"Occupy Toronto" Part of the Democratic Renaissance?
The Democratic Renaissance Springs Forth into its Second Year
A New Era of Enlightenment Emerges
Eyes have been opened. Minds have been freed.
At the time of its publication in the summer of 2010, who could have imagined that the Direct Democracy Ireland manifesto, with its foreshadowing of a Democratic Renaissance, would be the first document of its kind to accurately describe a political and intellectual movement yet to attain substance and form; an aspiration that resided solely in the hearts and minds of millions around the world, brought closer together through technology and social media; an audacity to dream a little dream of freedom, dignity and hope everywhere, emboldened by the unshakable belief that a life of endless political and personal freedom, coupled with economic prosperity, is possible.
This movement, first described in the media as the Arab Spring, has only grown since its unleashing in the fall of 2010.
Though the winds of change began to be felt in North Africa and the Middle East, the Arab Spring has blown into a whirlwind of revolution: Tunisia is free, Gaddafi is gone in Libya, the regime of Bashar - Al Assad is crumbling, and Egypt is slowly crawling toward a democratic denouement.
Be it prescient or just happenstance, the recognition of a Democratic Renaissance here in the West has today come to fruition, not only in the Republic of Ireland, but across Continental Europe and North America. People are involved and demanding a greater say, their inspiration those who have thrown off the shackles of political repression and fear—the foundation of totalitarianism and oppression; tens of thousands have gathered in city squares from Athens to London.
But the Democratic Renaissance has brought with it much more than just new voices of political freedom: it has once again sent the individual down a new path of empowerment and intellectual enlightenment, a path filled with new perspectives and new ideas of a future within the grasp of men and women everywhere, grounded in the ideas of reason, logic and common sense; a path that markedly resembles one the human race abandoned long ago in favour of war, ideology and consumerism ...
the Enlightenment.
The Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries took place in a time similar to ours. The world was torn by wars of religion, by imperial and economic conquest. Persecution and witch-hunts were widespread. Looking closely at the activities of today’s activists, one might be surprised to note the similarity both of tactics and the intended outcome of such confrontation: political and intellectual assassination without just cause or trial.
Now, as then, the call for more democracy and freedom has also unleashed a set of circumstances and events showing the world to be little changed from the past, when Europe itself was ruled by the heavy hand of the aristocracy and priestly enslavers. Even though we in the West have rid ourselves of private armies, mercenaries and countless wealthy overlords, there are those still struggling for their freedom in the Middle East and North Africa.
Yet, as recent history has shown, humanity tends to move in the direction of less rather than more freedom, a world of shackles rather than a world in which people live in the full light of liberty and reasoned intellectual understanding. Really, how different is our world from that of our ancestors who struggled to free themselves from oppression and the tyranny of a ruling elite? Now, as then, do not the elite see the rest of us who dwell in rural prefectures, bankrupt suburbs and urban slums with indifference and contempt?
Certainly the West has come a long way from feudal landlords and debtor prisons. But has the individual really gained any more power since the final days of revolution in the 18th century? We may be more prosperous, we may have more stuff, but are we really any more free?
People in the West continue to face soft tyranny and systemic oppression, even now.
Are today’s bankers any different than the lords and barons who ruled in centuries past? Back then, we were at the mercy and reliant upon the generosity of an elite class for our livelihoods and future prosperity. Today, can anyone get anywhere without a loan or a mortgage that must be repaid with the price of interest, doubling and some times even tripling the final price of your home or car? And what is the difference between being required to adhere to a dogmatic religious code of conduct and the need to be politically correct to gain entry into a good paying job?
The major themes of the Enlightenment are kindred spirits with the zeitgeist today. As professor Paul Brain, Washington State University writes, “Like then, individualism, freedom and change replaced community, authority and tradition as core European values.”
And the similarities do not end there. As in the Renaissance, we are today coping with the end of one way of thinking and the emergence of new avenues of introspection. Just as the influence and importance of the church was on the wane then, science as a vehicle capable of providing future intellectual growth and economical, technological progress is today grinding gears and losing traction.
Today’s science is not that of the 17th and 18th centuries when the Renaissance exploded through this magnificent and powerful tool of investigation to enlighten people. We are now faced with boundaries and limitations that were not even conceived of then. John Horgan’s The End of Science is probably the best description of just how daunting—and possibly insurmountable—are the obstacles that now face those searching for tomorrow’s answers to today’s questions.
If we were to truly take an unbiased look as the Western world today, we would find a civilization in decay; its economic structures crumbling; a people politically lost; an economy teetering on the edge. Worse, we are intellectually a fragmented and disjointed people driven by irrational fears and beliefs that stifle lasting economic, political and individual prosperity.
Perhaps it is fitting, then, that the world should find itself in the throes of rebellion and revolution.
For us in the West, the Arab Spring has become a Democratic Renaissance. It has brought forth an entirely new realm of political possibility and individual enlightenment.
Truly, it can only be a matter of time before this energy and enthusiasm that fills the streets will find its way into other avenues of intellectual investigation and enlightened activity, exemplified by art, literature and philosophy.
The following six essays will attempt to describe some of the intellectual possibilities emerging in this New Era of Enlightenment, as well as discuss both the opportunities and obstacles facing the Democratic Renaissance as it moves into its second year.
Reprinted here with permission.
www.directdemocracyireland.org
Coming next:
Part II
The Democratic Renaissance and its Meaning
From Cairo and Athens to Dublin, A New Political/Intellectual Enlightenment Defined
http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/hum_303/enlightenment.html
Bob Rae At Occupy Toronto (and vid)
http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/brightcovevideo/161137
"There's huge insecurity out there right now and a lot of frustration that banks got bailed out very quickly but others don't get bailed out so quickly.."
And that our 'representatives' go along with this and other things, like support for Zionist crimes in Palestine and warmaking and killing Libyans and Afghans and lots of other things too Bobby boy...
NDP MP Olivia Chow Weighs In..
http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20111015/111015_Occupy/2011...
Olivia says same as Bobby Rae basically
Bob Rae? ew.
Bob Rae and his liberals are part of the enablers for corporate rule! Bob Rae is such a hypercrit - egads!
Look at all these lefties having an orgasm, it's just a fucking protest.. Calm down.
Bye, friend. Thanks for the memories.
I was there for a few hours yesterday in the miserable damp rain. It was very inspiring to see lots of people I know, and to see folks getting ready to stay there for a while. Various areas were being set up; a library, a medic tent. Food had been donated.
There was an unofficial babble corner when I ran into radiorahim, oldgoat and Matt Adams and Meagan Perry (rabble staffers). I saw Polunatic from afar.
