Former NDP MPP QUITS The Party Over Their Opposition To Road Tolls

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Mighty Middle
Former NDP MPP QUITS The Party Over Their Opposition To Road Tolls

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Mighty Middle

Former NDP MPP Paul Ferreira (York-South Weston) has announced via Twitter he has quit the NDP over their aligning with the PC Party in opposing Road Tolls. Prior to his election as an MPP he was chief of staff to Howard Hampton and special advisor to Andrea Horwarth.

He first tweeted

Will be watching tomo's #onpoli debate on Brown #toll motion closely. If #ONDP sides w/ #PCPO, I'll have to reconsider party support #topoli

After the NDP voted with the PC Party Ferreira tweeted

A very sad day. After more than 25 yrs, today I quit #ONDP. Support for Brown's #toronto #toll motion last straw. cc @AndreaHorwath #onpoli

I'm afraid party I grew up with, of big & bold ideas, has lost its way. #Reactionary & teetering on #irrelevancy right now. #ONDP #onpoli

Misfit

Good for the NDP to oppose this. And this thread reminds me of a really annoying former babbler who would post threads just like this one here. Threads that were all Toronto centric, pro Liberal and anti-NDP. I am not naming any names, but your thread topics are suspiciously familiar.

Stockholm

If the City of Toronto wants to levy road tolls - that is its choice and if Toronto voters don't like it, they can defeat John Tory and all city councillors who support it in the next election. I don't see why the Ontario government should interfere.

Personally, I'm an agnostic on road tolls as a way to raise revenue, but what I am NOT agnostic about is the the fact that cities NEEEEED much more revenue - especially for transit and other infrastructure. If the Ontario NDP wants to oppose allowing cities to level road tolls - then that's fine BUT they must put their money where their mouth is and announce how they would go about raising the same or more new revenue! The thing I find trite and irritating about Andrea Horwath is that she is always, no no no no no to every single solitary mechanism for generating revenue and then yes yes yes yes yes to increasing spending by massive amounts on everything under the sun. It insults peoples intelligence to put forth that crap.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Why does it matter if a FORMER MPP quits the party?  And a former MPP who lost most of the elections he contested at that?

robbie_dee

Stockholm wrote:
The thing I find trite and irritating about Andrea Horwath is that she is always, no no no no no to every single solitary mechanism for generating revenue and then yes yes yes yes yes to increasing spending by massive amounts on everything under the sun. It insults peoples intelligence to put forth that crap.

It worked for Rob Ford. Also I don't know if you heard but a reality television star with no political experience was recently elected President of the United States by promising to kick out ten million immigrants and build a massive wall along that country's southern border, which somebody else would pay for. Don't knock pandering, it seems to be a winning strategy.

Stockholm

Insulting peoples intelligence can work for rightwing politicians because people in the rightwing "universe" tend to be poorly educated people with very low political literacy. They don't care if the people they vote for are mindless demagogues. Voters who are left of centre/progressive tend to be much less forgiving of that

Stockholm

Mighty Middle wrote:

Should be noted that the NDPers on city council support road tolls so this is not pro Liberal and anti-NDP policy idea.

Be careful about how you generalize on that...I suspect that NDPers on council from downtown wards such as Cressy and Layton and Perks et al likely support tolls. I have not heard suburban NDP councillors like Augimeri and Peruzza weigh in. and now former ONDP candidate Neethan Shan is running in the upcoming municipal byelection to fill Raymond Cho's seat in far northeastern Scarborough...I'll be curious to see what position he takes.

Mighty Middle

Ken Burch wrote:

Why does it matter if a FORMER MPP quits the party?  And a former MPP who lost most of the elections he contested at that?

Would you say the same about Nathan Shen who has run both Municipally and Provincially and so far has batted zero? Not to mention he has left his School Trustee position, not once but twice to run for higher office? And so far has failed each and every time (notwithstanding winning School Trustee)

Stockholm wrote:

Personally, I'm an agnostic on road tolls as a way to raise revenue, but what I am NOT agnostic about is the the fact that cities NEEEEED much more revenue - especially for transit and other infrastructure. If the Ontario NDP wants to oppose allowing cities to level road tolls - then that's fine BUT they must put their money where their mouth is and announce how they would go about raising the same or more new revenue! The thing I find trite and irritating about Andrea Horwath is that she is always, no no no no no to every single solitary mechanism for generating revenue and then yes yes yes yes yes to increasing spending by massive amounts on everything under the sun. It insults peoples intelligence to put forth that crap.

