Rich, White Football star pleads guilty to sexual assualt and gets...no punishment

I know, I know.  Ugh.  But donchaknow the Riders are gawds hereabouts?  *cue banjo music and chewing tobacco*

The Riders have broad based community support, IOW the fix was always in.

reminds me of a certain '''black''' football player who was rich and got 'no punishment'....

i just happened to notice the parallels and how it doesn't have to do with colour.... perhaps that upsets you?

sometimes questions reveal built it assumptions or worse.... it is always informative seeing how others respond to others....

Is this guy any relation to the Tillman that Bill Maher idolized?  That guy was also rich, white and a football player. 

Anyway, I wouldn't want to comment until I had read the trial transcripts.

Indeed.

Thanks.  Didn't read the story.  Obviously.

Yes, I realize they weren't the same person. :)

My question was:  Are they related?

I trust your post is not directed to the one before it.  I can't piss off two babblers in the same day.  I just can't.

Sorry G, cross posted, meant for sandgnome.

using the word 'sandgnome' looks a bit disingenuous to me... regardless, my comment was as stated and i do enjoy finding connections in common with others...

rp quote "If I actually thought you believed we agreed and weren't being disingenuous, perhaps." 

Holy fuck, you guys reach more than plastic-man.  You don't want to know the fine details I'm sure.

2004 Ktown, really?  HA!

further to my previous posts, I am of the opinion that Tillman should be sentenced in accordance to his crime. It was someone else who brought up rich and white.

Well, your posts aren't here Ktown and do you think he was sentenced properly in accordance with his crime?

And your posts in this thread had nothing to do with that.

I think you'd have a hard time but could likely find something if that's your balliwick...

It's interesting that we are able to get 30 posts along with people passing judgement on either side and we have yet to see any discussion of the specific facts of this case.

I've seen plenty of facts, including his kids witnessed this.  Perhaps read before responding.   I'm ready to flounce this place.

Sorry to have to post the facts.  Read people before you make comments.  This shit hurts people.

Thanks for posting that, RP.  I didn't have the facts.  I was under the impression he walked away from a jury trial.  So, thank you.  I'm getting less outraged as the night wears on.

Hopefully, i'll walk away less outraged too, have a great one G. Muffin, I'm tired.

Not with that analogy, no.

But good night, RP.  Have a good sleep.  And see you here tomorrow. 

Quite possibly so.  Weren't you off to bed?

Are you under the impression I'm a Randian?  'cause I ain't.

Well, there's still the matter of the privileged, evryone;s carefully sidestepping.

If it's so important, RP, then why don't you clearly state what offends you?

Perfect example, RP.  So ... what are these apologies for capitalism to which you refer?

Translate that...

What makes you think that Sandstone is white?  And whose important voice am I abusing?  And what does any of this have to do with economics?  And the OJ analogy does work once you realize that the issue isn't colour.

i make this post, as the moderators seem to have a habit of closing the threads when i have shown up, although i can't claim responsibiliity for this and perhaps it is just a coincidence... what gets considered on or off topic seems to be held in the eye of the moderators here from what i can tell... this will be my last post on this thread.. consider my posts a small station identification break from the topic at hand which incidentally might be a topic that keeps on reappearing here at rabble in different guises, if you know what i mean...

A mod has shown up. Clear the decks!

A kind gentle reminder that when a thread goes wonky in the wee hours of the morning (yes, most mods are based in the Bastion of Central Canada known as Toronto) there is very little chance a mod will happen upon the thread. In general, given our limits as, you know, humans, we are not likely to see wonky threads at all unless we happen upon them, which is why emailing us or flagging the post as offensive are recommended.

Not that I'm calling this thread wonky. Just sayin.

....

Okay, now to the delightful thread topic.

First, if the OP has a link, and it's a news item: Read The Link Please!!  There are limited "facts" available to us, but we need to at least know the MSM's version of what's out there to have even a vaguely coherent discussion about it.

Having read the thread now a few times, it was sandstone who, at post #5 who brought in the comparison to OJ.

