Andrea Horwath's fate on Friday the 13th

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josh

Actually if the Toronto candidates could make the decision, they'd probably show her the door.

theleftyinvestor

NorthReport wrote:

Yup, the ONDP should turf their most successful leader in decades. Wink

ONDP Recent Political History 

Date / Event / Leader / Seats / Seats - Change / Popular Vote / Popular Vote Change

2014 / GE / Horwath / 22 seats / Up 5 seats / 25% / Up 2%

2011 / GE / Horwath / 17 seats / Up 10 seats / 23% / Up 6% 

2007 / GE / Hampton / 7 seats / No Change / 17% / Up 2% 

2003 / GE / Hampton / 7 seats / ......... / 15%

 

 

Yabbut they were already up to 21 with by-election seats, so the one seat improvement is rather marginal. The election campaign was basically about giving up on Toronto and chasing other areas.

Were the trades worth losing Trinity-Spadina and Davenport? 

takeitslowly

Andrea deserves to stay on for as long as she wants. But ontario voters dont deserve her. I think she should just say fuck you to the voters and enjoy herself. She has better things to do than deal with this bullshit in Ontario.

Doug

theleftyinvestor wrote:

Is an automatic leadership review triggered by the stagnant result? I would totally rejoin the NDP in order to vote against her leadership.

There's one at each convention.

Unionist

takeitslowly wrote:

Andrea deserves to stay on for as long as she wants. But ontario voters dont deserve her. I think she should just say fuck you to the voters and enjoy herself. She has better things to do than deal with this bullshit in Ontario.

So that's why she brought down the government over its budget! That's the first logical explanation I've heard yet.

 

Wilf Day

Hudak crashed and burned, letting Wynne pick up seats with no real increase in the vote (38.5%, up from 37.7%).  Andrea won more votes (23.9%, up from 22.7%, a bigger increase than Wynne) and more seats.

If I were Mulcair, I'd ask her to run in the next federal election. She's had two shots at Ontario. The ONDP has four years to find a successor. Mulcair needs her more than the ONDP caucus does.

 

Wilf Day

Unionist wrote:

takeitslowly wrote:

Andrea deserves to stay on for as long as she wants. But ontario voters dont deserve her. I think she should just say fuck you to the voters and enjoy herself. She has better things to do than deal with this bullshit in Ontario.

So that's why she brought down the government over its budget! That's the first logical explanation I've heard yet.

I gave you one. Wynne would have called the election anyway, and Hudak would have crucified the NDP for propping up a corrupt government. If Wynne had waited until next year, she would either have had to call it on the new federal boundaries (except in the North -- the NDP's price of support for the boundaries legislation would have been freezing the north's seats), or justify failing to use the new boundaries, but the new boundaries would have given the PCs a big seat bonus. Wynne would not have gotten a majority tonight on the new 121 federal seats. So she had to find an excuse to call it this spring.

Horwath had to either bring down the government, or explain why she hadn't if it was so bad. Think about it.

ProfShawn

Rabble is a Labour or Progressive online Newspaper, it is not just an NDP Newsletter.  A lot of good people in the Labour Movement, the NGO Sector, Social Services etc, voted for the Liberals in this election.  Let's not be too dismissive of progressive brothers and sisters in other parties, whether it be Liberals or Greens. 

 

Kathleen Wynne gave a good speech tonight, she touched on her commitment to education, to kids and to diversity. Her election is also a first in Ontario. 

Unionist

Wilf. I respect your analysis on electoral matters. I'll never grasp a fraction of what you do in those areas.

But that's not my field of expertise. Let me grant you everything you just said. Now explain to me why Horwath eviscerated the party platform in mid-campaign, to the point of deleting the policy book from the website on May 22. No more pension plan. No more 2.5% corporate tax increase. Nothing about minimum wage. Nothing about card-check, anti-scab legislation, or other pro-labour measures that even Bob Rae's government had championed. And the shameful proposals on social assistance.

Why did she need to do that, if (as you suggest) it was all about timing and packaging?

You told me some weeks ago about her trade union background and credentials. Everyone I work with has trade union background and credentials. Some are great fighters. Some are racists, sexists, homophobes, supporters of CAQ or the PLQ, federalists, independentists... I don't hold much with nature or nurture when it comes to such matters. I go by which side of the trenches they're on, and with how much enthusiasm.

But I'll give you credit, as always, for suggesting more logical explanations for her behaviour than she was ever capable of doing. She never got past "I don't trust Kathleen Wynne any more" (duhhhhhhhhhhhhhh), and "they're corrupt".

Hopefully, not my grandchildren's NDP.

