This is outrageous - and not in a good way. There should be an immediate boycott of TD for trying to bully Pride and censor critics of Israel and City Council should be given hell over this.
Pro-Israel lobbyists threaten funding for Toronto's gay pride
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Nothing less than a political attack upon the rights of the LGBT community to free expression. So far its only a rumour that the TD and the City approached parad organizers at this level, but it is a disturbing rumour. If so, I have to agree with Mr. Gladstone that their are "eerie parallels to Nazi Germany" in the offing, but Gay people marching against racial discrimination is not it,
It is the City alledgedly, the B'nai Brith and the TD Bank that are trammaling on peoples rights, not the Gay Pride event.
This is so outrageous. I mean if B'nai B'rith is really so interested in gay issues, then why don't they have a float of their own in the parade and if they want to include some pro-Israel banners etc...all the more power to them.
This is a bigger issue than that, 2 points are converging into public face of this.
The BB knows that there would not be exclusion occuring on the part of Pride parade organizers. Therefore, attacking the funding effectively would shut down the parade, which is what the Christian fundamentalists that they are now closely associated with want.
2 birds 1 stone.
And one wonders who the real fascists are?
The Pride parade flourished for many years without any corporate sponsorship and if one or two banks didn't sponsor it this time - the parade would go on as well.
I'd prefer it actually. Probably start attending again on a regular basis.
Interesting debate in the online Comments section that follows the National Post article.
I posted this in the other thread, here it is again.
Tim McCaskell's letter to Toronto Pride (it's circulating on the net so I'm reproducing it in its entirety):
Dear Pride Committee,
I have just finished reading an article in the National Post's Posted Toronto, headlined, "Toronto Pride organizers ban anti-Zionist group."
For the moment I am assuming this is a distortion of Pride Toronto's position and the organization will demand a prompt correction.
Queers Against Israeli Apartheid is a legitimate LGBTQ group and is no more a hate group than was the Simon Nkodi Anti-Apartheid Committee under whose banner I marched for many years in different Pride parades. Apartheid is legally considered a crime against humanity, and Israel's illegal occupation of the Palestinian territories falls within the definition of Apartheid. I don't expect you to take my word on it, but I attach here the executive summary of a recently released report from the prestigious South African Human Sciences Research Council. I quote below one paragraph but I highly recommend Pride board members read the document in its entirety. If anyone knows about what Apartheid is, it would be the South Africans.
This study is the outcome of a fifteen-month collaborative process of intensive research, consultation, writing and review. It concludes and, it is to be hoped, persuasively argues and clearly demonstrates that Israel, since 1967, has been the belligerent Occupying Power in the OPT, and that its occupation of these territories has become a colonial enterprise which implements a system of apartheid.
Pride has always been an opportunity for diverse LGBT groups to reach out to the community and the public and to speak about their issues. Government policies here in Canada and around the world have often been held up for criticism. I am appalled that B'nai Brith would try to bully the Pride Committee into silencing those speaking out against human rights violations in the occupied territories. At this point I am still refusing to believe that the Pride Committee would give in to such bullying.
I am looking forward to your clarification of this issue.
Sincerely
Tim McCaskell
Tim McCaskell, co-founder of AIDS Action Now, was one of the organisers of the 1981 protests against the bathhouse raids. He was a founding member of the Right to Privacy Committee and a member of The Body Politic collective.
This is interesting
In response to concerns about political messaging in the Pride Parade, Pride Toronto released a statement outlining its position on this issue. This article incorrectly claims that Pride Toronto has banned political messages from the Pride Parade.
We wish to stress that any organization wishing to participate in the Parade is welcome to do so, as long as an application is submitted and due process is followed. That said, any organization that contravenes Canada's hate crime laws or Pride Toronto's anti-discrimination policy will be removed from the Parade forthwith.
We have asked the National Post to correct the inaccurate statements in this article to no avail.
We invite any who are concerned to read the statement posted in the Press Room of our website (www.pridetoronto.com)
Mark Singh
Co-Chair
Pride Toronto
This letter by Mark Singh was obviously written by a lawyer. His only complaint about the NP article seems to be the statement that they have "banned political messages". He says nothing about the alleged banning of Queers Against Israeli Apartheid. Clearly, that's an admission that they have indeed banned it. That also explains the cryptic reference to "Canada's hate crime laws".
Unless I've misread this (someone tell me please that I'm wrong), it sounds as if they've bent to the pressure of the wealthy and powerful. That's unfortunate, because those are unreliable allies, to say the least.
Interesting that the National Post refuses to correct or retract the article. You'd almost think they give primacy to propaganda over facts.
Interesting that the National Post refuses to correct or retract the article. You'd almost think they give primacy to propaganda over facts.
Just to be clear, the only part that you're saying needs correction or retraction is this: "... along with any other group that would advance a political agenda."? Is the rest of the article accurate? Pride Toronto's letter only challenges that one phrase, from what I can see.
SHOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
aka Mycroft starts a post bashing Israel.
Where are cueball, unionist and michelle??? I thought they take their laptops to the bathroom when they're taking a shit??
Nothing like wiping your ass with one hand and typing with the other.
