babble-intro-img
babble is rabble.ca's discussion board but it's much more than that: it's an online community for folks who just won't shut up. It's a place to tell each other — and the world — what's up with our work and campaigns.

OUR GENDERS ARE NOT DISORDERED!!

Cross Product
Offline
Joined: Feb 25 2010

Hello all.

I have lurked on and off for years at this site, but finally registered an account today because I have something to say.  Please listen to me.

I am trans.  I also have something called Klinefelter Syndrome: that is, I have forty-seven chromosomes instead of forty-six.  I have three sex chromosomes: XXY.  This is actually a not uncommon event; it has the same stastical likelyhood as Down Syndrome because the mechanism is the same, just acting on a different chromosome.

People with KS are raised as boys, and the majority are happy that way.  A significant fraction of us, however, are not.  I am one of them.

I am fortunate enough to have a very good memory, and I remember my childhood vividly.  By the time I was six I was aware that something had gone wrong, that my body was screwed up and deformed.  I also learned that it was something that must never be talked about, ever ever ever.  It was worse than admitting to being a murderer in terms of social sanction for a small child.  Once others know, you can't take it back.  It instantly becomes a weapon that is employed enthusiastically by many, including adults and "authority figures."

I hid it away with suffocating zeal, but still I was called "faggot" more times than I can count.  I can think of a dozen individual, humiliating and physically dangerous events that involved the use of that word just off the top of my head.  To this day, if I hear someone yell that in the distance it freezes my heart and makes my blood run cold.

It gradually dawned on me that I would never enjoy my life; it would be a slow, long wait until death.  I got used to simply waiting out my life.  I thought of suicide every single day, but the truth is that the survival instinct and fear of death are incredibly strong and hard to overcome.  I tried to cope with what I guess you would call "death meditation," using meditation to take away my fear of death, so I could do it.

Puberty was a nightmare beyond description.  I had dreams about turning into a Mr Hyde-esque monster, and then I woke up every morning with stubble on my face and hair on my hands.  For my penis I felt the exact sort of visceral horror and loathing normally reserved for tapeworms and other internal parasites.  I felt ashamed, worthless, defective goods.  Truly I was worthy of death, but instead was punished with life.

I wore clothes down to rags, even though I wasn't poor.  What was the point of buying clothes?  I would hate how I looked no matter what I wore.  Might as well spend the money on more drugs.

Imagine you had a penis sticking out of your forehead.  No doubt you could have some fun with it, but you'd still want it off, right?  What if people told you you were crazy and disordered to want it off, that half the world has dicks on their foreheads and they like it, and we have to save you from yourself and keep you from making decisions that make us uncomfortable.

What other condition do you know where you have to prove yourself for two years (and sometimes sexual favours) before you are allowed medical care?  What other condition is there in which they send you a questionairre with questions like "have you ever been arrested" on it?  Not charged, not convicted, arrested.  Followed by a demand to know the circumstances of that arrest.  Accompanying the interrogation form was a letter to the effect that failure to answer all questions correctly will result in rejection of care.  Sadly, I threw them away, otherwise I would scan them and post them here.  Just to give you some idea about how we're treated.  Not patients, not human beings, just lab rats for the psychologists to wring some papers from, maybe get some more grant money, maybe make them famous and respected among their peers.  They were so ashamed of even being associated with me that they sent them in a plain brown envelope with no identification.  I'm surprised they don't handle us with latex gloves.

In the end, after my second suicide attempt nearly succeeded, when I woke up in the ER with tubes emerging from every orifice, that a loved one begged me to tell them what was wrong.  So, finally after 32 years which have felt like 32 centuries, I told them.  And I did it.  I did it without the Official Permission, without grovelling and scraping at the feet of people who despise me.  I made use of every resource available to me, and ruthlessly bulldozed through it all and came out of the other side happier than I have ever been able to remember.  And my memory is a good one.

