Prime Minister Justin Trudeau

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Unionist

[Sorry, I posted in the wrong thread - see here.]

Unionist

Sean - any interest in commenting on my comment on your post? I'd be interested in getting your take on my analysis. If you wish to, of course.

Sean in Ottawa

Unionist wrote:

Sean - any interest in commenting on my comment on your post? I'd be interested in getting your take on my analysis. If you wish to, of course.

I missed your post and have only now read it.

I agree generally with the idea that we can do more and more in many areas. As labour declines in some areas it will expand in others. However, I do think there is a limit -- in part becuase we do not force people to go into certain vocations. I also think that the amount of labour available is more significant than people realize and eventually there is an upper limit that we can conceive of satisfying.

I do not consider arts as non essential.

The things you mention are things I see as mostly public enterprises delivered not for profit and we ought to be able to hire more and more to do this. But I still think we will still need to have private work and that this would be taxed in part to pay for this enhanced public enterprise that you envision. That private enterprise, instead of being centralized manufacturing in other countries, can more local and creative in the fields of the arts.

These are not competing priorities especially as the people who are most likely to lean to one or the other are not the same individuals. Art is very much an economy generating thing. It really does not compete in the way you and Quizzical have suggested, I think.

Unionist

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

I do not consider arts as non essential.

Neither do I. If I even hinted at that, please show me where, and I'll correct it!

Quote:
But I still think we will still need to have private work and that this would be taxed in part to pay for this enhanced public enterprise that you envision. That private enterprise, instead of being centralized manufacturing in other countries, can more local and creative in the fields of the arts.

I agree. But why just the arts?

Quote:
Art is very much an economy generating thing. It really does not compete in the way you and Quizzical have suggested, I think.

I completely agree with your first sentence. As for "competing", once again, if I suggested that anywhere, it was never intended - show me and I'll clarify it!

To repeat myself: I agree with you entirely about the arts. Where I disagreed - and I didn't clearly hear your counter - is the part I bolded, trying to be very specific - where you said, "there is a limit to the work available in the area of life necessities". I wrote at some length to deny that thesis, because it didn't account for the dynamic growth in what human society considers as "life necessities".

Let me put it differently. I'm not afraid of computers and machines. I don't for one instant believe that there's some kind of "crisis" because of automation and robotization and mechanization. If that were the case, then unemployment levels would surely be far higher than they were, say, 100 years ago? I see no evidence of that. Why? Because as productive capacity increases, new needs arise (which before were maybe seen as luxuries, or didn't even exist, or were too expensive to dream of, but have now become cheap like borscht because so much less labour is needed to produce them). That bolded assertion was my one and only quibble with your argument. And I'd still like to hear whether you think I'm right or wrong or somewhere in between. I didn't talk about the arts at all - because on that issue, I agree with you.

quizzical

welll Justin and the Liberals have sank to an all new low.

not only ae they busy denying Veterans their pensions they just decreaed the wages of military people fighting in the ME. by like 1500/month.

stated they weren't really in danger.

fuck wits.

they should be pulled out and brought home anyway.

they should all just refuse to leave their barracks.

NDPP

Ministers Set Scene in DC For Trudeau's Monday Meeting with Trump

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-ministers-to-washington-1.3973202

Paladin1

quizzical wrote:

welll Justin and the Liberals have sank to an all new low.

not only ae they busy denying Veterans their pensions they just decreaed the wages of military people fighting in the ME. by like 1500/month.

stated they weren't really in danger.

fuck wits.

they should be pulled out and brought home anyway.

they should all just refuse to leave their barracks.

15 soldiers lost the tax break back in September. They fought to have it restored but the government turned around and decided everyone in Kuwait (about 300 members) will no longer qualify for the tax break because the danger is too low. (a truck full of explosives targeting US soldiers failed to detonate in October)

 

In another story a single mother who retired after 27 years of service was forced to wait over 5 months for her severence money and pension. She was evicted from her appartment for not being able to pay the bills. She also had a botched suregry from the military which apparently started her on the path to getting kicked out and she's survived cancer twice.

