Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Iran....Mali Next?

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kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Fidel wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Either they agree with the mission or they are going against their principles for political gain.  Which do you think it is Fidel?

The NDP wasn't doing much good for anybody when they were at 10% in FPTP opinion polls.

You are right but that still doesn't answer the question.  If they look just like the other parties they may get the votes of the voters who used to vote for the other parties. It is a sound electoral strategy and should gain them power.  Mulcair will follow in the footsteps of great NDP Premiers like Doer and Dosanjh.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I hope you are right. 

I wil note that no NDP government after tasting the forbidden fruit of a FPTP phoney majority have been able or willing to chop down the FPTP tree.

Fidel

Except that Mulcairs party will have the opportunity to make each Canadian of voting age exactly equal to one vote at the ballot box every four years.

Which of your two corrupt old line parties in Ottawa supports electoral reform toward a fair voting system besides neither.

FPTP was adequate when there were only Whigs and Tories to vote for. Things have changed since that era just before electricity was invented, and when FPTP was considered a fair electoral system favouring landed aristocracies, colonialist agendas and the like.

A lot has changed since then, though. Women, indigenous people and those of us owning no land can vote now. Its legal even.

I know conservatives are generally intolerant of change among other things, but we cant remain stuck in the 19th century forever. For the rest of us with higher aspirations for the country and advanced democracy, remaining stuck in the Napoleonic era would be hellish.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I hope you are right about the NDP and I really mean that sincerely. PR would be a good first step in electoral reform. Remind me again which PR system the NDP has promised to implement when elected?

However since this is a thread about various imperial wars I will note that France the country leading the imperial forces has PR and a socialist government.  Israel has a PR system with one of the lowest thresholds in the world and it hasn't seemed to help their foreign policy.  Germany has a PR system and Greece and Spain do as well if I am not mistaken.  I think PR is preferable but no guarantee that the peoples' will have any chance of being implemented.

Fidel

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I hope you are right. 

I wil note that no NDP government after tasting the forbidden fruit of a FPTP phoney majority have been able or willing to chop down the FPTP tree.

You just wanna see the NDP wiped out in the prairies altogther. We know.

Which of the Whigs or Tories in Otttawa support electoral reform besides neither party. Ièll give you three guesses, and the first two dont count. wink

They had STV in Alberta and Manitoba. Didnt fly for very long.

The NDP has fair voting covered nationally and in Canadas largest province.

Andrea Horwath said: "If we were to form a government, we would start having that conversation again," she told Gail O'Gorman. "The last conversation, it was scaremongering, and nobody understands it."

Anyway I can see youre more interested in spewing your usual venom against the NDP than discussing real issues. Discussing the real Canada is not your style I find

Fidel

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I hope you are right about the NDP and I really mean that sincerely. PR would be a good first step in electoral reform. Remind me again which PR system the NDP has promised to implement when elected?

A proportional voting system. There are several to choose from, but the NDP generally supports decisions made by citizens assemblies and law society. Letting people choose and public consultations are generally found to be the most democratic way.

Quote:
However since this is a thread about various imperial wars I will note that France the country leading the imperial forces has PR and a socialist government.  Israel has a PR system with one of the lowest thresholds in the world and it hasn't seemed to help their foreign policy.  Germany has a PR system and Greece and Spain do as well if I am not mistaken.  I think PR is preferable but no guarantee that the peoples' will have any chance of being implemented.

Gee I never thought of it like that before. I suppose, too, that having natural gas to cook with doesn't actually save me from having to cook. So what good is natural gas to us, really? Puh!

And the lead Gladio nation, the USSA, does not have a PR system. Imagine that for a moment.

France, however, does have every single item listed in FDR's second bill of rights promised to Americans. And France has PR.

And while France has socialized medicine, affordable post-secondary education, state-funded nannies who do laundry and cooking for new mothers, Americans are still waiting. In fact, every other rich OECD country has gained every item on FDR's 2nd bill of rights except FDR's country, that one without PR.

Like French people have had for some time, Americans should want a modern electoral system, too, don't you think? I know that neocolonialism and fair voting are two separate issues altogether, but why not understand both issues simultaneously? Your logic is  fallaceously flawed, kropotkin. You must try harder.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Imperialism thrives in countries with both PR and FPTP so to me it seems logical that it is not a big factor in determining foreign policy. Other factors seem to far outweigh the effect of the voting system. 

In the meantime all the parties that are capable of forming the next government of this country support the imperial projects that are being rolled out by Canada's NATO allies.

Fidel

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Imperialism thrives in countries with both PR and FPTP so to me it seems logical that it is not a big factor in determining foreign policy. Other factors seem to far outweigh the effect of the voting system.