I heard the rumours about Bob Rae being around but I didn't see him. I think the reason he was there was because St. James Park is in his riding. He surely wasn't there because of any solidarity reasons. Sheesh.
Great to see all you people there. Papal Bull also showed up. He's in TO for reading week. Got to chat with Derrick O'Keefe who was in from Van for a while. Meagan got an interview with Rae for rabble.
Actually, most people wouln't have gotten to see Rae as he didn't stray more than 5 feet from the big media vans parked up at the north end of the park.
I was also there, and I probably saw a few of you (I can't be sure, as I only know Aristotled24 to speak to). I also saw John Turmel, aka KingofthePaupers.
well I couldn't get down because of a previous mtg commitment but I'm in TO in the next couple of weeks so I will most definitely stop by. Rae I suppose didn't want to miss an interview - lol.
"Hypercrit" I love that.
Niether one really gets it. Or, if they do, they don't give voice to the fact that this whole thing is an indictment of political parties as agents of change, and that people view legislators as one of the biggest parts of the problem.
I wish protesters the best and support the ideals for which they are protesting, but if what they're doing now is all they intend to do, they'll be forgotten days after they go home. I'd be really interested to hear from the occupiers what they are going to do beyond demonstrating.
I wish protesters the best and support the ideals for which they are protesting, but if what they're doing now is all they intend to do, they'll be forgotten days after they go home. I'd be really interested to hear from the occupiers what they are going to do beyond demonstrating.
Why do you assume that anyone's going home before things change?
The very shock that this has had on "the system" can be seen in the way the media resisted, then had to finally concede to its existence.
Reading an essay by Chris Hedges, Feb. 2, 2009, It's Not Going to Be OK, explains (quoting Sheldon S. Wolin):"Democracy is not ascendant. It is not dominant. It is beleaguered. The extent to which young people have been drawn away from public concerns and given this extraordinary range of diversions makes it very likely they could then rally to a demagogue."
Perhaps need is not only the mother of invention, but of social change?Anyway, one can see why Hedges is excited by it all.
I was lined up for an MRI investigation of my neck, Saturday, and remarked to the technologist that the procedure would keep me out of the rain in Toronto. I got the strangest look, in return, and a studied silence met my attempt at reconciliation at the end of the noisy procedure. I must be more careful around medical personnel.
Toronto Star: Chantal Hebert: Want real change? Hit the ballot box instead of the street
Chantal Hebert misses the point. The electoral system doesn't work for most Canadians, let's say, around 99% of them.
Um, nope. The very nature of electoral politics is that whoever satisfies the status quo wins.
Then she says this.....
Followed by this....
Get your arguments straight, eh? Yeah we know parties cater to big businesses and corporations. Who have something better than a vote, they have money and influence.
And corporate Canada and "big labour" carry the same political weight do they? Fucking hell. Damn I hate Liberals.
It is that. Its nothing people haven't been saying around here for years.
I wish protesters the best and support the ideals for which they are protesting, but if what they're doing now is all they intend to do, they'll be forgotten days after they go home. I'd be really interested to hear from the occupiers what they are going to do beyond demonstrating.
Why do you assume that anyone's going home before things change?
History is littered with protests that have come and gone. In the desperate situation facing so many Americans, I can see it having an impact in the US (unless it is high-jacked by the Democrats, which would please Chantal Hebert to no end, I suppose).
However, my initial question is about what the protesters would see as successful next steps leading toward substantial change. It's not a criticism, just a question.
Obviously not the same by any measure, although their heads are often perceived as forming indentations on the same pillow. And as tough and erroneous a rap as it might be for some to accept, that perception is out there in spades. It can't be entirely ignored anymore that whenever collective action emerges as the necessary response from organized labour, it is an entirely defensive effort geared towards salvaging as much as possible from what already exists. To my mind unions should be countering the relentless strategic moves of corporatism with relentless offensive tactics of their own. Workers everywhere should be bought on board wherever possible, represented by the various bargaining units, and protected if necessary by picket lines. Austerity for the sake of profits, bonuses and casino speculation should be met with persistent and uncompromising expansion drives. The decades old bunker mentality which has been employed many times too often is unfit for the times, because it facilitates the sort of fractured and fragmented terrain that allows corporate shills like Lisa Raitt and Harperites to kick worker's rights in the teeth.
Chantal Hebert misses the point. The electoral system doesn't work for most Canadians, let's say, around 99% of them.
And corporate Canada and "big labour" carry the same political weight do they? Fucking hell. Damn I hate Liberals.
And what's even more frustrating and ironic is that Hebert advocates for electoral reform/PR.
Hebert talks out of both sides of her mouth.
Go down and ask them. In fact, you don't even need to ask, because they're already telling you. They're actually quite clear if you bother to take the time.
I thought this piece by Chris Hedges was well written and worth reading. Is there a message there for the NDP as well?A Movement Too Big to Fail
I heart Chris Hedges.
As for your question, Polunatic, I don't know.
Where was any mention of the OWS protests, and the planned Canadian protest day in the recent Ontario election, by the NDP?
Where has the local Toronto NDP been, before and since the rally on Saturday? City councillors? MPPs? MPs?
.
*crickets*
.
.
*tumbleweeds blowing by*
.
The nicest answer I can conclude is, the message for the NDP is to hope all the protestors go away soon.
What I predict will happen is that the cops will move in at some point when there are no or fewer cameras, and illegally arrest everyone and take down the protest site. And then release them with no charges a day or so later. Maybe there will be a public inquiry. Some cop will get a few days off with pay. Wohoo.
But I'm a crabby activist of 30+ years. I'd love to be proven wrong. There's lots of things we can do.
Meanwhile, I just read on Krystalline Kraus' Facebook page that there's a march at King and Bay at 8am tomorrow. Be there if you can, peeps!
Maysie, one would never know from looking at you that you've been in "the biz" for 30+ years!
I did see some NDP luminaries there on Saturday which was a good thing. I think that lesson is to "be bold", work harder to address the root causes of problems and put forward creative solutions that will capture people's imaginations.
Thanks Polunatic.
My trick is: start young and age well. I'm still working on that second part.
Damn, I missed the luminaries. Story of my life.
Olivia Chow and Andrew Cash were there, and spoke to the crowd. Other NDPers (including myself) were there in individual capacities.
Bob Rae seemingly spoke to the camera crews, and no-one else. Huge surprise there.
Um...what am I? Chopped Liver?
"However, my initial question is about what the protesters would see as successful next steps leading toward substantial change. It's not a criticism, just a question."