Anytime something like this comes up the Minister of Defense promises to fix things but there doesn't seem to be a lot of movement.

nicky
quizzical

brilliant

Rev Pesky

John Ivison? Is that the extreme right-wing pundit that writes for the extreme right-wing Natoinal Post? That Ivison?

Pondering

I'm sure satire will work really well with swing voters, not.

The right has long lampooned Trudeau for being too stupid, too callow, too entitled to be a successful prime minister. But Saganash’s attack is much more devastating because it comes from the left, it mocks his arrogance, and it questions his principles.

It's not coming from "the left" it's coming from the NDP. John Ivison is deluded if he believes what he writes which he probably doesn't. He's just trying to make a buck. He knows journalists are losing their audience and relevance. The only people reading Ivison are political junkies.

There is only one measure of success or failure that matters and it happens on election day. It's possible Trudeau's numbers will plummet between now and election day but they certainly won't be hurt by the NDP's mocking his "arrogance and questioning his principles".

I'm really curious to see some polls on Trudeau's support or lack thereof but I guess it will have to wait until the NDP and Conservatives have leaders.

How long did it take to get Mulcair's name known to the general public? I'm pretty sure it took years for Canadians to find out Mulcair was the leader of the NDP. I'm sure Romeo Saganash has a solid base of support that will be delighted by his lampooning of Trudeau, he may even gain new fans over it.  Most Canadians will never hear of it or read it.

The 2019 election will be won or lost on Trudeaus perceived management on the economy.

nicky

Ah Pondering, rising predictably and blindly to defend your leader, as predictably and blindly as the Alt-Right defends Trump, whatever the evidence.

Is it true that you are really Margaret Trudeau?

Pondering

nicky wrote:
Ah Pondering, rising predictably and blindly to defend your leader, as predictably and blindly as the Alt-Right defends Trump, whatever the evidence. Is it true that you are really Margaret Trudeau?

Trudeau has betrayed indigenous peoples. How am I defending him? I'm not questioning the content of the letter. It's very clever, so clever it's like an inside joke.

This notion that Canadians can be neatly divided into left and right is misguided and self-defeating.  

quizzical

Pondering wrote:
The 2019 election will be won or lost on Trudeaus perceived management on the economy.

governments get self absorbed and myopic. guess its got to do with absolute power corrupting absolutely.

there's no way at this point the Liberals are going to prove anything to do with the economy. they've already fked it.

let's see. they've pissed off FN's. they've pissed off environmentalists. they've pissed off the government employees. they've pissed off the military. they've just pissed off the 55+ voters and PR advocates. whose left in their little 1/3rd of the voting pool? die hard Liberals.

guess you missed yesterday's protests.

if tomorrow Trudeau even sounds sympathetic or conciliatory to Trump he won't even get a minority in 2 years.

Quote:
This notion that Canadians can be neatly divided into left and right is misguided and self-defeating. 

i never saw anyone do any dividing into left right in this thread or hardly ever here.

i saw the word alt-right which in itself denotes more than a left right optic.

 

Pondering

You aren't certain enough to put your prediction in the prediction thread. Do you realize that Harper still has the reputation of being a good economic manager?

I didn't say that Trudeau is a good economic manager, only that he will be perceived as such. As to Trump he won't hurt Trudeau at all. Under the outrage, Canadians are more worried about what will happen to trade and the border than what Trump is doing to immigrants and refugees in the states. People are expressing their relief that we have Trudeau rather than Trump.

The attitude or assumption from more than a few posters and from many journalists is that there are conservatives and everyone else who is on the "left".  That "left" gets split between the Liberals and the NDP. The Liberals trick people into supporting them by faking left when really people should be supporting the NDP, the genuine"left". If people understood this they would vote NDP but for some reason the NDP just can't get through to them that they are being deceived by the Liberals. But in 2019, unlike every other election, they will have such a solid list of Liberal sins and Conservative sins before them that surely people will realize that the NDP is their only choice. Then the NDP will lose again and blame stupid voters for never giving them a chance.