I agree with Stockholm. Horwath has a history of opposing Road Tolls going all the way back to 2011. Which is fine. But then come up with an idea to generate revenue (in Ontario)

So far her only idea is increasing corportate taxes by 1% and reducing government spending (Appointment of a minister of savings and accountability)

Should be noted that the NDPers on city council support road tolls so this is not pro Liberal and anti-NDP policy idea.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Mighty Middle wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

Why does it matter if a FORMER MPP quits the party?  And a former MPP who lost most of the elections he contested at that?

Would you say the same about Nathan Shen who has run both Municipally and Provincially and so far has batted zero? Not to mention he has left his School Trustee position, not once but twice to run for higher office? And so far has failed each and every time (notwithstanding winning School Trustee)

I agree with Ken that this is a stupid non-story and yes I would say the same about Nathan what's his name whom I have never heard of either. 

robbie_dee

I respect Paul Ferreira. He put in a lot of work to rebuild the NDP in York South Weston and it's too bad he was only actually able to serve as MPP for the year or so he did. I agree with him on this issue, too, although I won't be quitting my membership over it. But who the heck is Nathan Shen?

jjuares

It is a non story. As for the issue of tolls, I am against them as I see them as a regressive tax.

Unionist

Michael Laxer weighs in:

[url=http://theleftchapter.blogspot.ca/2016/12/what-is-with-all-ontario-left-... is with all the Ontario left ranting about road tolls and Toronto 'elites'?[/url]

 

jjuares

Unionist wrote:

Michael Laxer weighs in:

[url=http://theleftchapter.blogspot.ca/2016/12/what-is-with-all-ontario-left-... is with all the Ontario left ranting about road tolls and Toronto 'elites'?[/url]

 


Good article. I may have to look at attitude towards tolls. He sees tolls not as ways to fund infrastructure but as a way of discouraging the use of cars and to even the disparity between cars and transit.

Mighty Middle

jjuares wrote:
Unionist wrote:

Michael Laxer weighs in:

[url=http://theleftchapter.blogspot.ca/2016/12/what-is-with-all-ontario-left-... is with all the Ontario left ranting about road tolls and Toronto 'elites'?[/url]

 

Good article. I may have to look at attitude towards tolls. He sees tolls not as ways to fund infrastructure but as a way of discouraging the use of cars and to even the disparity between cars and transit.

That is Paul whole point as he feels Tolls is a progressive policy that is good for the environment. Sees Andrea stance just pandering for votes on this.

As Michael Laxer in the above column writes

"Frankly, for the ONDP to join hands with Brown's Conservatives in some broad attack on tolls and to embrace a paint-by-numbers right wing anti-tax stance is typical of the party now and is grotesque."

jjuares

Mighty Middle wrote:

jjuares wrote:
Unionist wrote:

Michael Laxer weighs in:

[url=http://theleftchapter.blogspot.ca/2016/12/what-is-with-all-ontario-left-... is with all the Ontario left ranting about road tolls and Toronto 'elites'?[/url]

 

Good article. I may have to look at attitude towards tolls. He sees tolls not as ways to fund infrastructure but as a way of discouraging the use of cars and to even the disparity between cars and transit.

That is Paul whole point as he feels Tolls is a progressive policy that is good for the environment. Sees Andrea stance just pandering for votes on this.

As Michael Laxer in the above column writes

"Frankly, for the ONDP to join hands with Brown's Conservatives in some broad attack on tolls and to embrace a paint-by-numbers right wing anti-tax stance is typical of the party now and is grotesque."


In the end the NDP would be better off concentrating on Wynne's right wing privatization agenda. The secondary issue should be the lack of ethics of that government.

Mighty Middle

jjuares wrote:
In the end the NDP would be better off concentrating on Wynne's right wing privatization agenda. The secondary issue should be the lack of ethics of that government.

I couldn't agree with you more

lagatta4

I think public transport matters (and other development and environmental issues) are very important. Yes, it is important to attack the sitting government, but it is also important to make positive proposals and not just criticize. Michael Laxer's post was very good indeed. The real problem is a lack of efficient public transport, within Toronto and throughout the GTA. Idem here.

jjuares

lagatta4 wrote:

I think public transport matters (and other development and environmental issues) are very important. Yes, it is important to attack the sitting government, but it is also important to make positive proposals and not just criticize. Michael Laxer's post was very good indeed. The real problem is a lack of efficient public transport, within Toronto and throughout the GTA. Idem here.


