Were the burning cop cars a staged event?
I know it's been discussed in other threads but this topic cries for one on its own.
I have watched a number of Youtube videos and the CTV raw footage of the vandalism. And I am inclined to dismiss most mastermind conspiracy theories as silliness.
But those two cop cars, abandoned for whatever reason - reasons that are never discussed - just seem to be a little too convienient. This is in a city, in an area, that has way too many cops for the occasion, many kitted out in the latest in riot gear that make the whole scene look like a bad Stars Wars spoof.
Where were all these cops when the vandals started to trash the cop cars? It was hardly spontaneous anger that erupted. The vandalism occured at a rather liesurely pace. Most bystanders had that had cameras or phones and were busy taking pictures because they could not believe the audacity of these goons - and they fully expected some heavily armed police officers to show up at anytime.
But that never happened.
And let me make a guess at what else is never going to happen. The cops are never going to catch these perps, especially the ones who trashed the cars and set them on fire. It does not matter that there is overwhelming video evidence and eye witnesses accounts of the event.
Some how this will all be forgotten in a long and obscure investigation. Don't expect a public inquiry, don't expect an investigation. If these perps were not cops themselves, or seconded from some other security intelligence unit, they were certainly known by police, and were quite certain that they were not going to be arrested by any of them.
Is there an invetigation happening? Why were those cars abondoned in the first place? Has any of these people been identified?
Quite a master stroke of anarchy in a $1 billion sercured environment.
The destruction of the cars was staged to justify martial law in Toronto with mass arrests to serve two purposes: 1) To tell Canadians you have no real civil liberties. Constitutional rights are a mirage suspended anytime a tin pot dictator such as Chief Bully Bliar decides to lift the curtain. 2) To demonstrate to the US and China that Canada can present as repressive a regime as any in the world.
(edited to be less provocative (and spelling. Always spelling.))
Without getting into the larger debate, I will focus on specific incident that is documented on video.
There is the video going around of the red haired, unmasked guy smashing up the cop car while a couple of other unmasked people join in. To date, I know of only one person--the homeless guy who gets in the front seat-- who has been arrested over this incident. There was even an article about his court appearance soon after the video began making the rounds. As for the red hair guy, nothing.
I'll say this about the unamed red haired guy. If he ever shows up in any community meetings without having been so much as arrested over this incident, people should steer clear of the guy. Why? Ask yourself this; How many legitimate activists do you know who are video taped committing a crime against police property but never jailed or even pursued over it? I don't know a single one myself. Just saying.
Most likely the unmasked not-a-care-in-the-world vandals attacking the police cars are out of towners.
...here from Montebello for a wild weekend?
In answer to the thread title, yes.
Who was the unmasked guy? A mercenary. Maybe a cop, but more likely hired from a "private contractor."
That's how the Merkins and the Mafia and the Hell's Angels do it, after all.
It even stank on CBC - which made a lot of hay out of very little action - at first glance; more, each time they ran it. Thank heaven, no circles an' arrows an' a paragraph on the back o' each one, saying what each one was.... Of-bloody-course it was staged! The real demonstrators refused to do anything provocative, so Plan B was activated. Reality tv.
Of course it was. Next question? ;)
To add fuel to the fire, here is a video that claims to debunk the idea that the cops let their own cars burn
Seems obvious to me. Yes. But I think they were well-taken bait rather than the work of confederates.
I think things may get a lot hotter than burning police cars which were obviously a set up, the whole thing was a trap so that peaceful Canadians who still believed they were free could be taught a lesson and the rest of us who are paying attention might get the lesson too. Do you want to wake to the police and a gun in your face?
I maintain that we are only free as long as we do not appear to jeopordize the status quo, from this past week we can see that those who make the definition enjoy narrowing it and now simply being where you are not wanted is enough that you are no longer free.
The whole thing was a set up. I would not be surprised to know that the detention centre was a study in how quickly you can break a human being and with the guards who the torturers and cowards are.
To add fuel to the fire, here is a video that claims to debunk the idea that the cops let their own cars burn
You're asking me to watch that twice? LP, it's all over between us. ;)
These days, it's hard to know whom to believe. I even find myself doubting the veracity of green lips. He doesn't explain much...
Looks like we've got this year's Reichstag Fire.
I'm not making any claims about the burning of the cars, but the video with the unmasked, and still running free youtube star, seems really fishy.
I know when there have been small scale riots in our area, the police always release videos of those caught on video and ask the public help in identifying them. This guy appears to be getting special treatment and I'm wondering why.