Now, imagine how I feel when I read the revolting way the author of the thread with the lower-case version of this one's title was treated.  The Right hates us.  They spare no invective, no lie, no attribution of motive: literally anything goes.  Nothing is beyond the pale for them.  They will not rest until they have us tied to beds, full of Risperdal and half our brains removed until we are no longer a threat to their worldview.  And they get away with it because of something that I learned only recently, something shattering that pulled the carpet from under my understanding of human nature.

The Left hates us too.

 

I am going off to cry now.  Mods, please feel free to delete this thread and ban me.  I will understand.  And the rest of you guys feel free to pile on with the "oh boo hoo shut up you baby" comments.  I will also understand those too.  I have heard them many many times before.


Comments

ennir
Offline
Joined: Feb 8 2009

Not from me and not from many others here, thank you for taking the time to share your story.


Maysie
Offline
Joined: Apr 21 2005

Cross Product, what tremendous courage you have for what you've survived in your life, and also for sharing your story here. Thank you so much for what you've shared here and I hope you continue to contribute to babble.

As a moderator, I greatly welcome your voice, your experience and your views.

 


Stargazer
Offline
Joined: Jun 9 2004

I agree with ennir. Cross Product I hope you stay. You'll find that the majority of us are allies. A big hug for you for laying it all out and exposing your vulnerabilities. That takes a lot of guts.

 

BTW Cross Product, have you seen the movie XXY yet?I bought it but haven't watched it yet.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0995829/

One of the comments from IMDB:

 

A Life Determining Conflict: Who Am I?, 27 October 2008
10/10
Author: gradyharp from United States

The chromosomal abnormality of XXY has been labeled as Klinefelter's Syndrome, hermaphroditism, and Intersex. The 'conception' defect results in a child with both male and female organs and when detected at birth usually results in a decision between physicians and parents to surgically alter the child to be one or the other phenotypic assignments - male or female. In this remarkably sensitive film based on a short story 'Cinismo' by Sergio Bizzio and adapted for the screen by writer/director Lucía Puenzo, XXY becomes a story of understanding and acceptance of a diagnosis by both child and parents and the conflicts such gender variation can present.

Alex (Inés Efron) is the XXY patient of the story, having been raised on the isolated coastline of Uruguay as a girl with the aid of supplemental hormones until age 15, the age when her loving Argentinean parents Kraken (Ricardo Darín) and Suli (Valeria Bertuccelli) have decided she should have her 'offending member' removed, allowing her to become a completely phenotypic female. Alex is deeply conflicted about her situation, refuses to take her medications and enjoys being 'one of the boys' in secret. When Alex's parents invite their surgeon friend Ramiro (Germán Palacios) and his wife Erika (Carolina Pelleritti) to their home to advise them on the surgical alternatives, they are accompanied by their artistic son Alvaro (Martín Piroyansky). There is an attraction between Alex and Alvaro and this ultimately results in a crisis that results in the coming of age and self-acceptance of both youngsters. Lucía Puenzo and her fine cast sensitively explore the interaction between parents and children and the coming to grips with choice of identity. This is yet another challenging and rewarding film from Argentina, one that stands alone as a fine movie, but one that also would be wise to add to the film libraries of high school and college students and of patient resource facilities who deal with problems of gender identity. Highly recommended. Grady Harp

 


Michelle
Offline
Joined: May 10 2001
I can't imagine anyone not welcoming your voice here, Cross Product. Thanks so much for sharing your story.

j.m.
Offline
Joined: Dec 20 2009

Looking back on that thread started by RTTG, I do feel bad for how I approached that conversation. It was a learning experience and I do feel bad that it was hurtful one at other people's expense.

I am sorry for being a cause of some of those hurtful comments.