And so because the NDP is unable to reverse necolonialism in Africa and the Middle East, or Gladio advances into the former Iron Curtain countries, the French are only kidding themselves with owning FDR's 2nd bill of rights? Tell that to Americans indebted up to their eyeballs with student loans and mortgages, and that same country with the most privatized health care system in the world and shittiest national health statistics among richest countries.

kropotkin wrote:
In the meantime all the parties that are capable of forming the next overnment of this country support the imperial projects that are being rolled out by Canada's NATO allies.

So what youre saying, really, is that the NDP's vote for a no-fly zone over Libya had no real effect on Gladio manouvering to create a new Islamic emirate in the Maghreb, or the imperialist decision to separate Libyans from their oil. I hear ya now.

And so if the NDP's vote either way on a no-fly zone over Libya was inconsequential, why are you more worried about it? Are you afraid Harper and his sub-moronic gaggle of Albertan MP's will lose the next federal election if the NDP doesn't comit political suicide?

Wouldn't it be just as unprincipled for the NDP to betray NDP voters by knowingly sacrificing themselves on principled swords when it comes to votes which matter not to the overall Gladio terror campaigns in natural resource-rich countries on the other side of the world?

Should we forego cooking with natural gas because we still have to peel potatoes and carrots and wash dishes afterward?

I know you want it all - to have your cake and eat it, too. So do I.  I find most of the time I have to rollup my sleeves and do the work, though. Democracy is like that. No one is going to hand it to us and especially not the Gladio Gang Inc. Did Russians give up at Leningrad or Stalingrad because imperialists  and their Nazi friends were looking good for victory. No, they did not. Did Vietnamese take one look agt the high tech army marching into their country and say, Well there`s no point in hoping for social democracy now. No, they did not. One thing at a time, kropotkin.

NDPP

 

The same ndp that is supposedly committing itself to decolonization, indigenous sovereignty and  'just settlements' here in our home on native lands -  is openly supporting  'the total reconquest of Mali', according to France's Socialist  Defense Minister.

While the indigenous Tuareg, continue their own longstanding struggle for 'rights and title' and self-determination over the lands and resources of Azawad  - they are now being crushed, maligned and murdered by the west's corporate conquistadores and their Al-CIA-DUH cut-throats.

With the blessing and benediction of our 'loyal opposition', as  once again they run with the hares and hunt with the hounds.

What seems an obvious contradiction here obviously isn't.

The means and mendacities may be different, the ends are the same.

No difference...

 

Reports of War Atrocities in Mali Grow as France and Allies Settle In For A Long War  -  by Roger Annis

http://rabble.ca/news/2013/01/reports-war-atrocities-mali-grow-france-an...

"Remy reports that soldiers of the Mali army, following in the wake of the French air strikes and ground force invasion six days earlier, seized people in the town and executed them summarily. Their bodies were thrown into numerous pits, pictured in accompanying photos."

http://lbha.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=knee&action=print&thread=3555

"He writes that when a photographer of the newspaper later questioned an officer of the Mali army about the photos of body parts he had taken, the officer declared, 'So what do you think we did with the people we grabbed? We snuffed them out.'

In Canada, on Wednesday, NDP war critic Jack Harris appeared on a panel of Evan Solomon's 'Power and Politics' program on CBC News Network.

He explained that the NDP has been closely consulted by the government and supports the mission without hesitation."

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Fidel wrote:

Wouldn't it be just as unprincipled for the NDP to betray NDP voters by knowingly sacrificing themselves on principled swords when it comes to votes which matter not to the overall Gladio terror campaigns in natural resource-rich countries on the other side of the world?

That is one view and it is at the crux of our difference in opinion about the NDP.  I fully supported the NDP when my MP was willing to take the principled stands.  However he was marginalized and then he refused to seek reelection.  There were no political points to be scored by opposing the criminalization of gay sex among teenagers but I was proud to have elected an MP who could stand on principle.  I was also proud of his push to have a Peace portfolio in shadow government but that is not the focus of the party and I agree with you it is because of the political calculations being made on the road to power and not about universal principles that are worth fighting for.

I agree there are no points to be scored opposing the bombing of Africans in support of the humanitarian mining companies from Canada that are doing such fine work in the region. So a pragmatic party like the NDP will of course agree to take the easy route. I expect the NDP in government to follow the same path they have taken as OO otherwise they would be inherently lying to all the centrist voters they are courting. 

Fidel

This country has been quite a bit further to political right than very many OEDC capitalist countries. It doesn't have to be this way. Canada could easily be in the top five most competitive economies in the world. We don't have to be run by bankers and bond salesman. Not if we don't want to be, and that is what frightens them - to know that Canadians don't really need to continue nourishing the parasitic appendage known as the financial sector.

