to say things that are "acceptable" the question becomes "acceptable to who?" which is a very slippery slope - how do you define what's acceptable and how do you decide who makes the call with respect to any particular statement?

Back on the question of the scholarship - if he's already endowed it then he's out of luck - the universities will do whatever they want to do within the confines of the law (depending on how it's being funded that may include eliminating it completely and returning the funds - I'd argue that they should follow that path - of course, if he has an ulterior motive this may be exactly what he's hoping for).  If he's simply cutting a check every year he's free to stop doing so.

 


Unionist
\,,/ rabble-rouser-l33t \,,/
Member: 12323
Joined: Dec 11 2005

abnormal wrote:

Free speech has to include the right to say things that I find offensive. 

No one in this thread said offensive speech should be banned. Virtually every babbler I can think of has opposed such a view.

But this is about hate speech. Are you opposed to section 319 of the Criminal Code?

Quote:
Back on the question of the scholarship...

1. Do you think establishing a scholarship for "everyone except Muslims" is a matter of free speech? Forget about the right to stop funding it, which is what you keep repeating.

2. Do you think such a scholarship is lawful?

 


M. Spector
\,,/ rabble-rouser-l33t \,,/
Member: 9273
Joined: Feb 19 2005

RevolutionPlease wrote:

But I am happy it was moved here because the free speech defenders are being called on it.

Just a note for future reference: defenders of racism get "called on" in all of babble's forums. Racism is not OK in any of them.

We don't have racism-free zones on babble - at least not if I can help it. The whole site is supposed to be racism-free.


RevolutionPlease
rabble-rouser-supreme
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Joined: Oct 15 2007

Agreed M. Spector but there's many that squeak by.  Just my 2 cents but plenty of Islamophobia takes place in the form of "news".


abnormal
rabble-rouser
Member: 2245
Joined: Aug 18 2001

Unionist wrote:
abnormal wrote:

Free speech has to include the right to say things that I find offensive. 

No one in this thread said offensive speech should be banned. Virtually every babbler I can think of has opposed such a view.

But this is about hate speech. Are you opposed to section 319 of the Criminal Code?

Actually yes - I think his statement is uninformed and offensive but I don't think it constitutes hate speech. 

Quote:
Quote:
Back on the question of the scholarship...

1. Do you think establishing a scholarship for "everyone except Muslims" is a matter of free speech? Forget about the right to stop funding it, which is what you keep repeating.

He's welcome to say what he wants - whether he can legally set up the scholarship is a different question.

Quote:
2. Do you think such a scholarship is lawful?

If it's defined as "anyone who's not Muslim" the answer is probably no.  But there is always more than one way to skin a cat.  He's a judge - I give him credit for being able to figure out a legal way to make it happen. 

 

 


M. Spector
\,,/ rabble-rouser-l33t \,,/
Member: 9273
Joined: Feb 19 2005

Scholarships that discriminate on the basis of race or religion are contrary to public policy in Ontario, since the decision of the Court of Appeal in 1990 in the case of Canada Trust Co. v Ontario (Human Rights Commission), 74 O.R. (2d) 481; 69 D.L.R. (4th) 321.

The Ontario Human Rights Commission says:

Quote:
The Canada Trust case involved a scholarship that was restricted to Protestant "Christians of the White race". According to the trust document, the person who had set up the trust believed that "the White race is, as a whole, best qualified by nature to be entrusted with the development of civilization and the general progress of the world ..." The Court of Appeal's response to this trust is worth reproducing:
Quote:
To say that a trust premised on these notions of racism and religious superiority contravenes contemporary public policy is to [state] the obvious. The concept that any one race or any one religion is intrinsically better than any other is patently at variance with the democratic principles governing our pluralistic society, in which equality rights are constitutionally guaranteed, and in which the multicultural heritage of Canadians is preserved and enhanced.

The trust had been set up in 1923 by Reuben Wells Leonard. It also specified, for good measure, that no more than 25% of the available funds could be awarded to women.


Ze
rabble-rouser
Member: 102
Joined: Nov 14 2008

M. Spector wrote:
We don't have racism-free zones on babble - at least not if I can help it. The whole site is supposed to be racism-free.

 Let's hope so. But isn't this forum is supposed to have special rules? Unless I misread the forum description. 

Like Unionist said, no one's opposed free speech here. Some people however are defending restrictions against hate speech, which I'm surprised is controversial; hell, it's even the law of Canada.  


RevolutionPlease
rabble-rouser-supreme
Member: 15629
Joined: Oct 15 2007

Hang in there Ze, like Maysie said somewhere, it's a glacial struggle.


Cueball
rabble-rouser-for-life
Member: 5790
Joined: Dec 23 2003

gulcher wrote:
Unionist wrote:

The "judge" should explain to a sitting judge why his Islamophobic ass should not rot in prison for a while.

By "prison" don't you mean "Ministry of Love"?

Trite use of Orwell. Sad. And just think, Orwell got shot in the throat so as to defend the rights of future generations to abuse his memory.


Yibpl
rabble-rouser
Member: 15791
Joined: Dec 5 2007

Michelle; sent you a PM.


Yibpl
rabble-rouser
Member: 15791
Joined: Dec 5 2007

M. Spector wrote:

Yibpl wrote:
CUPE wants to ban Jews from employment

That's a stupid lie.


Unionist wrote:

Yibpl wrote:
CUPE wants to ban Jews from employment,

Lying slander. … shit like that came out of your mouth? …
 



Michelle wrote:

Yibpl wrote:
CUPE wants to ban Jews from employment,

As others have stated, this is a lie.  If you tell a lie like this again on our web site, you will be banned.




A lie?

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/591429
"...calling for Canadian universities to ban Israeli academics, an idea previously floated by CUPE Ontario President Sid Ryan. ..."

If the resolution that eventually did pass; watered down only after significant negative publicity; named ANY group other then Israelis it would be overwhelming condemned, and rightfully so. I am saddened that on Babble, where the vast majority of posters would be incensed at a resolution like this that named any other group, feel that it is acceptable to discriminate against Israelis/Jews and resort to name calling when that hypocrisy is pointed out.


Unionist
\,,/ rabble-rouser-l33t \,,/
Member: 12323
Joined: Dec 11 2005

Don't you dare mention Jews in the same breath as Israel, you Jew-hater! And stop lying about CUPE. May your tongue shrivel and fall out!

 


Makwa
moderator
Member: 11724
Joined: Oct 20 2005

On that high note of sophistication and urbane repartee, I think we shall conclude this discussion, given that it can't possibly get any better.

_____________________________________________

There may not be time for us all to run / in tandem together - / the horizon calls with its parallel lines. / It may not be right for you to have and hold / in one way forever and yet you still have time


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