I wonder if RabbleFhegg/RabbleRacist (I forget the third moniker) is the same person who has been stalking me by phone? If so, maybe we should have his IP pulled and turn it over to the police in order to aid in their investigation?
He/she is not doing much for the pro-Zionist cause.
WOW. Another shock! Someone is harrassing aka Mycroft via telephone!!!!
You sound like a real winner Mycroft. I think the cops would have more interest in [libel deleted].
And exactly what prize do you think you qualifiy for? Are you that fucking stupid that you think what your doing means anything? You're just annoying and you will be forgotten. You contribute nothing to anything.
He/she is not doing much for the pro-Zionist cause.
I disagree - he's more eloquent than most of them.
Sorry folks I was off doing some errands. He's banned. Again.
And it's nice to see the statement from Pride Toronto, as forced as it sounds. The grassroots folks (old school and younger generations) and the "we're just like everyone else" folks have been quietly clashing for years, now it's out in the open. Sorta.
I've heard directly from El-Farouk. QAIA have NOT been banned from the Pride parade. Serves me right for believing the National Post. My apologies for contributing to the mayhem.
Yeah Maysie - ban people who don't agree with your racist opinions.... that must mean this is AN APARTHEID WEBSITE!!!!!
Now if you don't mind, I'm off to a transgendered muslim youth meeting...
We seem to be having a special on trolls today...
Trolling is so 90s.
For fuck's sake.
I don't have the "Extra Super Mod Powers" (TM) that Michelle and oldgoat might have to ban this fuckwad's IP address. Sorry. We'll have to put up with doofus for a little while longer.
Well we should note that aka is being stalked by phone so maybe this guy's IP can be given to the police to see if it is the same address as the person who is stalking aka by phone.
Aka I think you can star a number that starts an immediate trace and flagging of a stalkers phone call.
With some phone companies I think it is also possible to block a specific number so that that number cannot call you at all. This doesn't prevent somebody from calling you from a different number, so the *69 approach is probably better.
This is a letter Pride ED Tracey Sandilands has sent to Post scribe Joseph Brean. Don't know if there's been a reply.
There appears to have been a misunderstanding, and I was apparently not clear enough during our discussion.
While we at Pride Toronto will indeed do everything in our power to ensure that the Parade remains about Pride, and have issued a formal request to the participants to respect this, WE WILL NOT BE TAKING SIDES IN ANY POLITICAL ISSUE AND WILL NOT BE BANNING ANY GROUP that participates within the boundaries of the laws of Canada and our anti-discrimination policy. I believe this is clearly mentioned in the statement we issued today. This means that while we will not tolerate messaging that promotes racism, sexism, and homophobia amongst others, only those entries that contravene these policies will be removed.
Also, at no time in our interview did I say anything about ‘warning' El Farouk. I have indeed had a discussion with him on this issue and he has undertaken to keep the issues separate as you state in your article, however the summary that says ‘Her announcement came with a warning to grand marshal El-Farouk Khaki not to use his ceremonial position as a pulpit to promote an anti-Israeli boycott.' Is incorrect. At no time have I needed to ‘warn' him on this issue, and I would appreciate it if you could amend this before final publication.
Regards
Tracey Sandilands| Executive Director
Thanks for that letter from the Pride ED, akaMycroft.
So this looks like it was all just a tempest. But even this non-story doesn't bode well for the future, given how important money and funding can be used to put pressure on silencing issues. Lots of people and organizations would/will cave, or sell out the margins to the mainstream. Especially in the context of what's gone on with Reena Katz, and her cancelled art piece. It's a chilling reality, and we must fight back.
Pride's entire history is political, even as it's tried so very hard to move away from it. The political loud mouths are still out here, fucking shit up. We're here, we're queer, we're political, deal with it.
And if QAIA is targeted for being "hateful" and removed from the parade, something I'm sure they're anticipating, I think this is a good year to march at Pride, something I haven't done since the barricades came up and individuals could no longer simply march on our own.
I find it interesting that the National Post seems to have just made shit up and printed it.
I know they're basically a Conservative Party mouthpiece and an Israeli PR organ, but this goes beyond that. When I heard this morning that the article was basically a pack of lies, it made me wonder whether the NP was simply printing what they WISH had happened, hoping that Pride would then feel like they had to ban QAIA. Was this the NP hoping that after their story broke, that praise from pro-Apartheid organizations and individuals might be heaped on Pride for supposedly taking this action, making it difficult for them to correct the record and say that, actually, no, we didn't say anything like this and we didn't ban the group?
A rather amusing exchange in the Post's online comment section underneath Brean's article
I am the author of this article. It was my decision, approved by editors, to use the term "ban" to mean that QuAIA, which marched in last year's parade, will not be permitted to do so this year.
QuAIA has not applied to take part, nor did they apply last year. They just joined from the sidelines, and seemed ready to do so again. They were then, and are now, an unauthorized protest group, and thus banned.
Pride Toronto's statement on Wednesday was in direct response to online speculation about QuAIA's participation, stemming from the Grand Marshall's presence at a QuAIA event on the weekend. My interview with the executive was specifically about QuAIA's participation. As it stands, they do not have permission, and I understood that they would not receive it, because their message conflicts with the stated policy that participants must carry "a message supportive of the LGBTTIQQ2S community."