 

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Wilf Day wrote:

Hudak crashed and burned, letting Wynne pick up seats with no real increase in the vote (38.5%, up from 37.7%).  Andrea won more votes (23.9%, up from 22.7%, a bigger increase than Wynne) and more seats.

If I were Mulcair, I'd ask her to run in the next federal election. She's had two shots at Ontario. The ONDP has four years to find a successor. Mulcair needs her more than the ONDP caucus does.

 

Where would you have her run, Wilf? Here in Hamilton Centre we already have Dave Christopherson.

 

PrairieDemocrat15

Michael Moriarity wrote:

Wilf Day wrote:

Hudak crashed and burned, letting Wynne pick up seats with no real increase in the vote (38.5%, up from 37.7%).  Andrea won more votes (23.9%, up from 22.7%, a bigger increase than Wynne) and more seats.

If I were Mulcair, I'd ask her to run in the next federal election. She's had two shots at Ontario. The ONDP has four years to find a successor. Mulcair needs her more than the ONDP caucus does.

Where would you have her run, Wilf? Here in Hamilton Centre we already have Dave Christopherson.

How 'bout Niagara Falls? Is that close enough to the Hammer to not be parachute territory? Gates cleaned up there tonight, maybe she can ride his coattails past the Minister of Defence.

nittanylionstorm07

I want to say something about Andrea Horwath.

I am someone who has wholeheartedly supported Andrea.  I believe she has been a great leader for the ONDP, and I am very thankful for where she has brought the party...back into contention after being in the wilderness for so long.  She has brought many new faces and supporters to the ONDP that have been desperately needed, and she has somewhat recaptured the spirit of populism that should be the left-wing's home turf.  She has also been a great person, someone one can relate to easily, and someone who you feel you can get along with well and who cares about you.

With that said, I think she has brought the ONDP as far as she can personally bring it.  I felt that the magic that she had in the 2011 campaign was lost in the 2014 campaign.  Her debate was her shining moment...but it was only mediocre.  When I hear her speak, it feels like the air has been blown out of her balloon.  There are a lot of nice surface words, but there is no real substance and detail that speak to the people.  From the late, unprepared start to the campaign, to the party platform that was extremely lackluster in detail and differentiation from the Liberals, to her speaking engagements that were quite frankly hollow... I just think she has run out of gas.  I'm not trying to speak ill of her, as I appreciate what she has done.... and in this campaign she did perform *well enough* for that ever so slight increase...and not the disaster the PCs faced.  However, with the political situation that existed in Ontario... simply not enough was done to provide winning conditions for the NDP.  The opportunity was there for a long time, but Andrea and the ONDP decided to sit on the curb and watch it pass.

For that, I am hopeful Andrea resigns gracefully from the ONDP leadership.  I also hope the ONDP takes a full, thorough review of the party platform.  Unlike some, I think a shift towards (not to) the centre has been appropriate... but not too much of one.  Ultimately, the ONDP needs to regain many footholds on the left such as the promotion of crown corporations and be able to explain how they benefit the public the most vs. privatization.

There are many good candidates for the ONDP's next leader.  I look forward to the race.

PrairieDemocrat15

ProfShawn wrote:

Rabble is a Labour or Progressive online Newspaper, it is not just an NDP Newsletter.  A lot of good people in the Labour Movement, the NGO Sector, Social Services etc, voted for the Liberals in this election.  Let's not be too dismissive of progressive brothers and sisters in other parties, whether it be Liberals or Greens. 

 

Kathleen Wynne gave a good speech tonight, she touched on her commitment to education, to kids and to diversity. Her election is also a first in Ontario. 

Oh, please, what have the Liberals done in the last 11 years to earn the label "progressive?" They have de-listed healthcare services, privatized electricty, and cut corporate taxes. McGuinty's government was no more progressive than Harper's.

Wynne seems to be somewhat progressive at heart, I'll admit, but so was Chretien (he was an important Minister in the Trudeau government). She has near total power to do to Ontario what she wants. She could lead her party and the province leftwards, but given the fiscal problems (i.e. revenue problems) of the government and the history of the Liberal party, I remain skeptical.

The Greens are a bunch of libertarians and former Tories. BC Greens want to privatize electricty (even more than the BC Libs have already) Manitoba Greens want to privatize liqour retailing and distribution (even Alberta and BC haven't done that) in that province. The Ontario Greens want to cut taxes and close schools.

The reality is the PCs in Newfoundland and New Brunswick are more progressive or leftist than pretty much any Green or Liberal party in this country. And they don't come close to the ND, even Horwath;s "populist" version. 

adma

When it comes to potential spots for Andrea federally, Wayne Marston will be approaching 70 next election, so who knows what his future plans might be...

