DiNovo: ONDP Must Acknowledge Election "Debacle"

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Geoff

Stockholm wrote:

autoworker wrote:
The ONDP needs to reinvent itself, beginning with the socialist factions leaving, and forming their own party. Far left politics will never become mainstream in Canada-- not even in Quebec. It's time for a redefinition of progressivism.

Most of the tiny number of people in the ONDP who were "far left socialists" have already left and formed ther Socialist Party of Ontario. The ragtag handful of people in the so-called "socialist caucus" who are still in the NDP make up at most about 1% of the party and are essentially a fringe group.

I thought the Socialist Party of Ontario was dead, but I checked the new website - the old link had died ages ago.  Apparently, they ran only ran two candidates.  It looks more like the Socialist Party of Downtown Toronto.  Apart from choosing not to work within the NDP, how do the views of the SPO differ from those of the Socialist Caucus?  Just curious.  

terrytowel

Kathleen Wynne on Andrea Horwath NDP platform

"She didn’t have a plan. Frankly, I was surprised at her lack of preparedness."

Toronto Life, August 2014

DaveW

 

following an apologia, Bob Rae on Wynne's fiscal choices:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/i-refused-to-play-the-conser...

What many commenters gloss over is that the government I led maintained public investment, saved tens of thousands of jobs and, yes, made difficult decisions on expenditure restraint – for the simple reason that most of what any provincial government spends goes to wages – and that we chose to restrain take-home pay instead of cutting jobs and services.

We had a transit plan, which the Conservatives cancelled. We would have had a train to the airport and a subway to York University, as well as an integrated GO and TTC a full fifteen years ago, if underground tunnels had not been filled in with concrete. We had a housing plan, which the Conservatives cancelled, and affordable housing has languished terribly since 1995. We did not, admittedly, slash income-support programs, or fire thousands of nurses or teachers. Those events were to come.

Ontario had the fastest rate of growth in the G-7 after 1993, and as corporate profits and incomes improved, the tax base strengthened after 1995, when the Conservatives took over. They succeeded in temporarily balancing the books by selling the 407 for far less than it was really worth. But Ontario fell back into deficit – with low unemployment and reasonable growth before the Conservatives were defeated by Mr. McGuinty in 2003.

 

 

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

Rae does say that Ottawa is not doing anything about climate change. I have been harping on the Liberals about the same thing. I have also been ranting about social housing. As Alberta is the heart of the production of hydrocarbons, the GTA is the heart of its consumption. Moving Ontario to sustainability and efficiency would provide a lot of work, as would social housing.

Still, the knife goes in. Rae says we need to move to consumption taxes over income taxes, which would benefit "middle class families". Poppycock. Most of us don't have a lot of money, so what are you going to do, tax food?

The taxation problem isn't at the bottom. It is at the top. Hire a good accountant, and they will write you down to practically nothing. We need some kind of Minimum Tax Rate for high income earners. In the long run it will make it cheaper to pay your taxes than to try to write it off. As Quebec Solidaire found out, prominent Quebec politicians had offshore financial dealings. As these people are not particularly financial bigshots it makes you wonder if the practice is not rampant. The towers on Bay St. are silent and at your service.

KeyStone

Whiie I'm not keen on Cheri's 'Israel can do no wrong' mantra, she's pretty fantastic other than that. A truly courageous politician who isn't afraid to speak her mind or challenge the status quo. the ONDP could do a a lot worse than making her the party leader as opposed to a politician who bases her campaign on insubstantiave policies built around slogans pandering to the lowest common denominator.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

terrytowel wrote:

Kathleen Wynne on Andrea Horwath NDP platform

"She didn’t have a plan. Frankly, I was surprised at her lack of preparedness."

Toronto Life, August 2014

The leader of the Ontario Liberal Party attacks the leader of the Ontario NDP.  And this is news because...?

Geoff

Ken Burch wrote:

terrytowel wrote:

Kathleen Wynne on Andrea Horwath NDP platform

"She didn’t have a plan. Frankly, I was surprised at her lack of preparedness."

Toronto Life, August 2014

The leader of the Ontario Liberal Party attacks the leader of the Ontario NDP.  And this is news because...?

Because, despite my 30-year membership in the NDP, I think Wynne is right.

Stockholm

Interestingly Cheri DiNovo has been saying a lot of nice things in public about Andrea Horwath lately and has praised her for having returned to her social justice roots etc...If Horwath has succeeded in getting people like Schein and DiNovo to back her than  i suspect she will get a massive vote of confidence and the "insurrection" against her will end up being a very wet fire cracker.

Sean in Ottawa

Geoff wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

terrytowel wrote:

Kathleen Wynne on Andrea Horwath NDP platform

"She didn’t have a plan. Frankly, I was surprised at her lack of preparedness."