RosaL
Offline
Joined: Mar 4 2007

I have some problems with what some other people are saying but I have given up trying to discuss such issues here. But I have no problem and every sympathy with your story. I'm glad you're here. 


jas
Online
Joined: Jun 6 2005

From the original thread referred to started by RTTG, I counted four of us who posted any oppositional comments. One of those posters also apologized later for her particularly inflammatory comments as she had been experiencing some mental or other instability. The thread was also closed by a mod so that the conversation would not get any further derailed or disrespectful. I don't think it's fair to come in here and characterize this board as being unsupportive of trans issues when clearly the majority who care to comment here are.

That said, thanks for sharing your story, Cross Product. It helps those of us who are skeptical of some trans issues to understand better.

 


Cross Product
Offline
Joined: Feb 25 2010

Hi there!  Thank you all so much for your support.  It's always very disheartening to see trans threads go the same way over and over, with nobody learning anything.  Only one defensive reply!

j.m, thanks for your unqualified apology.  I appreciate it.  I would like very much to educate people, and I know some have changed their minds. It's something that's close to my heart, obviously, so it's hard for me not to get emotional about it.  The part of me from childhood screams in my ear to shut up and hide.  I'm going to try to use analogies and metaphors that others can understand.

To jas, those four of you were amazingly good at derailing, and went way beyond "disrespectful."  It's also bitterly ironic and revealing that someone calls us crazy who has, as you put it, some mental instability.  I think my characterization is fair, because in spite of some wonderful supporters I have been reading predictable threads like these for years.  The fact that RosaL doesn't feel like she can even discuss the subject should tell you all you need to know.  The fact that the last thread degenerated into open taunting should tell you all you need to know.  Your skepticism is unjustified and I will explain how, if you're willing to listen.  I suspect that you're not, but it would be nice if you would prove me wrong.

Stargazer, I'm a great fan of yours!  I have great trouble watching any films or television involving trans issues.  Just looking at promotional stills for XXY is overwhelming.  Most XXY people are raised as boys because we usually pass the "ruler test" (which is literally the only test they use to determine what gender to force you into).  I wish they had raised me as a girl.  It would have solved everything in an instant.  So simple, and yet somehow so unacceptable.

I recommend reading Stone Butch Blues, and watching Boys Don't Cry and Southern Comfort.  They're almost impossible for me to sit through.

One problem is that when even well-meaning people speak for us, they can never know what we go through.  So many times we get talked over, and there are so terribly few of us that we're always massively outnumbered.  Many of us are dismayed at this and decide it's better to leave and hide away in secret.  I'm mostly a lurker and don't post a lot, usually when I feel something's not being said that needs to be.

I usually don't emphasize being XXY, because it's only tangentially related to the central issue.  I was lucky to escape the central crime of involuntary surgery, which needs to be banned NOW and the victims compensated generously.  It is monstrous and barbaric, no better than prefrontal lobotomy.  I can't speak for them or their trauma.

I can say what is necessary, though: on-demand access to transition-related medical care, including for children.  We are not confused.  We are not crazy.  We know exactly what is wrong and how to mitigate it, and all of us that I have ever met have always known.  This is crucial to understand.  We know long before we have any sort of political or social awareness.  We know as soon as we are aware that there exist two different kinds of people, that we are the wrong kind.  Again, I have never encountered a transperson for whom this was not the case.

The wrong puberty must be avoided at all cost!  This is central to quality of life.  Denial of this costs lives.  A lot of them.  I am fortunate in being XXY that mine was very weak and I look like any other tall woman.  But even what I did have was disastrous.  It fucked up my voice.  I had to have my facial hair follicles burned and blasted out by laser.  It was the most painful thing I have ever voluntarily put myself through.

There needs to be some simple, easy and private mechanism for changing documents.  Provincial governments are too ashamed to include any help for us on their websites, so you have to go digging and badgering.  It would also be nice if, when you are changing your driver's license, they didn't loudly say "DO YOU STILL HAVE A PENIS" to a room full of random people, and then "accidentally" losing the documentation so you have to go in and do it again, and hope you get someone else.  That was an actual experience, btw.