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

Trudeau got elected on democratic reform, FN/metis/inuit issues, marijuana, and not moving the pensions to 67. If he breaks all these promises, there will be no reason for anyone to vote for him in 2019. Could go back to a Tory government with an NDP opposition.

quizzical

Pondering wrote:
Do you realize that Harper still has the reputation of being a good economic manager?

do you ever really ponder your own words?

you do realize Harper lost the election even if some consider him a good manager of the economy?

acting like Trudeau got some magical huge % of the popular vote is = to Trump believing he did.

and you're not being rationl if think being friendly with Trump won't blow back on Justin.

the Conservative voters already hate Justin so he won't win them over by being friendly with Trump and as demonstrated by the million or so representing millions more across Canada protesting Trump they wil turn on Justin in a heart beat.

Pondering

montrealer58 wrote:

Trudeau got elected on democratic reform, FN/metis/inuit issues, marijuana, and not moving the pensions to 67. If he breaks all these promises, there will be no reason for anyone to vote for him in 2019. Could go back to a Tory government with an NDP opposition.

Trudeau got elected on promising to run a deficit, increased child tax credit, and taxing the rich to give to the middle-class coupled with his overall image. In 2019 he will have the advantage of the incumbant.

A single term PM is rare:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_federal_general_elections

From the time Trudeau won the leadership, before even, he was underestimated. When Mulcair was in first place I read that it was because people had finally realized that Trudeau was just a rich boy and that Mulcair was a man of substance.

From what I have read here Trudeau's record is par for the course for Liberals so I don't see why this tme it will be any different short of opponents making a radical difference in how they fight him.

Geoff

If Trump finds out that the producer of SNL is a Canadian, Trudeau will be shipped off to Guantanamo Bay quicker than you can say, "alternative facts". Pondering will be without a leader. Total loser. So sad.Laughing

quizzical

montrealer58 wrote:
Trudeau got elected on democratic reform, FN/metis/inuit issues, marijuana, and not moving the pensions to 67. If he breaks all these promises, there will be no reason for anyone to vote for him in 2019. Could go back to a Tory government with an NDP opposition.

they've convinced themselves they got elected on running a deficit, increased kid money and taxing the rich. lolol

they've not taxed the rich. so strike  it off too.

people are pissed about the deficit spending and shit not getting done.

and when you get more kid money federally some people are findng they can't get provincial child care subsidized because they're in a higher income bracket. so they lose more money on the increase than they get.

Liberal delusions....

Pondering

TRUDEAU HAS BETRAYED THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLES OF CANADA

I am not pumping him.

In 2015 the NDP lost an election they could have won because they stupidly underestimated Trudeau and his team.

P3's are a much more important issue to me.

This was posted earlier in the thread by epaulo.

http://www.policynote.ca/trump-and-trudeau-are-gunning-to-massively-priv...

In fact, the Ontario Auditor General recently reported that the province had lost a jaw-dropping $8 billion over a decade by building projects as P3s rather than as traditional public infrastructure projects.

I realize that's provincial but the principle remains the same. Trudeau is planning a massive expansion of P3s.

I'm not saying don't attack him. I'm saying attack him more effectively by focusing on economics. Layton's bread and butter issues. Those matter to everyone.

Aside from P3s there is still the issue of CETA and other trade deals containing ISDS chapters. These are not traditional trade deals.

Pondering

quizzical wrote:

Pondering wrote:
Do you realize that Harper still has the reputation of being a good economic manager?

do you ever really ponder your own words?

you do realize Harper lost the election even if some consider him a good manager of the economy?

acting like Trudeau got some magical huge % of the popular vote is = to Trump believing he did.

and you're not being rationl if think being friendly with Trump won't blow back on Justin.

the Conservative voters already hate Justin so he won't win them over by being friendly with Trump and as demonstrated by the million or so representing millions more across Canada protesting Trump they wil turn on Justin in a heart beat.