PrairieDemocrat15

I think it is quite achievement that Andrea managed to maintain (or increase - come on Prune) the NDP seats. I have never seen such a smear campaign against a leader or candiate as the one the Star ran against Andrea. It was disgusting and pathetic. The CBC was bad, too. And, of course, the NDP got no support from the Postmedia and SUN empires. Many unions abandoned her, as did some progressive and activist leaders. Its one thing if these forces refused to support her and her party because they feel she took the party too far right, but these "supporters" parked their vote with the Liberals. Had this not happened we could have seen a minority Parliament with and NDP Opposition.

They will all share the blame, but I will never forgive the Star for what they did to her and the party I support. I joke about the SUN and its hack journalism and bullshitting, but what the Star did was just as reprehensible.

jerrym

I felt the most dangerous outcome would be a Liberal minority government because the NDP would have the bitter choice of defeating them and face a close to wipeout from the reaction of the public, or supporting a budget they called an election over and losing credibility. 

What a Liberal majority means is that if they implement most of their promises and the economy is doing very well the election will look like an oldstyle PC victory in Alberta except it would be the Liberals. Having raised expectations because of their promises, if they do not implement most of their promises or the economy falters, no new set of promises or leader will save them, as the public will have seen this movie before. In that case, this means that PC and NDP would be duking it out for power with only 5 seats and roughly 5% separating them now. Toronto is a problem for the NDP but if the voters are disenchanted with the Liberals at the next election, the Toronto voters are more likely to turn to the NDP than the PCs, assuming the NDP retunes its program so it is to some extent more union and Toronto-friendly. The PC beachhead in Toronto is gone meaning they will have to abandon their hard right strategy or try to win by sweeping a large portion of the rest of the province. 

A lot has to go for the NDP win the next election, but my honest feeling is that they are better off with this than facing a Liberal minority government.

The cheers of victory often turn to boos. Remember that the careers of most politicians of all parties end in tears (and often in divorce due to the pressures their family lives face). Be gentle.

theleftyinvestor

PrairieDemocrat15 wrote:

ProfShawn wrote:

 Let's not be too dismissive of progressive brothers and sisters in other parties, whether it be Liberals or Greens.

Oh, please, what have the Liberals done in the last 11 years to earn the label "progressive?" They have de-listed healthcare services, privatized electricty, and cut corporate taxes. McGuinty's government was no more progressive than Harper's.

I think the point is, individual progressives who cast a ballot for non-NDP parties have reasons for doing so and do not automatically lose their progressive card. There are a lot of progressives who vote for Liberals. This is indisputable. If NDPers just dismiss those voters as unworthy, or their concerns as unimportant, they are not going to be able to tap into that big pool of voters.

My conviction is that we were at a time and place in politics where an ONDP of big ideas could have captured the imagination of more voters in this election than did Horwath's campaign. There was a space open on the left waiting for that platform and nobody offered it. The fine print of the ONDP platform was on the whole to the left of the Liberals, but it was such fine print that you had to squint to know it was even there.

takeitslowly

From my experience, people didn't care about the election or the platform, the liberals and "progressive" didn't want any election and they blame Andrea Horwath and they made the decision to vote against her since the day the election was called.

PrairieDemocrat15

theleftyinvestor wrote:

PrairieDemocrat15 wrote:

ProfShawn wrote:

 Let's not be too dismissive of progressive brothers and sisters in other parties, whether it be Liberals or Greens.

Oh, please, what have the Liberals done in the last 11 years to earn the label "progressive?" They have de-listed healthcare services, privatized electricty, and cut corporate taxes. McGuinty's government was no more progressive than Harper's.

I think the point is, individual progressives who cast a ballot for non-NDP parties have reasons for doing so and do not automatically lose their progressive card. There are a lot of progressives who vote for Liberals. This is indisputable. If NDPers just dismiss those voters as unworthy, or their concerns as unimportant, they are not going to be able to tap into that big pool of voters.

My conviction is that we were at a time and place in politics where an ONDP of big ideas could have captured the imagination of more voters in this election than did Horwath's campaign. There was a space open on the left waiting for that platform and nobody offered it. The fine print of the ONDP platform was on the whole to the left of the Liberals, but it was such fine print that you had to squint to know it was even there.

Those progressives who voted Liberal instead of NDP because they figured the Wynne Liberals are leftist and Horwath NDP are "right-wing populist" were fooled by a concerted campaign by the Liberal party and media to crush the government's left-opposition. The Star wage a war on Horwath and the NDP, just as it did on Rob Ford - but for much worse reasons. Liberals were saying the NDP is right-wing because theu rejected the government's veneer of a progressive budget. People bought it and also drank the strategic vote kool-aid. Even in T-S, Davenport, and B-E Y I don't think the average voter is politically knowledgeable enough to know voting NDP in those ridings would have no effect on whether or not Hudak gets power. I don't believe even 15% of people in Beaches-East York who voted for Potts share his right-wing views on unions or privatization. That's what makes this whole state of affairs even more frustrating. I'm not dismissing these voters, I'm saying more has to be done to combat the Liberal's and the media's claim that the Grits are a left-leaning party. The Greens must be exposed, too.

takeitslowly

Blame the voters in the GTA. They get what they deserve!

