Cheri DiNovo wants Ontario to ban 'conversion therapy' for LBGT youth

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Sineed

TiradeFaction wrote:
You really believe homophobic families are more accepting of transgendered children?

It's weird and it doesn't make sense to me either, but social conservatives seem to be more accepting of trans than of gay. Consider how the Republicans are embracing Caitlyn Jenner.

TiradeFaction wrote:
Pretty insulting to us who've had to deal with bigoted parents, not even mentioning the very high trans youth suicide rate.

Considering the suicide risk, care should be taken before giving kids a drug that increases their risk of suicide. Lupron, the drug used off-label to block puberty, causes depressive symptoms in one-third of people who take it.

 

Pondering

Early on, I attempted a mild form of Zucker’s system with my own child. I tried to encourage more “masculine” activities, suggesting karate classes when she wanted to sign up for ballet (we compromised on co-ed gymnastics). She wanted an all-pink wardrobe; I pushed for red, purple, pastel blue. I encouraged more play dates with boys and more time with her dad.

But ultimately, I couldn’t stomach the idea of denying my child the things she loved nor bear to see her so unhappy. Her last Christmas as a boy was a disaster. After the packages had all been opened, she sat glumly amid the piles of shredded wrapping paper and surveyed the collection of shiny new trucks, sports equipment, building blocks, and dinosaur figurines. “Didn’t Santa get my letter?” she said.

I watched her valiantly attempt to muster some enthusiasm for a truck with purple wheels and I swore that Santa wouldn’t break my kid’s heart ever again.

But my real turning point came about a year after she first told me she was a girl. I attended a support group for the parents of transgender and gender-nonconforming kids and heard a story that kept me up at night for weeks afterward. A young mother sat across the table from me, sobbing her heart out as she told us what had happened to her 5-year-old when a local psychologist advised a regimen reminiscent of Zucker’s.

“I took away all his dolls, all his most favorite things. I told him he was a boy and that’s that, because that’s what the doctor said to do,” she said. Within a couple of months, her kindergartener had stopped speaking and was diagnosed with severe depression. “I almost lost him,” she said.

The story haunted me because my child had recently begun a similar disappearing act. After months of fighting me (“I’m a girl!”), the kid was giving up. She stopped correcting me when I used her hated “boy name,” shrugged when I suggested karate lessons yet again, and gazed silently and sadly at the haze of forbidden pink in the “girl aisle” at the toy store. Another mom in the support group witnessed the same phenomenon in her child and described it perfectly: “My 4-year-old looked like a tired old man.”

http://www.leaderpost.com/health/Boys+will+boys+sometimes/10834947/story...

Transgender stories of stories of boys transitioning to girls are far more prevalent. You can be a girl and like trucks and not like dresses or pink but you cannot be a boy and wear dresses and like dolls. Therefore, if a boy likes dresses and dolls he must really be a girl. It is probably the only way he can get to wear dresses and play with dolls with other children. Only girls do that.

It is important to recognize and respect a child's gender identity but we should also be able to say you don't have to be a girl to wear a dress and play with make-up or with dolls. You can be a boy and still do those things. I can't help but wonder how gender fluidity would present itself in a minimally gendered world. I am not in any way claiming that it wouldn't exist but we should also be cautious that we are not pushing transition on effeminate males or masculine girls so they fit socially imposed gender roles.

Cross-dressing girls are a staple. They are portrayed as brave and clever for passing themselves off as boys to go out in the world. It is easy to understand a girl wanting to be a boy. There is no tradition of stories about boys passing themselves off as girls.

I don't agree with Dr. Zucker's approach but I don't think young children's claims of being the opposite sex should be taken at face value either considering the intense pressure to conform to gender roles children are under.

 

6079_Smith_W

TiradeFaction  calling people dense and asking what they are smoking doesn't do anything  to make an already divisive situation any better.

Besides, it reflects more on the speaker than on the person it is directed at.

 

TiradeFaction

Sineed wrote:
There are some in the gay community who are questioning whether this modern trend to trans children is at least in part motivated by homophobia; ie, your gay son becomes your straight daughter.