One could  argue Le T brought in race from the very beginning, by calling Tillman "white" in the OP and the thread title. One would be wrong however if one were to argue that.

Why? Because Le T is doing a classic, smart (and effective) anti-racist technique. Naming a person's whiteness makes visible the fact that when folks are white, from the media's presentation, their race is not named which reiterates the racist premise of whiteness as the norm, whiteness as "not mattering". Making it visible, (by naming Tillman's whiteness) especially when connected to criminal behaviour, does a small part to smash the assumption that most violent crimes are committed by men of colour.

Doing this irks some folks, though.

....

From a legal perspective there are few comparisons. OJ pleaded not guilty and was found not guilty after a lengthy public criminal trial. He was then found guilty at a civil trial.

Tillman pleaded guilty, thus there was no trial. This alone is a huge difference. OJ also killed two people, another huge difference.

That's the extent of my ability to speak to the legal differences.

....

The one parallel that nobody has made yet is that both crimes involve violence against women.

....

If one cares to, anyone who thinks there are viable parallels to make about race and racism here, I strongly suggest you look up the statistics on crime for both the US and Canada. The sentencing and other history can be very clearly seen, because of systemic racism, that Black folks/ folks of colour/Aboriginal folks get harsher, longer and more frequent sentences and punishment than do white folks for similar crimes. This is not the ravings of an anti-racist activist, this is known by most in the justice sector, including those of us who interact with that sector. The facts are out there. If one chooses to not access facts that will elucidate the situation, there's not much I can do about that. GIYF. Google Is Your Friend.

....

So, can we return to the thread topic? Or shall we continue to the back and forth? 

Oh, and just for fun, here's the babble policy again:

As usual, Maysie, I'll defer on issues of racism.  I base that on the quality of your posts, not the colour of our skin.

However, the Pie has a few specialties and one of them is the law.  IANAL but I understand legal concepts and how they are applied.  As the daughter of a philosopher, I also understand the nature of arguments.  As the daughter of teachers, I understand how important analogies are and why we use them. 

OJ/Tillman stands.  You are wrong.  The trial/lack of trial, found not guilty/pleaded guilty distinctions are irrelevant.

Loved your point on the thread title.  Why isn't it "Rich, White Man pleads guilty ...."  Only two of those descriptors help in framing this debate.  As evidenced by OJ Simpson. 

Stargazer, we are disagreeing on this point.  Sandstone is the underdog in this thread.  He (I think) took that battle on.  My knee jerk reaction is to support the underdog.  But with the benefit of time, I actually support what he is saying not just his status here.  babble is a good place but not a great place.  Not yet.

I think what we're coming to, babblers, is a slow and painful realization that I'm not "progressive" and that I don't consider that word an accolade anyway.  Gordon Campell is a Liberal in this topsy-turvy world we live in.

Why should I continue to participate when I have the email addies of most of my favourite babblers, banned or otherwise?  What's in it for me, Maysie?

ETA:  I can be reached at goodbyepie (at) yahoo (dot) ca

and this is as good a time as any to say goodbye.

With best wishes,

The Pie

I missed that gem from sandstone.

sandstone, using language comparing babble and babblers to Nazis has earned you a week off.

remind, you know not to call babblers "fucking asshats". Stop it.

And yes, the larger message from this story is that violence against women doesn't really matter, especially if you're a public figure. And the truth is, there are so few convictions from sexual assault charges anyways, that this story is particularly horrific.

Umm, is this an across the board standard?
I've seen people here comparing others to Nazi's or making off handed reference and no one seemed to care. I get the feeling it's more of a sometimes enforced thing depending on who is making the comment.

What a horrific story though! I can't understand how people fucking get away with this shit. Sleeping pills and didn't know what he was doing?
So if I drink too much and technically pass out at the wheel and wipe out a family then I'm not really in control of my actions?
I know far too many women who have had their lives shattered by assholes like this. It's such a life altering crime it makes me physically sick to think about it.

Does anyone have any thoughts on what would be an appropriate prison term for this guy?