In the article he said Toronto has 2 and half lines of LRT. That surprised me because that puts it no further ahead than Edmonton, a city of a million.

lagatta4

Yes, it seems odd. What is included in that, streetcars? GO trains?

robbie_dee

jjuares wrote:
Good article. I may have to look at attitude towards tolls. He sees tolls not as ways to fund infrastructure but as a way of discouraging the use of cars and to even the disparity between cars and transit.

I support tolling the Gardiner and DVP for two reasons: (1) I think its appropriate for the users of these particular roads to bear the costs of the substantial repairs that they require and (2) I think it puts on the table the broader issue you identify, which is discouraging cars and evening the disparity between cars and transit. RE: #1 obviously a balance needs to be struck between funding infrastructure from user fees vs. out of general revenue paid for out of (hopefully more progressive) taxation. Personally I happen to think the Gardiner and DVP present a good case for considering user fees but obviously other infrastructure projects would raise different considerations.

RE #2, again, tolling the Gardiner and DVP is a good conversation starter but it will only move the ball along a little ways. As many have pointed out, tolling those two roads will likely push a number of drivers onto other roads which is not really an improvement. We also need to start talking about [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_congestion_charge]congestion charges[/url].

Unionist

Ask not for whom the road tolls.

Ok, I'm donne.

Caissa

You seem in Ernest, Unionist.

Unionist

It's the Queensway, Caissa - no hemming!

Haw haw.

Caissa

Oh, a Moveable Feast.

Unionist

Well burrowed, road toll!

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
I think its appropriate for the users of these particular roads to bear the costs of the substantial repairs that they require

I think that's reasonable.

But then I also think it's reasonable for transit to have some kind of fare, even if it's supplemented by collective taxation, for exactly the same reason. 

Why should the daily users of transit pay no more than those who never use it?  Because "it's good for all of us"?  Well, anything that moves goods and people to where they need to be is good for all of us.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

I'd hope there would at least be a toll subsidy for the unemployed who were driving to look for work or for those just coming back into work after a period of unemployment(as well as those unable to work due to disability.

cco

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Why should the daily users of transit pay no more than those who never use it?

Why should the chronically ill pay no more for health care than those who never use it?

Ken Burch wrote:

I'd hope there would at least be a toll subsidy for the unemployed who were driving to look for work or for those just coming back into work after a period of unemployment(as well as those unable to work due to disability.

Yes, we could set up an unbelievably complicated and expensive toll rebate program, with everybody lobbying for an exemption and the existing empowered classes most likely to get one. Or we could use the existing tax infrastructure, subsidize roads (and transit) out of general revenue + gas tax, and target disadvantaged groups for aid through that system.

Mighty Middle

Ken Burch wrote:
Why does it matter if a FORMER MPP quits the party?

jjuares wrote:
It is a non story.

kropotkin1951 wrote:
I agree with Ken that this is a stupid non-story

Why an NDP veteran cut his party ties over tolls

https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2016/12/13/why-an-ndp-veteran-cu...

So much for it being a "non-story"

Ciabatta2

I think the problem isn't that the NDP is opposing road tolls, but that they're not articulating a mature reason for doing so.

 

I think there is a good reason for not tolling rolls - it's inequitable, it hurts the less fortunate the most and the reality is that many people across the economic spectrum really have few reliable and workable options for transit.

 

The City needs revenue?  Raise taxes.  That's more fair, that's more equitable.  The reality is that the tools are unlikely to take cars off the roads, and they are unlikely to fund the costs of car infrastructure.

 

But I don't hear the NDP saying that.  Let the PCs articulate the "citizens are squeezed" policy.  The NDP should be making the point about fairness.  It's like they purposely put their feet in the trap again.  They're going to get clobbered by Wynne, even if she loses (and I don't think she will.)

btg

tolls are regressive - rich guys in luxury cars gladly pay tolls without a second thought.

Ward

I believe the proposed road tolls are a natural consequence of  the Mike Harris Government's creation of the Toronto Mega-City. 

Ciabatta2

As well as a consequence of the effective promotion of "progressive vs. conservative" politics vs. traditional left-right politics.

Ward

Ciabatta2 wrote:

As well as a consequence of the effective promotion of "progressive vs. conservative" politics vs. traditional left-right politics.

Please elaborate

Ward

Ciabatta2 wrote:

As well as a consequence of the effective promotion of "progressive vs. conservative" politics vs. traditional left-right politics.

Please elaborate

mark_alfred

Article critical of road tolls:  http://torontoist.com/2016/12/why-imposing-tolls-on-the-gardiner-and-dvp...