As for the NATO terror, it's been this way since WW II with the stay behind armies and supporting terrorism around the world. The U.S.A. was born of terror campaigns since the sons of liberty. And the Brits and French,  Germans, Belgians etc are pursuing modern day colonialism in Africa, Middle East and expanding deep into Central Asia.

Economist Michael Hudson says that we won't be seeing too many Vietnam style conflicts anymore. Too expensive. Imperialists prefer aerial bombing campaigns to land wars as a result. They are trying to revive the cold war glory with surrounding Russia and China militarily. They want China and Russia and India to continue funding U.S. military buildups around their own countries through a system of petro dollar recycling in place since the 1970s, but it doesn't appear feasible in the long run. The vicious empire is running out of time and credibility. They know that their high tech militaries can not win against even the most desperately poor and backwards nations of people, like Afghans. What they will continue doing is funding and supporting right wing extremists and militant Islam as a way of destabilizing countries they are interested in corrupting, indebting, and controlling by way of marauding international capital. They are reduced to bluffing and bullying small and defenseless nations to gain street cred that is hanging by a thread today.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Here is a map of the region.  I am not sure that air power will be much good particularly in the sparsely populated north. In Libya they had an army to bomb not an agile guerrilla force

 

http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/map/mali_map.htm

Fidel

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Here is a map of the region.  I am not sure that air power will be much good particularly in the sparsely populated north. In Libya they had an army to bomb not an agile guerrilla force.

Someone, I think it was Former Soldier, posted an article describing how imperialism`s military goals are not always to bomb a country into submission for the purpose of invasion, occupying and takeover. And I`ve read it elsewhere that by aerial bombing the goal is oftentimes simply to destroy valuable infrastructure as a way of retarding progress. It`s a strategy of the newer disaster capitalism and wiping the slate clean. Regime-friendly corporations winning lucrative taxpayer-funded contracts to rebuild Iraq without legitimate bids are an example. Corporate welfare capitalism and closed economy Keynesian-militarism has many faces. They basically copied Nazi Germany`s model for Keynesian-militarism and globalized it.

Guerillas and anyone else they can recruit to play the role of enemies are part of the plan since the Sovs stabbed them in the backs and ceded the cold war by 1989. They are still fighting "Al Qaeda" (who were formerly rabidly anticommunist "freedom fighters" and heroic warriors for Allah as recently as 1992) while, and at the same time, funding and arming the same invisible army of darkness which doth not exist. Charade they are. Conspiracy theory is just code for the unspeakable truth, and their lapdog newz media play right along.

To sum it up, this is colder war baloney. The NDP didnt have the manpower or resources to counter the right wing propaganda then, and they still don't. That is partly to mostly why they voted to disallow military flights over Libya which the Gladio Gang promptly violated themselves with airstrikes on defenseless women and children and valuable infrastructure. The NDP's vote meant absolutely nothing to NATO terrorists who would have done what they did regardless.

I actually received an email reply from Jack stating that the NDP would not be supporting long-term military occupation of Libya. Since formation of the UN and Nuremberg trials, the international community is obligated to condemn any and all reports of countries attacking their own people regardless of how accurate the reports are. Moscow and beijing have since called them liars and perps of false flag terror. Like I said before, the Gladio Gang is overextended on their foreign relations capital with these blatant military aggressions since arming/funding the Mujahideen and drug barons in Afghanistan and bombing Yugoslavia to smithereens after deliberately transforming Bosnia into a hangout for Qaeda and militant Islam.

NDPP

No matter how much some here may wish to decouple the NDP from their unanimous endorsement of  NATO's  'No Fly Zone' slaoughterfest, the contention that the result was somehow not known by all the cognoscenti is unsupportable. Furthermore, there was never any outrage or regret expressed by the ndp warparty afterwards, but hearty, ringing praise for our military's participation. Please stop trying to convince us they didn't know what they were up to. They did. And did it anyway. Mali is the same.

NDPP

Civilian Casualties From French Air Strikes Mounting in Mali (and vid)

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/01/27/285802/civilian-casualties-from...

 

Tinariwen And The Roots of Tuareg Rebellion (and vid)

http://warincontext.org/2013/01/21/tinariwen-and-the-roots-of-tuareg-reb...

"The band Tinariwen and its members sing and talk about the first Tuareg rebellion which began shortly after Mali gained independence from French rule.

 

How Washington Helped Foster the Islamist Uprising in Mali

http://newint.org/features/2012/12/01/us-terrorism-sahara/

"The impact of Washington's machinations on the peoples of the Sahara-Sahel has been devastating..."