Harper came close to winning and may have against another Liberal leader. He was at the 10 year mark and didn't have anything new to offer. Mulcair might have won against a different leader too. He also held first place for a bit. Trudeau was much weaker in 2015 than he will be in 2019.

So you think Canadians want Trudeau to get on Trump's bad side before renegociating NAFTA? I think people are much more pragmatic than that. Like it or not Trump is President of the USA. Diplomacy is the only sane choice for Canada. He isn't going for a playdate. Managing our relationship with the US has never been more difficult than it will be with Trump. What would be irrational is making an enemy of Trump with NAFTA being opened. Right now his target is Mexico but he could turn his sights on us.

quizzical

lololol irrational? pragmatic?

you misssed the demos i see and didn`t put enough weight to them to realize we don`t care about trump`s badside nor are we interested in fearing im.

Pondering

quizzical wrote:

lololol irrational? pragmatic?

you misssed the demos i see and didn`t put enough weight to them to realize we don`t care about trump`s badside nor are we interested in fearing im.

Demos were against Trump and sexism etc. not against Trudeau. I attended. Did you or did you just watch on TV?

It doesn't mean I or anyone else is ready to trash Canada's economy just so Trudeau can insult Trump. Idiotic NDP wants to debate internal US policy in the Canadian Parliament. You and the NDP must want us to impose trade sanctions to intimidate the US. To quote you "lolol".

In my opinion the NDP is playing to the base to keep their lefty rep. while not risking being left on economic policy. The NDP (not it's followers) aspires to be the Liberal Party because they think that's what it takes to get elected. We will see who wins the leadership of the party. The moderate right wing or the moderate left wing of the NDP.

Paladin1

Perhaps surprisingly one of the groups the Liberals haven't really pissed off yet or bothered with are the Canadian firearm owners. No new firearms registry. No RCMP kicking down doors. No new guns being banned. The only real issue seems to have been a silly un-enforcable magazine restriction placed on a gun essentially used for shooting tin cans. (estimates are 10 million+ criminals over night)

There's actually a few scary looking black guns that are presently awaiting approval from the anti-gun RCMP which would give them non-restricted clasification.

quizzical

pondering i was speaking about last week end and the protests against  his stating no PR.

NorthReport

Lookin' good Justin! Smile

US Trump Canada

 

 

Trudeau, Trump strike joint council to cut barriers for women entrepreneurs

2 leaders host roundtable with powerful female entrepreneurs, executives

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/washington-trudeau-trump-meeting-1.3979743

quizzical

lookin good????

wtf

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

They kind of look like they're trying to do some kind of "black" handshake, but neither really knows how.

Just curl your thumb around his, then open the fingers, a "tap-tap" of the palms, make a fist, then a fist bump, then turn the fist 90 degree clockwise and another bump.  You cool, bro, you cool.

quizzical

they made his hands look bigger.....lololol

NorthReport

What's not to like about the Canada-USA relationship? We are their biggest trading partner and they are ours. They have Disneyland and Vegas, and we have Newfoundland.

'What's his name again?' Once smitten by 'Trudeaumania,' drama-stricken D.C. too anxious to fete PM

Trudeau visit comes amid deep concerns about a White House in tumult

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/trudeau-reception-washington-1.3980961

NDPP

Trudeau/Trump Joint News Conference

https://youtu.be/K_BdAII8ToU

phoney and baloney

 

NorthReport

Justin Trudeau's visit a moment of calm in tumultuous Trump White House

Tone of Washington visit respectful - but the 2 leaders' distinguishing characteristics were hard to miss

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/wherry-trudeau-trump-white-house-1.3980873