I wasn't going to respond to you again because it seemed pretty obvious this is just a retrend of the same ol Zucker, Dreger, Blanchard stuff that went on 10 years ago, until I noticed this nugget. Are you fucking serious? You really believe homophobic families are more accepting of transgendered children? Pretty insulting to us who've had to deal with bigoted parents, not even mentioning the very high trans youth suicide rate.

TiradeFaction

Sineed wrote:
Consider how the Republicans are embracing Caitlyn Jenner.

Uh, they are not? The usual suspects like Rush Limbaugh and the like have actually made disparaging comments towards her.

Sineed wrote:
Considering the suicide risk

I was referring to the fact that many trans youth (and older as well) commit suicide largely because of family and community shunning. You know, this was recently in the news with Leelah Alcorn. Shunned by the same group of people you claim are much more accepting of trans people. You're postulating basically a conspiracy theory (allegedly advocated by "some in the gay community") that this is about turning gay kids into "straight people". One completely unfounded.

TiradeFaction

6079_Smith_W wrote:

TiradeFaction  calling people dense and asking what they are smoking doesn't do anything  to make an already divisive situation any better.

Besides, it reflects more on the speaker than on the person it is directed at.

Fair enough. I could have been more respectful in my responses towards his/her more egregious points. Apologies to Sineed if I offended them. I'll refrain from any personal insults in the future.

Sineed

TiradeFaction wrote:
Apologies to Sineed if I offended them. I'll refrain from any personal insults in the future.

Not offended. I respect your passion on this topic.

Some history: as babble's resident cranky pharmacist, I have spoken out in favour of science-based medicine. A couple of years ago, a transwoman colleague asked me to research the safety of long-term hormone supplementation. At the time, I was in graduate school and had full access to a university medical database. I was surprised to find that there was no such research, and that the science around transgender treatments was sketchy at best.

I also discovered that there was a lot of aggressive invective online directed towards radical feminists who expressed concern over the loss of female-only spaces and the rhetoric that erases the reality of the biologically-based oppression of women (eg., this tweet: "Calling it 'female genital mutilation' is cissexist. Just sayin."). I think it's much more useful to discuss these issues rather than make baseless accusations of hatred and try to shut people down.

PS: my preferred pronouns are "she" and "her." I respect anyone's pronoun choices. But don't call me cis.

Brachina

 Outside of Iran, I don't know of anywhere socons are more tolerant of Transgendered people then gays, if fact its usually the.opposite. 

 

 Lets come down to brass tacks Sineed, your an anti Transgender biogot, your willing to subject Trans Childern to tramatic brain washing in order to your female safe spaces remain untainted by what you see as having an element of maleness to them, its honestly sad your willing to inflict damage on these childern because you can't deal with you're deep seated issues.

 If you weren't a radical feminist you'd have been banned long ago, but transphobia and biogotry get a free pass for radical feminists, meanwhile equity feminists like me get treated like demons for daring to call you on your shit. Your transphobia damages everyone who calls themselves feminist.

takeitslowly

CAMH has been damaging to my friend because she wanted to transition at an early age but she felt that her issue was not taken seriously. She has been afraid to go back ever since then. The fact that we only have one institution that allows trans people to gain government funded sex confirmation surgery is troubling. There is so little access to mental health in general.

onlinediscountanvils

quizzical wrote:

imv sineed's observation is a truthful one. your comments indicate a one position reality.

What do you mean?

ETA: Nevermind. Keep driving, quizzy.

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

The problem of defining an "opposite" is that one tends to dominate the other.

Pondering

takeitslowly wrote:

CAMH has been damaging to my friend because she wanted to transition at an early age but she felt that her issue was not taken seriously. She has been afraid to go back ever since then. The fact that we only have one institution that allows trans people to gain government funded sex confirmation surgery is troubling. There is so little access to mental health in general.

You are absolutely right. Access to appropriate treatment is patchy across Canada and you are right about the more general lack of mental health care that permeates the system.

I have looked but could not find a recent article defending Dr. Zucker by a mother who said her child did transition under Dr. Zucker but she knew many other children in the program who did grow up non-transgendered and who did have other issues, such as anxiety, that when treated did lead to well adjusted happy non-transgendered adults. I do think claims of being transgendered need to be carefully evaluated before supporting transition.