NDPP

Mali Conflict: French and Malian Troops Move on Timbuktu

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21218003

"French-led forces in Mali are advancing on the key northern city of Timbuktu.."

Fidel

NDPP wrote:

No matter how much some here may wish to decouple the NDP from their unanimous endorsement of  NATO's  'No Fly Zone' slaoughterfest, the contention that the result was somehow not known by all the cognoscenti is unsupportable. Furthermore, there was never any outrage or regret expressed by the ndp warparty afterwards, but hearty, ringing praise for our military's participation. Please stop trying to convince us they didn't know what they were up to. They did. And did it anyway. Mali is the same.

What if it is 1997, and there are reports of a genocide in progress in the Congo? Are you going to speak out against it  or sit idly by for months and wait for official confirmation?

The NDP can't stand up in Parliament and start talking about Gladio terrorism or western support for proxy armies or any of the cold war history as evidence that it is probably ongoing.

The Mujahideen were such good guys, remember? That's just some of what Canadiana and Americans were propagandized into believing by lapdog newz media over the years. Neither you, nor the NDP, nor a perfect party standing on principles shared by some 10% of the voting public would win that propaganda battle.

Christ, we don't even have a consensus on who perp'd 9/11 never mind the ongoing NATO Gladios. You can be sure that some babblers still don't believe the U.S.-led NATO could possibly be so evil as to murder 3000 white people on 9/11/01. How would you possibly believe that you could convince even a phony majority of Canadians of the cold truth about NATO's ongoing terror campaigns around the world? Here is a hint: WHen they tell you it's conspiracy theory, they will not understand that conspiracy is code for the unspeakable truth.

If you are like very many on the left who still believe Elvis bin Laden orchestrated 9/11, then it will surely be just a matter of time before 19 or so desperately poor Malians and Libyans will travel to America to gain revenge on 3000 white people in a trade tower in some bizarre act of "revenge." I can see it all now, ruthless "Qaeda"  mercenaries and killers for hire trained by the US Military and British SAS since the 1980s,  band together to fight for social justice  against their own long-time employers. Because rabid anti-communists and murderous opportunists will always bite the hand that feeds them before switching allegiance to social democratic values. Yeah right. You won't see any political party including Marxists or even the precious Quebec Solidaire telling it like it is and taking on the Gladio Gang and their globalized executive death squads. And I'm sorry but you won't see the Gladio Gang falling on their swords the same as youre demanding that the NDP do.  Not soon. This is just an online forum not the halls of electoral power - their halls of power.

"It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen."


NDPP

France Seeks to Plunder Mali (and vid)

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/01/27/285876/french-media-blackout-in...

"Mali's situation is complex and required a political not military solution, but France now has a media blackout as it eyes Malian gold and oil..."

NDPP

Mali Islamists Torch Timbuktu Library Ahead of French Advance

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/01/28/mali-french-forces-timbukt...

Al CIA-DUH hard at work for NATO/Uncle Sam

 

Mali Conflict Rewriting the UN's Best Made Plans

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21138107

"The idea was to split the Tuareg rebels from foreign terrorist groups by addressing the political and economic grievances that had fuelled their rebellion..."

 

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

CBC: Canadian special forces on the ground in Mali.

Canadian special forces are on the ground inside the troubled West African country of Mali to protect Canadian assets there, CBC News has learned.

Slumberjack

There's little difference between this and the grocery store security guard, or the mall cop. In this case, the protection of corporate assets is remunerated through taxation and program spending instead of being passed along to the consumer as inflation, and they're also likely applying slightly different rules of engagement in Mali than what we'd normally encounter here at the grocery store. Once all the idealism is stripped away to its naked essence, this is what police and military forces are in Canada and elsewhere, mercenaries for capitalism. In this country we have the misfortune of there being quite a broad representation of anti-imperialist predicates, with no corresponding mouth at the federal political level through which their concerns might be sounded from. We live in a country where the cop, the soldier, the special operations assaulter, the politician, and the media each accept in turn a series of tasks to accomplish within an overarching capitalist framework. The only visible difference is in the wide assortment of uniforms and accoutrements they all come with, such as a microphones, teleprompters, guns, warplanes, public relations, etc.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

"...to protect Canadian assets" was a bit of a giveaway, no? Tongue out

NDPP

Boom Boom wrote:

CBC: Canadian special forces on the ground in Mali.

Canadian special forces are on the ground inside the troubled West African country of Mali to protect Canadian assets there, CBC News has learned.

"A release from Fantino's office Monday billed the talks as adressing 'the financial, logistical and capacity-building needs of both the Malian forces and the African-led International Support Mission in Mali.