I think a lot of people are impatient for something tangible to come of this right away, hence the demand for demands.
The best situation would be for the establishment to start doing some things and asking, "there, will that make you go away?" With no one going away until substantial change is met.
It's a not a protest about demands as yet. First, it was a protest to show that people who are hurting, people who are offended by the events of the last few years are not alone.
In fact, not only do people see that they are not alone-- they now know they are in the majority, whether they are at home or on the street.
Pause for a moment, and think about what starteling progress this is in only a few short weeks.
Ideas are being bandied about, and things will coalesce soon enough. I suspect an event-- such as the European debacle coming to a head, or something not even on the radar-- will be the catalyst that will see demands come forth.
I would be surprised if Chantal Hebert really understood what was going on regarding the Occupy movement, but I am shocked that she is so clueless.
Utterly clueless.
"The nicest answer I can conclude is, the message for the NDP is to hope all the protestors go away soon."
Actually, you have to sort of feel sorry for the NDP.
Ages ago, when they really were a revolutionary kind of party, the knock against them was that they were a revolutionary party. So, they softened that aspect, over and over again-- like ejecting the Waffle in Ontario and turning to the media and saying "are we main stream enough now?" Only to have the media snigger behind their sleeves and up the anti. Over and over.
Until we take the word socialist out of the preamble.
And even that won't do it.
Now, when the mood is revolutionary, the NDP looks too mainstream.
And, I say that as an NDP member, who has never and likely will never vote anything but NDP.
This protest is a protest against Corporate power. And governments are seen to be in the graps of that corporate power. The NDP not nearly so much as the Democrats in the States-- "Republicrats" as some call them. But the NDP, by trying to identify so much as mainstream for so long, have unfortunately put themselves on the outside of this protest.
Where they should be.
Where they should understand they should be.
Any attempt by NDP leadership to get out in front of this parade and start pretending to lead it would be seen as an attempt by the establishment to co-opt the movement.
UPDATE: The march that was scheduled for 8am tomorrow has been postponed.
@Catchfire: First you mock Torontonians, then you want to be one of us? Make up your mind, daddy-o.
@Tommy: Yup.
That's the nice thing about enjoying no expectations. You're off the hook by default.
I believe it has been several days since I have given Torontonians a hearty mock. Are youse due again?
I was only making the point that you know at least one luminary. This guy. You're welcome.
@Tommy & SJ I overheard a woman giving a municipal politican (Vancouver Votes 2011! Woo!) what for simply for walking around with promotional buttons with her name it. I don't even think she was distributing them (although she probably would have given on if you asked). The complainant's point was that any attempt to self-promote, even a subdued one, comes too close to co-optation. I think she was on to something.
Maybe I am tactless above, in terms of the NDP. Thinking about it, I know there are individual members, some who I have met, some who I have worked for, who are decent people who feel like we do and are doing their damndest. And, I won't admit to saying so, but on local issues there are Liberal and (ulp!) Conservatives who side with people.
But what the fuck happens in our Legislatures and in Ottawa? Where does that get lost?
It's the system, maaaan.
Political parties have-- even if they want to change the system, or tweek it-- bought into it wholesale, they represent the system.
And let's look at our system. It's a parliamentary system developed by Elgin to contain the "mob". A sort of "democracy if necessary, but not neccesarily democracy." It was developed to keep the establisment in power, and a system evolved so that any radical change would be bogged down, shut down or otherwise thwarted.
It's a system based on the pony express being the fastest form of mail. When it took two weeks to go from London to Toronto. The age of sail, of the horse... with steam power being something new.
Things move a little faster today. Political parties and the machinery of legislating cannot cope--- even if it wanted to.
That's why we are seeing movements-- the Arab Spring-- the Occupy movement--- the anti-Corruption movement in India spring up from the streets, because change is needed faster than the process of "change from within" can provide.
This is particularly accute in British Parliamentary systems that are designed above all else, to prevent change unwanted by the established power structures.
Is a politician's mere presence at an 'Occupy' event to be viewed as suspect and an attempt at co-option? You can go too far with this. It would be difficult to castigate politicians for not listening, and at the time barring them from your protests because you fear co-option. I'd suggest that this is a question of degrees. Bob Rae would clearly love to co-opt the movement, and has been roundly mocked for his never wandering far from the media vans in Toronto. I'd humbly suggest there's an acceptable middle ground between his antics and not showing up at all. Barring or lecturing people who aren't necessarily in lock-step with the movement speaks to concerns about the frailty of such a movement.
Does anybody know Lawrence McCurry and why he is saying this?
http://canadiandimension.com/articles/4228/
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/why-occupy-wall-stre...
Something I came across today.
I saw this interview a few days ago. It's ten minutes-- but it's not necessary to listen to it all.
Ventura says a lot of good things here.... but there's the unabashed self promotion.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58FlcqRE1Aw
Jonah Schein was there, too. And Olivia Chow looked overjoyed by what was going on.
Actually, you have to sort of feel sorry for the NDP.
Ages ago, when they really were a revolutionary kind of party, the knock against them was that they were a revolutionary party. So, they softened that aspect, over and over again-- like ejecting the Waffle in Ontario and turning to the media and saying "are we main stream enough now?" Only to have the media snigger behind their sleeves and up the anti. Over and over.
Until we take the word socialist out of the preamble.
And even that won't do it.
Now, when the mood is revolutionary, the NDP looks too mainstream.
And, I say that as an NDP member, who has never and likely will never vote anything but NDP.
This protest is a protest against Corporate power. And governments are seen to be in the graps of that corporate power. The NDP not nearly so much as the Democrats in the States-- "Republicrats" as some call them. But the NDP, by trying to identify so much as mainstream for so long, have unfortunately put themselves on the outside of this protest.
Where they should be.
Where they should understand they should be.
Any attempt by NDP leadership to get out in front of this parade and start pretending to lead it would be seen as an attempt by the establishment to co-opt the movement.
This is a very important issue for the NDP that you raise, Tommy. Several of us among the NDP base are at least sympathetic to the Occupy movements, if not actively involved ourselves. For this reason, I think it is important that the NDP find some way to connect with the movement, to channel it into something more. You articulately pointed out how the NDP boxed itself out of these kinds of movements, and the difficulty of the NDP becoming involved, but I think this is something the NDP must do, and that the consequences for the NDP would be far worse if they ignored this movement.
quote:"Maybe I am tactless above, in terms of the NDP. Thinking about it, I know there are individual members, some who I have met, some who I have worked for, who are decent people who feel like we do and are doing their damndest. And, I won't admit to saying so, but on local issues there are Liberal and (ulp!) Conservatives who side with people."
