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According to the Spectator article that NDPP posted above, the vote was 218-208 to defer consideration of a resolution "supporting Horwath and her demands in talks with the McGuinty government."
The paper says the resolution will come back again on Sunday morning for a vote.
In the same Spectator article we read:
Just as I said when the budget first came out, there are thousands of public service workers out there who would be willing to step up and contribute time and money to support an NDP election campaign if the party stuck up for them publicly and in its negotiations with McGuilty.
But Horwath is predictably committed to "making the minority government work", putting her in the same boat as McGuilty.
As for a wage freeze, I have a hard time thinking that an NDP government wouldn't be pushing a wage freeze under the present circumstances, especially if the alternative to restrain provincial spending is layoffs. Getting a small increase to social assistance rates is doable since public opinion is strongly in favour. Getting public executive salaries reduced is the same. Making the wage freeze go away? Not very popular and really makes a big dent in the budget plan since any increase happens across 900,000 salaries. It's the least likely thing to get so there isn't much sense in pushing it.
As well as environmentalists pissed about the HST off home heating pledge.
And the unions are even more pissed. An establishment slate was run and now the OFL has no representation on exec for the first time in the history of the party. Even sitting MPPs were used to fill positions.
That's an amazing conclusion since, as I understand it, voting for exec positions continues this morning. Great powers you must have.
And if they call themselves a social democrat and environmentalists they are niether if they oppose the HST off of home heating. They are in fact about as superficial as the people who say IWTs are a-okay because the government used the term green energy.
And that was aweful. When I saw an MPPs name, I wondered.... Now I get it and it is just so wrong.
I oppose it on its own. If it's not paired with a tax exemption for measures to improve home energy efficiency - it gets tricky to define what should be included - it creates an incentive to go on wasting energy. Since the main concern is the impact on low-income people, that's who should receive a tax credit. As for wind energy we're kind of going to need that (and solar too!) on an industrial scale if it's going to displace carbon-emitting coal and gas generation, nevermind what happens if electric vehicles become popular. The anti-wind people really do come across as rich people with country houses who are outraged that their view's been spoiled by their neighbour's windmills (nobody's forcing people to put them on their land). I don't suppose they want a conventional generating station or a nuclear station in their area either.
And here is why the NDP will never get enough seats to win government. This snotty, urban, thick as fuck ignorance of rural people and rural Ontario is at the core of a lot of NDP problems. The NDP keeps putting up these great rural candidates and then cutting them off at the knees. If you can't win at least a few seats in rural Ontario you will never win a majority government, especially if you are trying to knock off incumbents to get to government.
ETA And if this profound ignorance of who opposes mega-scale industrial wind projects is typical of the Toronto-centred NDP people no wonder their outreach and communication suck so badly. This is a big issue in rural Ontario and they can't even get the damn players right. For the record is is mostly the well off, absentee landowner who is fine and dandy putting up turbines by other peoples homes, not their own. And if you think the only problem is sightlines you should come spend a few damn minutes living in the middle of these god forsaken things.
Yeah, you'd think like that if the idea of actually raising taxes on the rich is something that's completely off your radar. You'd construct dichotomies like EITHER wage freeze OR layoffs, without ever giving consideration to anything other than making the workers pay for the financial problems caused by the rich.
900,000 salaries also represents 900,000 votes from unionized workers. Where you get the idea that freezing their salaries is a popular idea is a mystery to me.
Where you get the idea that they would vote NDP is a mystery to me as well. You must have missed the Harris years when all kinds of unionized workers, including public sector ones, voted for Harris.
I agree with you on the HST issue.
There was a slate. it was not an official slate t's not how things are done but there was a whole team of people endorsing one another all around support for Neethan Shan. they all had identical lit design and button design. if you know how the party works you know it was a secret slate.
Wasn't questioning the presence of a slate, or two, they exist in every political party and organization. Nothing new there.
So much for the secret ballot.
Since you don't live in Ontario or drive around and see who had signs on their lawns I'm not sure what your issue is. Other than you can't resist baiting others.
Ok, I wasn't sure where you got your data, and it seemed like a slam against unionized workers and public sector workers, which sounded strange to me at a time when those unions are apparently offering to help bankroll an NDP campaign to defeat McGuinty, and at a time when the ONDP is considering voting for a budget which includes attacks on those workers. Pardon me if I misunderstood your intent.
So you're saying that unionized workers, including public sector workers, had Mike Harris signs in their lawns - and that's the basis of your statement?
