Mackenzie Pipeline Gets Thumbs Up
Mackenzie Pipeline Gets Thumbs Up
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/mackenzie-pipeline-get...
more ecocide- as -genocide for Indigenous peoples and lands
Comments
Interesting that this news comes out shortly after a recent previous announcement which sounded like it wasn't going to go ahead.
Economics, politics chill Arctic pipeline dreams
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5B80L920091209
So a multi billion dollar project, one for which there has been extensive public consultation, and will bring billions into the NWT economy comes along and all you can be is negative. What is it that you hate so much? Go to these communities and ask them if they would like fewer roads, fewer flights, fewer jobs, go ask them, ive lived there, mostly they want the same things that I or any other 'settler' wants, maybe thats what bothers you the most.
The big money boys have decided it's going ahead - get used to it.
Now on the positive side there should be lots of jobs. 
NO!!! This pipeline must not be built!!
The spokesman for the Sierra Club pointed out that "the Mackenzie Valley Pipeline will just be bringing northern natural gas to be used in Tar Sands operations". Good point!! Why bother?
The oil and gas people [i.e. my brother, the fossil fool] cry about "dwindling supply of gas for our pipelines", and that is why we need to build this collosus of a pipeline. Well shucks, just quit burning it up in the tar sands [turning clean energy into dirty bitumen oil] and the rest of your customers, and the pipelines, will have lots.
Didja Know? > the tar sands eats up one-third of Alberta's total natural gas production!! {and I believe they don't have to pay royalties on that gas when it is used in a process like that].
The cost of this project will be more than the $15 or $20 Billion they say it will cost. Imagine if that money was somehow magically used "in the most beneficial way for Canadians" - we could put up wind and tidal generation that would produce gobs of cheap electricity for 50 years... without emissions.
This project will increase Canada's CO2 emissions, and if there is a cost to that, it just adds up to more foolishness on how Canada's resources and money are used. Even the government is going to be kicking in on this pipeline.
Now on the positive side there should be lots of jobs.
There will be jobs and spin-offs during the construction phase, which is very brief, but virtually no permanent jobs.
joey ramone, thanks for your 8:43am post... not sure how some of the racially correct folks here at babble are going to integrate that info... personally i think it is unfortunate it's being built and agree with noah scopes concerns... clearly economic decisions dominate enviromental ones and our politicians are fully supportive of this continued approach...
joey ramone, thanks for your 8:43am post... not sure how some of the racially correct folks here at babble are going to integrate that info...
sandstone, you clearly have no idea what joey ramone does. I strongly suggest you cease making these kinds of statements.
maysie, what was it that i said that so offended you?? joey ramone is saying something that questions nodifferencepar's comment ... "more ecocide- as -genocide for Indigenous peoples and lands"
maysie, i don't remember saying i knew ""what joey ramone does."" perhaps you'd like to tell me why it matters...
Never let the facts stand in the way of your uninformed opinion.
For those of you who wish to inform yourselves, Alternatives North is a left-leaning group of academics and interested parties in the NWT.
http://www.alternativesnorth.ca/
They have commissioned a report on the socio-economic impact of the project: http://www.alternativesnorth.ca/pdf/MGPReportFinalOct13.pdf Below is one isolated aspect of a very comprehensive report.
Base Case GLJ:this is the full production Base Case as identified in the Gilbert Laustsen and Jung
Associates Ltd. Study (GLJ Study) prepared for Imperial Oil in 2004. After-tax cash flows to field producers
in this case are estimated at $68.0 billion over the 45 year life of the Pipeline life, earning an annual after-tax
Internal Rate of Return of 26.6% (30.7% if sunk investment costs are excluded).
Total taxes (royalties, field income taxes and pipeline income taxes) accruing to Governments reach $86.8
billion over the 45 years of operation, of which $71.3 billion would go to the Federal Government and the
remaining $15.5 billion to the Government of the NWT. In real dollar terms ($2003), the Federal
Government would receive on average $824 million per annum and the GNWT $172 million per year.
The federal royalty regime (royalties are NOT taxes) in the north is a joke. They essentially give public resources away to multi-national oil companies and mining companies for virtually nothing - the royalties are far lower than in neighbouring jurisdictions such as Alberta and Alaska. The Government of the NWT is even worse. They have promised that if public lands and resources are devolved to them they will actually lower the already pathetic royalty rate.