With recognition of complexity - the most compelling of Chris Hedges' summary of the human condition - comes hope for solution.
That's where Jack was as well, a decent guy who was doing his damndest. And he respresented the very heart of the institution that isn't ever doing enough. He can't have known what opportunity awaited out there on the streets...
Look at all these lefties having an orgasm, it's just a fucking protest.. Calm down.
This is, while totally inapropriate, very funny. We live in an age where he have to complain over everything. Do any of these protesters think their grandparents' social gap was any smaller? Do any of these protesters believe that they represent 99% of the population? If even 1% of the population showed up for a rally it would be impressive. Honestly, I understand that you are upset with the American right to a free market because it can cater to already successful individuals. But what can we accomplish?
Tax the rich and feed the poor until there are no rich no more?-10 Days After
These protests have not achieved anything but congesting major streets.
Yes, and we have to consider that if we treat the rich poorly, they may just up and leave our society and start one of their own. Then where would we be?
And one suspects that the rich might just hold out for more than 10 days. Give them a month. But aren't we inviting more historical revisionism in responding to this? :)
Found this today.
http://howconservativesdrovemeaway.blogspot.com/2011/10/occupy-wall-stre...
"Bailouts, subsidies, tax breaks, special rights and privileges, regulations designed to restrict competition—to name a few of the many ways the government protects and stimulates corporate interests, and those things are every bit as anti-free market as, not to mention directly related to, the high taxes and excessive bureaucracy that gets Tea Partiers riled up. In other words, aren't these two groups—Occupy Wall Street and the Tea Party—raging against different halves of the same machine? Do I have to draw a Venn diagram here?"
Look at all these lefties having an orgasm, it's just a fucking protest.. Calm down.
I think one of the Occupy protesters signs, widely reproduced in the MSM, sums it up best: "CEO pay up 144%. How about you?"
Student and blogger (oh, and reeeeaaally lame rapper), huh? Do you get grants or loans for school? Or is mommy paying for everything? 'Cuz it used to be you could get out of college and your debts wouldnt be so high that you would have to declare bankruptcy if you didnt get a 60k+ job within 6 months.
Lame tweets, too, dude. "Occupy a job," huh, huh, daz funnee I nevah hurd dat one before. I was there and i work my ass off pal. How about you. Do you even launder your own shorts?
1% huh? Happens all the time: over 200,000 came out on a bitterly cold January day to protest against the 2nd Iraq invasion. That's more like 10% of Toronto population. While occupy was going on, 28,000 were simultaneously gathering to protest a quarry which will screw up the water supply for a million people in this province. There's your 1%
Block traffic on a Saturday morning, really, that's all you got? Those FIENDS!
Gotta ask, is that your face on the video on youtube? Or are you just trying to hide the fact that you're from the suburbs and still have your bum wiped for you? 'Cuz I'm thinking using the N word in a rap is a pretty dangerous move for a soft pink rich kid.
To quote from Risky Business:
"Go to school. Go learn something."
To quote from Spike Lee:
"What do you know 'bout me? Y'all can't even pee straight."
People are a little scared of revolutions, unless they are revolutionaries. Governments, of course, are especially scared. A lot of the negativity Occupy is going to get is going to come from this fear.
The actual 1% really have nothing to fear, so long as the demonstrations remain peaceful. China has something like 30,000 strikes and protests a year, and they know how to suppress them very well. The Chinese Communist Party is there to stay. They will exterminate half their own population if they feel it is necessary. And they have the means to. For thousands of years tiny governments have been able to suppress whole populations. In that respect, nothing has changed.
A large number of people within the 99% are not going to support the Occupy movement, even if the Occupy leaders imply they represent the whole 99%. They will back the 1% and the State. Some through self-interest, some through loyalty, and some through fear.
I am really afraid this is not going to end well. In the US, if Occupy turns into a second revolution, the revolutionaries have the right to bear arms, and may be able to force the State into a standoff. Right now, most of the gun people are with the Tea Party, so the State doesnt have to worry too much. If the Tea Party joins up with the OWS, things are really going to change. Not only that, but the US state was formed in rebellion and revolution, so some more is not out of the ordinary. The cat, as it were, is out of the bag. Not Canada. As in the UK, it is about the Authorities, who WILL prevail.
Ironically the people here in the Occupy are also among the most ardent supporters of gun control, which means they will have no means to defend themselves if the state, in all its power, goes to the streets as well. Here, only the police, military, and the criminals have guns. Given the order to start firing, they will. This is what frightens me. I don't want to die before my kids get to know me better.
In Canada, we had the Upper Canada Rebellion, Riel, the Winnipeg General Strike, and the FLQ. All of those uprisings were put down mercilessly by governments of all political stripes. If this gets out of hand, the Crown will prevail. That is what the Crown is for, as a backstop to eternal political Authority. Oh I guess now we know why the Armed Forces got the Royal put back in. They were expecting trouble.
So if you consider yourself a leftist and you are a monarchist and/or a gun control supporter, you are supporting the two most effective tools the State has to suppress you. You are really not a leftist but a faux-leftist who likes to use ideological trickery to lull the population, so that you will continue not to be bothered. Just post a few times here and vote NDP and up the workers!!!
And whoever the troll was that said that abolishing the Monarchy was not a 'High Priority', I hope they are happy now. Now, you can see the real reason for the Crown. And whoever believes in gun control, way not to have a revolution and surrender to the state. When the state and the criminals have all the guns, they can do whatever they want to you. Or make you do anything just by pointing one at you.
All of this is proving that I have probably been right. The State curtails freeedom. Now you are going to see how. The problem is not 'the rich' or 'the bourgeoisie' or any other political rhetoric designed to demonize one sector of the population over the other. The problem is Government. As it always has been. Until Government is severely curtailed it will bail out banks and wage wars and do whatever the hell it wants.
Go home. You are in the wrong country.
OK I will try this again. Does anybody know this guy and why he might be saying this when nobody else is (or at least that I can find).
There was one more thing that kind of freaked me out. As I was leaving the media tent I spotted a woman who I recognized from many protests around town, she is a blogger for a popular alternative news site. After introducing myself, I asked her if she still wrote for that site and she said she did. I then asked her "as a journalist, are you not concerned with the lack of transparency in this movement?" What happened next made me feel like I was in the body snatchers film. She replied with "Go away, you're scaring me with your aggressive language, and I don't wish to talk with you anymore!" What??? I was shocked. Surly this woman had seen me around at other events as I her? How was asking her this question aggressive in any shape or form? I left the park more disturbed than I have ever been from a day of protest with maybe the exception of the day of the G-20.