Lord Palmerston

I think Andrea just barely passes the "stay on as leader" threshold: the increase in popular vote, almost as many seats as the Tories.  Of course the party hacks will conveniently forget all the nonsense about how the Liberals were an endangered species and they were on the cusp of displacing the Liberals.

Basically they sacrificed 3 Toronto MPPs in order to make 3 gains elsewhere.  And now they have far less influence than they had before.

Aristotleded24

I think the major takeaway from this election is that rather than thinking of "Ontario" politics, it's important to recognize that the major regions in the province are distinct, and it's important to strike a balance in speaking to all these concerns. The NDP got part of this right by picking up seats outside of Toronto, in Oshawa, Sudbury, Windsor, and improving their relative position in many other constituencies, but unfortunately that came at the expense of crafting a platfrom that could have resonated with the urban/suburban left in Toronto. (To be fair, Toronto is also home to several prominent faux-progressive chattering class types. These people who claim to support the working class, yet sneer at the very populist politics that resonates with this crowd, and would rather throw vitriol at conservative politicians than make an honest effort to hear from the working class what it is about conservative politics that resonates with this crowd in the first place. In that environment with the fear-mongering about Hudak, I'm not sure the NDP really had that much of a chance.) I get a little tired of the chattering classe in Toronto trying to dictate to everyone else what the terms of the election would be (and we saw how successful they were in their own back yard with Smitherman's victory in the 2010 mayoral race) and I feel partly vindicated watching the NDP grow elsewhere.

As to the question of leadership? Horwath is the most popular politician in the province, and she is a known quantity. She may step down, but the risk of having a new leader (aside from the obvious one that the Blairite wing may prevail) also means that it's easy for the party to say, "we have a new leader, we are on our way to victory" without looking at any structural changes that need to take place. Look at the transition between Roy Romanow and Lorne Calvert in Saskatchewan, or Adrian Dix and John Horgan in BC for examples.

And while I'm rambling, I just have to say: how did Hudak manage to survive the PCs losing Waterloo in a by-election? The PCs should have dumped him then!

takeitslowly

"Toronto is also home to several prominent faux-progressive chattering class types. These people who claim to support the working class, yet sneer at the very populist politics that resonates with this crowd, and would rather throw vitriol at conservative politicians than make an honest effort to hear from the working class what it is about conservative politics that resonates with this crowd in the first place. In that environment with the fear-mongering about Hudak, I'm not sure the NDP really had that much of a chance.) I get a little tired of the chattering classe in Toronto trying to dictate to everyone else what the terms of the election would be (and we saw how successful they were in their own back yard with Smitherman's victory in the 2010 mayoral race) and I feel partly vindicated watching the NDP grow elsewhere." - I love this comment, can i steal it?? I am from Toronto, and I love Andrea Horwath, she tapped into why I couldnt support Rob Ford but found myself strangely defending him *in some way* ( i would never voted for him though)

 

I am so tired of this bullshit downtown people.

Aristotleded24

theleftyinvestor wrote:
I think the point is, individual progressives who cast a ballot for non-NDP parties have reasons for doing so and do not automatically lose their progressive card. There are a lot of progressives who vote for Liberals. This is indisputable. If NDPers just dismiss those voters as unworthy, or their concerns as unimportant, they are not going to be able to tap into that big pool of voters.

While working-class voters who vote for the likes of Rob Ford, Tim Hudak, and Stephen Harper on the basis of pocket book issues should be villified and ignored?

Lord Palmerston wrote:
I think Andrea just barely passes the "stay on as leader" threshold: the increase in popular vote, almost as many seats as the Tories.  Of course the party hacks will conveniently forget all the nonsense about how the Liberals were an endangered species and they were on the cusp of displacing the Liberals.

Basically they sacrificed 3 Toronto MPPs in order to make 3 gains elsewhere.  And now they have far less influence than they had before.

While Andrea shares responsibility for this outcome with the loss of 3 MPPs, it's not her fault entirely. I was really irritated listening to the news saying she should step down on the basis of losing the balance of power, but the reason she lost the balance of power is that the PCs imploded very badly. Even had the NDP held its ground in those seats, that still wouldn't have denied Wynne a majority.