NorthReport

Trump and Trudeau meeting hits right notes for Canadians wary of trade threat

Instead of tearing up NAFTA, Trump pitches 'tweaking' of trade pact

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/trump-trudeau-trade-1.3980561

bekayne

Thread title needs to be changed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBPg_XuMUOo

josh

I was just going to post that. LOL

bekayne

josh wrote:
I was just going to post that. LOL

Sean in Ottawa

From Joe Who to Who Trudeau. Nice.

mark_alfred
quizzical

i now. exactly my point to pondering  yesterday. less important than the trade acrosss the border. fkn Liberals

Sean in Ottawa

 

Trust in government dropping at remarkable rates since Trudeau got elected.

The centre cannot hold: Canada faces a populist eruption

http://ipolitics.ca/2017/02/14/the-centre-cannot-hold-canada-faces-a-pop...

This phenomenon is not al Trudeau's fault of course -- some distrust is leaking across the border as part of the culture.

But Trudeau with his high expectations has done a lot of damage himself. High profile breaches of promises threaten every part of his electoral coalition of youth, environmentalists, Indigenous, among others.

It is getting very difficult already, just a year and a half in to imagine Trudeau winning the next election. He is holding a small lead with both opposition parties yet to pick a leader. Both should improve at least slightly which would put Trudeau in second place. The scramble for NDP votes may die on the pyre of his electoral reform promises.

I think Trudeau is now heading toward more likely being defeated than re-elected. And we are not far from that now.

Add to this a rise in reactionary right wing populists, Trudeau's deceptions and breaches of faith will serve as the ultimate in voter suppression.

josh

I think Trudeau is now heading toward more likely being defeated than re-elected. And we are not far from that now.

Add to this a rise in reactionary right wing populists, Trudeau's deceptions and breaches of faith will serve as the ultimate in voter suppression. 

 

I think it's rather premature to conclude that about Trudeau.  It also remains to be seen how much of a rise there is in right wing populism.

voice of the damned

josh wrote:

I think Trudeau is now heading toward more likely being defeated than re-elected. And we are not far from that now.

Add to this a rise in reactionary right wing populists, Trudeau's deceptions and breaches of faith will serve as the ultimate in voter suppression. 

 

I think it's rather premature to conclude that about Trudeau.  It also remains to be seen how much of a rise there is in right wing populism.

Even in the US, the rise in right-wing populism wasn't enough to give Trump a majority of the popular vote in what was basically a two-way race. Granted, you can't wholly extrapolate that into Canada, since the PM isn't elected directly. But still, I agree it might be premature to talk about right-wing populism as a surefire thing in Canada. To some degree, I think the media(established or otherwise) are just looking for easy-to-grasp patterns to keep the public in a state of excitement. (WILL TRUMPISM CROSS THE BORDER?? STAY TUNED!!) 

 

Pondering

quizzical wrote:

pondering i was speaking about last week end and the protests against  his stating no PR.

Hundreds of protesters is nothing. Most if not all were probably already NDP supporters. It is certainly not evidence that Trudeau will have trouble in 2019. All he needs to win is 30% to 40% of votes. As long as I get marijuana legalization I don't much care who wins in 2019 as long as it isn't the Conservatives. I think if the NDP had won in 2015 it would have destroyed any chance of them winning again for a generation. 

Pondering

Paladin1 wrote:

Pondering wrote:

 

Posters are still wildly underestimating Trudeau. His presentation has improved tremendously since the debates. He's got a rock solid team of advisors and marketers. They are politically astute and you can bet they are already planning for 2019. They know that the Conservatives are going to be going on and on about the deficit and the economy. Trudeau knows the NDP will angrily bring up every single broken promise especially electoral reform. The NDP will bristle with outrage.

Then Trudeau will win again despite the NDP pointing out all the lies. If Trudeau doesn't win, it will be the Conservatives.

If anything people are starting to realize just who Justin Trudeau is and where his loyalties lie.

