No support for $14 Minimum Wage, resigning the NDP

40 posts / 0 new
Last post
shartal@rogers.com
No support for $14 Minimum Wage, resigning the NDP

I am appalled by the NDP's refusal to support the demand for a $14 minimum wage. I have donate money to the NDP by deduction for at least a decade. I cancelled this donation and am redirecting the money to OCAP and sending a lump sum donation to the Fair Wage coalition

Issues Pages: 
Gonzaga

This could be clearer. Howbout "NDP won't support $14 minimum wage? I quit," or at least "resigning from the NDP." I'm guessing this is in Ontario too, right? Anyway, the should support the $14 minimum wage. Absolutely.

mark_alfred

I also do sustaining memberships, that being $20 per month for each of these three:  the federal NDP, the provincial NDP (Ont), and for OCAP.  All three of these organizations have at times disappointed me, but I still stay loyal, since for the most part I feel they're doing good work.

shartal@rogers.com

You are right. The Ontario Leader explicitly rejected the $14 minimum demand that is being raised by a broadly endorsed coalition.

Unionist

Thanks for sharing that, shartal.

 

shartal@rogers.com

There is a difference between disappoint as in do something stupid, do not do enough etc and this action. This is the betrayal of a principal issue. This is siding with the exploiters against the exploited.

Brachina

 The NDP plans on increasing minium wage to 12 dollars which is a major increase for low min wage workers. The NDP also wants to save people money on there hydro as well which will help low income people. And we don't know what else the ONDP plans for helping low income people.

 

 I too want a 14 dollar an hour wage increase, but saying I quit and withdrawing donations is not productive. Let me offer some alternative ideas.

 

 A petition in favour of a 14$ wage with enough signatures it will get Adreas attention.

 

 What might work as well or better or inconjuction is a province wide poll like the Broadbent Institute put out on raising income taxes on the rich, onky this time on raising the mininium wage to 14$ hour. I'm convinced that poll on income taxes is what showed the NDP that they could do it without a backlash, a fear I honestly feel that has been holding the NDP back from raising income taxes for a long time.

 Lets fight for minium wage without throwing away the benifits of an NDP government. We need that because the Liberal and Tories will not support one.

 Also note that some MPPs have shown support for a 14 dollar miniulnium wage without Andrea Horwath yanking on the leash so it shows she hasn't ruled it out entirely.

 We also don't know what other income supports she may have planned.

Aristotleded24

Even setting aside the issue of minimum wage itself, whomever was advising the Ontario NDP made a huge miscalculation. For months, the Liberals were on the ropes due to scandals and losing seats in by-elections, the PCs were too scary to touch with a 10 foot pole, so that left Horwath in a position to basically dictate government policy. By saying nothing on the minimum wage, Horwath has effectively allowed Wynne to out-manouver her and has exposed cracks in her own coalition. As inadequate as the raise proposed by Wynne is, she has political cover to say she has taken leadership on this issue, and that her position is closer to the "natural NDP constituency" than the NDP party is.

onlinediscountanvils

Brachina wrote:
A petition in favour of a 14$ wage with enough signatures it will get Adreas attention.

This is downright insulting. Horwath knows full well about the year-long campaign to raise the minimum wage above the poverty line. Never mind the fact that petitions have already been a part of this campaign since last year. To suggest that more time and energy should be spent on making her aware of what she already knows is both diversionary and repugnant. People living in poverty and their allies in the community have been doing their part. It's the ONDP that hasn't been doing it's part.

Brachina wrote:
Lets fight for minium wage without throwing away the benifits of an NDP government. We need that because the Liberal and Tories will not support one.

Why would we think the NDP will support anything other than what they've already stated; a gradual increase to $12/hour by June of 2016... a wage that will still be below the poverty line?

The poor of this province don't owe the NDP anything. You're going to have to do better than 'trust us. you don't know what we might have planned'.

Slumberjack

shartal@rogers.com wrote:
I have donate money to the NDP by deduction for at least a decade. I cancelled this donation and am redirecting the money to OCAP and sending a lump sum donation to the Fair Wage coalition

Caissa

thread drift/The provincial NDP has been hounding me for a donation for the upcoming provincial election (NB). Two of the calls that I let go to voicemail came within an hour of each other after receiving another 24 hours earlier. It takes a lot of nose holding to support a Blairite party one which suggested a students' bill of rights in the event of university strikes and wants to turn back the clock on education in the province by retaining more children ( the euphesim for flunking) without adequate steps to address the real issue, poverty./end of rant.

Skinny Dipper

If Andrea Horwath had state that she wanted to seek a minimum wage that equals the living wage at the end of an NDP term, I think she would be getting more support from progressive NDP supporters.