The media tried to make it all about a tight race between the Liberals and the PCs, and there was a possibility that the NDP would have been wiped off the map in this scenario. That Horwath kept the NDP in the game, and with less than 10 seats separating them from official opposition status, is remarkable.

josh

Lord Palmerston wrote:

Basically they sacrificed 3 Toronto MPPs in order to make 3 gains elsewhere.  And now they have far less influence than they had before.

Pretty much sums it up.

Rokossovsky

theleftyinvestor wrote:

PrairieDemocrat15 wrote:

ProfShawn wrote:

 Let's not be too dismissive of progressive brothers and sisters in other parties, whether it be Liberals or Greens.

Oh, please, what have the Liberals done in the last 11 years to earn the label "progressive?" They have de-listed healthcare services, privatized electricty, and cut corporate taxes. McGuinty's government was no more progressive than Harper's.

I think the point is, individual progressives who cast a ballot for non-NDP parties have reasons for doing so and do not automatically lose their progressive card. There are a lot of progressives who vote for Liberals. This is indisputable.

I guess our definitions of "progressive" differ. I don't support privatization of key public assets and corporations to fund campaign promises because I believe in public service for the public benefit, not for corporate profit.

This is clearly the agenda of the Liberal Party, as proven by its recent track record, and by its budget.

Being "progressive" is not just about supporting bigger handouts for the needy. That is charity. I believe in creating fundamental changes to the social infrastructure to support all persons.

Aristotleded24

takeitslowly wrote:
"Toronto is also home to several prominent faux-progressive chattering class types. These people who claim to support the working class, yet sneer at the very populist politics that resonates with this crowd, and would rather throw vitriol at conservative politicians than make an honest effort to hear from the working class what it is about conservative politics that resonates with this crowd in the first place. In that environment with the fear-mongering about Hudak, I'm not sure the NDP really had that much of a chance.) I get a little tired of the chattering classe in Toronto trying to dictate to everyone else what the terms of the election would be (and we saw how successful they were in their own back yard with Smitherman's victory in the 2010 mayoral race) and I feel partly vindicated watching the NDP grow elsewhere." - I love this comment, can i steal it??

Not really, because if I say yes, then you have permission, and if you have permission, then technically it isn't stealing!Smile

Absolutely, and the Ford fiasco (not to mention Harper's breakthough north of the 401 the following year) shows how out of touch this class of people is with what's going on in their own back yards. (Remember that the Conservatives had always done better than the NDP in the 416 for several elections, it just didn't show because it didn't have the concentration that the NDP had).

Looking at the transit issue, for example, some downtown people might have been offended by breaks on car insurance (and if she was going to take up this issue she should have gone all the way and promised a public system, but that's a different story), but in many parts of the 416, having a car is a must for transportation, unless you don't mind commuting for one or more hours at a time one way to get to where you need to go. And while I wouldn't try and dismiss issues of urban poverty, that there is poverty in urban areas doesn't really shock people. Suburban poverty is an issue as well. Where urban areas might have more support systems (food banks, community ministries, etc) and are generally built to facilitate interaction among people, it's more hidden in the suburbs. The suburbs are built in a way that isolates people and it may not be feasible to walk to a drop-in or neighbourhood resource centre. So where do you go? How do you support yourself? How do you look for work? The challenges of poverty manifest themselves differently depending on where you live (and I haven't even touched on poverty in rural areas or smaller cities).

Brachina

 I'm glad Andrea Horwath is staying on, I concider Andrea to be a long term  investment like Jack Layton.

Stockholm

If there had not been an election this year - there would have been one next year since the gov't would be near the end of its term - and in all likelhood the Libs would have crushed Hudak then as well - its not as if the NDP actually had anymore leverage with the Liberals anyways. In some ways a Liberal majority is better than another Liberal minority...the reality is that everyone knows the NDP would have been in no position to force another election. they are broke after this one...so they would have had the appearance of holding the balance of power but without actually having it...at least this way the Libs are free to fuck up on their own and quickly become ridiculously unpopular and the NDP can stake out territory as the opposition.

Aristotleded24

takeitslowly wrote:
Aristotleded24 is right though.

 

Its hard to please the downtown crowd. They like the NDP as a pathetic underdog, they would vote for them so they feel like they are enlightened or special and supporting the idealistic party that doesnt have a chance in hell in winning.

 

 

They will jump back to the liberals immediately once feel their most beloved liberal party is under attack by the big scary conservative. Not true supporters to begin with. Good job Andrea , for bringing in new voters. Fuck Toronto. Although I am from Toronto myself.

Ironically enough, Rosario Marchese understood this well, he knew that key to stopping Hudak was for the NDP to take PC seats away from Hudak in areas outside of the GTA where the Liberals aren't a factor, he understood that what played in Toronto may not play in other areas, and this phenomenon we've been discussing played a role in his defeat.

takeitslowly

Aristotleded24 is right though.