To add fuel to the fire, here is a video that claims to debunk the idea that the cops let their own cars burn
Yes, we were already treated to that disgusting crap by Cytizen H before he decided to erase himself from here.
Ok- saw the video. Not really impressed.
I am not sure how much I should care if the police abandoned the cars to be trashed or actually staged the trashing themselves.
I remain more interested in the implications of a public hoax with the Premier of the Province in on it - misleading Ontarians about new limits to their rights. I am interested in understanding what effect that had-- did some people become more angry and more violent as a result with civil liberties apparently suspended? Or did more people stay away after being told they would not have their normal rights? Or both?
I am not so sure that the police would need to stage any violence having had the circumstances so perfectly set up such that no other result was possible. Once the cars were set alight -- I can see a motive in responding slowly to let the media have their fill. Hard to say what all happened-- maybe it is as the police seem to want us to believe -- that they were so incompetent that they simply got caught unawares and did not know what to do. Hard to imagine a scenario that does not justify a public inquiry-- even the best scenario from the police point of view leaves serious questions-- was it a conspiracy or were they that incompetent? Do you have another choice?
I think the issue here is not so much the ongoing speculation but the need for an inquiry that we can trust.
The Premier is out to lunch on this -- completely out of touch. His party, following the allegations, backed up by video tape, lose their moral authority to govern this province when they say they are not interested in knowing what really happened. They cannot be trusted on anything when they stick to the line that nothing went wrong, and if anything did-- it is not worth apologizing for or even investigating in an open manner. These people do not deserve to govern. The people of Ontario need to tell them that if we want our civil liberties to matter in the future.
Yes, you watch, they will argue that 20 000 cops and a billion dollars in security expenditures could not possibly stop 100 kids in bandanas, and the public will buy it. All they have to do is offer some petty, token admission of the most minor sort of failing (without actually taking any responsibility). I don't know what they'll come up with, but it's bound to be the kind of admission intended to generate sympathy rather than own up to responsibility.
They all had to take a pee just then?
I saw the footage of the police cars being set on fire, and I am absolutely convinced that it was a calculated move by the authorities, who knew what would happen when they left them there, and counted on it to provide a nice sound bite for the News coverage.
I tried counting how many times I heard the reference to 'police cars burning' on the various news reports in the days afterwards, and on every newscast the phrase 'police cars burning' was sure to be included.
Whomever stage-managed that little event by the authorities should have the cost of replacing the cars taken out of however much they were paid to stage it.
Was going through some old newspapers and found this:
Wanted: Some Extra Police Officers for G 20 Summit
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/toronto/story.html?id=3060931
"Officers from that city's force [Montreal] and others, were told they could book their vacations during the summit dates and earn double-time pay while working 12 hour shifts for nine days straight in the days leading up to and during the summit...'It's a good deal for us,' said one officer. 'We'll make some good money.'"
Follow the money - it's always a big part of it all and it certainly was for G 20
Where the burning cop cars a stagged event? I would think so as police where out full force and in some places there was an armed officer for every unarmed civilian so makes you kinda wonder how the protestors got close enough to set the vehicles a flame without being caught and stopped? It makes more sense that the police staged the event themselfs as to let officers go full force on the crowds of innocent bystanders.
Follow the money as Security companies and policing are the fastest growing Industry in Canada as its an Industry worth billions and billions and growing leaps and bonds as just look at the money to be made locking Canadians up rather than providing them with education and training. Instead lets just sell educated immigrants an over priced house to keep the bubble from bursting as politicians blow a lot of hot air into housing market. This way government has all this extra cash it has saved from educating and training and provinding afforable housing to Canadians as homelessness is on the rise as money is used instead to lock Canadians up as its an industry worth billions and billions. aS look at the money that can be made shoving Canadians in tiny little cells they now get to call home as Canadians are now in place where the training provided will only get them back in jail.
Following the money back to the security industrial complex would naturally lead to the possibility that the BB are sponsored by the security "industry" itself ... The tobacco industry would smuggle their own product over the border to make sure Canadians had a ready supply of tax free smokes ... it wouldn't be a conspiracy theory to want to check into the possibility that the BB is working for the industry to make sure the industry provides a service that the public is fooled into believing it NEEDS.
Financing for a 100 member Black Bloc group - <$1,000,000
Return on $1.2 billion security budget - > 1200 to 1.
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@ Michael, how about march organizers simply ban masked individuals from taking part in the march?
even a right wingnut OC columnist didn't approve:
How not to enforce order
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/enforce+order/3234177/story.html
@ Michael, how about march organizers simply ban masked individuals from taking part in the march?