If that's not a ban, it's close enough, although it is curious that the Pride Toronto website now carries a prominent, uncaptioned picture of Pride Parade marchers carrying a "End Israeli Apartheid" banner.
I stated clearly, as does Pride Toronto, that this policy of requiring official authorization, and the ban on unauthorized or discriminatory protesting, applies to everyone.
Anonymous accusations that this article, which presents comment from people on all sides of this issue, is "false" and that I am "intentionally spreading lies" are silly and wrong.
Joseph Brean
reporter
National Post
Dear Joseph Brean,
You are wrong, and perhaps some investigative reporting would have helped.
Last year, QuAIA did not join the parade "from the sidelines". In fact, the CUPE contingent invited QuAIA to participate as the CUPE Toronto District Council and the CUPE Ontario Pink Triangle Caucus had decided that one of their themes for that year's parade would be 'Queers Against Apartheid'. The same offer was extended this year by the District Council.
This is even confirmed in coverage of last year's contingent in the Zionist press. Read it for yourself.
It is common practice for groups to march within larger contingents (for example, different student groups marching within a university contingent, with only one application submitted for the umbrella group).
It is astonishing that, as a journalist, you would not confirm this allegation of "pushing in from the sidelines" with either QuAIA or anyone who actually attended Pride last year. The Executive Director was living in South Africa at the time, and none of the current Pride staff were working for the organization last year.
Even if QuAIA was not allowed to march with CUPE (and this was never communicated to either QuAIA or CUPE despite complaints from B'nai Brith last year), you should know that applications for Pride contingents are still being considered until May 31st. The fact that QuAIA has not submitted an application at this time does not mean they are "banned".
I find it interesting that you have appointed yourself the arbiter of what constitutes "a message supportive of the LGBTTIQQ2S community", not the community itself, and not the Pride Committee. No doubt you would have considered the gay anti-apartheid contingent in the parade in the 1980s to be a violation of this policy -- or is there just a double standard for Israel?
If anything was unclear up until now, if you had any journalistic integrity you would have changed the headline after the Pride Committee insisted it was inaccurate. The fact that you have refused to make this change demonstrates that you have no interest in the truth. The sole objective of you and your editors is apparently to act as an advocate for a position in this debate and distort reality.
This is outrageous - and not in a good way. There should be an immediate boycott of TD for trying to bully Pride and censor critics of Israel and City Council should be given hell over this.
Pro-Israel lobbyists threaten funding for Toronto's gay pride
Antonia Zerbisias: Jewish group slams anti-Israel gays
From the article:
So it's pretty rich when the language of gay oppression is used against Toronto's Pride parade, to be held June 28, by another group that purports to champion human rights.
Especially a group that is openly aligned with anti-gay rights Christian fundamentalists such as Charles McVety, Canada's most vocal lobbyist against same-sex marriage, and John Hagee, who claimed God sent Hurricane Katrina to stop "a homosexual parade."
This is what happened last week when B'nai Brith issued a news release asserting that the gay community's "agenda" was being "hijacked by anti-Israel agitators."
I always liked Antonia!
Guess B'nai Brith is discovering it fucked with the wrong people. People who can see a sneaky underhand attempt to supress free expression and human rights when they see it.
Dimant is wearing egg now.
So, what exactly happened (if anything)? The National Post just made shit up for no reason?
I mean, I know how screwed up corporate media and especially the NP, but this seems like a new low.
Part of the problem is Pride Toronto's apparent reluctance to speak clearly. I keep thinking I've understood where things are at, until I read things like this (from Antonia's article):
Instead, Dimant, who is on the faculty of McVety's Canada Christian College, and accepted an honorary doctorate from the school, told the National Post yesterday that Khaki should be subject to "disciplinary action" by Pride Toronto.
But no such action is forthcoming, Pride's executive director Tracey Sandilands assured me, insisting that, contrary to the report in the Post, "Where we stand at this point in time is, we are not taking a side. We are not going to ban anybody from the parade."
However, all entrants, as usual, must meet the legal criteria for participating.
Whatever all that means.
What a difference a day makes:
National Post: Anti-Zionist group can march, Pride Toronto says
I am sure this not done yet!
Pride Toronto's official statement is on its website. Isn't a picture worth a thousand words?
Pride Toronto's official statement is on its website. Isn't a picture worth a thousand words?
good - that is clear and the picture clearer!
good ______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!
A comment on the Toronto Star website: "I think they should stick to gay issues....."
Aren't all issues gay issues?
""Where we stand at this point in time is, we are not taking a side. We are not going to ban anybody from the parade."
However, all entrants, as usual, must meet the legal criteria for participating.
Whatever all that means."
I assume that means that the Pride committe is not taking sides with regard to the conflict in the Middle East or with regard to what this group stands for. I assume that if a gay group wanted to march IN FAVOUR of Israel's policies that would be just as allowable as a group marching against.
I wonder if there will be a Tamil presence on Pride Day??
I don't know. Does the Sri Lankan government use gay rights to justify its military actions? If so, maybe queer Tamils would protest during the Pride parade.
