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Mighty Middle
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josh

And apparently is determined to elect the Cons.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9R8-UOkwd-Q#

SocialJustice101

Could she have endorsed the NDP and backstab all the seating Liberal MPs who hope to hang on as MPs?    Perhaps  admitting she can't win is as close as it comes.    People who weren't paying attention to the polls might have still thought the Liberals had a chance.

Mighty Middle

Kathleen Wynne got emotional at her presser, fighting back tears. But that doesn't seem to matter to Andrea Horwath who is kicking Wynne when she is down, blasting Wynne for conceding the election

Kathleen Wynne has abandoned the fight against Doug Ford's cuts. And her request today for a minority government is a demand that she be allowed to continue to hold the power at Queen’s Park – something voters have already rejected.

But she is playing a dangerous game. Liberal votes won’t result in a minority – they’ll result in a Doug Ford majority. And we can’t afford Ford.

Now, a vote for Kathleen Wynne and a vote for Doug Ford mean the same thing. Let’s not go from bad to worse. It’s time for a change for the better.

https://twitter.com/AndreaHorwath/status/1002955701587570689

SocialJustice101

But Andrea Horwarth is absolutely correct in her statement.   Voting Liberal will not ensure a minority government.   It's much more likely to ensure a Ford majority.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Wynne is being vindictive because the ONDP is making the close race of it against Ford that the OLP never had any possibility of making this year.  There would never have been any scenario in which the OLP would have ended up ahead in popular support of the PC's with five days to go in the race.

Mighty Middle

SocialJustice101 wrote:

But Andrea Horwarth is absolutely correct in her statement.   Voting Liberal will not ensure a minority government.   It's much more likely to ensure a Ford majority.

So should Wynne just say "Everyone vote NDP" and throw all of her Liberal candidates under the bus?

SocialJustice101

If she did, all Liberal MPs and candidates would call for her head, but then again, she's done either way.  

Mighty Middle

SocialJustice101 wrote:

If she did, all Liberal MPs and candidate would call for her head, but then again, she's done either way.  

Then what should she have said?

SocialJustice101

I guess she's doing all she can do, but so is Andrea Horwath with her statement.

Mighty Middle

SocialJustice101 wrote:

I guess she's doing all she can do, but so is Andrea Horwath with her statement.

I'm not sure because right now Wynne is getting a ton of sympathy on social media, and a statement like that from Horwath doesn't seem very gracious. It would of been better if Andrea took the high road, thank Wynne for her service, but remind people this is an election and say NDP is the only party to stop Ford. Her statement just makes her look petty. Especially since Wynne was on the verge of tears, her voice cracking, at this morning presser.

SocialJustice101

The latest Liberal ad says the NDP would "raise taxes" and "kill jobs" (along with warnings about Ford).     I don't see why Horwath should be handling Wynne with kid's gloves.

NDPP

NDP-Liberal Coalition is probably the best that can be hoped for.

SocialJustice101

But it's not really in the cards.   I hope the Liberals hold at least 1 seat, so that they can participate the next election's leader's debate.

Mighty Middle

SocialJustice101 wrote:

The latest Liberal ad says the NDP would "raise taxes" and "kill jobs" (along with warnings about Ford).     I don't see why Horwath should be handling Wynne with kid's gloves.

Kicking Kathleen Wynne when she is down only ailenates Liberals you need to get on your side.

josh

Mighty Middle wrote:

SocialJustice101 wrote:

But Andrea Horwarth is absolutely correct in her statement.   Voting Liberal will not ensure a minority government.   It's much more likely to ensure a Ford majority.

So should Wynne just say "Everyone vote NDP" and throw all of her Liberal candidates under the bus?

No, but she didn’t have to accuse the NDP of “job killing taxes”

josh

SocialJustice101 wrote:

The latest Liberal ad says the NDP would "raise taxes" and "kill jobs" (along with warnings about Ford).     I don't see why Horwath should be handling Wynne with kid's gloves.

Exactly.  

josh

Mighty Middle wrote:

SocialJustice101 wrote:

If she did, all Liberal MPs and candidate would call for her head, but then again, she's done either way.  

Then what should she have said?

Vote Liberal, without attacking the NDP.

Mighty Middle

josh wrote:

SocialJustice101 wrote:

The latest Liberal ad says the NDP would "raise taxes" and "kill jobs" (along with warnings about Ford).     I don't see why Horwath should be handling Wynne with kid's gloves.