While I strongly condemn the black-bloc tactics, I don't personally have a problem with masks. The police photograph and attempt to identify people at protests, and that practice certainly isn't limited to the violent protestors. If individuals wish to conceal their identity out of fear of reprisals and harassment, that's up to them; personally I think you're much safer the more public you make yourself, but it's a matter of individual choice. I have always been a peaceful protestor, and at one time, I always attended protests in disguise (although usually not a bandana or balaclava; personally I preferred Halloween masks).
It's not necessary to apply some flawed and rigid metric for determining who is black bloc and who isn't; it's entirely self-evident.
@ Daedalus, it's safer for the peaceful protesters not to have these masked individuals amongst them who end up stirring trouble and crashing the party.
@ Daedalus, it's safer for the peaceful protesters not to have these masked individuals amongst them who end up stirring trouble and crashing the party.
I don't think it's right to force protestors to allow themselves to be photographed and identified by police (or anyone else who cares to identify and harass individuals), and I don't believe all masked individuals are causing problems.
It wouldn't work, in any case. The black bloc bunch would just leave the masks off until they did their quick-change routine. I believe many do that already.
A hat tip to Dawg's Blawg (the best in Canada) for this photo
which had a link to this Youtube video which also has this image at about 0:46 into the clip
Another Youtube video shows the Tophat protestor begin brutally assaulted by the police as they make an arrest for... ??? Watch the video and wait for the same scary lady cop to appear.
But perhaps what was most revealing to me and what prompted the OP was this Youtube video, entitled Police abandon cars at G20 protest amid $1 billion security clampdown. The video is from Russia Today (rt.com - isn't it ironic), where intrepid reporter Lauren Lister basically tells it like it is. Riot police at first surronded the cars and then abandoned them. At this point, there is just a bit of spray paint on the one car. There are lots of people around but no cops. WTF ARE THE COPS??
And then there was that 10 minutes of raw footage from CTV that showed a cop(??) instructing a citizen who was attempting to stop a vandal from throwing another rock through a window to "let 'em go!".
There is no doubt in my mind, and obviously many others, that the abandoned cars were staged - intended to be vandalized, to give the cops the raison d'etre to be there and to act.
At some point they were set on fire - what a marvelous photo-op! See? This is why we needed to spend $1 Billion. This is why we needed security cops dressed like this. This is why we needed a special law to suspend all rights and liberties; to impose martial law.
Trouble is that when it was communicated to the assembled dark forces that two cops cars were on fire, that's when things snapped and started to go horribly wrong. Otherwise decent cops who were dressed up like it was halloween began to to lose it. Maybe they were rent-a-cops from the US or rednecks from Arizona, but whoever they were, they acted like they knew they had immunity.
I liked to see some good old fashioned investigative reporting now. Interviews with the cops that abandoned the vehicles (I know - never going to happen). Or how about if some anonoymous cops come forward and give their version of how this situation got so out of hand.
The truth begs to be told here. This G20 event has got to be a candidate for Canada's Hall of Shame.
A fellow babbler shared a news story with me, which includes just such an account:
At least three police vehicles were set ablaze by breakaway protesters, one belonging to Staff Sgt. Graham Queen, a father of two.
Queen said he was driving west on Queen Street, trailing an organized protest march, when a wall of black suddenly descended on his cruiser.
It was the Black Bloc, a group of darkly dressed anarchists that splintered from the main march at Queen Street West and Spadina Avenue and were rushing toward the financial district. Queen said his attackers started wordlessly banging on his car windows and jumping on the roof before quickly moving on.
Because of the increasing violence and evolving chaos, he was forced to abandon his cruiser in front of a music store.
Queen said he later learned while he was watching the news that his car had been burned.
.... Queen recalled his final moments with his cruiser as unsettling.
“I’ve been policing 22 years,” he said. “And that’s the first time I’ve seen anything (like this).”
http://kitchenerwaterloorecord.ca/News/CanadaWorld/article/737178
This is the fellow that joined in with the mercenary-looking 'Black Block'heads (after they had started things) and got on the police radio. And the poor sap is the one who's going down for it.
I predicted earlier that we would soon be offered a scapegoat or two.
Anyone satisfied yet?
Here is one of the cops who infiltrated the "Black Bloc" and who was at the cop car burning "event."
Where's Wally.
Anyone find any footage of this guy actually doing any vandalism?
Nope. But the nice looking guy smashing the top of a police car with his nice, new spiffy boots was certainly seen engaging in vandalism. His photo is all over facebook, thanks to writer. But now, according to CTV the cops have released photos of the police car vandals they are actively seeking. Guess whose photo isn't included despite all the YouTube footage? You got it! Mr. Clean. Why look for him when he's on the payroll, eh?