Does anybody know Lawrence McCurry and why he is saying this?
http://canadiandimension.com/articles/4228/
This Friday, I'm helping to lead Shabbat services for the Occopy Toronto folks. 5 o'clock in St. James Park. Look for the "School Tent"
In Canada, we had the Upper Canada Rebellion, Riel, the Winnipeg General Strike, and the FLQ. All of those uprisings were put down mercilessly by governments of all political stripes. If this gets out of hand, the Crown will prevail. That is what the Crown is for, as a backstop to eternal political Authority. Oh I guess now we know why the Armed Forces got the Royal put back in. They were expecting trouble.
The Rebellions of 1837-1838 (including the Lower Canada Rebellion) eventually lead to representative self-government (or responsible government), which was a key demand of the participants in both rebellions. I wouldn't put the October Crisis in the same list as either the Winnipeg General Strike or the Rebellions of 1837-38.
Arrival of Mohawks Takes Occupy Up a Notch - by Ezra Levant
http://www.torontosun.com/2011/10/31/arrival-of-mohawks-takes-occupy-up-...
"...Do you think they'll enforce the law if Mohawk warriors bring their machine guns to downtown Toronto?
Or do you think they'll pull another Oka or Caledonia - just cut a big cheque to the criminals and give them the park."
vile lies and trash from Ezra the levitating ant
Some yurts have illuminated a problem.
They're circular, adorned with esoteric symbols and often spotted on the windswept steppes or high-mountain pastures of Central Asia.
...
With winter fast approaching, the three yurts, erected over the weekend, are meant to provide warmth, shelter and a communal space for the ever-growing tent city in downtown Toronto. Despite their humble nomadic roots, the stylish yurts are a far cry from the chilly tents where most protesters sleep.
...
It remains to be decided how the largest yurt, next to the food station, will be used. Some proposals include a safe space for women, a general assembly area or a warm place for people to hunker down at night. The last option, though, could pose problems.
"Who gets priority access to sleeping in a yurt?" asked protester Jeff Wong.
Occupy Toronto organizers keep the large yurt under lock and key.
"We have to make sure [the yurts are] policed properly so they don't turn into crack dens," said Antonin Smith, who works on the Occupy Toronto food team.
This is not what democracy looks like.
Why? Why not?
Assuming that these are accurate quotes:
Occupy Toronto organizers keep the large yurt under lock and key.
"We have to make sure [the yurts are] policed properly so they don't turn into crack dens," said Antonin Smith, who works on the Occupy Toronto food team.
This is a clear duplication of the society we already have. If anyone doesn't see that this is a huge problem and is steeped in classism, exclusion, lack of solidarity and middle-class ignorance and righteousness, then we will have to agree to disagree.
Other "Occupy" movements deal with the issue of displacing homeless folks in entirely different ways. This is important since most of the Occupy locations across North America are in places where homeless folks usually gather/stay/live. And yeah, some of the homeless folks have issues with substance use. So? So do some of the occupiers. So do some of the bankers. Do you see where I'm going with this?
Thanks Maysie. I'm really wondering about how hard messaging and reaching folks are these days. Reading and observing Ezra Levant and his folk and listening to the chatter around me, it must be difficult for the organizers to balance everything. The narrative by the right is unbelievable and mean-spirited. I don't have faith in the general crowd to sort through it enough, so I have some sympathy with the position taken by the organizers.
Perhaps you could guide me in my confusion? And you already have I see. Just getting my mind around how to get others to see it.
While I reject the mainstream's expected, predictable and rather mundane critiques, it's important to hear critiques from within the movement, the left and other marginalized positions.
Saying that certain spaces are for some people and not others, especially when those "others" are the people who live in the park all year round, and, one could argue, those who feel the effects of class oppression every fucking day, shows a level of disconnection and lack of inclusion that demands comment, critique and change. This is what I mean when I say they are duplicating the society that we're in already.
I support, as an ally, the Occupy, (Re) Occupy and the Decolonize movements across North America and in the rest of the world, but there must be a way to challenge oppressive actions when they happen.
Toronto isn't alone. Occupy Santa Fe did the same thing (look under II, Reports from the Safety Group).
This is a clear duplication of the society we already have. If anyone doesn't see that this is a huge problem and is steeped in classism, exclusion, lack of solidarity and middle-class ignorance and righteousness, then we will have to agree to disagree.
Yeah, we should postpone fighting against the 1% until we have resolved all the contradictions among the 99%.
Yup. Raising one significant social concern in opposition to another one. We'll have to agree to disagree.
I never said to postpone, Unionist, but thanks for the lack of respect.
Fuck, I hate it when I see both sides. And I agree Maysie. you said you support the movement, your criticism notwithstanding.
I never said to postpone, Unionist, but thanks for the lack of respect.
Ok, let me be crystal clear about this:
While the Occupy movement is ongoing, I want to see the allies (you and me and most of the world) hailing and supporting it - unconditionally.
For example, I've spent a lot of time fighting for health and safety in the workplace (and elsewhere). If I hear that someone is trying to dismantle an Occupy encampment on hygiene grounds, I don't even stop to ask whether there's some merit to the concern. I reach for my figurative weapon.
When Lisa Raitt is trying to crush some workers' struggle, I don't want to hear about how one worker made a racist/sexist/homophobic comment about another worker (or manager) on one of the picket lines once somewhere, and how the union isn't taking effective action to stop that. I want to just support them - unconditionally.
When the Afghan people are fighting to expel foreign invaders, I don't want to hear Western so-called allies debating which faction to support or critiquing Afghan attitudes toward women or westerners or foreigners or LGBT folks etc. That's just the way I am.
I recognize that this is a fundamentally different approach from that taken by some others in the left. My approach isn't 100% and universal in all circumstances. I absolutely respect those of good faith who take the other approach. They may even be right for all I know.
But I will introspectively tell you this much. Wherever it comes from - nature, nurture, who knows - I am left at my advanced age with this very stubborn sentiment: That those who are in struggle against the common enemy will enjoy my support and respect, and I will not throw stones from the sidelines. When the focus of the struggle changes, what was stones may need to become boulders.
Hope that explains where I'm coming from.
This is a clear duplication of the society we already have. If anyone doesn't see that this is a huge problem and is steeped in classism, exclusion, lack of solidarity and middle-class ignorance and righteousness, then we will have to agree to disagree.
Yeah, we should postpone fighting against the 1% until we have resolved all the contradictions among the 99%.
Yup. Raising one significant social concern in opposition to another one. We'll have to agree to disagree.