Another experience that happened to a trans friend when she went to her doctor for help.  He said, "no I won't help you.  You should move to a big city before someone beats the shit out of you."  Actual verbatim quote.

I already have a medical phobia, and the surgery was incredibly traumatic.  The epidural (huge needle in spine) got fucked up, which was a horrifying experience.  My mental and physical state deteriorated with constant panic attacks and flashbacks and paranoia until they subsided when I flew halfway around the world back home and could sleep in my own bed again.  Since there are only a dozen or so well-known and reputable surgeons who deign to help us (and they are pariahs in the medical community), we often have to travel around the world.  Still, I developed a deep fondness for Thailand when I was there.  I want to visit again under better circumstances.

I paid for my surgery and travel entirely out of pocket.  I am lucky because I come from a blue-blood academic dynasty of a family and have education and money, and some extremely wealthy relatives as a safety net (I have never asked for money from them, but they are there.  It's the kind of favour you can ask for only once in your life).  Most have a much worse time.  Someone I knew (who has since killed herself) once mentioned that her grandmother pulled her aside and told her she had to commit suicide to save the honour of her family.  I wish I were kidding.  Mission accomplished for granny.  Now they can erase her out of existence and try to forget that their family was ever stained in such a way.

Anyway, I'm happy to answer any questions, including offensive ones (but expect snippy answers).  I tend to use direct and strong language but it isn't meant nastily.  I have just found that it's often needed in order to get the point across effectively.

Again, thanks to all the supporters.  Without you we would have no chance.


jas
Online
Joined: Jun 6 2005

Cross Product wrote:

Anyway, I'm happy to answer any questions, including offensive ones (but expect snippy answers).  I tend to use direct and strong language but it isn't meant nastily.  I have just found that it's often needed in order to get the point across effectively.

As long as you don't then complain about direct and strong language in return.

Cross Product wrote:

The fact that the last thread degenerated into open taunting should tell you all you need to know.

The fact that you reiterate this tells me that it will probably be difficult having a balanced dialogue with you.


Cross Product
Offline
Joined: Feb 25 2010

jas wrote:

 

As long as you don't then complain about direct and strong language in return.

The fact that you reiterate this tells me that it will probably be difficult having a balanced dialogue with you.

 

Please phrase your response in the form of a question.  You didn't ask any.  Instead, you ignored everything I said and homed in on a couple of unimportant sentences.

Nonetheless: yes I can take strong language.  Seriously.  I give as good as I get.

I agree with your second sentence.  I don't think there's any reaching you, so if you wouldn't mind stepping out of the conversation so I can talk to the people who want to learn without wasting time and energy on you, that would just be precious.

tx bb


500_Apples
Offline
Joined: Jun 3 2006
One thing's for sure, she's no dot product. I for one appreciate you sharing your 3-dimensional views. [For everyone else, I'm making a math joke].

Cross Product
Offline
Joined: Feb 25 2010

:)  Yes, I'm a math nerd.

I'm normal to the plane, baby!


500_Apples
Offline
Joined: Jun 3 2006
That's a good one, thanks !

Cross Product
Offline
Joined: Feb 25 2010

No prob.  There's a lot more where that came from :D

For non-nerds, a cross product produces a vector perpendicular to the span of the matrix in the operator.  Actually, I guess that doesn't help much…


Maysie
Offline
Joined: Apr 21 2005

Hi Cross Product. Just a small technicality re your comment at post #10. babblers can't ask for certain babblers to refrain from posting in any particular thread. So, you can't ask or tell or suggest to jas or anyone to not post in this thread.

If a babbler has posted something counter to babble policy, mods can and will step in and may instruct said babbler(s) to no longer post in a particular thread, or even an entire forum such as the feminism forum, for example. This is not the case with jas.

I suggest that we try to continue with this thread in a positive way, and not focus on the failings of the past thread of the same name. And thanks to j.m. for your words at post #5.

Very funny, educational and trans-positive video here. I've posted it before but it's so wonderful and amazing I felt it might help to bring us a bit back on track.