His $1500 a seat Liberal parties where he initially lied about not talking business (and where it sounds like the real price was $4500 or more) which violated the Liberals driven rules on the matter (being conflict of interest).

His shady new years vacation that once again violated the law about the PM taking private aircraft which he just fucked off and said it's okay because they're old buddies (which he strangely won't talk about how many times he visited the island).

Recanting a pretty huge election platform promising to scrap the F35 project.

His blatent attempt to sell Canadian soldier lives to get a seat on the UN security council.

You mention the conservatives will go "on and on" about the budget, well ya??.  Maybe I'm not reading you right but you almost sound like it's blown out of purportion?  What are they projecting now, 2050 or more? Sorry but they really really fucked up the budget, there's no fluffing it off.

It is blown way out of proportion. Economists are saying Canada remains in good shape. The infrastructure and education deficits Harper and previous governments left us are/were far more serious and harmful to Canada's longterm well-being. Individual people go into debt for 30 to 50 years to buy a house. Doctors graduate 100K in debt. As long as you are getting value for money debt is not a bad thing. 

Harper ran deficits for a decade. 

As to people realizing who he is, check the polls, remember the election will be decided by people who will only pay attention the last week or so before an election. My certainty that he will win again isn't based on policy. It's based on the political astuteness of the Trudeau team and the knowledge that they already have a plan in place for 2019. Goodies will pour out in the year or months leading to the election. 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Pondering wrote:

quizzical wrote:

pondering i was speaking about last week end and the protests against  his stating no PR.

Hundreds of protesters is nothing. Most if not all were probably already NDP supporters. It is certainly not evidence that Trudeau will have trouble in 2019. All he needs to win is 30% to 40% of votes. As long as I get marijuana legalization I don't much care who wins in 2019 as long as it isn't the Conservatives. I think if the NDP had won in 2015 it would have destroyed any chance of them winning again for a generation. 

Thanks for my LAUGH OF THE DAY. 

Trudeau will "legalize" pot alright and you won't be able to afford it and I won't buy it because it will be grown by Monsanto. The RCMP will stillbe chasing anyone who grows their own or has pot other than the government approved drug. But that is the Liberal way a win for the corporations and a win for the RCMP, what could be better.

Pondering

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Thanks for my LAUGH OF THE DAY. 

Trudeau will "legalize" pot alright and you won't be able to afford it and I won't buy it because it will be grown by Monsanto. The RCMP will stillbe chasing anyone who grows their own or has pot other than the government approved drug. But that is the Liberal way a win for the corporations and a win for the RCMP, what could be better.

Pot is easier to grow than tomatoes. Neither police nor the RCMP will go after people growing for their own use or even for that of friends as long as it is just a few plants. I will definitely be growing. If they try to lock out experienced small growers the black market will flourish. The provinces will do a lot of the regulating. Some will be stricter than others. 

Sean in Ottawa

josh wrote:

I think Trudeau is now heading toward more likely being defeated than re-elected. And we are not far from that now.

Add to this a rise in reactionary right wing populists, Trudeau's deceptions and breaches of faith will serve as the ultimate in voter suppression. 

 

I think it's rather premature to conclude that about Trudeau.  It also remains to be seen how much of a rise there is in right wing populism.

Note the words "heading towards"

https://www.hilltimes.com/2017/02/09/liberals-conservatives-tied-nationw...

There is a decline from the heady honeymoon days and the Liberals are polling now close to what they got in the election. The Trend from a year ago is significant and the Liberals do not have far to go down before they are not first.

As well both the NDP and the Conservatives cannot be expected to get dud leaders. If either one makes a mark the Liberals are in trouble.

The Liberals are losing support as well due to promises broken to the key parts of their electoral coalition.

So I think I am ok saying "heading towards"

 

NorthReport

In the next election NDpers will be voting Liberal ro keep out the Cons.

NorthReport

Donald Trump's strange handshake style and how Justin Trudeau beat it

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2017/feb/14/donald-trumps-stra...

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