We should know that the Liberals will capitalize on the potential division within the Ontario NDP on Andrea Horwath's strategy of moving to the right of the Liberals.  It's likely that Kathleen Wynne will call an election this spring before the NDP can help defeat the government in the legislature.

If Ms. Horwath wishes to run on a campaign of boutique issues such as lower auto insurance rates and supporting some accountability office, I think the party will perform poorly in the next election.  If she can present a grand vision for an NDP Ontario that encompasses social democratic values that lower and middle income people can support, the Ontario NDP can do better.

mark_alfred

Aristotleded24 wrote:

As inadequate as the raise proposed by Wynne is, she has political cover to say she has taken leadership on this issue, and that her position is closer to the "natural NDP constituency" than the NDP party is.

I'm not sure how Wynne's position is closer to the "natural NDP constituency" than is Horwath's position.  Feel free to explain your position on this.

Wynne proposes raising it by the Consumer Price Index (retroactive to the last raise) and then continuing to tie future raises to the CPI.  Horwath proposes the same except she also proposes raising it by more than twice the CPI for the next two years and then continuing to keep raises in line with the CPI.  The CPI is expected to be 2% in the next two years, so in June 2016 under the Liberals the minimum wage would be $11.44, whereas under the NDP in June 2016 it would be $12.00.  The fact that the NDP will go to almost twice the CPI for a minimum wage raise for two years straight puts them closer to the natural NDP constituency than the Liberals.

Under the Liberals:

June 2014 = $11.00 --> a raise of 7.3% (Culmulative CPI since 2010)

June 2015 = $11.22 --> a raise of 2.0% (Estimated CPI)

June 2016 = $11.44 --> a raise of 2.0% (Estimated CPI)

Under the NDP:

June 2014 = $11.00 --> a raise of 7.3% (Culmulative CPI since 2010)

June 2015 = $11.50 --> a raise of 4.5% (from NDP proposal)

June 2016 = $12.00 --> a raise of 4.3% (from NDP proposal)

 

The NDP plan is far superior to the Liberal plan (and both are far superior to the Conservatives' lack of a plan).  Again, for two years the NDP plan goes up at over twice the expected CPI.

Coincendentially, an immediate raise to $14 would be a 36% raise.  Some may feel that would be an easy sell to the electorate at large.  I myself am not so confident.

Brachina

mark_alfred wrote:

Aristotleded24 wrote:

As inadequate as the raise proposed by Wynne is, she has political cover to say she has taken leadership on this issue, and that her position is closer to the "natural NDP constituency" than the NDP party is.

I'm not sure how Wynne's position is closer to the "natural NDP constituency" than is Horwath's position.  Feel free to explain your position on this.

Wynne proposes raising it by the Consumer Price Index (retroactive to the last raise) and then continuing to tie future raises to the CPI.  Horwath proposes the same except she also proposes raising it by more than twice the CPI for the next two years and then continuing to keep raises in line with the CPI.  The CPI is expected to be 2% in the next two years, so in June 2016 under the Liberals the minimum wage would be $11.44, whereas under the NDP in June 2016 it would be $12.00.  The fact that the NDP will go to almost twice the CPI for a minimum wage raise for two years straight puts them closer to the natural NDP constituency than the Liberals.

Under the Liberals:

June 2014 = $11.00 --> a raise of 7.3% (Culmulative CPI since 2010)

June 2015 = $11.22 --> a raise of 2.0% (Estimated CPI)

June 2016 = $11.44 --> a raise of 2.0% (Estimated CPI)

Under the NDP:

June 2014 = $11.00 --> a raise of 7.3% (Culmulative CPI since 2010)

June 2015 = $11.50 --> a raise of 4.5% (from NDP proposal)

June 2016 = $12.00 --> a raise of 4.3% (from NDP proposal)

 

The NDP plan is far superior to the Liberal plan (and both are far superior to the Conservatives' lack of a plan).  Again, for two years the NDP plan goes up at over twice the expected CPI.

Coincendentially, an immediate raise to $14 would be a 36% raise.  Some may feel that would be an easy sell to the electorate at large.  I myself am not so confident.

 Its easy to demand 14$ an hour immediately when your not the one who has to sell the public on it and get elected to impliment it. Trying force the NDP to take a position could cost it the next election will end up costing the very people they're trying to help. Perhaps asking for something more realistic, say a 14$ wage by 2018 would be sensible.