Polly B
Offline
Joined: Dec 15 2004

Cross Product wrote:

No prob.  There's a lot more where that came from :D

For non-nerds, a cross product produces a vector perpendicular to the span of the matrix in the operator.  Actually, I guess that doesn't help much…

 

Nope.  Not even a little bit :)


Cross Product
Offline
Joined: Feb 25 2010

Maysie: that's okay.  It was more rhetorical than anything else, I don't actually expect jas to follow through.

I don't want to be positive.  I want to let people know when they're wrong.  The whole reason I registered an account and posted in the first place was to express my unhappiness about the atrocious thread that was closed.  As well as all the ones that have gone to the graveyard before them.

It's not about happiness and joy, it's about pain and misery.  I'd love to talk about sunrises and kittens and fresh linen sheets, but that's not what this topic is about.  We are one of the remaining minorities for whom it is still considered socially acceptable to hector and jeer at in public.  It is also acceptable on a supposedly "progressive" forum to state outright the following (more or less in order):

- We are not special.  [Our unique medical and social issues are irrelevant]

- We identify as trans.  [We don't identify as trans, we are trans]

- Intentionally misunderstanding what cisgendered means [How can this be so hard?  Cis is anyone who's not trans.]

- Trans activists actively push people into transitioning  [This is a lie, repeated by more than one person]

- We are only "apparently" successful [Transsexuals are sad and pathetic]

- Trans youth are "confused" [That word comes up a lot, the Family Research Institute uses it all the time]

- We should not be accomodated "at the moment" [Due to rampant confusion]

- Gender identity is (partially) culturally based [IT IS NOT, any more than sexuality is]

- You can label us, but we're not allowed to label you

- Feminists have already dealt with this, and that's the final word ["the Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it," pretty much]

- Surgery is PERMANENT!  And hormones are DANGEROUS!  [We know, thanks.  You don't need to protect us from our crazy little selves]

- We should be "tempered" at an early age [Through beatings, perhaps?  That's what my father did.  It failed but gave me some nice PTSD]

- We don't know who we are / false consciousness [YES WE DO, and we do as small children]

- "I can't imagine what you're going through, so I shall use Occam's Razor and assume you're lying"

- People in lab coats know more about us than we know about ourselves

- Our experiences are mere "opinion," whereas your opinions are facts

- Our experiences carry no weight against your introspection and that course you took ten years ago

- You have never seen things turn out well [Bet you think you can always spot one of us]

- We are "carved up" like a dinner roast [I assume you won't be getting carved up if you need bypass surgery]

- We are disordered  [We are broken, defective, crazy, unstable, dangerous]

- Trans is just the same as cutting  [I know because of my learnings]

- Medical care for us is not a "God-given right" [Something Tony Perkins would agree with, no doubt]

- Potato soup is more important than our lives  [Thanks for letting us know you care]

- Transitioning is just like buying a coffee at Starbucks, only it costs ten thousand times as much [CASH UP FRONT, no loan for you]

- We are a waste of taxpayers' valuable coin  [WTF?  Is this Free Republic?]

- Humane slaughter is to be supported [of us, I guess.  Time to fire the ovens!]

- SRS is self-mutilation, just like cutting [It is NOT.  "Mutilation" means that it is involuntary.  Any surgery entered into voluntarily that is correctly performed is NOT mutilation by definition]

- Acne is an appropriate analogy [if only our help came in tubes you could buy at the drugstore]

And that's just in that one thread!  And I've heard those non-arguments over and over and over and over again, and I'm so tired.  It's just so offensive, so insulting, so patronising, so derisive, so spiteful, so infantilising, and so ceaseless, that words fail me.  If you can't see how trans people might have been upset by that, I don't know what I can say.  The fact that G. Muffin can say these things and not be banned or even warned (and the thread locked right after so that nobody can refute anything), whereas I am warned on my second or third post for a very minor breach of etiquette, says a lot to me.