Toronto Life, August 2014

The leader of the Ontario Liberal Party attacks the leader of the Ontario NDP.  And this is news because...?

Because, despite my 30-year membership in the NDP, I think Wynne is right.

I have to agree. I voted NDP but there was no enthusiasm.

Certainly they must be responsible for why a comment like that would ring true.

Geoff

If Andrea is toppled and replaced by someone who is pretty much the same, what have we gained?  I know it's been discussed before on Rabble, but I don't think we have a definitive answer to the question, if not Andrea, then who? 

Also, as important as a leader is to a political party, there are many others who wield power in the backrooms.  If we change only the leader, how much difference will it make, anyway?  If party members believe change is necessary, then do we not have to make a clean sweep of it?

Stockholm

Geoff wrote:

Also, as important as a leader is to a political party, there are many others who wield power in the backrooms.  If we change only the leader, how much difference will it make, anyway?  

Its worth noting that most members did not realize it, but Horwath was the status quo candidate when she won the leadership in 2009 and she was backed by all the "dead wood" in Howard Hampton's office. Tabuns was the one who would have brought in a whole new team of people. But because he was middle aged, grey-haired male and she was this young seemingly vibrant woman - people who didn't know any better thought that she represented change more than he did.

terrytowel

Poll from Maple Stratgies has been broken down by party voting intentions.

Rob Ford’s coalition is comprised of a base of Conservatives supplemented with a small contingent of NDP’ers who are likely drawn by his populist approach.

In fact those polled who idenitfy as NDP supporters, almost a quarter of them (24%) are supporting Ford!

Andrea must of been on to something when she started going after the Rob Ford/Toronto Sun/Tim Horton's voter with her populist message.

http://mapleleafstrategies.com/below-the-topline-additional-observations...

As Rokossovsky said in another thread as to why Andrea was chasing after the Rob Ford/Toronto Sun/Tim Horton's voter

Rokossovsky wrote:

Ignoring the fact that many of the so called Rob Ford/Toronto Sun/Tim Horton's voters are the actual real working class voters who the NDP has drifted away from over the years in favour of the liberal left intelligentsia. Underlying this characterization of the so called "Conservative" voters is a great deal of class stigmatization, precisely the kind that has made the NDP unelectable and Rob Ford electable, as when he advocates against the "downtown liberal elite".

Horwath got the Rob Ford message, and tuned her message to dealing with the everyday problems that confront ordinary people in Ontario when they are faced with being made to pay for services through increased fees and regressive consumption taxes, when the same services had previously been picked up by the business sector and the rich, through corporate taxes and income taxes.

Since when did addressing the real bread and butter issues of the working class become "right-wing" -- only in the minds of some who are so disconnected from realities of lower class and lower middle class people.

Where the "progressive left" has gone off the rails is allowing the right to maniuplate the genuine anger and opposition of the less well-to-do against fees and regressive taxation. Sure this is just part of the their "small government" mantra, but that does not make opposition to consumption taxes essentially right wing. It is the right that has stolen the position of the left, not Horwath who has taken up a right wing position. She simply reclaimed the terrain.

The progressive left made a grevious strategic error when it abandoned principled opposition to consumption taxes and fees and bought into the neo-Liberal economic plan of downloading of costs by supporting increased fees and taxes in order to compensate for revenue lost to McGuinty's tax cuts.

When it did so, the left in Toronto lost the working class to the right and Rob Ford was elected -- the "rate supported budget" of the Gross City of Toronto operating budget went up astronomically under Miller.

The "traditional" base that you speak of, is actually not so. The traditional base of the NDP is the working class. Removing consumption taxes, and increasing corporate taxes in order to fund public service is to the NDP as apple pie is to America -- it is only some confused advocates of "charity" politics, like Judy Rebick who think that "expenditures" are more important than who is paying for what, and through what tax mechanism that is the key to redistribution of wealth through implementing progressive tax policy.

That left the NDP fighting competing with the rump of the progressive left in the city of Toronto.

Good riddance to them, I say.

Horwath's campaign certainly had many faults, but on the key point of trying to regain the support of the traditional working class through addressing their economic needs was dead on the money.

And in many areas the Horwath approach was extremely successful. Indeed it has been a long time since the ONDP was the alternative vote to the Conservative in Western Ontario -- it is now.

Winning back the support of voters who have drifted to support the right out of disaffection with the status quo Liberal corruption, and an NDP that failed to address those concerns is in fact the only way the NDP can beat "strategic voting" grid lock.

terrytowel

Andrea Horwath faces backlash from fellow New Democrats: Martin Regg Cohn

A rebellion is gathering momentum not just in Toronto, where the NDP was routed, but across Northern Ontario and the rest of the province.