Asked what he wanted to see from Fantino's attendance at the conference, Mulcair told Solomon that Mali is one of the countries where Canada has been engaged historically, and lamented what he said was the Conservative's decision to withdraw from Africa recently. He called the government's decision to support French forces in Mali 'the right thing to do.'

Canada suspended its international development assistance to Mali following a coup in the country last spring..."

 

Soldiers Trained By Canadian Special Forces Hunted, Tortured in Mali After Failed Coup  -  by David Pugliese

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/01/27/soldiers-trained-by-canadian-spe...

"Paratroopers trained by special forces based in Canada were behind a failed counter-coup in Mali last year to bring back a democratically elected government, but may have been hunted down and killed by the country's military.

A report by a human rights group says some of the soldiers captured were forced at gunpoint to have sex with each other. 'Fabric was stuffed in their mouths before the abuse to stifle their screams,' the report from Human Rights Watch stated. Others were beaten. Witnesses said around 20 of the soldiers were seen after the coup being led away, never to be found again."

Mr Mulcair will be happy to know Canada is now supporting the torturers and killers of the Malian military junta, who are merrily executing Tuareg tribals now exposed to their ternder mercies by France and the West's newest imperialist adventure. 'The right thing to do", eh?

NDP=No Difference Party.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

Yeah, I heard Mulcair on P&P tonight saying "it was the right thing to do" and went WTF??? Frown

Seems so far the NDP is reasonably okay on domestic policy, but a tremendous fail on foreign matters.

 

Slumberjack

These are not 'foreign' matters, because the corrupted hearts and minds capable of such decisions live among us.

Slumberjack

Social democracy isn’t what it used to be, or maybe today it is precisely what it was all along, in that it was never anything more than a glorified fig leaf providing scant coverage and support for a full on, raging obscenity.

DaveW

bravo to Mulcair,

funny watching, on the one hand, the Malian crowds cheer as troops entered Timbuktou yesterday and all the long faces above, here in North America ...

Unionist

We need more cheerleaders for imperialism here. Gets so gloomy with just long faces. By the way, when's the anniversary of Canada's entry into WWI? I'm thinking of organizing a parade. It's not every day you get to die and kill for democracy, eh?

Slumberjack

No long faces here.  My assessment indicates there is quite enough evidence on record to remove even the thickest scales from the eyes of the truly anti-imperialist elements within the NDP, if any still remain, and that those who continue in their support for this party are likely, and have been all along, to set sail aboard any old bucket that will float their own ambitions, at any cost.

MegB

Boom Boom wrote:

"...to protect Canadian assets" was a bit of a giveaway, no? Tongue out

Barrick Gold (Chaired by Canadian "philanthropist" Peter Munk) owns a 70+% interest in African Barrick, highly lucrative gold mining operations in Tanzania, Kenya and, surprise surprise, Mali. Share prices have dropped significantly since the French decided to pay a visit, and no doubt Barrick is applying considerable pressure to the Feds and the opposition to keep their mining operations in Mali out of French hands. Such is the power and greed that defines Western imperialism.

Protecting Canadian assets indeed.

DaveW wrote:

bravo to Mulcair,

funny watching, on the one hand, the Malian crowds cheer as troops entered Timbuktou yesterday and all the long faces above, here in North America ...

Maybe you haven't been paying attention to events in Libya, Afghanistan and Iraq over the past few years. Those cheers don't last long, and it never turns out well for the non-combatants.

DaveW, allow me to quote from babble policy:

"rabble.ca embraces a pro-human rights, pro-feminist, anti-racist, queer-positive, anti-imperialist and pro-labour stance, and as such encourages discussions which develop and expand progressive thought."

 

clambake

DaveW might not believe this is an imperialist mission. Does that mean he can't take a supportive stance? Not that I agree with it, however.

Unionist

clambake wrote:

DaveW might not believe this is an imperialist mission. Does that mean he can't take a supportive stance? Not that I agree with it, however.

He has taken a supportive stance. He has found crowds in Africa cheering on French and Canadian military missions, and he is supporting them. Tune in next week to learn which other cheering crowds he will support.

What worries me the most is the nagging feeling that DaveW's primary interest isn't really the needs of the people of Mali to live in peace, security, freedom - rather, it's to defend Mulcair's NDP, and then draw his conclusions accordingly. Had Mulcair stood up to condemn French and Canadian military interference in Mali, I'll bet you far more money than I have that some people here would have applauded that stand (as would I).

That shows the terrible responsibility lying on the shoulders of a party like the NDP. When it betrays, it drags a whole lot of well-meaning people down the drain with it.

 

6079_Smith_W

Yes, I remember the discussions here on Libya, and how many of the arguments regarding the western powers, the insurgents and Khadaffi all seemed to fade to black and white.