Nobody has actually asked me a real question, yet, other than punny math.  People are always talking about us, or at us, but almost never to us, and even more rarely stopping to listen.  If nobody wants to hear, if I'm just talking to a wall, I'll leave.  All you have to do is ask, and I'm out of here.

I'll understand.


Stargazer
Offline
Joined: Jun 9 2004

Cross Product and Red Tory Tea Girl have both posted up their personal experiences. Laid themselves bare for us at Babble. Probably hoping that someone, somewhere actually cares what trans people go through and how they feel and educate our ignorant asses on the issues. See Cross Product's post above.

If this were the feminist forum, or the anti-racism or FN forum, no one would be debating the very basics of these issues. Yet here come two new people, who share their story only to be met with this:

As long as you don't then complain about direct and strong language in return.

This little nugget was given a pass here. A complete pass. Can you imagine if this were the feminist forum, or the AR forum and a white had said o a POC or FN the exact same thing? There would be some strong words.

Jas, I am not trying to single you out but I have a general question for people, why is it that both RTTG and now Cross Product have to be subjected to US defining the terms of discussion? Why are both RTTG and Cross Product immediately put on the defensive? Why is it ANY OF OUR BUSINESS to speculate and hurl our own, completely uneducated and biased opinions, at either of these posters?

Why would anyone, as opposed to listening, instead ask people to suck up any crap that gets flung their way because we just don't get it?

I call for zero tolerance for this type of behaviour. Keep your moral opinions to yourself. This is not your life to dissect and to question the motives of someone, and then call them "confused" etc.

Seriously people, can we get with the times here? This is embarrassing. The last thread was hostile, repulsive and no where near the level of progressive thought given to other issues.

Reminds me of almost all the AR topics started by POC or FN - we drown out their voices with bullshit. I would like to see that doesn't happen in this case as well.

Brilliant post BTW Cross Product. What I know of Trans issues I only know from reading books and articles written by trans people (and that isn't a whole lot). So I very much welcome your voice here. I hope that you stick around. Don't worry so much, you should see some of the arguments that happen in the AR and Feminist forum.

 

Hopefully the type of crap that was thrown at RTTG in her thread will not be thrown here too - anymore.

 


ennir
Offline
Joined: Feb 8 2009

I appreciate your voice and would like it if you stayed around but I will understand if you decide not to, some of the comments that have been made are extemely offensive.

 


Stargazer
Offline
Joined: Jun 9 2004

ennir, we cross posted. What you said +10

 

BTW, I had no idea Cross Product was some type of math thing. No wonder I didn't get it!


ennir
Offline
Joined: Feb 8 2009

Stargazer, thank you for your post, I competely agree.

I would welcome a society that does not decide on the basis of the penis whether or not to define a child as male or female, in my view no infant should ever be subjected to that.  I would rather that these children be given the opportunity to identify as they chose to.

Cross Product, I loved math as a child, dreamt of becoming a mathematician and am quite disappointed that I am not getting the math jokes.  lol 

As for questions, what do you think should be done or not done when a child is born with Klinefelter syndrome?


Sineed
Offline
Joined: Dec 4 2005

Quote:
Intentionally misunderstanding what cisgendered means (How can this be so hard?  Cis is anyone who's not trans.)

Quote:
The word has its origin in the Latin-derived prefix cis, meaning "on the same side" as in the cis-trans distinction in chemistry.

When I was studying chemistry, we used the terms, "cis," and "trans," to describe the configuration of various organic molecules.

Quote:
The word cisgender has been used on the internet since at least 1994, when it appeared in the alt.transgendered usenet group in a post by Dana Leland Defosse.[3] Defosse does not define the term and seems to assume that readers are already familiar with it. It may also have been independently coined a year later.[citation needed] According to Donna Lynn Matthews, the charter maintainer of the alt.support.crossdressing usenet group, the word was coined in 1995 by Carl Buijs, a transsexual man from the Netherlands.[4] In April 1996, Buijs said in a usenet posting, "As for the origin, I just made it up. I just kept running into the problem of what to call non-trans people in various discussions, and one day it just hit me: non-trans equals cis. Therefore, cisgendered."