 

Aristotleded24

Mark and Brachina, you have both done a better job defending and articulating the NDP's position on minimum wage than Horwath has. Sure, pointing out that the NDP proposal is better is one thing (people may feel free to agree or disagree) but why the silence? The silence implies that she has nothing on the issue, which is not the case. Communication is important.

shartal@rogers.com

Further, given the balance of power, the NDP plan is not going to get adopted. I question if $14 is a living wage. But less is not. A one bedroom is commonly $800/$900 plus metro pass $130+ without food or anything else you start at a basic need of about $1000. At $12 an hour that 83+ hours without taxes. The NDP's proposal leaves single working people well below the poverty line, let alone someone with children. It is simply not even close to acceptable. In Toronto the average person working minimum wage is a 36 year old woman, not a 16 year old living at home......

janfromthebruce

I liked the explanation. So moving beyond & outside Toronto how does that 14 dollar minimum wage play out? Just asking b/c we need to.

shartal@rogers.com

Rents are a little lower but transportation is more complicated. In many areas you need a car. Even cheap cars are more expensive than a bus pass. Further because close to 50% of all jobs are contract/part time most people work 2 or 3 jobs. This increases the transportation costs. Food costs also vary and tend to increase the further north you go. Heating costs also go up.

Pogo Pogo's picture

That is why the question needs to move from a minimum wage to a living wage.  The only option isn't just raising the minimum wage (albeit it is obviously the most important part).  We need to see that all the other issues are contributing factors.  Improving transit, housing, daycare and pension systems will reduce the calculation of what a living wage needs to be.

janfromthebruce

with Pogo here.

Brachina

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Mark and Brachina, you have both done a better job defending and articulating the NDP's position on minimum wage than Horwath has. Sure, pointing out that the NDP proposal is better is one thing (people may feel free to agree or disagree) but why the silence? The silence implies that she has nothing on the issue, which is not the case. Communication is important.

 

 

 Adrea likes to play her cards close to her chest and keep the Liberals wondering. The next election will have a full platform with mlre details of whay Andrea has planned.

Bacchus

And meantime she bleeds voters and support who will call her election platform a Sheila Copps position

 

You know, "everyone lies to get elected"

Skinny Dipper

Pogo wrote:

That is why the question needs to move from a minimum wage to a living wage.  The only option isn't just raising the minimum wage (albeit it is obviously the most important part).  We need to see that all the other issues are contributing factors.  Improving transit, housing, daycare and pension systems will reduce the calculation of what a living wage needs to be.

Pogo, I think you make a good point that other factors can affect what the living wage needs to be.  For example, I can think reducing or eliminating provincial income tax and the health premium on those making less than the living wage.  Those in the fourth and fifth quintiles can have their marginal income tax rate increased in order to compensate for the loss of income tax from low income earners.  Those in the fourth quintile may end up paying about the same amount of income tax while those in the fifth quintile may pay slightly more.

Unionist

Skinny Dipper wrote:
For example, I can think reducing or eliminating provincial income tax and the health premium on those making less than the living wage.  Those in the fourth and fifth quintiles can have their marginal income tax rate increased in order to compensate for the loss of income tax from low income earners.  Those in the fourth quintile may end up paying about the same amount of income tax while those in the fifth quintile may pay slightly more.

So instead of asking Macdonald's and Walmart to pay $14 an hour, the difference should be paid by government?

In 2012, 45% of minimum wage earners in Canada worked for companies with more than 500 employees. Explain to me exactly why you and I should help them pay their workers a living wage?

 

ygtbk

Unionist wrote:

Explain to me exactly why you and I should help them pay their workers a living wage?

Most unexpectedly, your inner libertarian shines through!

Also, when the government speaks, "asks" is normally a euphemism for "orders". But you probably knew that.

Caissa

I think Unionist's point is that these capitalist institutions should be paying a living wage out of their bloated profits.

shartal@rogers.com

I oppose government subsidies, which come mostly from income taxes on workers, of private companies. In essence it is other workers earnings being taken the state to subsidize walmart and McDonald's.

ygtbk

Caissa wrote:

I think Unionist's point is that these capitalist institutions should be paying a living wage out of their bloated profits.

I think you may be correct.

Skinny Dipper

Unionist, my point is that the minimum living wage is a variable which depends on other variables in the economy.  We could raise corporate taxes.  However, we cannot raise to a point where our corporate taxes are way higher than our neighbouring American states or else we will start losing tax revenue (Lorenz curve).  What the magic corporate tax rate should be, our government economists need to figure out that.  We could raise or lower sales tax rates.  We could have higher or lower gas taxes.  The point is that ever tax and revenue collection system will affect what the living wage should be.  Just raising the minimum wage to the living wage will not solve the poverty wage issue as the markets will realize that lower income people will have more money and they will start charging more for selected items which will then change what the living wage should be.