Exactly.  

Horwath needed to use kid gloves because she just ailenated those Liberal voters by atacking Wynne when she was crying today.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Mighty Middle wrote:

josh wrote:

SocialJustice101 wrote:

The latest Liberal ad says the NDP would "raise taxes" and "kill jobs" (along with warnings about Ford).     I don't see why Horwath should be handling Wynne with kid's gloves.

Exactly.  

Horwath needed to use kid gloves because she just ailenated those Liberal voters by atacking Wynne when she was crying today.

the kid gloves should go both ways.  There's no excuse for Wynne to be opposing anyone but Ford between now and election day.  

Mighty Middle

Ken Burch wrote:

the kid gloves should go both ways.  There's no excuse for Wynne to be opposing anyone but Ford between now and election day.  

So what should have Wynne said today

SocialJustice101

If Wynne truly cares about the progressive cause, she should keep a low profile and stop spending money on smearing the NDP.

Mighty Middle

SocialJustice101 wrote:

If Wynne truly cares about the progressive cause, she should keep a low profile and stop spending money on smearing the NDP.

And if Horwath truly cares abourt reaching out to Liberals voters she shouldn't have attacked Wynne and taken the high road.

WWWTT

Sounds like Wynne is trying to say she’s not a materialistic baby boomer! Classic liberal BS at its finest!

She would have had better luck if she said it in Mandarin dialect Chinese while wearing traditional Indian wedding clothes! 

If she really cared about the citizens of Ontario, she would have endorsed Horwath and resigned immediately!

But instead she’s back to playing her stupid mind games!

SocialJustice101

I wouldn't expect Wynne to endorse the NDP, but she should have continued to attack Ford, instead of portraying the NDP and PCs as 2 equivalent extremes.

josh

SocialJustice101 wrote:

I wouldn't expect Wynne to endorse the NDP, but she should have continued to attack Ford, instead of portraying the NDP and PC and 2 equivalent extremes.

Yes.  The commercial treats them as equally bad.

cco

SocialJustice101 wrote:

But it's not really in the cards.   I hope the Liberals hold at least 1 seat, so that they can participate the next election's leader's debate.

The Liberals are effectively grandfathered into all leadership debates. They won't be excluded in 2022, even if they win zero seats.

Mighty Middle

I had said from the start of the this campaign that it was a mistake for Kathleen Wynne to contest this election. I said she should have conceded on Day One and withdraw all the candidates. Because now they will all be wiped out, and some will probably not get their deposit back.

Now it will worse for Wynne being humilated (and the Liberal Party wiped out), instead of taking the high road and bowing out gracefully, along with all her candidates. And have all of the progressive vote go to Andrea Horwath.

You need to know when it is time to leave the festivities, instead of being asked to leave. And when I said Wynne should have conceded on Day One and withdraw every single Liberal candidate, two posters accused me of Trolling!

Misfit Misfit's picture

I don't know if you noticed but Kathleen Wynne  referred to the other two parties as "Doug Ford and the NDP."

She couldn't refer to Andrea Horwath by her name. You either say Doug Ford and Andrea Horwath or The Progressive Conservatives  and the NDP. 

 

SocialJustice101

Withdrawing all OLP candidates would not be allowed by the party, and rightfully so.   Wynne should have resigned along with Patrick Brown, and let the Liberals find a new charismatic and more relatable leader, who doesn't have the baggage of privatizing Hydro One, the retirement plan waste, etc.

SocialJustice101

Misfit wrote:

I don't know if you noticed but Kathleen Wynne  referred to the other two parties as "Doug Ford and the NDP."

She couldn't refer to Andrea Horwath by her name. You either say Doug Ford and Andrea Horwath or The Progressive Conservatives  and the NDP. 

 

Ford is less popular than the PCs.   Horwath is more popular than the NDP.   That's marketing 101.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
And when I said Wynne should have conceded on Day One and withdraw every single Liberal candidate, two posters accused me of Trolling!

Make it three then.

No party leader is ever going to withdraw all of their party's candidates.  That's not how the Westminster system works.

It's a bit like sports.  Teams are allowed to lose, even by a large margin.  But they're expected to make a good-faith attempt to win, even if that seems unlikely to them. 