“Andrea is fighting for her life,” says one long-time party worker who has sat in on the party’s internal machinations in recent months.

“Among a very large section of the activist base there is little more than contempt for her,” said the NDP loyalist, who requested confidentiality to speak candidly about the manoeuvres.

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2014/09/06/andrea_horwath_faces_b...

Stockholm

Everyt time the notorious NDP-hater Martin Regg Cohn writes a column attacking Horwath - her support within the NDP INCREASES. I have a hunch that when all the dust settles she will get a solid vote of confidence at the convention - partly because since the election she has done a lot of address the complaints and partly because NO ONE has ever been able to suggest a single solitary name of anyone who would be a credible successor to her. Usually leadership coups succeed when there is an obvious (better) successor waiting in the wings - in the absence of that I suspect delegates will figure, "better the devil we know than the devil we don't" 

infracaninophile infracaninophile's picture

Geoff wrote:

If Andrea is toppled and replaced by someone who is pretty much the same, what have we gained?  I know it's been discussed before on Rabble, but I don't think we have a definitive answer to the question, if not Andrea, then who? 

Also, as important as a leader is to a political party, there are many others who wield power in the backrooms.  If we change only the leader, how much difference will it make, anyway?

I'm with Geoff on this one. I have no strong feelings one way or another about Andrea Horwath -- she seemed a good candidate to me, until ther ostrich impersonation  about bill 115 and then the disastrous campaign. I too think unfortunately Kathleen Wynne was correct. She had really no vision or platform to speak of, and although I voted NDP, I would have voted for a prank party like the Rhinos if I could have. I don't see anyone else in the wings who would be demonstrably better, and though the leader is the public face of the party, the swamp in which we find ourselves now is the doing of many peoiple.  I suspect (cynically) that Andrea's pretense of listening to the membership and so on is just that, a pretense. I am not optimistic that we will see any meaningful change of direction or policy. I hope I am wrong.

Debater

Should Olivia Chow run for Ontario NDP leader if she loses to John Tory in October?

Chow would be a higher-profile leader than Horwath, might have appeal to left of center Liberal voters, and might be more competitive in Toronto with Kathleen Wynne than Horwath.

terrytowel

Olivia Chow would be even worse for the NDP. I said this before and I'll say it again. Her problem in the current mayor's race is a messaging problem.

She has not mastered the art of the 30 second soundbite, and she has struggled when giving speeches. Not getting her message out clearly. There is a language barrier, she should have taken speech lessons to correct her punctuation.

She has a huge communication deficit and is unable to connect with the voters.

It is one thing to run in a riding and win, but another to do a city-wide or province-wide campaign.

If she were to be NDP leader, the party will go into a freefall and Wynne's Liberals will capitalize on that.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Lets see a Toronto politician who couldn''t win a Mayors race.  Nice suggestion for your rival.

Debater

There are many politicians who go on to become party leaders despite not winning a Mayor's race.

Anyone heard of Jack Layton?

Stockholm

John Tory became Ontario PC leader after losing the Toronto mayoralty. That being said, I don't see Chow as being at all cut out to be a leader at the provincial level...if Horwath goes the next leader would likely be Catherine Fife

Debater

Yes, John Tory was another one.  That's my point.  Layton lost when he ran for Mayor of Toronto, but it didn't prevent him from becoming NDP leader.  And as you say, John Tory became PC leader even though he lost a Toronto Mayor's race, too.

Stockholm

However John Tory lost a mayoral race in 2003 that no one ever expected him to win and he exceeded expectations...he started out polling in single digits and ended up losing to Miller 44%-40% - even though Tory lost he was viewed as having run an effective campaign. I don't recall anyone talking up Barbara Hall as a procincial leader after she got 11% in 2003...and for some reason George Smitherman did not try to succeed McGuinty either.

Debater

Smitherman had already left cabinet when he ran for Mayor.  Why would he go back into the Ontario Liberals?  His provincial career was over then.  I think his only plans were to maybe switch to federal politics at that point.

Anyway, what about when Jack Layton ran for NDP leader even though he had lost when he ran for Mayor of Toronto?

Stockholm

Debater wrote:

Anyway, what about when Jack Layton ran for NDP leader even though he had lost when he ran for Mayor of Toronto?

There was a 12 year gap between Jack Layton losing the Toronto mayoralty and him running to be leader of the federal NDP and during that time he served several terms on council and became President of the Federation of Canadian Municipalities etc...it took him a long time to reinvent himself after the 1991 mayoral contest. The federal NDP leadership was contested in 1995 and the Ontario NDP leadership was contested in 1996 - Layton did not even consider participating in either of those contests

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