I've never heard of the Israeli government using gay rights as a justification for its military action - especially not when you have a governing coalition in Israel that is full of rightwing religious nuts who would be only two happy to make Israel as inhospitable to gays and lesbians as the Arab countries are.
The fundamental point that seems to be missed is that participants, representing whatever group of ideology they adhere to, is that they support Gay Pride, regardless of whatever differences they may have between each other.
If gays, lesbians, and others are not allowed to care about the Palestinians and Israel's treatment of them, who else is going to care about the LGBT community?
Rights for gays are not my problem. Why should I care about them?
Rights for Israelis and Palestinians are not my problem. Why should I care about them?
Rights for Israelis and Palestinains are not the LGBT community's problem. Why should they care about the Middle East?
I've never heard of the Israeli government using gay rights as a justification for its military action - especially not when you have a governing coalition in Israel that is full of rightwing religious nuts who would be only two happy to make Israel as inhospitable to gays and lesbians as the Arab countries are.
No but I have heard Zionists say how it's wrong for "progressives" to criticize Israel when it is more democratic, socially liberal and gay-friendly than its neighboring countries.
I think those are points to be considered and we should give credit where credit is due, but they don't make it wrong to criticize Israel. But if Israel really is so gay-positive then why doesn't the Israeli embassy sponsor a float in the parade and have the Israeli ambassador wear a bathing suit on it?
Yup so-called "progressive Zionism" is harder and harder to defend.
If you liked Antonia's column you should read her post on her Broadsides blog which significantly expands on and annotates her print column.
For instance:
So it's pretty rich when the language of gay oppression is used against Toronto's Pride parade, to be held June 28, by another group that purports to champion human rights.
Especially a group that is openly aligned with anti-gay rights Christian fundamentalists such as Charles McVety, Canada's most vocal lobbyist against same-sex marriage, and John Hagee, who claimed God sent Hurricane Katrina to stop "a homosexual parade."
A word about Christian Zionist fundies. They truly believe that in Armageddon and all that Revelations Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse stuff. Fine. Whatever helps you sleep at night, I guess. But they also believe that, after Jews have returned to Jerusalem, the end times come and everybody turns Christian.
Which means the end of the Jews, no? So I am not really sure why B'nai Brith would make common cause with these people.
Anyway ...
This is what happened last week when B'nai Brith issued a news release asserting that the gay community's "agenda" was being "hijacked by anti-Israel agitators.
Finally, the business of stifling dissent.
There have been a number of attempts this month by Jewish organizations to silence critics and criticism of Israel.
Judaism in Toronto past, by artist Reena Katz. (That's her in the photo.) Why? Because of her anti-Zionist politics. For what she thinks. For what she believes.
First, was the sudden act of disassociation by the Jewish Koffler Centre from an exhibit, one celebrating
Then, B'nai Brith appealed to Mayor David Miller to shut down Theatre Passe Muraille's production of Caryl Churchill's controversial Seven Jewish Children - A Play for Gaza, claiming it repeated blood libels. (The Guardian has a modest production video here.)
Also, Conservative MPP Peter Shurman, who represents a largely Jewish riding, filed a resolution asking that the Ontario legislature vote to condemn Israel Apartheid Week, as if it is the role of government to eliminate legitimate debate, as if Israel's supporters don't have plenty of outlets and avenues for putting forth their views, as if there aren't mechanisms in the law to deal with hate and discrimination should it exist.
Finally, there is an attempt by The Canadian Council for Israel and Jewish Advocacy to rally opposition against an academic conference looking at the possibility of a one-state solution, since a two-state solution seems all but impossible considering the Israeli settlement colonization of Palestinian lands. (The website for a similar conference has incredible maps. Check them out.)
It's all shut-up, shut-up, shut-up.
"
Just as an aside, that academic conference looks like it will have some great content. Trying to shut that down, along with everything else, sure shows up the CIJA as a lobby group against free speech.
Toronto queers speaking out against Israeli Apartheid (YouTube)
Thanks for posting this.
QAIA marched with a big banner in soldairity with Palestinian Queers. A big, well-received contingent.
There was also a large pro-Israel contingent marching with Israeli flags and "we support Israel" signs. it was way less fun than the Thailand float that came right after it though.
No clashes between the two groups, and no problems of any sort as far as I've heard. Pride seems to have handled the whole issue very well.
why can't these groups that dont even represent the jewish community (they sure as hell dont represent me) just leave pride alone. why do they have to have a say everything?
i've been subject to enough anti-semetic slurs not to want to repeat any, but its almost like bnai brith wants to control what everyone in the world does. maybe they should look at who they associate with first before criticizing the parade.
Queers come out against Israeli apartheid at Toronto Pride
M. Spector beat you to the post, Tor. Nyah nyah.
I think its good that people on both sides of the issue made an appearance in the parade. I said from the very start that I thought it was grossly inappropriate for B'nai B'rith - an organization that has never lifted a finger for gay rights and that is busy building alliances with religious right homophobic crackpots - to have the nerve to start lecturing Pride Toronto on what can and cannot be in the parade. That being said, if there are gays and lesbians who are pro-Israel and who want to express that sentiment - then that is the correct thing to do - as opposed to hiding behind the skirts of B'nai B'rith. Now it is out in the open that there are gays and lesbians - some Jewish and some not - who are pro-Palestinian and there are others who are pro-Israel and the fact that both groups can express their views peacefully is a good thing.