SocialJustice101

If 18% in the polls is a valid reason to resign and withdraw all candidates, the NDP would not exist.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Also, every party other than the Conservatives, the Liberals and the NDP.

Ciabatta2

josh wrote:

SocialJustice101 wrote:

I wouldn't expect Wynne to endorse the NDP, but she should have continued to attack Ford, instead of portraying the NDP and PC and 2 equivalent extremes.

Yes.  The commercial treats them as equally bad.

Wynne has not coneded the election.

She is still running, her candidates are still running, and she is actively imploring people to vote for them.

This is a ruse designed win sympathy votes.

This is the ultimate in arrogance and conceit - the complete downfall of one of Canada's most promising politicians.  What a fraud.

Mighty Middle

SocialJustice101 wrote:

Withdrawing all OLP candidates would not be allowed by the party, and rightfully so.  

You've read the Liberal party constitution?

SocialJustice101 wrote:

If 18% in the polls is a valid reason to resign and withdraw all candidates, the NDP would not exist.

Not if the poll tracker shows that the party will win ZERO seats,

Mr. Magoo wrote:

It's a bit like sports.  Teams are allowed to lose, even by a large margin.  But they're expected to make a good-faith attempt to win, even if that seems unlikely to them.

Athletes have routinely withdrawn from competitions (even the Olympics) all the time. If there are qualifying rounds, and the athlete performed so disastrously and a poor showing will affect their world ranking, they withdraw from the second round of the competition, because there is no point, Happens all the time.

You should be agreeing with me that the only way for the progressive vote go 100% directly to Horwath, would be for the Liberals to be off the ballot.

SocialJustice101

Sure, but that's too much of a "magic wand" scenario.   The Liberals still want to preserve the party for the next election, and that requires winning some seats.

Mighty Middle

SocialJustice101 wrote:

Sure, but that's too much of a "magic wand" scenario.   The Liberals still want to preserve the party for the next election, and that requires winning some seats.

They are on track to winning ZERO seats.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Athletes have routinely withdrawn from competitions (even the Olympics) all the time. If there are qualifying rounds, and the athlete performed so disastrously and a poor showing will affect their world ranking, they withdraw from the second round of the competition, because there is no point, Happens all the time.

Does this happen with team sports?  Or just individuals?

Quote:
You should be agreeing with me that the only way for the progressive vote go 100% directly to Horwath, would be for the Liberals to be off the ballot.

If it helps, I do agree with that.  That's just basic logic.

But I don't agree that Wynne has any obligation to (essentially) sell all the other Liberals out.  It's her job to support them, not to try to foil another candidate.

SocialJustice101

Mighty Middle wrote:

SocialJustice101 wrote:

Sure, but that's too much of a "magic wand" scenario.   The Liberals still want to preserve the party for the next election, and that requires winning some seats.

They are on track to winning ZERO seats.

At this point yes, but that was not the case before certain pollsters helped to create the Orange Wave 2.0 (TM).    Let's hope the result of this wave will be different.

SocialJustice101

I think Wynne's strategy may backfire with voters who don't pay attention to polls or don't believe the polls.   Now they have a concession from the horse's mouth, and can vote to stop Ford.

WWWTT

Just re read Wynne speech again, everyone is covering it. Looks like she has no morals. She’s trying to come off like a homeless person begging for spare change. Like she’s some kind of victim. Maybe she should’ve wore some old dirty torn up clothes and gone a month without bathing or any hygiene 

Oh poor Wynne you’re probably going to curl up into a ball tonight in bed and cry yourself to sleep. It ok baby it’s ok. At least you can retire with a sweet fat pension courtesy of the Ontario taxpayers and all those possessions and wealth you’ve hoarded away. I’m sure your corporate sugar daddies won’t forget about you when looking for new ceo’s And board members with tempting signing offers and bonuses. 

It must be a real hard life being a corporate puppet while trying to juggle the pro labour socialist image on the campaign trail. 

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

Just re read Wynne speech again, everyone is covering it. Looks like she has no morals. She’s trying to come off like a homeless person begging for spare change. Like she’s some kind of victim. Maybe she should’ve wore some old dirty torn up clothes and gone a month without bathing or any hygiene 

Oh poor Wynne you’re probably going to curl up into a ball tonight in bed and cry yourself to sleep. It ok baby it’s ok. At least you can retire with a sweet fat pension courtesy of the Ontario taxpayers and all those possessions and wealth you’ve hoarded away. I’m sure your corporate sugar daddies won’t forget about you when looking for new ceo’s And board members with tempting signing offers and bonuses. 