For that matter, I also remember similar arguments regarding the motives of supporters of the Arab Spring which were rightly called as bullshit on this site. So the line on what is and is not imperialist isn't all that clear.

I don't know all that much about this situation, but my gut says our involvement, and that of the Europeans is not a good thing, and likely being done primarily for corporate and western political interests. On the other hand, I can appreciate that there are many on the ground there who have a very different perspective, and I'm glad that at least DaveW mentioned it.

Just as the real world is not black and white, complex political and social systems can't just up and turn on a dime. Or at the very least, when they are forced to do so there is often way more misery and suffering as a result.

So sorry, I don't pretend to have the single right answer to this one. But I don't see anything wrong with pointing out some of the differences in the colours we are seeing.

 

MegB

Countries don't send troops into other countries unless it is to their own benefit.  As we've seen time and time again, so-called humanitarian missions invariably end up taking out a swath of the population they're supposedly protecting, while exploiting the inevitable opportunity to help "rebuild" (ie., open up shop).

Mali has things that Canada and France want. Both countries have economic interests in Mali that provide powerful motivation to secure resource extraction operations.  It would be naive to assume that they're there to assist the people of Mali.

Mulcair's position is, quite simply, wrong. Very disappointing.

NDPP

US Planning Drone Base in Northwest Africa: Officials

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/01/29/286105/us-eying-drone-base-in-n...

"This is directly related to the Mali mission, but it could also give AFRICOM a more enduring presence for ISR (Intelligence, surveillance and reconnaisance),' one US official said on Sunday

 

Mali's North Faces A New Fear

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/spotlight/mali/2013/01/2013124192502020...

"...with growing evidence of reprisal killings and raids targeting Tuareg and Arabs based on their ethnicity, whole communities now hacve something new to fear - collective punishment. Tuareg and Arab civilians are terrified of being hunted down as their community suffers collective punishment for its perceived support for the armed groups."

 

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

CBC either last night or Sunday emphasized the vast gold deposits in Mali. I though oil was the draw. Foot in mouth

Unionist

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Yes, I remember the discussions here on Libya, and how many of the arguments regarding the western powers, the insurgents and Khadaffi all seemed to fade to black and white.

For that matter, I also remember similar arguments regarding the motives of supporters of the Arab Spring which were rightly called as bullshit on this site. So the line on what is and is not imperialist isn't all that clear.

I don't know all that much about this situation, but my gut says our involvement, and that of the Europeans is not a good thing, and likely being done primarily for corporate and western political interests. On the other hand, I can appreciate that there are many on the ground there who have a very different perspective, and I'm glad that at least DaveW mentioned it.

Just as the real world is not black and white, complex political and social systems can't just up and turn on a dime. Or at the very least, when they are forced to do so there is often way more misery and suffering as a result.

So sorry, I don't pretend to have the single right answer to this one. But I don't see anything wrong with pointing out some of the differences in the colours we are seeing.

Ah yes, we White Christian Civilized Westerners must calmly debate every situation in the world, because it's all so confusing and complicated. And let's hear from "those on the ground" (code word for the soldier boys, whose opinion we should follow, not the other way around).

Then, when our debate is over, we invade. Or not. But make no mistake. It's our decision. And sending troops and equipment to bomb and kill isn't a matter of "black and white". There are nuances so deep that the deepest pile of shit will pale, ashamed, in comparison.

It's shit like post #83 which can justify any monstrous crime. It's how they justified, to themselves, sending tens of thousands of Canadian youth to die fighting against the Kaiser. It's not black and white. Every case is different, to be judged on its merits. Oh... and we can condemn the monstrosities of the past, without feeling the slightest compunction to point the finger at our war crimes of the present. That's the White Christian Civilized way.

 

6079_Smith_W

@ Rebecca

I agree on motive, and I agree on Mulcair.

On the other hand, we're not just dealing with a situation involving imperialists and the people of Mali. And I don't believe the theory that this is just a piece of CIA theatre.

If I can be allowed a black and white statement of my own I think there is some truth to the notion that if you break it you are responsible for it, so I expect that on the ground there were certainly some people who expected some support from the French, regardless of their ulterior motive.

Yes things would be far better if the people of Mali were truly sovreign and in control of their own affairs. If they were this probably would not be happening. But until they have that on their own terms I can see that sometimes some good can come from evil.

6079_Smith_W

And Unionist. I'm not the one arguing that the real issue here is the fortunes of the NDP, speaking of civilized westerners and their motives.

NDPP

Malian, French Forces Retake Timbuktu From Islamists

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/01/29/mali-fighting-timbuktu-kid...

"The Tuareg movement said on their website that it was ready to work with French troops and fight terror organizations. However, it said it would refuse to allow Malian soldiers in Kidal, and the other towns under its control in northwestern Mali, following allegations that the troops killed civilians suspected of having links to the Islamists.