Check out this article on how the north is plundered for hyper-profits: http://www.carc.org/2005/royalties%20and%20hyper-profits%2005.12.15.pdf
Interesting report. The problem in the North has always been the fact that Ottawa Mandarins cut deals northerners have to live with on the basis of what is good for Ottawa Mandarins, not what is good for the North.
Much of the contention over this project relates to decades of neglect by Ottawa of the social and infrastructure deficits in the Northern Territories.
joey ramone is saying something that questions nodifferencepar's comment ... "more ecocide- as -genocide for Indigenous peoples and lands"
Actually I wasn't challenging or supporting the comment by nodifferencepar. I was simply pointing out that the Mackenzie Gas Project has the eager support of most First Nations Chiefs in the NWT, and the support of Metis and Inuit leaders. These local elites are, for the most part, fully coopted partners (collaborators if you prefer) in the colonization and plunder of the north. There will be little or no resistance to the pipeline project from the Dene, Metis and Inuit because their leaders have already bought into it, literally.
joey ramone comment "This may or may not be true..." which was in respone to "more ecocide- as -genocide for Indigenous peoples and lands"...
That was in respect to whether or not the mining practises were of worse harm to peoples than the pipeline.
The environmental impact of the pipeline itself will be relatively minor, compared to the impacts of mining, but the impacts don't stop there. The pipeline will foster an explosion of petroleum exploration, feeder pipelines and all kinds of other industrial developments in parts of the NWT that are still relatively pristine. Worse, it is clear that the "clean natural gas" that will flow through the Mackenzie pipeline will be primarily used to fuel the extraction of filthy oil from the Alberta tar pits. Using natural gas for such nonsense (which is only viable because of lots of government subsidies) has been compared to "composting caviar". Here's another Cizek article with some valuable context for those who want to understand the implications of the big pipeline: http://oilsandstruth.org/buying-green-movement-scouring-scum-and-tar-bot...
I thought Ottawa has already said no to any federal funding. I suppose a little chat with the natural gas/oil lobbyists could convince Steevie to change his mind.
Federal help urged to save pipeline
http://www.edmontonsun.com/money/2010/01/02/12324096-sun.html
The feds have turned down Imperialist Oil's latest request for additional billions in subsidies for the pipeline. Lots of corporate welfare "incentive funding" has already been doled out, including special low royalty rates, millions for Imperial's partners the Aboriginal Pipeline Group and $500 million in funding to address impacts of the projects on northern communities.
The environmental impact of the pipeline itself will be relatively minor, compared to the impacts of mining, but the impacts don't stop there. The pipeline will foster an explosion of petroleum exploration, feeder pipelines and all kinds of other industrial developments in parts of the NWT that are still relatively pristine. Worse, it is clear that the "clean natural gas" that will flow through the Mackenzie pipeline will be primarily used to fuel the extraction of filthy oil from the Alberta tar pits. Using natural gas for such nonsense (which is only viable because of lots of government subsidies) has been compared to "composting caviar". Here's another Cizek article with some valuable context for those who want to understand the implications of the big pipeline: http://oilsandstruth.org/buying-green-movement-scouring-scum-and-tar-bot...
Hmmm...... So, in fact, Joey, you are just another agendamonger using whatever technical sources to support your ideological position rather than an unbiased observer.
Linking the "tar pits" to Mackenzie gas is a disengenuous ploy to furthur a political/ideological agenda and a favorite of the ecoloons that care only for political advantage, not the interests of the people of the North. In fact, there is a recently built 36 inch pipeline from the BC/Alberta border that services the area among other sources.
Mackenzies gas is a day late and a dollar short in this market as well.
Its certainly no secret no secret that aboriginal power brokers are just as self-serving as the rest of the decision-makers but to leverage this reality into a reason to deny progress is also using the people of the north to furthur an agenda.
The Mackenzie Gas Project should be built or not be built on its own merits and the decision to proceed should come from the northerners affected, not Ottawa Mandarins who have tax revenue rather than the benefit of northerners at heart. The socio-economic concerns of the population should be addressed based on their concerns having equal weight to the concerns of southerners for similar infrastructure and services, not based on whether or not equal access to services and infrastructure in the north will increase government revenues from industry.