But more recently I read another article explaining how Dr. Zucker recommended denying boys the activities or clothing that they preferred based on trying to mold them into gender appropriate behaviors based on birth sex.

I am appalled by the notion that boys can't like pretty things or dresses and still be considered normal boys. Basically the message is if you like these things you must be a woman.

How can we achieve a balance between recognizing children who are really transgender and supporting their transition while not pushing non gender-conforming boys to transition because they want to wear dresses and play with dolls?

On the other hand, if a boy is not transgender, is it fair to let him go out in the world wearing dresses while identifying as a boy knowing the kind of censure he will suffer?

It's easy to "pass" as a girl right into late puberty and early transition has many medical benefits. On the other hand there is a risk of permanent infertility from the drugs.

On the other other hand so far numbers heavily favor better outcomes for people who transition and the earlier the better. We have seen amazing results for young women who received treatment early. It is not insignificant as it translates into far less need for surgery later and completely avoids the development of some masculine characteristics that are permanent.

I am glad Dr. Zucker's clinic is under investigation. I hope the conclusion is satisfactory. Regardless more clinics are needed and timely access is critical as is coverage of all the necessary procedures in all the provinces.

I still think caution is in order based on the strict gendering of society but that is all the more reason for rapid individualized care by trained professionals. On the other hand, Zucker is a highly respected professional that helped write the definition for gender dysphoria so that's no garantee of appropriate treatment.

The issue of whether or not we are born gendered and what that means is an entirely different subject.

It is not transphobic to question the claim that we are all born gendered separate from our biological sex. Feminist theory of gender as a social construct was not created to harass trans women. It is a core feminist theory.

MegB

Brachina wrote:

 Outside of Iran, I don't know of anywhere socons are more tolerant of Transgendered people then gays, if fact its usually the.opposite. 

 

 Lets come down to brass tacks Sineed, your an anti Transgender biogot, your willing to subject Trans Childern to tramatic brain washing in order to your female safe spaces remain untainted by what you see as having an element of maleness to them, its honestly sad your willing to inflict damage on these childern because you can't deal with you're deep seated issues.

 If you weren't a radical feminist you'd have been banned long ago, but transphobia and biogotry get a free pass for radical feminists, meanwhile equity feminists like me get treated like demons for daring to call you on your shit. Your transphobia damages everyone who calls themselves feminist.

Personal attack. Dial it back please.

abnormal

Just came across this

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ont-conversion-therapy-ban-...

Among other things it includes a claim by CAMH that they do not practice conversion therapy.  Not exactly consistent with statements they made earlier.

 

quizzical

wrong thread

abnormal

This fits here

 

Quote:
Suicide risk for trans people can be reduced, new study shows

.....

The study, published June 2 in the journal BMC Public Health, found a connection between the risk of suicide amongst transgender people and factors such as parental support, transphobia and ease of access to a medical transition, if the person desires one.

This is the first evidence that transgender people could be at a higher risk of suicide because of modifiable factors in their lives, rather than because of innate discomfort at being transgender, the study’s authors say.

....

....

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/suicide-ri...

 

 

 

abnormal

Quote:
The Centre for Addiction and Mental Health is "winding down" its gender identity services for children and youth after an external review found its approach was out of step with accepted clinical practice.

The review by two independent clinicians was sparked by criticisms that the Toronto centre's Child Youth and Family Gender Identity Clinic was practising conversion therapy.

Conversion therapy discourages those who identify as transgender from embracing their non-biological sex.

etc ...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/camh-gender-identity-1.3366424

I know that CAMH suspended its intake of new children and youth patients some months back when their practices were first questioned.  But this does raise a question regarding the treatment of young transgendered individuals.  Since CAMH is the only centre in Ontario that can evaluate patients and decide if their treatment will be covered by OHIP it sounds like young people are simply being thrown under the bus.  

After I wrote that I found this 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/transgender-ontario-1.3307287

Supposedly centres other than CAMH will be allowed to provide referals starting in 2016

abnormal

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