It must be a real hard life being a corporate puppet while trying to juggle the pro labour socialist image on the campaign trail. 

Well she got a reaction from the resident babble Liberal troll so....

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

SocialJustice101 wrote:

Mighty Middle wrote:

SocialJustice101 wrote:

Sure, but that's too much of a "magic wand" scenario.   The Liberals still want to preserve the party for the next election, and that requires winning some seats.

They are on track to winning ZERO seats.

At this point yes, but that was not the case before certain pollsters helped to create the Orange Wave 2.0 (TM).    Let's hope the result of this wave will be different.

The pollsters didn't cause EITHER Orange Wave.  The swing in 2011 was a legitimate expression of voter feeling and so is this.  Why are you so invested in the idea that it's never possible for the NDP to persuade the electorate, on the merits of its program or ideas, that it's a better choice than the Liberals?

Face reality-Harper would have won just as large a majority if the polls in the last two weeks had shown the Liberals solidly ahead of the NDP.  There was no significant group of voters anywhere in 2011 who voted Conservative but would have voted Liberal if it was just another Conservative-Liberal race.  The Liberals finished third that year because they had nothing to offer in terms of policy and because their leader was never seen as a credible alternative to Harper.

It's not possible to cause a party's support to crater by manipulating opinion polls.  Never has been.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Mighty Middle wrote:

SocialJustice101 wrote:

Withdrawing all OLP candidates would not be allowed by the party, and rightfully so.  

You've read the Liberal party constitution?

SocialJustice101 wrote:

If 18% in the polls is a valid reason to resign and withdraw all candidates, the NDP would not exist.

Not if the poll tracker shows that the party will win ZERO seats,

Mr. Magoo wrote:

It's a bit like sports.  Teams are allowed to lose, even by a large margin.  But they're expected to make a good-faith attempt to win, even if that seems unlikely to them.

Athletes have routinely withdrawn from competitions (even the Olympics) all the time. If there are qualifying rounds, and the athlete performed so disastrously and a poor showing will affect their world ranking, they withdraw from the second round of the competition, because there is no point, Happens all the time.

You should be agreeing with me that the only way for the progressive vote go 100% directly to Horwath, would be for the Liberals to be off the ballot.

Wynne never had the power to unilaterally pull her party off the ballot in all ridings.  If she had tried(and remember, at the start of the campaign the OLP was still in second and there was no way to anticipate that there would be the dramatic shifts in voter loyalty that ended up occurring), she would have been removed from her position by the party executive and replaced by someone who would fulfil the most basic obligation any party leader has: to try and lead her party to the best possible electoral showing it could make under the circumstances. 

brookmere

In Ontario, once the Certificate of Nomination is issued, the candidate must personally apply to withdraw. The party leader cannot do it.

Mighty Middle

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Well she got a reaction from the resident babble Liberal troll so....

and this response show how much power I have over Sean in Ottawa

Mighty Middle

brookmere wrote:

In Ontario, once the Certificate of Nomination is issued, the candidate must personally apply to withdraw. The party leader cannot do it.

So how did Doug Ford expel his candidates?

Pondering

Wynne is not getting "kicked when she is down".  She's  crying  because she won't be Queen anymore not because she has no where to live or a place to live but no money to see a dentist. It's a luxury that she can cry over something  she was bound to have to leave eventually. Premier has never been a lifetime job. She is crying because she ran a terrible campaign. She is crying for herself not the people of Ontario.

Mighty Middle

Pondering wrote:

Wynne is not getting "kicked when she is down".  She's  crying  because she won't be Queen anymore not because she has no where to live or a place to live but no money to see a dentist. It's a luxury that she can cry over something  she was bound to have to leave eventually. Premier has never been a lifetime job. She is crying because she ran a terrible campaign. She is crying for herself not the people of Ontario.

Did you feel the same cynicism when Hillary Clinton cried? on the campaign trail.

Ciabatta2

Yes, it's exactly the same.  Wynne isn't crying for us, she is crying for her.  Because she lost.

Wynne's policy, proposals, positions and communications are about her and the Liberals getting elected.  Nothing more.

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