As Masie has said herself she did not suggest postponing anything. What she is suggesting is that any progressive movement needs to be critically reflective to the extent that they have awareness around when they are replicating oppressive behaviours and attitudes that we are opposing. If a movement is doing that then it is not fighting the status quo. Historically we know that we do not just want to replace one heirchal power and exclusionary system with another. The occupy movement has been vocal about being inclusive it needs to walk the talk.
It is important also to note that not only are we are fighting we are building, we are building an alternative and in doing so we have to be open to internal critique, those of us with privilege and power need to be critically aware of when we are operating from that power and privilege. Speaking from personal experience this is not easy but I believe it is necessary. IF something is difficult that is often an indiczation that it is also necessary.
To me the way that we relate to the most marginalized in society is crucial and is not something we need to wait for until the revolution is over, to me it is the revolution.
As Maysie has pointed out the space that is being "occupied" already had occupants (not only in terms of colonial history). Anyone who has done street outreach has an understanding that on the street that is the home of those who are without homes and needs to be respected. If the movement was not aware of this than it is a major oversight.
I am writing this as someone who is a strong supporter of the movement and has been inspired. I have been down there and wish I actually had more time to help out and also help address this issue.
And as much as I understand where you are coming from in regard to the issue of certain tactics being employed at demonstrations...I just can't seem to locate any agreement with your position. It seems to me that if you can't unconditionally support the various approaches that might emerge from a crowd representing various types of injustice...why say anything negative at all. Why not take the position that while they don't represent you by employing certain types of actions, the results are understandable. Why this two-tiered clarification?
Oh, I understand, SJ. If someone comes along trying to sabotage a struggle, I condemn them as being lined up with the enemy - even if they are shouting slogans more radical than any poet laureate could possibly invent.
Which helps to explain why you get so worked up over things when the real bricks start flying.
No, SJ, in summer 2010, when the real bricks started flying, the real pricks were long gone, their job done.
C'mon Unionist, forest for the trees? Nobody's trying to sabotage anything. She's bringing awareness. I see no harm in that.
In fact, I need awareness. This is big. It is perhaps the struggle we've all waited for.
At any rate...a movement of this nature is bound to fail if they insist on making the same mistakes as the society they're arguing against. They'll become fractured, compartmentalized and isolated. If they can't walk and chew at the same time with respect to systemic marginalization and oppression, they have no business representing anyone let alone the 99%, when its the 1%'s everyday expectation of us they're actually mirroring.
See, that's where I'm conflicted and thanks for spelling it out Slumberjack. We need solidarity. Until the 1% are scared, we are a flea.
Exactly.
The other thing is that there's bound to be mistakes in that regard. How could there not be with the level of conditioning that exists. They have to be corrected in order to move on to the next issue.
..with a diversity of people come a diversity of issues. some observations from the van occupy:
..there is no official leaders. so if something does happens who do you talk to? and if you report something to say security..they have no authority. and they often need to go over to the information tent and have a discussion with someone or ones there. when something threatens the encampment in some way a collective decision gets made..by the assembly if possible but with as many people you can, if not.
..there are work groups and committees that are very approachable and a way of raising your issue. or you can stand where people are gather and say “mic check” 2xs. people will repeat the check and then you can state your case. a 1/2 hr before the assembly is to meet we have a time to add something to the agenda. there are limits but serious issues are not ignored. people here don't shy away from controversy.
..the most repeated word in the camp is patience. yes we have problems. but we didn't come into this prepackaged. there are folks out there who have skills that are very much in demand here in trying to work this all out. more are needed as the workload is heavy. a motion is going to city council today for the removal of occupy van. working in these conditions is not easy but rest assured we are doing our best.
Seems to me like an unavoidable allocation issue. If there isn't enough yurt space for everyone, not everyone can sleep in a yurt and you need some way to figure out who gets to. The assumption that an unattended yurt is going to turn into a crack den is a bit much but they are quite costly and for Occupy Toronto, vital items. I don't blame them for trying to protect them.
Seems to me like an unavoidable allocation issue. If there isn't enough yurt space for everyone, not everyone can sleep in a yurt and you need some way to figure out who gets to. The assumption that an unattended yurt is going to turn into a crack den is a bit much but they are quite costly and for Occupy Toronto, vital items. I don't blame them for trying to protect them.
..i disagree. it's a process issue. if you disagree with something going on there needs to be a way to resolve it rather then some folks just taking a dessison. in this case i feel it this needs to come to the assembly and in van there is a way to get it there. i'm sure that is the case in to.
..here we decreed that if you used a mic it was a power position and boundries were established. the same with facilitaters. they facilitated only and if they want to share their opinion they would need to leave the platform and join the rest of the assembly. power is a sensitive issue and must be adressed directly. it doesn't mater who is right or wrong.
edit: and in this encampment the assembly is the closest thing to the ultimate decider. a block vote in the assembly means that someone is so opposed to a position that she or he is prepared to leave the occupy. these are the building blocs of a future where decissions are made in the community and polititions are managers that implement those decisions. and not decission makers.
Holy smokes. Did anyone read the article?
Where does it say that anyone other than the assembly will make the decision? All we know is that the yurt is locked up until they decide.
One person is quoted as saying "We have to make sure [the yurts are] policed properly so they don’t turn into crack dens." That person is identified as being a member of the food team - not the Supreme Chair and Dear Leader. He expressed an opinion when some reporter waltzed along.
Molehill, meet mountain.
I just heard that at 10pm tonight, London, ON police are going into Victoria Park to oust the Occupy London people. Thank you Mayor Joe Fontana.
What the hell is this "Democratic Renaissance" in capital letters, btw? The person who started this thread started at least three others with those words in the title?
What the hell is this "Democratic Renaissance" in capital letters, btw? The person who started this thread started at least three others with those words in the title?
It's Truman. He's hoping for a renaissance of the Democratic Party. Good luck with that.
I didn't think they ran in Canada-wouldn't there be an eligibility issue?
Rochdale was originally a refuge for idealists. Ultimately, its cooperative idealism was its downfall. Dedicated to consensus decision making and granting a vote to everyone who lived (or claimed to live) in the building, Rochdale's governing body was unable to reach agreement to expel those who failed to pay their rents or otherwise live up to its ideals. Unable to pay its mortgage to the Canadian government, Rochdale drifted towards insolvency. As nearby Yorkville became gentrified during the late 1960s, much of Toronto's counterculture moved into Rochdale. This included homeless squatters and bikers who dealt hard drugs, along with a substantial number of undercover officers from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
According to the CBC Archives, by 1971 Rochdale had become known as "'North America's largest drug distribution warehouse.' Hash, pot, and LSD are in large supply. The Rochdale security force includes members of biker gangs".