It said it 'decided to retake these localities with all urgency to assure the security of the belongings and more particularly of people, because of the grave danger their lives faced with the return of the Malian army, marching in the footsteps of the French army."

NDPP

Zero Dark Mali  -  by Pepe Escobar

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/OA26Ak02.html

"For now we have the spectacle of Paris involved in the 'cleansing' of Mali from not only weaponized Islamists - extraneous to Mali culture - but also indigenous weaponized Tuaregs with legitimate grievances.

The master plan is to support an absolutely corrupt regime in Bamako, led by a military coup plotter, the Fort Benning -trained Captain Amadou Sanogo.

This is the meat of the matter of the new mission civilsatrice, protected by a convenient UN-enabled smokescreen..."

and an NDP leader in support of 'the right thing to do'.

 

Unionist

6079_Smith_W wrote:

On the other hand, we're not just dealing with a situation involving imperialists and the people of Mali.

Should Canada assist French intervention, or intervene on its own account, or neither? Forget about how complicated the "situation" is.

Quote:
And I don't believe the theory that this is just a piece of CIA theatre.

No, but inventing a straw man, then beating it to the ground, is salubrious when other arguments fail.

Quote:
If I can be allowed a black and white statement of my own I think there is some truth to the notion that if you break it you are responsible for it, so I expect that on the ground there were certainly some people who expected some support from the French, regardless of their ulterior motive.

On the ground - or in the ground?

Remember when Viet Nam invaded Cambodia in 1978? And then China invaded Viet Nam in 1979? Do you regret that France and the U.S. neglected to intervene both times - after all, they "broke it"? No sense of moral responsibility, eh?

Quote:
Yes things would be far better if the people of Mali were truly sovreign and in control of their own affairs. If they were this probably would not be happening. But until they have that on their own terms I can see that sometimes some good can come from evil.

Translation for simple folk: Until those Malians grow up, the adults will have to look after their best interests.

 

6079_Smith_W

Unionist, I said none of those things, particularly that shit about growing up. On the other hand, the CIA thing was floated, if you care to look back.

And your first statement is a perfect example of that black and white thing I was talking about. Fact is, I agree with you on the basic question.

(edit)

In fact, I answered it already.

On the other hand, I can understand that some people over there were glad to see some intervention. So, while not excusing it, I think it is entirely in order to acknowledge that. Better than pretending it didn't happen.

 

Unionist

6079_Smith_W wrote:

 

On the other hand, I can understand that some people over there were glad to see some intervention. So, while not excusing it, I think it is entirely in order to acknowledge that. Better than pretending it didn't happen.

 

I'm not pretending it didn't happen. Did you see me deny that it happened? It happened in Iraq, too. It happened in Afghanistan. And Vietnam. It also happened in several countries that Hitler invaded.

But no one here will hail the invasion or occupation of World War II, or Vietnam, or of Iraq, or (I don't think) of Afghanistan. They're so good and clever after the fact. It's only the present and future that they find oh-so-confusing.

My point was simpler. We must call out those who claim to be "progressive" and who cheer on the invaders - even if they find some people "on the ground" to cheer along with.

 

6079_Smith_W

*shakes head*

Sorry.... I don't agree that WE must troop off in a gang and be of one mind about this any more than we must be in absolute conformity about anything.

At least I'm not jumping on that fucking bandwagon.

Can we back off a bit? I am just saying that if the rest of us can be allowed all this high rhetoric I don't think DaveW was all that out of line. Again... I'm glad he said it.

 

 

Fidel

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Unionist, I said none of those things, particularly that shit about growing up. On the other hand, the CIA thing was floated, if you care to look back.

They won't care to look back, believe me. The NDP and Mulcair are wrong and are conveniently neglecting to point out that the Gladio Gang, sometimes known as the U.S.-led heavily armed NATO countries, are still on about "Al Qaeda" creating an arc of instability from Northern Africa to the Mid East and Central Asia.

But sooner than make an argument for the NDP to run with in Parliament, they simply back off and tell us that which is obvious - that the Gladio Gang with France taking the lead this time is bent on a resource grab in Mali. You'll notice they steer well clear of the "Al Qaeda" ruse. Back seat drivers always have 20-20 hindsight and intuition. What they are demanding without realizing it is for NDP to fall on their sword in Parliament and pave the way for either of the two same-same old line colonial administrative parties in 2015. Then we'll see some bootlicking in Ottawa for sure.

Fidel

The CIA and Gladio helper nations are the ones floating "Al Qaeda in Mali" not any of us. Get it straight.