You are just another agenda-monger USING the people of the north for ideological advantage without any concern for their benefit.
The Mackenzie Gas Project should be built or not be built on its own merits and the decision to proceed should come from the northerners affected, not Ottawa Mandarins who have tax revenue rather than the benefit of northerners at heart.
I agree with this, except for your naive comment that "Ottawa Mandarins" are motivated by a concern to bring in more tax revenue. That's nonsense - Ottawa decision makers have consistently shown that their interests are in promoting the interests of the oil companies and mining companies in the north, not the interests or northerners or taxpayers. The pipeline, if built, will be massively subsidized by taxpayers while publicly owned gas is essentially given away to multi-national corporations raking in billions in profits.
You call me an "agenda-monger", but in fact I have not said that the pipeline should not be built. I have simply posted facts and well written and researched articles which provide important context for deciding whether it should be built or not, and whether Imperialist Oil should be subsidized by Canadian taxpayers to build it. You have posted nothing but empty rhetoric and name-calling.
As opposed to the oil/gas companies, their shareholders and other interested pary's, such as yourself, agenda mongering and using the people of the north for advantage?!
:rolleyes:
Get a grip!
I think I'd better go back to bed today. Babble feels like bizarro world. I thought it was safe to read here but too many triggers firing.
The Mackenzie Gas Project should be built or not be built on its own merits and the decision to proceed should come from the northerners affected, not Ottawa Mandarins who have tax revenue rather than the benefit of northerners at heart.
I agree with this, except for your naive comment that "Ottawa Mandarins" are motivated by a concern to bring in more tax revenue. That's nonsense - Ottawa decision makers have consistently shown that their interests are in promoting the interests of the oil companies and mining companies in the north, not the interests or northerners or taxpayers. The pipeline, if built, will be massively subsidized by taxpayers while publicly owned gas is essentially given away to multi-national corporations raking in billions in profits.
You call me an "agenda-monger", but in fact I have not said that the pipeline should not be built. I have simply posted facts and well written and researched articles which provide important context for deciding whether it should be built or not, and whether Imperialist Oil should be subsidized by Canadian taxpayers to build it. You have posted nothing but empty rhetoric and name-calling.
Linking the MGP to the "tar pits" is agenda-mongering, not "simply posting facts and well written and researched articles.
Tax revenues or promoting the interests of industry is mere hair splitting as the fact remains that ottawa mandarins have no interestin furthuring the interests of northerners.
I also do not take a position on whether or not this project should be built and "simply posted facts and well written and researched" reports. The Alternatives North site provides many different articles and reports from a progressive perspective.
What 'name calling' are you taking offense at?
Read the articles and do a little research. It's quite clear that the Beaufort gas that will flow through the MGP is going to the tar pits. Imperialist Oil and Suncor no longer even deny it.
I would not say that whether Ottawa's decision making is based on what will generate more tax revenue or will promote the interests of Imperialist Oil, Suncor et al is mere "hair splitting". If you fail to understand how the interests of oil company owners and northern elites intersect, and how they combine to shape decision making, you will not understand the forces promoting this project. It is naive to simply see this as Ottawa vs. northerners when the northern elites are virtually all on the same side as the oil companies.
Why wouldn't it go to the Alberta tarsands to help with the oil extraction, just the same way as the natural gas field in the Fort Nelson area is going to go to the tarsands in Alberta? Of course, at least some of it will go there. Anyone looking at a map can see that is gonna happen.
Just click on the map on this website to plainly see that.
http://www.mackenziegasproject.com/theProject/overview/index.html
This project has been in the works for decades: from the original Berger Report, and the initial $2 billion (now $16+ billion) estimate (with, I believe, most First Nations communities onboard-- and a recommendation for a moratorium on future expansion, while land-use issues of the Sahtu and Dehcho nations are settled) to that of today's Joint Rewiew Panel (which also recommends that the gas be used to eliminate the use of coal, rather than be used in the tar sands).
Besides, a prospective softening of both natural gas prices (and the permafrost), together with competition from shale mining (which appears to present even greater, negative impacts on the environment, through a process called "fracking") may yet preclude its development.