Why don't you take first stab at it Sven?

Actually Svend received a CONDITIONAL discharge and a probation term and not an ABSOLUTE discharge. But then there is no comparing the severity of the crime of stealing property compared to merely traumatizing a young woman for years.

So gay white man gets far more punsihment for "inadvertently" stealing a ring and Tillman gets NADA for sexually assaulting a young woman in his home who was hired to care for his children.

And, at the risk of being to radical for the new babble, i would offer that his race and sexual orientation helped him walk away from this one. I cannot believe that a Saskatchewan court would have let a Native man or gay man walk away from pleading guilty to sexually assualting a teenager. And I say this not to take away from the sexism that guides legal proceedings around men assualting women.

It was the judge's sentencing decision. Even though this asshole plead guilty to sexually assualting his 15 year old employee infront of his kids while high on drugs he gets a walk. He will not even have a criminal record. Someone who is caught with less than a 1/4 of weed would get a harsher sentence, easily. It is really a horrible example of the double standards that exist in order to make our (no)justice system operate for certain groups of people at the expense of others.

No, I have a good answer but I want to make sure Sven is being genuine not baiting dudone.  What's your take?

Poignant, remind and Le T.  So sad.

If a person thinks a wrong-doer should be punished for an act (whether it's this guy's act or any other act), I think it's a fair question for someone to ask: What punishment would that person like to see imposed on the wrong-doer?

ETA: Whoops!! Cross-posted with oldgoat and about five other people!!

Sven, just as a layman, even a conditional discharge would have been much more appropriate.  Why not make sure the guy behaves for a year or two?  Then there's the matter mentioned above of how a pot smoker likely faces more serious consequences than a white, male predator.  Can you see the problem?

But most are also not sexual predators, so I don't know what you're trying to deflect?  It's cool that pot smoking is treated more harshly than sex crimes?  Think about it. 

That is all I was asking for: People's opinions on what might have been a just punishment.

Does anyone think that a "conditional discharge" would be too light?

I wish if people really want to discuss things like an appropriate sentence they would give their own views.  So Sven do you think he deserves punishment and what punishment if any do YOU suggest?

I think that a 2 year probation term and a requirement to take some training on violence against women in our society would be appropriate.  And 600 hours of community service picking up garbage on the sides of a highway with a sign on his back (like a sports jersey) saying his name  and "I sexually assaulted a young woman."

Obviously, I have been but have your fun at womens' expense.  Fuck.

Why the fuck was he taking sleeping pills anyway?  I take sleeping pills sometimes, find it works better to take them when you are planning to go to sleep? 

Yes, getting zero punishment doesn't seem right. But, I have no idea what degree of punishment would be just -- hence, my question.

The devil made him do it.  All medication have warnings as well, so if you fall asleep at the wheel from taking the drugs that he did which almost certainly had drowsiness warnings should he be let off?

He didn't pass out he was awake when he assaulted that young woman.  I don't fucking believe for a minute that it impaired his reasoning enough to legally come under the defence of not criminally responsible or he would have plead that instead of pleading guilty.  The judge gave him the gold star treatment apparently without any medical evidence of whether he was actually effected by the drugs enough to not be held criminally responsible. IMO they likely run in the same circles and I his lawyer had a wink and a nod about the outcome prior to the guilty plea.

I agree Krop! It was like a throwback to the good old boy days of "well no one was really hurt so why ruin this upstanding citizens life?"

Yes, I know.  And the fact that he was behaving "in a way that he otherwise wouldn't" is what got him off.  So my question becomes why would any reasonable person take sleeping pills so early in the day, before attending a meeting and then going (driving??) home to his children.  Sleeping pills??  I can see the muscle relaxants, or pain pills, but we are supposed to believe that he popped a double dose of sleeping pills at such a strange time of day.  Seems like bullshit to me, but I think if you look into side effects of the various drugs he had to choose from, the sleeping pills are the ones that would give him the best excuse.

Then ask a mod instead of pretending you are one

Fixed the formatting, and reclosing - it's those darn quote tags!