In France where there is a higher minimum wage, there are fewer fast food restaurants and more sit down restaurants.  Both charge more for their food than we do in Canada.  I stress again that the living wage is a variable that changes depending on what government tax and other revenue policies there are.

Pogo Pogo's picture

Corporate taxes also pay for social institutions.  The point is that minimum wage is important but many of the issues that are captured in the calculation of a minimum wage can be improved also.  Moreover in looking at the overall costs central planned items may be the most effective.  Lets take a look at a couple of examples:

Providing a proper pension is an important part of the living wage calculation.  We can improve the Canada Pension Plan which takes its contributions from both employers and employees and this will reduce the impact on the calculation.

Providing affordable, accessible and efficient public transit is another step.  (It also may take people to places they don't work).  I know in Richmond that public transit issues are a serious barrier to people choosing to work here.  Indeed transit and housing were listed as reasons why Microsoft moved their business out of Richmond after only a couple of years.  Many people choose to keep a car because transit is so difficult to use.  Spending money on improving transit will again have a big impact on the calculation.

This is not to say that the minimum wage does not need to go up.  It does.  I believe that the Greater Vancouver Calculation of a living wage was around $18 per hour.  Raising the minimum wage to $14 per hour would be a great step in closing the gap, it just doesn't have to be the only step.

shartal@rogers.com

Today I received confirmation, OCAP in, NDP ended

shartal@rogers.com

Today I received confirmation, OCAP in, NDP ended

NDPP

You can say that again...It should be obvious to all by now where the NDP is headed. Current conditions for poor people are barbaric and getting worse. These politicians are problems not solutions. Their awful abandonment and treachery must be answered with more sticks, less carrots.

Unionist

Caissa wrote:

I think Unionist's point is that these capitalist institutions should be paying a living wage out of their bloated profits.

Very astute as always - thanks, Caissa.

shartal wrote:
I oppose government subsidies, which come mostly from income taxes on workers, of private companies. In essence it is other workers earnings being taken the state to subsidize walmart and McDonald's.

Exactly. We should of course press government (i.e. the society) to provide ever-increasing necessary social goods and services for free or at affordable cost. But the notion that WE should pay for an increased minimum wage by subsidizing exploiters of labour could only spring from the feverish brain of a party which is desperate to maintain its progressive sheen and desperate to look good for Bay Street, and Bay Street is winning.

These babble pages were once full of discussion on this and related issues, with the self-styled progressive economist Stephen Gordon assuming the role of mocking the fight for higher minimum wage. He couldn't get his head around the difference between providing the necessities of life for all members of a society vs. drawing a decent line in the sand below which exploitation of labour and competition for work will not drag us down. I'll find those threads. They were fun. He doesn't post here any more. I guess he deemed us too dimwitted to agree with him.

ETA: Whoops, I see that Skinny Dipper just did what I warned against. I'll have to revive those threads now for sure. Let me just say this for now, Skinny: $14/hour is bullshit poverty pennies. It does NOT allow anyone to live in our society. All workers should be unionized and should fight for exactly how much money they want. Some businesses will go broke and people will lose their jobs. Some fast food joints will flee screaming and nice tables and tablecloths will take their place, with attendant price increases. The solution to poverty is NOT a higher minimum wage - for one thing, not everyone works. Minimum wage and providing the necessities of life are two different struggles. Both are worthy, and both need to be won. Any party that picks one to the exclusion of the other can go dine with the fucking bankers. They have no place in our future.

 

Unionist

shartal@rogers.com wrote:
Today I received confirmation, OCAP in, NDP ended

Thanks for being there, for people who need support in their struggle.

CanadaOrangeCat

We still have to cut the working week with no increase in pay. Until we move on that, it is going to get worse.

Unionist

CanadaOrangeCat wrote:

We still have to cut the working week with no increase in pay. Until we move on that, it is going to get worse.

I agree!! (as long as you agree to change "increase" to "decrease" above lol).

 

infracaninophile infracaninophile's picture

Skinny Dipper wrote:
 We could raise corporate taxes.  However, we cannot raise to a point where our corporate taxes are way higher than our neighbouring American states or else we will start losing tax revenue (Lorenz curve).  

We are nowhere close to that happening.

David Lewis, come back! We need someone to excoriate the corporate welfare bums.

 

This morning's feature on CBC Sunday Edition was enlightening.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/corporate-tax-avoidance-scheme-hurting-canada-expert-says-1.2572712

Worth a listen.

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

I've also let my ONDP membership lapse over the minimum wage issue.    Besides, the municipal election is going to end up taking up most of my political donations this year.     Unlike Horwath, Olivia Chow at least has a public transit plan.

OnTheLeft OnTheLeft's picture

The ONDP's policy is insulting.