The Madness of Rome:
http://www.energybulletin.net/51071
"the industrial way of life based on endless growth is not only unsustainable, it is a suicide machine. But even when presented with this evidence and the myriad examples of the damage done to land and water, cultures and peoples, and ourselves--the very people this machine is purported to be operating for, no politician or banker or other authority within this system has the courage to even acknowledge this dilemma we find ourselves squarely within..
It is clear that unless each of us undertakes the steps to simplify and relocalize, individually, in households, neighborhoods, communities, and as a species, that no one else will stop the madness. The parallel culture must be aggressively pursued within the framework of the growth culture as a moral mission.
No election will bring a saviour to power, no epiphany will take hold of a corporate leader, no idea or movement from the center of this culture will emerge to show us the way. Make your New year's resolution count for something in 2010."
I wonder if we have bombings along this pipeline as well once it gets going.
As opposed to the oil/gas companies, their shareholders and other interested pary's, such as yourself, agenda mongering and using the people of the north for advantage?!
:rolleyes:
Get a grip!
Here's my agenda: Let the people of the Mackenzie Valley decide for themselves whether or not they want this sort of development BUT do not link industrial development to northerners' entitlement to the same infrastructure and services that southerners take for granted.
The federal government needs to discharge their responsibility to all northerners for services such as clean water and sanitation, inadequate social housing and access to life enhancement programs period, not link these services to industrial advancements and tax revenue.
Industry is not responsible for these socio-economic concerns, INAC and the Catholic and Anglican churches are. If these entities had fulfilled even the recommendations of the Berger Commission, the people of the Mackenzie Valley would be able to withstand and prosper from industrial activity. As it is, they are still awaiting the training funding promised 30 years ago for the Norman Wells pipeline.
As far as the MGP goes, there is not enough gas 'behind pipe' to support the capital cost of the project and to this informed poster, the pipeline is putting the cart before the horse in order to spur exploration, not deliver existing gas to market. The Mackenzie Gas Project is an effort to open up the north to industrial development similar to the CPR or the rail line to Churchill or the Dempster Hwy to Inuvik.
The oil companies that back this project KNOW that they cannot profit from existing gas 'behind pipe', (gas ready for delivery) and will attempt to socialise the risk by offering future jobs and tax revenues as the carrot. What the oil companies neglect to mention, however, is the discovery of very light, sweet crude oil in the same Mackenzie Delta and inshore waters of the Beaufort Sea.
Read the articles and do a little research. It's quite clear that the Beaufort gas that will flow through the MGP is going to the tar pits. Imperialist Oil and Suncor no longer even deny it.
I would not say that whether Ottawa's decision making is based on what will generate more tax revenue or will promote the interests of Imperialist Oil, Suncor et al is mere "hair splitting". If you fail to understand how the interests of oil company owners and northern elites intersect, and how they combine to shape decision making, you will not understand the forces promoting this project. It is naive to simply see this as Ottawa vs. northerners when the northern elites are virtually all on the same side as the oil companies.
Mackenzies gas is a day late and a dollar short in this market as well.
Its certainly no secret no secret that aboriginal power brokers are just as self-serving as the rest of the decision-makers but to leverage this reality into a reason to deny progress is also using the people of the north to furthur an agenda.
My point, if understand it, is that the pipeline infrastructure is presently in place to supply all the gas the 'tar pits' require and that MGP gas will simply go into the system, not dedicated to the 'tar pits'.
To me, fulminating about 'tar pits' merely deflects the thread away from the real issue of northern self-determination and the real needs of the people toward another generic rant against ' the man'.
No time now, but I will present a perspective of how the elites will 'carpetbag' this project into another pillage, if allowed and how the project can advance with benefit accruing to the people of the Valley.
Even without linking the MGP to the tar pits there are plenty of reasons for concern. You say that northerners alone should decide whether or not the pipeline is built. I agree, yet we see northern elites (both Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal) siding with Imperialist Oil to lobby for more and more corporate welfare (paid by Canadian taxpayers) to support the project. This is not simply about making the MGP marginally viable - Imperial has clearly stated that they need to be gauranteed at least 15% - %20 return on their investment before they will build it. I'd like to see some market discipline brought to the northern petroleum industry, and other resource extraction industries for that matter.