CBC Archives also describe how "[d]ue to problems with cops and bikers, the governing council set up a paid security force to be on 24-hour alert. Ironically, some of these security people were bikers themselves. As had happened in Yorkville, an unofficial alliance with the Vagabonds outlaw motorcycle club developed." Rochdale's educational focus and student population declined as the drug business increased.
After increased clashes with police, and unable to pay its mortgage, political pressure forced financial foreclosure by the government, and Rochdale closed in 1975. A number of residents refused to leave. On May 30 the last residents were carried from the building by police. The doors to the college had to be welded shut to keep them out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_College#Drug_culture
I love what's happening. That's why I didnt put in editorial. I just asked "Why? Why not?" This kind of empassioned discussion is exactly what I was looking for.
But just because decisions are hard, doesnt mean we wont have to make them.
booze and drugs have effectively been outlawed. “This territory is a sacred site; no alcohol and drugs because that is spiritual warfare on [native] elders,” one participant said, summarizing the consensus after a week of group flip-flopping over whether it was cool or not to use inside tents.
http://www.nowtoronto.com/news/story.cfm?content=183419
In closing, I'd like to remind people that the state is certainly not above pushing drugs, especially to leaders of marginalized communities, in order to stifle dissent, both by clouding the minds of activists and as a pretext for the use of force.
COINTELPRO anyone?
You gotta use? Fine. You want to look after users? Fine. Walk them off the site, look after them while they're on the nod, then bring them back to a tent and a sleeping bag and a meal and clean clothes and a community that gives a shit.
Well said dude.
A Proposal From OWS - Spokes Councils
http://occupyto.org/2011/11/02/a-proposal-from-ows-spokes-councils/
"Occupy Wall Street recently proposed Spokes Councils. This is an interesting concept that maybe could be considered by Occupy Toronto to get more people involved and make us more productive as a whole.."
what's up currently at www.occupyto.org
Could they be losing focus a little here? Occupy Toronto walks in solidarity with Tibet
Why? Because they're protesting an imperialist policy of the People's Republic of Wal-Mart, y'know, where our overlords sent our jobs to be done by their slaves?
Protest everything and you might as well be protesting nothing.
wow. you're deep maaaaaaaaaaaaaan
Could they be losing focus a little here? Occupy Toronto walks in solidarity with Tibet
Occupy Wall Street Protests in Greater China
http://chinastudygroup.net/2011/10/occupy-wall-street-protests-in-greate...
"A group of several hundred individuals in Zhengzhou protested earlier today in support of Occupy Wall Street, I believe earning them the first public action in China related to the occupation..."
well given that they are 'occupying' Missassauga sovereign land, and constitute the citizenry of a settler-state - it does all seem a bit...muddled.
it seems the occupy toronto movement is more occupied with how to peacefully live in the park while keeping drugs and violence out of their mvoement than about the original message of the occupy toronto. we need to stay focus on our demands, not on the process.
So re the above - 2 more relevent pieces:
Can Revolutionary Pacifism Deliver Peace? by Noam Chomsky
http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/287-124/8264-can-revolutionary-p...
"The global conquest took a particularly horrifying form in what is sometimes called 'the Anglosphere', England and its offshoots, settler-colonial societies in which the Indigenous were devastated and their societies dispersed or exterminated..."
Constitutional Democracy V Unconstitutional Empire - by W'Lawpsh
http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/09/constitutional-democracy-v-unconstitut...
"There is a real court case pending; or sort of pending except for the fact the Clerk of the Supreme Court of the US is blocking the Courthouse door to prevent the case from entering and being put in a file that will end up before the Justices and require a decision by them, supported by rational reasons for Judgment.
Its name is Mahican Tribe and Rick Vanguilder and Mi'kmaq Tribe and Gary Metallic v Canada, France, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Russia, United Kingdom and United States.
But the issue it raises amounts to asking the nine Judges of the most powerful court in the world to answer the constitutional question of Constitutional Democracy v Unconstitutional Empire in favor of constitutional democracy over unconstitutional empire.
Since that particular court is the imperial court of the empire, the question is really asking them to do a coup amounting to a counter counter-revolution..."
Wall Street is Mahican Tribal Territory yet despite supporting numerous other issues and causes, OWS or indeed Occupy Toronto, has NOT yet seen fit to march against the threshold issue the original sin of settler-colonialism, genocide and THEIR OWN ILLEGAL OCCUPATION. Some contradictions are never resolved, seldom raised, frequently avoided.
Free Tibet eh?
What about Caledonia?
They seem to be more taken up with removing or hiding certain conditions that have more or less resulted from economic oppression, along with the people represented within the conditions, anything apparently which might provide the authorities with a pretext to assault the encampment, while missing the point entirely that power is adept at inventing pretext if it is not first handed to it on a platter. In doing so, they protest against the existing economical structure by mimicking the way economy controls and categorizes 'their' society at large. In their outrage against the existing corporatist civilization, the occupy leaders have set about creating their own civilized spaces from which to register their outrage against a civilization that excels at hiding the problems it has created and magnified...taking lessons from it it seems. And no littering please....its the environment after all.
They seem to be more taken up with removing or hiding certain conditions that have more or less resulted from economic oppression, along with the people represented within the conditions, anything apparently which might provide the authorities with a pretext to assault the encampment, while missing the point entirely that power is adept at inventing pretext if it is not first handed to it on a platter. In doing so, they protest against the existing economical structure by mimicking the way economy controls and categorizes 'their' society at large. In their outrage against the existing corporatist civilization, the occupy leaders have set about creating their own civilized spaces, from which to register their outrage against a civilization that excels at hiding the problems it has created and magnified...taking lessons from it it seems. And no littering please....its the environment after all.
Yeah, I think the way to grow the movement is to let people know that drugs, violence, petty crime, spousal abuse, littering, etc. are all welcome in the encampment - oh, and masks and rocks and incendiary bombs too! We're not the well-fed comfortable first-world liberals, ya know - we're embracing the conditions that result from our economic oppression! And the cops won't be happy for an excuse to shut us down... No, they don't need excuses, they just crush us any time they like, so we might as well bring out the heavy weapons - we're not waiting for the revolution, we're losing it today!!
wow. you're deep maaaaaaaaaaaaaan
It wasn't meant to be deep. Nobody achieves any one thing by trying to do everything. It would be like trying to win a tug-of-war by attaching a bunch of strings to the rope, handing them out and telling people to run in all directions.
Well put unionist.