I thought I heard that B'nai Brith actually marched in the Pride Parade. I just can't see frank Diamond doing that.
No, according to the Canadian Jewish News it was Bernie Farber and Len Ruder of CJC.
http://www.cjnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17241&It...
Did the CJC participate in the parade? I think they have generally been a pretty gay-positive organization, even if Farber doesn't really seem to get what Pride is about.
Thanks for answering my question, Winnifred.
I doubted it was diamond
This didn't sit well with Shaindl Diamond, a Jewish graduate student at the University of Toronto. In an open letter to Apple, she wrote, "Now it seems that Kulanu is no longer a group for queer Jews - it is a group for queer Jews who have a specific political allegiance to the Israeli state."
Shaindle Diamond? Wouldn't it be a hoot if she was related to Frank Diamond?
Link to Rabble story.
A good sig to use in your messaging:
BOYCOTT ISRAEL COMPANY LIST
AOL Time Warner
Apax Partners & Co Ltd
Coca-Cola
Danone
Delta Galil
Disney
Estée Lauder
IBM
Johnson & Johnson
Kimberly-Clark
Lewis Trust Group Ltd
L'Oreal
Marks & Spencer
Nestle
News Corporation
Nokia
Revlon
Sara Lee
Selfridges
The Limited Inc
Home Depot
Intel
Starbucks
Timberland
McDonald's
Arsenal FC
I'll be sure to buy more products from all those companies. Thanks for posting this.
I'll even start cheering for Arsenal!
Right Wing Israeli Extremists Using Pride, Gay Rights to Justify Incursions into Arab Villages
http://www.alternet.org/story/140934
"Gay Pride marches are being exploited by rabidly homophobic extremists who plan to parade through Arab towns asserting their "Jewish Pride"..
I love that list of companies to be boycotted. Ok folks, no more Nokia cell phones (and Blackberrries should be added after Israel gave Mike Laseridis an award of merit), drop the "real thing", poochie no more Purina,who likes Starbucks anyway, no matter how much your children deserve Disneyland and no matter how much Children's Wish Foundation want to send kids there uh uh,use toilet paper for that nasty runny nose not kleenex, ....any computers linked to either AOL or IBM please send to the garbage bin once TO strike is over,...and I can do with less cheesecake...
A good sig to use in your messaging:
BOYCOTT ISRAEL COMPANY LIST
AOL Time Warner
Apax Partners & Co Ltd
Coca-Cola
Danone
Delta Galil
Disney
Estée Lauder
IBM
Johnson & Johnson
Kimberly-Clark
Lewis Trust Group Ltd
L'Oreal
Marks & Spencer
Nestle
News Corporation
Nokia
Revlon
Sara Lee
Selfridges
The Limited Inc
Home Depot
Intel
Starbucks
Timberland
McDonald's
Arsenal FC
Are all these companies Israeli owned?
What Stockholm said except I could never cheer for Arsenal.
But you could eat at McDonald's? Yech.
A good sig to use in your messaging:
BOYCOTT ISRAEL COMPANY LIST
On what basis, exactly, should these companies be boycotted (other than some of them are really awful evil multinationals, especially Coca-Cola and Nestle...)?
A good sig to use in your messaging:
BOYCOTT ISRAEL COMPANY LIST
Are all these companies Israeli owned?
Hmmm, there has been a an anti-Israel anti-Jewish boycott in place by Arab states for decades against foreign companies.
Must have been something on Babble already protesting this egregious violation of rights.... I just can't find it.
Thanks for the list of companies to patronize. I didn't know they were Israeli owned. But since I support gay rights, I'll support Israeli -owned companies. Aren't many other countries in that part of the world who support gay rights, and that's a fact!
I aprticularly enjoy Israeli wine too -- the Golan heights is an up and coming wine region. Delish.
Shaindle Diamond? Wouldn't it be a hoot if she was related to Frank Diamond?
Dimant, not Diamond
Thanks for the list of companies to patronize. I didn't know they were Israeli owned. But since I support gay rights, I'll support Israeli -owned companies. Aren't many other countries in that part of the world who support gay rights, and that's a fact!
That straw man is dressed up in fascist finery...
Just noticed NoDifferenceParty beat me to this one. Strange that it doesn't faze the supporters of Israeli apartheid in the least.
There are assholes living in israel, there are assholes living in Palestinian territories, there are assholes living in Canada. But Israel recognizes gay rights and is completely unique for that part of the world. I can't imagine what pro-palestinian marchers would have to contribute to this sort of parade...
that part of the world.
Please define.
There are assholes living in israel, there are assholes living in Palestinian territories, there are assholes living in Canada.
Wow. Clearly you lack a sense of irony.
ETA:
There are GLBT people in Palestine as well. I'm rather certain that they'd tell you that your support of apartheid trumps your claim of support for their cause.
that part of the world.
Please define.