 

Its hard to please some of the the downtown crowd who consider themselves to be forward thinking and progressive.

 

They like the NDP as a pathetic underdog, they would vote for them so they feel like they are enlightened or special. In supporting the idealistic party that doesnt have a chance in hell in winning, they feel progressive, different from the rest of the province.

 

 

They will jump back to the liberals immediately once feel their most beloved liberal party is under attack by the big scary conservative. Not true supporters to begin with. Good job Andrea , for bringing in new voters. Fuck Toronto. Although I am from Toronto myself.

 

Horwath should have talked about bike lane or ask for Chow for advice but Chow doesnt seem to want to get involved with the NDP anymore. Oh well.

Rokossovsky

My brief conversations with Marchese and people around him was that he fully endorsed this campaign, and the strategy, and that he knew that it would hurt him. His career was just about over anyway.

takeitslowly

Why was he defeated though? I saw the guy who won and I am like, wow, this dude won because why? He doesn’t even sound remotely progressive.

 

Rosario worked his ass off; I saw the stuffs he posted on facebook. He is so knowledgeable about the needs of his constituents and they voted for THAT GUY.

He wrote so many passionate articles that clearly articulate the reason for calling this election and  I can’t believe he lost by so much!

 

You can’t blame Horwath for this mess. I really think some voters are just not really progressive (except in appearance) and/or they just don’t give a shit enough to read beyond news headlines.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Stockholm wrote:

If there had not been an election this year - there would have been one next year since the gov't would be near the end of its term - and in all likelhood the Libs would have crushed Hudak then as well - its not as if the NDP actually had anymore leverage with the Liberals anyways. In some ways a Liberal majority is better than another Liberal minority...the reality is that everyone knows the NDP would have been in no position to force another election. they are broke after this one...so they would have had the appearance of holding the balance of power but without actually having it...at least this way the Libs are free to fuck up on their own and quickly become ridiculously unpopular and the NDP can stake out territory as the opposition.

Oh, hi.  Welcome back.  Feeling better now?

Rokossovsky

I'd like to see Horwath move on, and run federally. NDP will need a popular name to carry the party in Ontario, and Horwath is it.

PrairieDemocrat15

Rokossovsky wrote:

I'd like to see Horwath move on, and run federally. NDP will need a popular name to carry the party in Ontario, and Horwath is it.

Could she hurt federal NDP incumbents in Toronto? Do you think they are as threatened as their provinical counterparts?

Since 1993 a Liberal is a Liberal is a Liberal (i.e. Neoliberal), but its clear Wynne has shifted her party to the left, repudiating the most right-wing aspects of the McGuinty era. It seems to me Trudeau has moved the federal Liberals to the right, so one would think he would be less dangerous in downtown Toronto.

Rokossovsky

PrairieDemocrat15 wrote:

Rokossovsky wrote:

I'd like to see Horwath move on, and run federally. NDP will need a popular name to carry the party in Ontario, and Horwath is it.

Could she hurt federal NDP incumbents in Toronto? Do you think they are as threatened as their provinical counterparts?

Since 1993 a Liberal is a Liberal is a Liberal (i.e. Neoliberal), but its clear Wynne has shifted her party to the left, repudiating the most right-wing aspects of the McGuinty era. It seems to me Trudeau has moved the federal Liberals to the right, so one would think he would be less dangerous in downtown Toronto.

Really? As far as I know the last thing the Liberals said was the corporate tax reductions were "on hold". That isn't repudiating them.

PrairieDemocrat15

Rokossovsky wrote:

PrairieDemocrat15 wrote:

Rokossovsky wrote:

I'd like to see Horwath move on, and run federally. NDP will need a popular name to carry the party in Ontario, and Horwath is it.

Could she hurt federal NDP incumbents in Toronto? Do you think they are as threatened as their provinical counterparts?

Since 1993 a Liberal is a Liberal is a Liberal (i.e. Neoliberal), but its clear Wynne has shifted her party to the left, repudiating the most right-wing aspects of the McGuinty era. It seems to me Trudeau has moved the federal Liberals to the right, so one would think he would be less dangerous in downtown Toronto.

Really? As far as I know the last thing the Liberals said was the corporate tax reductions were "on hold". That isn't repudiating them.

Cancelling ONTC sale, raising income taxes, promoting pensions. There have been a few things. Besides, you can't argue Wynne has at least been portrayed and percieved as more progressive than McGuinty. The media also kept telling everyone the Liberals were to the left of the NDP. Nobody is saying that of the federal parties.

Also, the blue boogeyman argument will not be as effective given Harper will have been in power for 9 years come 2015.