Even without linking the MGP to the tar pits there are plenty of reasons for concern. You say that northerners alone should decide whether or not the pipeline is built. I agree, yet we see northern elites (both Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal) siding with Imperialist Oil to lobby for more and more corporate welfare (paid by Canadian taxpayers) to support the project. This is not simply about making the MGP marginally viable - Imperial has clearly stated that they need to be gauranteed at least 15% - %20 return on their investment before they will build it. I'd like to see some market discipline brought to the northern petroleum industry, and other resource extraction industries for that matter.
Agreed - took the words out of my mouth but you will notice that this topic languishes at 32 posts because the focus of interest is not the legitimate concerns of the people most affected by any resource development.
Once the frission of delight at railing about 'tar pits and 'corporate welfare' and 'socialising risk to privatise profit' ebbs, the majority of progressives (especially babblers) have no furthur interest. My grievance-mongering about linking every issue to 'tar pits' relates directly to the fact that no matter how progressive, comprehensive, unbiased and pertinent a source link is, none bother to read it unless it contains a smoking gun about 'tar'pits' to howl about.
This obsession with 'tar pits' blinds them to the fact that corporate interests are busily donning the 'green' sheeps clothing in Ontario to perpetrate a huge transfer of wealth from the power consumer to corporate profit via the 'clean' power subsidies promoted by the government of Ontario.
Its no different in Ontario than in the Mackenzie Valley. The name of the game is socialising riskand privatising profit. Its easier (and more profitable) to co-opt governments that only care about the next election by offering short-term political gain in exchange for future profit than to engage in legitimate negotiations that serve public as well as private interests in the development of public resources.
In the MV, the dichotomies of pipeline support consist of those who only want short-term profit and those who want to use this project to build a sustainable society. I believe that the locals must be given time and funding to prepare for development. If this pipeline is rammed through, ALL the jobs other than non-skilled two feet and a heart-beat positions WILL be taken by outsiders and the communities will have no chance to evolve into capable organisations that can cope with the social issues.
My opinion is that a minimum of 5 years (10 is better) is needed but the MV commercial interests that will profit from this project are in no mood to wait in order to allow the public weal to profit.
Billions for carbon extraction nothing for renewable resources makes this my problem not just a Northern decision. We live on the same planet and if my tax dollars are involved then I should have a say. If capitalism is such a good idea than let them take the risks not me and my grandchildren. Everyone needs jobs that don't destroy the planet not short term jobs building infrastructure to help increase the carbon load on the atmosphere.
End the subsidies and corporate welfare and this project will almost certainly die. Likewise for the tar pits.
We mostly agree that it is unfair to restrict development in the developing world for carbon concerns without accounting for the developed worlds history of carbon usage in its development. In essence, our commitment to carbon reduction must be tempered to allow for development in underdeveloped economies. Doesn't this apply to the North?
Billions for carbon extraction nothing for renewable resources makes this my problem not just a Northern decision. We live on the same planet and if my tax dollars are involved then I should have a say. If capitalism is such a good idea than let them take the risks not me and my grandchildren. Everyone needs jobs that don't destroy the planet not short term jobs building infrastructure to help increase the carbon load on the atmosphere.
Sure but your problem isn't whether or not a particular pipeline is built. Your problem also includes the 'green' subsidy scams that "don't destroy the planet" but essentially socialise risk to privatise profit while simultaniously enslaving the energy consumer into a massive wealth transfer from the masses to the elites.
Your problem is a fixation on 'carbon load' and 'tar pits' while the capitalists are busily speeding ahead of the curve and stealing your grandchildrens' lunch money.
The reality is that NG emits 50% of the "carbon load" of coal. Using NG as a transition fuel to allow future carbon and non-carbon technologies to fully develop makes sense. I believe the path to the future is driven by technology, not a restrictive regulatory framework that stifles technological innovation.
My problem is that while northern peoples live with vastly inferior social services, infrastructure and access to affordable healthy food choices, the only interest generated in their concerns is peripherally via "billions for hydrocarbons" topics. My problem is the linkage between a healthy, sustainable northern economy and hydrocarbon extraction that is manipulated by vested interests to be one and the same.
I agree with you that any industrial project should stand on its own merit but my point is that lack of industrial projects does not release the federal government from their socio-economic obligation to northern peoples.
The big money boys have decided it's going ahead - get used to it.