Quote:

Road tolls are unfair. Several people have raised the good point that more wealthy citizens drive—but if we manage to tax the wealthy more than the poor with a road toll, it’s by luck or by accident, not by design. Lots of low-income people drive, too.

Correlations aside, road tolls tax usage, not wealth. If we’re taxing an essential service necessary for well-being, which everyone should be able to access regardless of wealth, and if indeed that essential service—mobility—is key to the acquisition and maintenance of wealth, then it should not be taxed based on usage.

A tax or fee on an essential service that is not based on ability to pay is regressive. Period. Mobility is essential in a city. Revenue for the operating and capital costs of transportation infrastructure should come from taxes on wealth.

 

Toronto and York Region Labour Council advocates for a commercial parking levy as a better means of raising revenue.

http://www.labourcouncil.ca/uploads/8/8/6/1/8861416/toronto_city_finance...

Quote:

Many options outlined by City Staff deserve support, but the Mayor has focused on road tolls and refuses to support one of the largest potential sources of revenue –the commercial parking levy. The excuses provided for not considering this levy are just that – excuses for not asking the wealthiest landowners in Toronto to pay their share. In fact, the Mayor lists the powerful interest groups that oppose stepping up and contributing: the Real Estate Industry Coalition, Retail Council of Canada, Building Owners + Managers, and Building Industry + Land Development. It is no surprise that the voices of the wealthiest 1% have more sway at City Hall than working people who have to drive to work every day.

Ciabatta2

Ward wrote:

Ciabatta2 wrote:

As well as a consequence of the effective promotion of "progressive vs. conservative" politics vs. traditional left-right politics.

Please elaborate

Building transit is progressive.  Doing so by selling off hydro is right wing response to the problem.

Discouraging driving is progressive.  Doing so through road tolls is very right wing response to the problem.

Progressive vs conservative is about what issues you respond to.  Right vs left is about how you respond to it.  If you can encourage voters to define their political identity based on a headline-grabbing, binary for/against representation of issues they care about, it reduces scrutiny on the policy responses.  This helps the Liberals and hurts the NDP and Conservatives because it allows Liberals to take issue based positions with minimal regard to the type of response.  (E.g. 'progressive' positions that appeal to a good chunk of the NDP's voters that think of themselves as left leaning who don't realize (or don't care) whether the response is left wing or right wing.)

I don't think this is new to this day and age but it certainly is in a peak in my opinion.

Mighty Middle

In a 32-9 vote, council endorsed John Tory’s plan for road tolls. Three NDPers on city council were among the nine that voted AGAINST the tolls.

Maria Augimeri, Anthony Perruzza, and Kristyn Wong-Tam.

mark_alfred

Mighty Middle wrote:

In a 32-9 vote, council endorsed John Tory’s plan for road tolls. Three NDPers on city council were among the nine that voted AGAINST the tolls.

Maria Augimeri, Anthony Perruzza, and Kristyn Wong-Tam.

That's a mischaracterization.  There were a whack of revenue options, tolls being only one of them, that were referred to the Budget Committee for consideration. 

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2016.EX20.2

swallow

I don't think Kristyn Wong-Tam is an NDP member. Never heard of the others, but then I don't live in the Capital Region. 

Do road tolls have one advantage over some alternatives, which is that they are not paid only by city residents - they affect people living outside the city who use city-funded infrastructure without paying for it. 

Wouldn't restoring provincial funding for transport to the level of other provinces remove the need for this "revenue tool"? Montreal and Vancouver are not in this particular crunch because the Quebec and BC governemnts fund public transit. 

[url=http://globalnews.ca/news/1670796/how-does-the-ttcs-funding-compare-to-o... does the TTC’s funding compare to other transit agencies?[/url]

mark_alfred

swallow wrote:

Wouldn't restoring provincial funding for transport to the level of other provinces remove the need for this "revenue tool"? Montreal and Vancouver are not in this particular crunch because the Quebec and BC governemnts fund public transit. 

[url=http://globalnews.ca/news/1670796/how-does-the-ttcs-funding-compare-to-o... does the TTC’s funding compare to other transit agencies?[/url]

Exactly.  That's the point Horwath made in her letter to Tory.

http://www.ontariondp.ca/ndp_leader_andrea_horwath_letter_to_mayor_tory

Mighty Middle

swallow wrote:

I don't think Kristyn Wong-Tam is an NDP member. Never heard of the others, but then I don't live in the Capital Region. 