The Middle East. Gay rights are not respected there. If you support gay rights, then you should support israel. Only country in the Middle East that respects women's rights, gay rights, and the rights of labour unions.
The Middle East. Gay rights are not respected there. If you support gay rights, then you should support israel. Only country in the Middle East that respects women's rights, gay rights, and the rights of labour unions.
Really? Israel respects labour unions?
It seems that queers actually living in the Middle East disagree with you about supporting Israeli apartheid.
From the website of Helem, a Lebanese LGBT group:
From the website of Aswat, a Palestinian gay women's group:
Actually, Israel does respect labour unions, provided they are not actual labour unions but racist agents of colonialism.
ie Israel only respects unions which, in your informed opinion, aren't unions because they don't follow the IWW model of unionism.
that part of the world.
Please define.
The Middle East. Gay rights are not respected there. If you support gay rights, then you should support israel. Only country in the Middle East that respects women's rights, gay rights, and the rights of labour unions.
Heh heh. Nothing so far has shown us that Israel is more culturally tollerant than its Arab neighbours to LGBT rights. What they do have, which Palestinians don't is a functioning legal system which actively prohibits the excessess of the rabid homophobes, unlike in Gaza and the West Bank, where the juducial and enforcement systems put in place by local authorities are blown to bits at will by the IDF. Therefore, those who murder or brutalize gay people may actually suffer the consequences of their acts, if only through the application of due process and law, whereas no such real possibility exists among Palestinians, because Israel routinely acts to degrade civil society in the territories by making police, militia and other forces which might maintain basic civil order, the primary targets of their campaign to de-civilize and impoversh Palestinians.
The recent objections of Mayor of Jerusalem and the sitting Minister of Tourism who went to court to prevent a gay pride march in Jerusalem, shows exactly how deep Israel's commitement to gay rights is. One really only has to ask why the Minister of Tourism was not immediatly asked to resign by the government after bringing his court challenge against the parade to get a clear picture of how rampant homophobia is close to the official norm. Even our own Stephen Harper would have forced the resignation of such a Minister. Nothing of the sort is even brought up in Neteyahoos Israel.
Good of you to bring up the issue of Israeli Unions and their tollerance for it is indeed true that the Jerusalem fire-fighters union joined in the fun, and succeeded in having half of these Gay pride celebrations cancelled due to their strike action. Or is being anti-racist and against homophobia an attribute to be found only on the radical anarachist "wobbly" left?
The fact is that bigotry in Israel is the rule, as opposed to the unfortunate exception. Why this is, is not hard to determine, since the state is overtly founded on racism and prejudice.
the usual blah blah blah....
There are assholes living in israel, there are assholes living in Palestinian territories, there are assholes living in Canada....
At every turn it seems that nothing can be swung without encountering one.
Does this mean that you're using 'blah' from now on instead of the usual responses? Are you getting tired of using full sentences?
Does this mean that you're using 'blah' from now on instead of the usual responses? Are you getting tired of using full sentences?
I think it's the dummy text inputted when the RSS feed from NDP headquarters is down.
the usual blah blah blah....
The usual non-arguement.
Fact 1) Minster of Tourism of Israel tried to block gay pride in Jerusalem by legal means and was not made to resign.
Fact 2) Mayor of Jerusalem joined the Minister of Tourism in making a legal challenge to Gay Pride In Jerusalem.
Fact 3) The Jerusalem Firefighters Union went on strike to prevent the parade from taking place.
Conclusion: Israeli society is rife with prejudice, at least on the same level as its Arab Neighbors, from top to bottom. Such attitudes are accepted by the ruling aparatus, and possibly encouraged. It is very hard not to conclude that Israel's "liberal" laws around LGBT rights are little more than an official fig leaf designed to put Israel in a good light, while it continues to crush any manifestation of coherent law and order among Palestinians while subjecting them to nearly constant terror through force, supressing all rights for all Palestinian straight or otherwise.
This is so absurd, that I burst out laughing reading it. Are you sure you don't write comedy skits that are supposed to be satire?
It is a self evident conclusion based on the observable facts. I don't find it funny at all. A shame that you would make light of it, nor offer any worthwhile commentary to the contrary. How thin is your case? Very, based on your snide and vapid contributions to this thread.
Arguing with you would be like arguing with someone who believed that the world was flat. Its a waste of time.
Pejorative. Ad hominem.
This is so absurd, that I burst out laughing reading it. Are you sure you don't write comedy skits that are supposed to be satire?
I thought I saw Cueball's credit on the new sitcom this fall, the sequel....."little Masquerade On the Prairies", no?
Peech. You can do better than Stockholm, surely?
The fact is that bigotry in Israel is the rule, as opposed to the unfortunate exception. Why this is, is not hard to determine, since the state is overtly founded on racism and prejudice.
So when was the last time someone was executed in Israel for being gay? That happens elsewhere in the Middle East, you know...
It's not good, obviously, that there are groups who are opposed to the Pride Parade in Jerusalem but it's completely ridiculous to compare this (harsh bigotry) to what gays and lesbians would face in surrounding countries (death). If I were gay, I would rather be in Israel than say, Gaza, Syria, Saudi Arabia, or Egypt (to name just a few).