Muclair also likes to bring up the Liberals propensity to flash left and shift right. I didn't Horwath remind voters of this once. She defended her platform well enough, but didn't attack the Liberals on anything besides waste and corruption. I don't get why she didn't bring up the year of Liberal service and tax cuts and privatization. Mulcair has made a point to talk about Liberal lies and austerity/privatization.

Rokossovsky

PrairieDemocrat15 wrote:

Rokossovsky wrote:

PrairieDemocrat15 wrote:

Rokossovsky wrote:

I'd like to see Horwath move on, and run federally. NDP will need a popular name to carry the party in Ontario, and Horwath is it.

Could she hurt federal NDP incumbents in Toronto? Do you think they are as threatened as their provinical counterparts?

Since 1993 a Liberal is a Liberal is a Liberal (i.e. Neoliberal), but its clear Wynne has shifted her party to the left, repudiating the most right-wing aspects of the McGuinty era. It seems to me Trudeau has moved the federal Liberals to the right, so one would think he would be less dangerous in downtown Toronto.

Really? As far as I know the last thing the Liberals said was the corporate tax reductions were "on hold". That isn't repudiating them.

Cancelling ONTC sale, raising income taxes, promoting pensions. There have been a few things. Besides, you can't argue Wynne has at least been portrayed and percieved as more progressive than McGuinty. The media also kept telling everyone the Liberals were to the left of the NDP. Nobody is saying that of the federal parties.

People now think that a party that supports reduction in consumption taxes, is against privatization and promotes corporate taxation is right wing.

I give up. Lol.

 

Rokossovsky

Anyway, we now know that the EKOS and Forum Polls were total crap.

Skinny Dipper

Kathleen Wynne's Liberal majority probably means that the Liberal government will likely not present an "NDP-style" budget.  It will be a more right-wing Liberal budget.  She will be tough against the public service unions.  There will likely be budget cuts in services as well.

As for Andrea Horwath, she held her own.  However, I don't think she will be able to get the Ontario NDP ready four years from now if she runs a boutique campaign again of lower auto insurance rates and no HST (provincial portion) on hydro.  I do think the party needs a new leader who can present a grand vision for Ontario.

PrairieDemocrat15

Rokossovsky wrote:

PrairieDemocrat15 wrote:

Rokossovsky wrote:

PrairieDemocrat15 wrote:

Rokossovsky wrote:

I'd like to see Horwath move on, and run federally. NDP will need a popular name to carry the party in Ontario, and Horwath is it.

Could she hurt federal NDP incumbents in Toronto? Do you think they are as threatened as their provinical counterparts?

Since 1993 a Liberal is a Liberal is a Liberal (i.e. Neoliberal), but its clear Wynne has shifted her party to the left, repudiating the most right-wing aspects of the McGuinty era. It seems to me Trudeau has moved the federal Liberals to the right, so one would think he would be less dangerous in downtown Toronto.

Really? As far as I know the last thing the Liberals said was the corporate tax reductions were "on hold". That isn't repudiating them.

Cancelling ONTC sale, raising income taxes, promoting pensions. There have been a few things. Besides, you can't argue Wynne has at least been portrayed and percieved as more progressive than McGuinty. The media also kept telling everyone the Liberals were to the left of the NDP. Nobody is saying that of the federal parties.

People now think that a party that supports reduction in consumption taxes, is against privatization and promotes corporate taxation is right wing.

I give up. Lol.

 

I don't think that, but a lot of voter in Toronto were convinced as much.

nicky

Andrea has earned the right to stay on if she wishes.

She has raised the party's standing from 16.7% and 10 seats in 2010 to 23.8% and 21 seats today.She has greatly extended the party's base in many new ridings which we did not win

She persevered through a difficult campaign with no media support and a climate rife for polarization fostered by the threat of a hard right government. She was repeatedly vilified by the largest paper in the province which unfairly undermined her at every turn. she was vastly outspent by her opponents who take advantage of spending laws that still allow for large corporate donations.

And she had to face the criticism of the group of braying hyenas called the group of 34 (5 of of whom were actually members of the NDP but who were touted as the equivalent of Tommy Douglas by her enemies.)

Despite all this she campaigned with honour and dignity and did the party proud.

Good for you Andrea. You have my support as well as that of almost all New Democrats in Ontario.

Brachina

 Andrea personal popularity and intergity is a huge asset to the NDP, its some of her advisors who need to be replaced. 

 And lets not put all the blame on Andrea, this Hudak gunning for defeat with promises like cutting a 100,000 jobs and a Liberal many feel is a closet New Democract this was always going to be a difficult battle, its a miracle that the NDP wasn't crushed.