She was a card carrying member of the NDP. However she let her membership lapse once she was elected to city council.

 

swallow wrote:

Exactly.  That's the point Horwath made in her letter to Tory.

http://www.ontariondp.ca/ndp_leader_andrea_horwath_letter_to_mayor_tory

Andrea says in the letter the Province should restore $330 million funding gap to the city of Toronto. But then she doesn't offer any plan/solution on where that $330 million would come from.

Stockholm

The Ontario Liberals squandered BILLIONS on their cancelled gas plants...no one ever asks where the money for that came from

Misfit

You know? This thread topic is supposed to be about an ex-NDP MPP quitting the party over an issue, not about THE ISSUE. If you want to discuss the issue of whether the NDP should support or vote against road tolls, then ask the moderators to change the thread topic accordingly, such as "should the Ontario NDP party oppose road tolls in Toronto". Notice the thread topic creator's fixation with who on city council is a card carrying member of the NDP and how they vote on the road toll issue. Either fix the thread title or only fixate on who is a card carrying member of the NDP on city council and how they vote on the road toll.

lombardimax@hot...

The real problem is that municipalities do not have any tools to raise revenue through progressive and class-based means. All current options on the table, including tolls, are fundamentally regressive.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

cco wrote:
Mr. Magoo wrote:

Why should the daily users of transit pay no more than those who never use it?

Why should the chronically ill pay no more for health care than those who never use it?

Ken Burch wrote:

I'd hope there would at least be a toll subsidy for the unemployed who were driving to look for work or for those just coming back into work after a period of unemployment(as well as those unable to work due to disability.

Yes, we could set up an unbelievably complicated and expensive toll rebate program, with everybody lobbying for an exemption and the existing empowered classes most likely to get one. Or we could use the existing tax infrastructure, subsidize roads (and transit) out of general revenue + gas tax, and target disadvantaged groups for aid through that system.

I should have prefaced that with "IF there have to be tolls".  Obviously, tolls are the worst possible solution.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Mighty Middle wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:
Why does it matter if a FORMER MPP quits the party?

jjuares wrote:
It is a non story.

kropotkin1951 wrote:
I agree with Ken that this is a stupid non-story

Why an NDP veteran cut his party ties over tolls

https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2016/12/13/why-an-ndp-veteran-cu...

So much for it being a "non-story"

My takeaway from that story is that this is Ferreira getting payback on Horwath for disavowing his suggestion, during the last provincial election, that an NDP government should consider tolls as a potential revenue source for the Toronto transit system.  He was "thrown under the bus", as the article put it, and he's still smarting from that.

Mighty, it looks as though you think tolls are the ONLY way to get the needed revenue.  If so, why do you believe that?  What about gettng a commitment that an ONDP government would legalize municipal wealth taxes?  If tolls had to be imposed, would you support any measures to exempt low-income and unemployed Ontarians from those tolls(in the cases where they actually owned cars, of course)?

This seems to be a pretty big thing with you.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Unionist wrote:
Well burrowed, road toll!

If Peter Mansbridge picked up this story, could we call it "The Old Man And The CBC"?

Mighty Middle

Ken Burch wrote:

Mighty, it looks as though you think tolls are the ONLY way to get the needed revenue.  If so, why do you believe that?  What about gettng a commitment that an ONDP government would legalize municipal wealth taxes?  If tolls had to be imposed, would you support any measures to exempt low-income and unemployed Ontarians from those tolls(in the cases where they actually owned cars, of course)?

This seems to be a pretty big thing with you.

I agree with Joe Cressy. The city has a revenue problem, not a spending problem.

swallow

Mighty Middle wrote:

swallow wrote:

I don't think Kristyn Wong-Tam is an NDP member. Never heard of the others, but then I don't live in the Capital Region. 

She was a card carrying member of the NDP. However she let her membership lapse once she was elected to city council.

Er, no. She "let it lapse" (ie stopped being a member) before running for Council. Source: Krsyten Wong-Tam.

Quote:

swallow wrote:

Exactly.  That's the point Horwath made in her letter to Tory.

http://www.ontariondp.ca/ndp_leader_andrea_horwath_letter_to_mayor_tory

Andrea says in the letter the Province should restore $330 million funding gap to the city of Toronto. But then she doesn't offer any plan/solution on where that $330 million would come from.

Actually, that is not a quote from me. I am not here to defend the Ontario NDP. 

Perhaps she plans to find the money by atealing from Joy Taylor's bank account and selling old Adam Giambrone workout videos. 

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