I'm not sure proving it one way or another is terribly important. It works better as rumour, anyway, because even if deffinative proof were found, nothing would be done to them, or those that ordered them. And, people who are currently predisposed to not believing police would do such a thing would probably end up backing the police for using them anyway. I could be wrong on that, but that's my sorry gut feeling.
However, I think there's quite enough stuff that we know for sure concerning police wrong doing that it supplies us with all we need, anyway. Focussing on this, I think takes away attention from some self evident facts.
Like, Bill Blair abandoned the city to whoever it was who smashed windows and burned police cars.
Bill Blair was either fully behind the abuses detainees suffered, OR he wasn't in control of the officers under his command.
Damning enough, unless we lose focus.
I agree. The specific issue of police agents participating in these events is really not that important, and probably not provable. Nonetheless it is instructive for ourselves and intersting. The rumour needs to be kept alive, provable or not.
And yes, the case that Blair showed absolutely no ability to quell the vandalism that he used as he pretext to supress lawful dissent should be damning enough. This is also completely provable and in the public record.
1) Complete incompetence and possible complicity in allowing the vandalization to continue.
2) A direct police attack against many people lawfully expressing their right to free speech.
Simple. The BB, whoever they really are, is pretty irrelevant to this and something of a distraction. If we spend to much time chasing the wild goose of police provocateurs we may lose focus on the provable prima facie facts.
FM, thanks for the heads-up about that! There is the possibility that he's already been found and charged, I guess. But.
Meanwhile, an interesting series has been created by another concerned citizen: http://picasaweb.google.com/clayton.grassick/G20#
Please view in sequence. It focuses on a second man who might be part of the publicized lineup, and includes informative links and background.
Edited to add: One of the links is to a video segment of a long sequence @ one location, which has been compiled into a kind of series.
http://torontog20exposed.blogspot.com/2010/07/suspected-agent-provocatue...
And an excellent timeline, with a small part for Our Man in Black: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMzTi75XVeU
The specific issue of police agents participating in these events is really not that important, and probably not provable. Nonetheless it is instructive for ourselves and intersting. The rumour needs to be kept alive, provable or not.
The possibility that they are certainly needs to be kept in the back of our minds.
What do you make of some rabble writers defending and "promoting" the Black Bloc and that we should shelter them? Provocateurs?
Witting or unwitting agents of the state.
The specific issue of police agents participating in these events is really not that important, and probably not provable. Nonetheless it is instructive for ourselves and intersting. The rumour needs to be kept alive, provable or not.
The possibility that they are certainly needs to be kept in the back of our minds.
What do you make of some rabble writers defending and "promoting" the Black Bloc and that we should shelter them? Provocateurs?
Nothing in particular. They have a right to say what they believe and make their case. I don't particularly have any problems with civil disobedience, up to and including vandalism. It is a moral choice. The history of civil disobedience is a long and honoured one, and includes the suffragettes. Indeed my grand mother was among those women who smashed windows in downtown London in order win women the right to vote.
These issues of tactics are situational, as much as anything else. However, I am not entirely clear how these tactics can be fitted properly into the lawful protests, which the majority seems to want to pursue. So I am not sure that "diversity of tactics" really works. I also don't think it is the right of individuals who feel they need to engage in "direct action" to do so at the expsense of the majority, such as the main body of G20 protestors. That is an issue of organization that should be looked into.
We see now how effectively "diversity of tactics" has been used to manipulate public opinion, and result in a direct attack against those who chose other means of expressing dissent. People with sensitive jobs, disabled people, people with children and so on and so forth. From my understanding of events, the police waited until some "Black Bloc'rs" had returned to Queens Park, as a pretext for clamping down on the Queens Park "free speech" zone, because as Chief Blair put it the demonstrators there were "complicit" in harbouring the BB.
It may be very difficult to get ordinary folks to come out "en masse" in the near future in Toronto.
On the other hand, I am totally a proponent of the right of self-defense, and in no way want people to construe my position as being "pacifist", per se. Indeed, I want to state in the strongest possible terms that people have every right to defend themselves against police violence.
At the end of the day we have to make it clear that the attack upon the civil liberties of the many lawful protesters at these events should in no way be infringed simply because some other people, elsewhere deemed it necessary to engage in direct action.
Yes. One could say that the conduct of the police is essentially collective punishment of the many for the actions of a few.
And that is a war crime.
A hat tip to Frustrated Mess who proivded this this link which, IMO, is the best report so far on the subject
Who gave the G20 commander his commands?
Where are the police now?
Source: the REAL news - alternative media we need to support