So if it's good enough for labelling molecules, it's good enough for labelling people.

Quote:
You can label us, but we're not allowed to label you

Uh, no; you insist on labelling.  Nobody should be called what they do not want to be called.  If I object to "cis-gendered" because I think it's a silly-ass neologism as well as an objectifying label, I don't think I should be called that.



Stargazer
Offline
Joined: Jun 9 2004

Great start Sineed! Really. *Applause*

 

Yes, that was sarcasm.


ennir
Offline
Joined: Feb 8 2009

Sineed wrote:

Quote:
Intentionally misunderstanding what cisgendered means (How can this be so hard?  Cis is anyone who's not trans.)

Quote:
The word has its origin in the Latin-derived prefix cis, meaning "on the same side" as in the cis-trans distinction in chemistry.

When I was studying chemistry, we used the terms, "cis," and "trans," to describe the configuration of various organic molecules.

Quote:
The word cisgender has been used on the internet since at least 1994, when it appeared in the alt.transgendered usenet group in a post by Dana Leland Defosse.[3] Defosse does not define the term and seems to assume that readers are already familiar with it. It may also have been independently coined a year later.[citation needed] According to Donna Lynn Matthews, the charter maintainer of the alt.support.crossdressing usenet group, the word was coined in 1995 by Carl Buijs, a transsexual man from the Netherlands.[4] In April 1996, Buijs said in a usenet posting, "As for the origin, I just made it up. I just kept running into the problem of what to call non-trans people in various discussions, and one day it just hit me: non-trans equals cis. Therefore, cisgendered."

So if it's good enough for labelling molecules, it's good enough for labelling people.

Quote:
You can label us, but we're not allowed to label you

Uh, no; you insist on labelling.  Nobody should be called what they do not want to be called.  If I object to "cis-gendered" because I think it's a silly-ass neologism as well as an objectifying label, I don't think I should be called that.


 

Wow, that is what you have to say?    LOL  Truly you are correct, it is ALL about you.


Maysie
Offline
Joined: Apr 21 2005

Okay if we can dial down the personal angles here and stick with the issues, that would be great. So back off the sarcasm towards Sineed please.

Sineed, objecting to being labelled from the side of the majority and the dominant position isn't at all the same as having the majority name and label the less powerful.

I'm moderating this thread a bit more closely in the hopes that this will not go the way of the many previous threads on trans issues.


Stargazer
Offline
Joined: Jun 9 2004

Thank you Maysie! You truly do rock.


Cross Product
Offline
Joined: Feb 25 2010

Sineed: we need some terminology to determine not only who is us, but who isn't us.  Of course I understand that argument from authority via a cut-n-paste Wikipedia entry is worth far more than anything I could ever possibly contribute, but this term has common currency among transpeople, and it's not going to change.  Please get over it.  What should we call you?  !trans?  ~trans?  Trans-prime?  That-Which-Is-Not-Us?  How about the Normals?  The Mundanes?  The Muggles?  Cissies?  If I'm feeling grim, how about the Hutus?  The Elil?  See, really cisgendered isn't looking so bad after all.  It is a neutral, technical term, and it has NOTHING to do with stuff you learned in undergrad chemistry.

If we're not allowed to have a term that describes you, then we cannot talk about ourselves either.  Which I suspect is the point.

Stargazer and ennir, thank you so much for your support!  If it weren't for you, I might have given up by now.  You guys rock.

The problem with math is that they don't bust out the good shit until second year university, so the memories people carry away are endless multiplication tables and fractions, mindless grind work that isn't really "math" in any real sense, but mere arithmetic.  They teach kids to be human calculators, when math is more a way of thinking than anything else.  No wonder people are phobic about it.