Doug, I'd rather see a solidarity march in support of Chinese workers rights to collective bargaining, benefits, a living wage, proper housing, universal public health care, and the right to see their families more than one weekend a year . Perhaps we might be able to compete as workers if we didn't have to compete with enslaved labour; enslaved labour which serves OUR 1 Percent.
The more time goes by, the clearer the purpose of Nixon's visit becomes.
But Tibet's a disgrace, too, so I have no problem with protesting that imperialism.
Yes, well put Unionist. "Real" movements are built by assisting capital in the everyday business of hiding the human effect from the view of more decent folk. Some people are just plain embarrassments to any enterprise....and if we don't do something about it, the cops will lay a thumping on everyone's ass...as if tidying things up and sweeping people away represents a protective barrier between protest and police brutality. At any rate the domino effect has already begun with Oakland and Vancouver, along with other places. Instead of play by play....we'll likely be gearing up for post mortems on the entire affair soon enough.
Slumberjack is just throwing tomatoes from the sidelines. Great work you're doing dude.
I read your pre-edited comment WZ. In New Orleans, when people were hungry or needed medical attention, kitchens and medical centres were set up by the people. They didn't hide the problems away to keep up 'appearances.' They attended to them from where they stood with whatever resources there were at hand.
That's what I'm seeing in Vancouver.
Are your comments about the situation in Toronto informed by having visited the occupation?
Is that the same as saying that one needn't comment on military affairs unless one is a soldier? I'm not surprised or disappointed by your statement...having seen it employed so often in other contexts.
I'm asking if your opinion is informed. So, is your opinion informed or not?
How much capitulation is required before one becomes informed? The recent statement from Occupy Vancouver in response to the ultimatum to clear the zone is promising. The same should be said in response to any critique from government at this point.
When you talk about what is going on at Occupy Toronto, is this based on having seen the occupation with your own eyes? If not, I would say that opinion is not informed. So have you been down to the site or not?
If you've never been to Afghanistan...any opinion you might have on the matter would be ill-informed. The same applies to any war zone.
Thanks for admitting you're talking out of your ass. You have no idea what's going on at the occupation.
I just don't think your infantile challenge is worth an affirmation one way or another. It just seems to me that there's very little consistency between what you said above in the Occupy Vancouver thread, and your attacks on my response to Unionist for suggesting the 'riff raff' be swept away and kept out of sight. It appears that your intent then is to counter what you've described as talking out of ones ass with talking out of both corners of the mouth, which if you ask me, is hardly any way to stake out a solid position.
I'm saying you're disparaging the movement by claiming that organizers are sweeping people away, and pointing out that actually, you have no idea what the organizers are doing.
I certainly have no idea of what your position is on the self policing of Occupy sites to force out any sign of pretext the authorities may wish to use.
Your imagination is running away with you. Try quoting me instead of raving and concocting. My point was simple: Stop slandering the Occupy Toronto protesters based on misinterpreting that asinine article posted by Maysie. Try supporting, unconditionally, for a change.
I'm part of the "riff raff". My people have been swept away and kept out of sight more than once in history. I suggest you be more diligent when you're researching whom to attack.
I have participated only online (on livestream) at 2 general assemblies in occupy Toronto.
I don't think most people there want to exclude anyone else, but some have expressed that they are unable to adequately attend to the needs of the mentally challenged or drug addicts or alcoholic.
And some others stated that "those people" were there first and should not be kicked out because they cant subscribe to the rules set up by occupy Toronto.
Most people in occupy Toronto are doing their best to live in an open and volatile environment , I am not there, I don't live there, who am I to judge how they should live?
But what do I do notice is that there are tension and people seem like they are spending time talking about process or the day to day issue about living in the park , as opposed to the purpose of the ows.
That in turns make me question what is the significance of the rest of us who don't live in st james park to participate in their mostly internal discussion about their "camping" experience.
I admire and respect the shit they put up with camping in a park, its very brave and they are good people getting bad presses, i just wonder if any of this occupation will lead to anything... i have to admit watching them out there is kind of reminding me of the tv show "lost" and "survivor"...
In terms of the idea that we are all illegally living on native land, Occupy Toronto is doing their best to reach out to the aboriginal people, and many native people are there expressing their support for the occupy movement, so we should be happy about what is going on.
I certainly have no idea of what your position is on the self policing of Occupy sites to force out any sign of pretext the authorities may wish to use.
I don't know what they're doing in Toronto. I haven't been in contact with any of the Toronto occupiers. There's a lot of complexity in keeping an occupation and I'm sure Toronto has been finding some similar challenges as Vancouver.
I know that in Vancouver there are a lot of voices to bring together, and that there have been challenges, and there has been a lot of bonding and agreement. But anything that goes through the media can be cherry picked. A ten minute interview turns into a ten second sound byte and you're not getting anything close to the real story. There are lots of very intelligent people down here with very diverse ideas about what kinds of solutions can be tried. Don't assume that one clip is representative of the movement. I know that here in Vancouver I haven't felt represented by some of the clips that have gotten pushed. I would assume the same thing is happening in Toronto.
In the OV Media Committee one protocol is, "Unless you saw it with your own eyes, or a Media Committee member saw it with their own eyes and told you, don't report on it until we can investigate it further." I have seen that it is a good check on my own behaviour. Please keep this in mind when you evaluate how much you might think you know about what's going on.
In the next few days it will become very clear as to how Occupy Vancouver will address the issues of public safety, health, homelessness, drug addiction, inclusion etc., and I encourage people to keep paying attention, and please put in a good word for us if you find an opportunity to do so. We are currently in mourning and dealing with a looming threat of an injunction.
Slumberjack, it feels to me like these capitulating capitulators who have been camping out for three weeks now, feeding people, making decisions together, etc., are just not radical enough to get any admiration from you. I am seeing how much people are giving of themselves onsite. People are exhausted and committed to the cause and to the process. This is a global movement and we are not going anywhere. You come across to me as incapacitated by your cynicism. Is there nothing positive you have to say about the occupation?
Slumberjack:
Unlike Afghanistan, its not like you have to take a few weeks off work, save a few grand for plane fare, learn arabic and several regional tribal dialects, bribe various corrupt border officials, then hike fifty miles in on foot to see what the real story is at Occupy Toronto.
Nice comparison.
I mean, really????
You just have to drop a token in the TTC.
Of course that takes getting off your incredibly obnoxious, ignorant, condescending ass.
Oh you poor dear, oh ye, the subject of such arduous struggle.
Perhaps we should hold a benefit and rally to hoist you out of your settee and lethargy.
Long thread! Continue here.