Now on the positive side there should be lots of jobs.
There won't be any jobs, at least not for the foreseeable future because the project is very unlikely to move forward. Three things are involved: there is a longterm surplus of natural gas in North America which makes it economically not viable, the Alaska pipeline has far fewer hurdles as the process is not mired in the same political quagmire(it has its own, less difficult quagmire), and finally the political process is not concluded as one of the First Nations involved has not agreed and who knows who will still agree on that faraway date when the project does beomce economically viable.
Having been a few times in communities directly affected like Ft MacPherson and Inuvik(most recently last summer), my opinion is that local people really want this project, if only because there are so few jobs for people outside govt at all levels. But... it ain't going to happen.
"I agree with you that any industrial project should stand on its own merit but my point is that lack of industrial projects does not release the federal government from their socio-economic obligation to northern peoples"
Do you measn job creation?
Having lived in the North for much of my adult life, I can assure you that without govt there would be very very few jobs anywhere in the North. Really, there are few existing industrial projects. mines, forestry or much of anything beyond layers and layers of govt. Tourism provides some revenue, but you have to be pretty rich and pretty keen to visit much of our North. In the Yukon for example there are four distinct layers of govt for just 33,000 people: Federal(who have cut their workforce in the North while devolving much of the program responsibility to other levels of govt), Territorial (who have been in holding patterns while passing Fed money through to First Nations), First Nations govt (which has grown dramatically everywhere) and municipal govts in communities.
For example, Yukon has 15 MLAs for 33,000 people. The NWT likely has the most industry, with producing diamond mines north of Yellowknife. Nunavut does not have much in the way of industry. But..... the Feds ultimately fund all of it, there is very little industry and very little tax base outside all those civil servants. It may or may not be a shame, but that is how it is.
I support this pipeline provided the FNs come to an acceptable agreement with the company and the Feds . Most mega projects in the North now have mandated aboriginal participation levels. Somethhing like this will provide jobs and royaltees for generations to come. It's something everybody should support.
I support this pipeline provided the FNs come to an acceptable agreement with the company and the Feds . Most mega projects in the North now have mandated aboriginal participation levels. Somethhing like this will provide jobs and royaltees for generations to come. It's something everybody should support.
It has taken decades to get to the place the First Nations find themselves now in the area: terrotories defined, political and economic structures in place, and for four out of five First Nations- agrrement as to their role and royalites.
But... too late I fear. If anything is built out of the North, it will more likely be the Alaska gas/oil pipelines, which follows the Alaska highway right of way through Yukon and BC mostly. There may not be sufficient market for that either.
Alaska gas pipeline could cost $41 billion
The Alaska Pipeline Project seeks to move natural gas from the harsh North Slope to market in Alaska, through Canada and to the Lower 48.
More details of the plan came in a filing today with federal regulators that's the first step toward an “open season,” when the companies behind the project will court gas producers and try to secure commitments for shipping deals.
All sorts of projects are scheduled for the North over the next decade, and climate change will only accelerate the process.
In Northwestern BC alone there is the RTA smelter to be rebuilt probably in 2012, construction on the LNG plant in Kitimat will commence in 2011, a pipeline from Kitimat to Alberta is in the works, as well as an expansion of the Kemano power project.
And the natural gas find in the Fort Nelson area which is huge and will be used mainly to supply energy for the oil extraction in the Alberta tarsands.
All sorts of projects are scheduled for the North over the next decade, and climate change will only accelerate the process.
In Northwestern BC alone there is the RTA smelter to be rebuilt probably in 2012, construction on the LNG plant in Kitimat will commence in 2011, a pipeline from Kitimat to Alberta is in the works, as well as an expansion of the Kemano power project.
And the natural gas find in the Fort Nelson area which is huge and will be used mainly to supply energy for the oil extraction in the Alberta tarsands.
All interesting, but with the possible exception of Fort Nelson, none of those are in the North.
Democracy is the merger of state and corporate power - W.L. Mackenzie King
more ecocide- as -genocide for Indigenous peoples and lands
This may or may not be true (lots of existing developments, such as mines, in the north have much bigger enviro footprints than pipelines) but it's worth noting that the vast majority of Dene, Inuit and Metis leaders in the NWT support the pipeline. In fact, they've formed a corporation to invest in it.