As to KS, the best thing to do when they're born is nothing at all.  We can have some developmental issues which are probably good to look out for.  I am extremely clumsy (my first two school report cards say "has problems with motor control"), and writing is difficult and painful for me, which is why I switched to the keyboard as soon as I could.  I used to type school papers on an old mechanical typewriter because it was a lot easier.  I'm allergic to a huge range of things; many KS people have autoimmune problems.  KS people are sometimes prone to out of control rages, something I used to have but learned to control and neutralize as a teenager.  This can make XXY forums pretty fractious places, which is why I tend to avoid them.

The most important thing is that if your child says "I think I should have been a girl/boy," regardless of any visible medical issue, please take them seriously and please listen to them.  You will potentially be saving them from a lifetime of grief, misery, shame and death.

I'm always amazed at the level of personal investment so many people seem to have in denying and removing our agency.  Do you realize how few of us there are?  But the fact is that we, by our mere existence and out of all proportion to our numbers, threaten a lot of peoples' basic assumptions about the world.  Some people can take these new concepts and integrate them, and so learn and grow.

For others, our existence is intolerable, and our scary shadow must be neutralized somehow.  People construct cozy narratives about us - that we're crazy, deranged, pathetic, deceivers, invaders - in order to avoid facing whatever it is about us that is threatening their worldview.  Once that schema is in place, there's almost no shifting it, because to do so would require facing the shadow again.  To those people, I ask that you look at that shadow and think about what you see.

It's really the same sort of process that occurs with gay-hating Christian organisations, only on a smaller scale.  That is why the arguments directed against us are so familiar and recognizable (at least to us).  How can I get through, without people getting huffy and defensive, without the shutters slamming closed?

Thanks very much.  I am really writing from the heart here, and this is very exhausting and draining.  I want to educate, I want people to understand, I want happy things, but being Sisyphus grinds you down.

And now, I am off to get very, very, very high.


Maysie
Offline
Joined: Apr 21 2005

This is so incredibly powerful and applies to issues and social realities far beyond this conversation:

Cross Product wrote:
 I'm always amazed at the level of personal investment so many people seem to have in denying and removing our agency.  Do you realize how few of us there are?  But the fact is that we, by our mere existence and out of all proportion to our numbers, threaten a lot of peoples' basic assumptions about the world.  Some people can take these new concepts and integrate them, and so learn and grow.


jas
Online
Joined: Jun 6 2005

Cross Product wrote:

Please get over it.  What should we call you?  !trans?  ~trans?  Trans-prime?  That-Which-Is-Not-Us?  How about the Normals?  The Mundanes?  The Muggles?  Cissies?  If I'm feeling grim, how about the Hutus?  The Elil?

Um, how about non-trans? Is the extra syllable that much of an inconvenience?

My point in the last thread was that assuming that everyone who does not identify as trans is "cis" is incorrect. How can you possibly know who is cis or not, by your definition (being those who are comfortable with their assigned gender). You don't know that and it's arrogant and misleading to label a broad swath of people as such. "Non-trans" would cover all those people who may not identify as trans but who don't identify as cis. Is that all right with you?


jas
Online
Joined: Jun 6 2005

Stargazer wrote:

This little nugget was given a pass here. A complete pass. Can you imagine if this were the feminist forum, or the AR forum and a white had said o a POC or FN the exact same thing? There would be some strong words.

Jas, I am not trying to single you out but I have a general question for people, why is it that both RTTG and now Cross Product have to be subjected to US defining the terms of discussion? Why are both RTTG and Cross Product immediately put on the defensive?

They both came in here on the defensive. They both came in here presumably to initiate some discussion, although I'm still not quite sure on what.

Can you imagine if a feminist came into the feminism forum with some kind of diatribe, and then said something along the lines of "ask questions, but expect snippy answers...I tend to use strong language...I find it's needed to get my point across," basically asking for protected status, but retaining the right to be bitchy to those who respond. Is that a really great way to engage others?


Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Login or register to post comments