There is one angle in all of this that has been overlooked. Isn't it wonderful that in this day and age both sides in Canada in the dispute in the Middle East are vying with one another over who can be more "gay-positive". It wasn't so many years ago that even watching the Pride parade from the sidelines was a radical political act - and mainstream Jewish organizations (let alone mainstream Muslim organizations) would not have been caught dead anywhere near a gay pride march. Flash forward to the Pride parade of 2009 and we have a grand marshall who is a Muslim gay activist who founded a Muslim gay organization AND we have also people like Bernie Farber and a lot of straight pro-Israel people marching in the pride parade to bolster the pro-Israel LGBTQ contingent - we can question their motives - but in the meantime, by going to the parade they are still lending their support. Instead of being the social pariahs they were a generation ago - now the LGBTQ community is seen as important enough that both sides want to curry favour with it! and this is a good thing.
perhaps they just did not have time to get the funding pulled?
meanwhile, they ended up marching in the same parade as "queers against isreali apartheid" - its all good.
ie Israel only respects unions which, in your informed opinion, aren't unions because they don't follow the IWW model of unionism.
When did I ever say that I don't consider unions which don't follow the IWW model of unionism to be unions? I never said that I don't consider the CAW, CUPE, CUPW, Steelworkers, IBEW, etc. to be unions.
All I said was that Histadrut doesn't really follow the "union" model of unionism and follows the "racist agent of colonialism" model.
The fact is that bigotry in Israel is the rule, as opposed to the unfortunate exception. Why this is, is not hard to determine, since the state is overtly founded on racism and prejudice.
So when was the last time someone was executed in Israel for being gay? That happens elsewhere in the Middle East, you know...
I don't know that. Please list the criminal convictions and consequent executions for the "crime of being gay." As far as I know some persons have been executed for the crime of raping young boys. Wether or not those convictions are just, or moral, that is not the same as executing people for "being" gay.
These are not just "groups" that opposed gay pride in Jerusalem, they are state officials, and the institutions upon which the society is founded. From top to bottom, unions, the mayor, right up to cabinet. Were it not for the thin veneer of the law, it is quite clear that homophobia is rampant and tollerated in official circles, and that these homophobes are actively working to undermine the laws.
ie Israel only respects unions which, in your informed opinion, aren't unions because they don't follow the IWW model of unionism.
When did I ever say that I don't consider unions which don't follow the IWW model of unionism to be unions? I never said that I don't consider the CAW, CUPE, CUPW, Steelworkers, IBEW, etc. to be unions.
All I said was that Histadrut doesn't really follow the "union" model of unionism and follows the "racist agent of colonialism" model.
OK, I'll bite... please define what you think the difference is between the two "models"...
These are not just "groups" that opposed gay pride in Jerusalem, they are state officials, and the institutions upon which the society is founded. From top to bottom, unions, the mayor, right up to cabinet. Were it not for the thin veneer of the law, it is quite clear that homophobia is rampant and tollerated in official circles, and that these homophobes are actively working to undermine the laws.
Wow, sounds like Canada under the Conservatives then. I guess we're all a bunch of bigoted homophobes... you and me too by the way because we tolerate the government. Still, other surrounding countries in the Middle East don't even recognize the right of gays and lesbians to live so the fact that there is a plurality of views in Israel with regard to gay pride parades and the like is some progress. I wonder what they're planning for the pride parade in Gaza Strip... maybe parade floats with dancing men in animal print burkhas...
These are not just "groups" that opposed gay pride in Jerusalem, they are state officials, and the institutions upon which the society is founded. From top to bottom, unions, the mayor, right up to cabinet. Were it not for the thin veneer of the law, it is quite clear that homophobia is rampant and tollerated in official circles, and that these homophobes are actively working to undermine the laws.
Wow, sounds like Canada under the Conservatives then. I guess we're all a bunch of bigoted homophobes... you and me too by the way because we tolerate the government. Still, other surrounding countries in the Middle East don't even recognize the right of gays and lesbians to live so the fact that there is a plurality of views in Israel with regard to gay pride parades and the like is some progress. I wonder what they're planning for the pride parade in Gaza Strip... maybe parade floats with dancing men in animal print burkhas...
Wow, homphobic stereotyping and racist stereotyping all in one classic comment. Surprised you didn't throw in a camel while you were at it. More stereotyped slander too, again, which "Middle East don't even recognize the right of gays and lesbians to live?"
I don't know that. Please list the criminal convictions and consequent executions for the "crime of being gay." As far as I know some persons have been executed for the crime of raping young boys. Wether or not those convictions are just, or moral, that is not the same as executing people for "being" gay.
These are not just "groups" that opposed gay pride in Jerusalem, they are state officials, and the institutions upon which the society is founded. From top to bottom, unions, the mayor, right up to cabinet. Were it not for the thin veneer of the law, it is quite clear that homophobia is rampant and tollerated in official circles, and that these homophobes are actively working to undermine the laws.
Although I agree with your analysis of Faber and Minions and that homophobia is rampant in Israel, the International Gay and Lesbian Association does report that homosexuality is punishable by death in Iran, Mauritania, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Yemen and parts of Nigeria and Somalia.