If you people can't deal with the ruse that the invisible army of darkness is there in Mali and representing a threat to "peace and democracy", how do you expect the NDP to counter the ultra right wing propaganda in Parliament? Speak up now or forever hold your peace. Forget about taking mere potshots at Mulcair and the NDP - this is your chance to shine.

"crickets"

Unionist

We've been through this before. You have to oppose imperialism when we're doing the crime - not after the passage of time.

Fidel, on February 28, 2006, to unionist wrote:

And we're glad you're in the minority of opinions suggesting that Afghani's should be left to their own devices. Look at their child poverty, infant mortality and literacy rates. This is a country that needs help with basic abilities to cope and finding its place in the 21st century.

You people know nothing about the situation over there, just that they should be abandoned.

I'm ashamed that you're a Canadian and saying we have no responsibility as part of a UN effort to help them in a time of need. You've just made my ignore list.

That was 7 months before the NDP convention called for an immediate and safe withdrawal of troops. We can do better than that this time. We can be the voices that call on the NDP to correct its course - rather than those who cheer and find excuses as it swirls headfirst down the toilet.

 

Fidel

Unionist wrote:
Is there no room to tell Mulcair to take the same stand on Mali that we took (5 years late) on Afghanistan? Maybe remind him that even after all the Taliban Jack crap, the NDP still miraculously managed to become official opposition? Or would that be a waste of breath?

At first glance that appears to be a good point.  And if you remember all people could talk about, no thanks to lapdog newz media and the Harpers,  was Jack advocating talking to the Taliban. Period. The truth was that Jack was demanding they talk not only to the Taliban but to ALL of the democratically elected opposition in Afghanistan not just the Taliban representing a mere one-fifth of the quote insurgency.

But this time it is not the Taliban in Mali - it is that invisible army of darkness, that one which all of us knows without saying, does not exist. The Gladio Gang are looking like heroes for helping Malians get rid of a bunch of mercenaries and extremists funded and armed by U.S. taxpayers, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan etc.

Quote:
I'm not very hopeful. They horsewhipped a whole caucus of new enthusiastic MPs into supporting war crimes in Libya.

The NDP supported a no-fly zone over Libya. That was all. You can conflate that into the NDP supporting war crimes all you want, but proving it is another thing altogether. The NDP's support for a no-fly zone over Libya came at a time when the NDP's leader was dying of cancer, and none of us knew then just what was happening in Libya. lapdog newz media certainly were't saying anything about the Coming Oil War with "Al Qa'eda" then.

It was a gallant effort, Unionist. But I think our head vicious toadies on the government side would have a field day explaining to you how Al Qaeda are a global terrorist threat cut from the same cloth as them who orchestrated 9/11. They hate Americans and all infidels for their many freedoms, remember?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

DaveW wrote:

bravo to Mulcair,

funny watching, on the one hand, the Malian crowds cheer as troops entered Timbuktou yesterday and all the long faces above, here in North America ...

Quote:

Looters crowd to get into a shop in Timbuktu. Photograph: Eric Feferberg/AFP/Getty Images

Simmering ethnic tensions boiled over in Mali on Tuesday as the army hunted down suspected Islamist fighters and residents took revenge on shops belonging to the Tuareg and Arab minorities.

Reports from the Saharan city of Timbuktu said dozens of residents had attacked property owned by Tuareg and Arab traders whom they suspected of collaborating with the rebels. The al-Qaida-allied fighters evacuated the town last week as French and Malian forces closed in.

There were fears that the Tuareg civilians could now be caught up in a bloody backlash, both from angry neighbours and from the army.

Malian soldiers were deployed in Timbuktu on Tuesday but made little effort to stop widespread ethnic-based looting.

Tuareg rebels have waged an on-off secessionist war for decades against the Mali government in Bamako. The secular Tuareg nationalist MNLA militia has been fighting for an independent republic, but has recently said it supports France's military intervention.

Another Islamist group, however, Ansar Dine, includes many Tuareg fighters, and spearheaded last year's audacious drive by the rebels to capture Mali's north. It is closely allied with al-Qaida in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM). Its leader, Iyad Ag Ghali, is Tuareg.

Consequently, many Malians now blame the Tuareg for the Islamist capture last year of the northern towns of Gao, Kidal and Timbuktu.

"They are traitors," Amadu Traore, an English teacher from the town of Youwarou, near Timbuktu, said on Tuesday, when asked what he thought of the Tuareg. He added: "They are also racists. They have lighter skins than us. They look down on us black Africans."

Traore claimed that the nomadic Tuareg – who make up 11% of the population in the north – were perennially dissatisfied and would never accept the authority of the Mali state. "They have been fighting for independence since colonial times," he said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/29/ethnic-tensions-mali-troops-...

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