 

 Still lets not pretend mistakes weren't made, while the GST cut to hydro wasn't a problem, going overboard on the Tory language was, it left us vulnerible to the star and the libs in TO, a more balanced approach next time, a mix of popularism with more red meat for the base will be the ticket, and more balance between the issue of  corruption and other policies would be best.

 

 Andrea's smart and she'll learn from this.  This is also a chance next time to get fresh blood into TO.

Caissa

Time to turf her and get a left-leaning leader.

josh

Brachina wrote:

 Andrea's smart and she'll learn from this.  This is also a chance next time to get fresh blood into TO.

The blood wasn't the problem, except a lot of it was spilt. The person responsible for ithe spill should not be giving the transfusions.

Ciabatta2

I think Marchese's loss was inevitable for the NDP.  I think Schein was in tough against an organized opponent this time, regardless of the NDP's platform.

But I think Prue loss is completely down to the platforms of the two parties.  ( I can totally imagine him saying "It's one thing to lose, but to lose to Arhur Fucking Potts!?!?!?!")

Toronto doesn't hold that much promise for the NDP in its current style, but there's not that much promise outside of Toronto either.  I think the NDP party is in a tough spot.  Yes, the vote went up, yes they won in Windsor, Sudbury and Oshawa but the southwestern results didn't pan out into seats and the "close" races for the NDP like London North Centre and Sarnia and Chatham really aren't THAT close.  Kingston and Thunder Bay and Scarborough weren't close at all.

But you can't totally rule out the direction the NDP went in this election because that party wasn't crushed, and people were open to it.  The expected oblivion (mine included) didn't happen.  But that direction doesn't leave room to build on.

That's what NDPers will have to consider.

theleftyinvestor

PrairieDemocrat15 wrote:

Those progressives who voted Liberal instead of NDP because they figured the Wynne Liberals are leftist and Horwath NDP are "right-wing populist" were fooled by a concerted campaign by the Liberal party and media to crush the government's left-opposition. The Star wage a war on Horwath and the NDP, just as it did on Rob Ford - but for much worse reasons. Liberals were saying the NDP is right-wing because theu rejected the government's veneer of a progressive budget. People bought it and also drank the strategic vote kool-aid. Even in T-S, Davenport, and B-E Y I don't think the average voter is politically knowledgeable enough to know voting NDP in those ridings would have no effect on whether or not Hudak gets power. I don't believe even 15% of people in Beaches-East York who voted for Potts share his right-wing views on unions or privatization. That's what makes this whole state of affairs even more frustrating. I'm not dismissing these voters, I'm saying more has to be done to combat the Liberal's and the media's claim that the Grits are a left-leaning party. The Greens must be exposed, too.

If the Liberals were fooling Toronto progressives, what was the NDP doing to try and court them back into the fold? Will the NDP have a better chance of getting those voters back by antagonism or inspiration? Hint, they already tried antagonism.

Incidentally a look at the preliminary numbers suggests a more complicated story in the lost Toronto ridings. The NDP lost a relatively small number of voters, but turnout increased and it massively benefited Liberals. Some voters did indeed swing from NDP to Liberal but what I mainly take from the Toronto numbers is the NDP GOTV machine flopped and the Liberals' worked really well. As I have posted before, the NDP-or-stay-home swing voters are an important factor here too.

theleftyinvestor

Aristotleded24 wrote:

While working-class voters who vote for the likes of Rob Ford, Tim Hudak, and Stephen Harper on the basis of pocket book issues should be villified and ignored?

Are pocketbook issues the only way to get those voters to the orange team? Wasn't there a time when bigger broader ideas inspired the working class to be a part of the NDP?

Can the NDP come up with pocketbook issues that their entire base actually *likes*?

When everyone is finished venting their anger, can we stop with the "Fuck Toronto", the "faux-progressives" talk, and ask how to come up with a campaign that brings out the good in the electorate?

Unionist

theleftyinvestor wrote:

Aristotleded24 wrote:

While working-class voters who vote for the likes of Rob Ford, Tim Hudak, and Stephen Harper on the basis of pocket book issues should be villified and ignored?

Are pocketbook issues the only way to get those voters to the orange team? Wasn't there a time when bigger broader ideas inspired the working class to be a part of the NDP?

Can the NDP come up with pocketbook issues that their entire base actually *likes*?

When everyone is finished venting their anger, can we stop with the "Fuck Toronto", the "faux-progressives" talk, and ask how to come up with a campaign that brings out the good in the electorate?

Agreed, leftyinvestor - but maybe stop buying into A24's condescending delusion about who the working class is and what interests them. More than anything, the working class hates false friends. They have not forgotten the betrayal of the ONDP government, and they saw the same dismal performance in this election campaign.

Rather than get "these voters to the orange team", might I suggest purging or disbanding the "orange team", and get a new team to "these voters"?

 

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