--
"One law for the lion and the ox is oppression" - Blake
In Iran it is punishable by death to be gay? Or is it that homophobic state prosecutors cook up charges against people on capital crimes in order to prosecute them?
Wow, homphobic stereotyping and racist stereotyping all in one classic comment. Surprised you didn't throw in a camel while you were at it. More stereotyped slander too, again, which "Middle East don't even recognize the right of gays and lesbians to live?"
I am sorry if it came out that way because I certainly didn't mean it as such. I was simply trying to point out the absurdity of your position. There isn't much of a debate on whether to hold a gay pride parade in Gaza City. And for gays and lesbians in Jerusalem, it is a fact that they are better off under Israel than they would have been otherwise gay pride parade issues notwithstanding. Saudi Arabia just executes them, for example.
And I am pointing out that there is a difference between the letter of the law and how laws are applied, in effect through there application. For example, Mexico doesn't really have a lot of explicit homphobic laws, however, this does not mean that homophobia is not rampant in the society, and indeed in the organs of the state, and that homphbic practices of the judicial system undermine the legal code.
We are talking about two seperate things: Cultural tollerance, and the law. There is not a lot of evidence that Israel is particularly tollerant culturally, in say comparison to Egypt, or Jordan, or among Palestinian as you assert.
Your "test case" suggesting that no gay pride event could be held in Gaza strip, simply does not apply, because there is no judicial system in place to make a comparison of laws, and there application. It is not even a "state", and indeed, Israel has done everything in its power to prevent even a modicum of civil order to appear there, to protect even the basic rights of any individual, at all, let alone a "state", with a "constitution" that might someday enshrine the rights of sexual minorities.
In fact Israel does everything in its power to prevent such a state to arise, and this is more or less state policy and has been for years.
Maybe at next year's Pride parade, in addition to having a contingent from the Canadian Jewish Congress and people waving Israeli flags - we can also have a parade contingent from the Iranian embassy and the saudi embassy and maybe have some fundamentalist Muslim clerics doing a conga line on a giant float - all to educate us on how gay-positive an independent Palestine would be in comparison both with Israel and with neighbouring Arab countries!
In Iran it is punishable by death to be gay? Or is it that homophobic state prosecutors cook up charges against people on capital crimes in order to prosecute them?
Both, I think. According to ILGA (google it) simply the act is a crime punishable by death.
"There is not a lot of evidence that Israel is particularly tollerant culturally, in say comparison to Egypt, or Jordan."
Well, let's see, openly gay men and lesbians serve in the Israeli army, gay bars by the dozen operate openly in Tel Aviv, Isreali courts have ruled in favor of gay relationship recognition, gays and lesbians have served in the Knesset, the gay pride parade in Tel Aviv rivals the one in Toronto in terms of attendance and enthusiasm, there are neighbourhoods in Tel Aviv that are as gay as Cabbagetown. Now MAYBE there is something analogous to all of this in Syria - if so please educate me.
While its true that there is a minority of hateful religious freaks in Jerusalem that are still living in the 13th century - but honestly, that is akin to saying that we should ignore the fact that we have gay marriage in Canada and gay rights enshrined in the Charter of Rights etc...because there are still a few homophobes living in Hutterite communes in southern Alberta!
"Your "test case" suggesting that no gay pride event could be held in Gaza strip, simply does not apply, because there is no judicial system in place to make a comparison of laws, and there application. It is not even a "state", and indeed, Israel has done everything in its power to prevent even a modicum of civil order to appear there, to protect even the basic rights of any individual, at all."
Why don't you call up "Canadian Friends of Hamas" and ask them whether they would support a gay rights march in Gaza City - or whether they would be more likely to want to see all the participants machine-gunned?
Why don't you find somewhere some statements or other outlining the Hamas position on gay rights, as opposed to just using your personal prejudice as a guide as to what you think they would say. I would be interested to see what the official position is. Any links? Background? Anything at all?
Hamas is a Muslim fundamentalist militia. Now, if you have evidence, that they represent some sort of enlightened liberal version of fundementalist Islam (a contradiction in terms) that is the Muslim equivalent of the United Church of Canada - then I'd like to see it. Otherwise, the weight of evidence is that 100% of the time FUNDAMENTALIST Islam (along with fundamentalist Christianity and fundamentalist Judaism) = death to sexual minorities.
Hamas is more complicated than that. It is a political party. Relatively speaking, a big tent political party. I am sure it contains fundamentalist Islamics who are homophobic in the extreme. It's also a pretty stressed political party (getting bombed will do that). I have no real idea how it would behave on this issue under less stress, but using them as a schoolyard "but he's worse" comparison with Farber et al is exceedingly distasteful.
I take it we shouldn't hold our breath...
Maybe at next year's Pride parade, in addition to having a contingent from the Canadian Jewish Congress and people waving Israeli flags - we can also have a parade contingent from the Iranian embassy and the saudi embassy and maybe have some fundamentalist Muslim clerics doing a conga line on a giant float - all to educate us on how gay-positive an independent Palestine would be in comparison both with Israel and with neighbouring Arab countries!
How'd this get so long?