I'm saying that life is rarely black and white and that people are complex animals who's decisions often make no rational sense. So while many in union leadership and activists were strong defenders against the Harris cuts and actions, many of the rank and file people were not. So there is no attack, just an acknowledgement that sometimes there is a disconnect between the top and the bottom in almost every organization. Nor have I seen a single solitary comment by anyone in union leadership that they would bankroll a campaign. Many in the public sector unions, particularly within teachers unions are dyed in the wool Liberals. They did bankroll the Liberals last fall, including the intangibles like sending workers into campaigns. I find it difficult to believe they have changed their spots nor has a single one of them with any ability to do it, said they would financially back a multi-million dollar campaign. So this assumption that bringing the government down will suddenly lead to a massive groundswell of the kinds of support needed to run a modern campaign will magically materialize is fanciful at best. You have some evidence that rank and file union members didn't vote for Harris?
No, I didn't miss the Harris years. That was the blowback after Bob Rae had attacked public sector wages with "Rae Days".
I don't know how you imagine the public sector unionized workers of Ontario are going to reward the ONDP for voting to freeze their wages. No doubt you'll be surprised when Conservative signs appear on the lawns of public sector workers next election time. And you will curse them for being so ignorant as to turn their back on the NDP!
One problem with the ONDP supporting the Liberal budget is that it means that all the parties in the legislature will be de-facto supporters of the wage and salary freezes. It's much more than just freezes. It's the loss of unionized members the right to negotiate a fair contract. The government will impose a contract. Unionized members will be denied the right to strike. Andrea Horwath may complain about the Liberal government not being fair to public employees. As I mentioned before, it will just be false rhetoric. How could it affect potential NDP votes? Since the NDP won't be seen as advocates for the public sector employees, voters will look at other personal priorities and look at what the different political parties offer them. For example, the Conservatives could offer a 2% income tax reduction to replace a wage freeze. What can the ONDP offer that will meet the specific needs of public service employees?
Again you just make shit up that people didn't say and then harangue them for it. You are a mockery of a progressive voice.
No, I'm a mockery of you, which is altogether a different thing.
I hope we can keep things civil.
I will just add to my recent comment that I believe that voters are general selfish. That is, voters think of their own interests first. Then, they think of general interests. Federally, the Harper Conservatives exploit voters' needs very well.
When I go to vote (or not vote), I generally look for a party that meets my personal needs on issues like taxation and services that will help me. For example, provincially and municipally, I don't mind being taxed extra if the extra money will go to improving public transit because I do use it. If I feel that I am doing well economically and socially, then I will consider higher needs such as the environment and health care for others. I will also consider issues that help the poor and international political affairs. However, if I am personally hurting economically (which I had been at one point in my life), I am going to consider the party that will help me with my immediate needs. I won't give a damn about Israeli-Palestinian relations. I won't give a damn about the general environment.
How do selfish voters affect the ONDP? If one is a unionized public employee, chances are that one is making a reasonable amount of money, although a wage freeze could put some people into the low unreasonable category. One could be paying a mortgage. A pay freeze could affect mortgage payments. It could mean that your child may not get to join a community club because of the costs. Since the ONDP won't be able to differentiate from the other parties based on their de-facto stance on public pay freezes, it will need to offer other incentives. However, the Ontario Conservatives could offer the same voter incentives such as a slight income tax reduction and a provincial tax credit for children's participation in community activities. What will the ONDP offer to those same public service employee voters?
The tax increase Andrea Horwath has put on the table raises in the neighbourhood of $300 to $500 million, depending on how effectively wealthy people can rearrange their affairs to avoid it. In her plan, that mostly goes to the HST exemption for home heating and so, at least if that exemption happens, isn't available for salary increases. Maybe the NDP could ask for more but that starts to become a dangerous game for the Liberals. They were rather lucky last election, having union money supporting them and an absence of corporate money against them so far as the purchase of issues advertising went. It's likely that the Working Families Coalition won't be so enthusiastic in its support of the Ontario Liberals next time and if the business community is pissed off with one too many tax increases that money will come into play in favour of the Tories. "The NDP made us do it" is an excuse that only goes so far and as you can see, the Liberals have a big incentive to say no to tax increases even if that causes another election now. If a tax is raised to cover a salary increase rather than something of more general benefit, there's good reason to think the public won't react well. It's a political environment where much of the public thinks government staff are overpaid - with the media making much every year of the Sunshine List. Gain some votes from public workers, lose more from private workers.
They voted Harris and instead of just a few Rae days off, 10, 000 nurses were given pink slips. And we are still paying for Harris' $35 billion dollar tax cut to rich friends of the party.
Yeah unionized workers showed the NDP where to get off, for sure. Three decades three recessions.
And they think all this ideology is fixable inside one single four-year term in power. It's weak apologism for the neoliberal agenda. We are supposed to believe that neoliberalism has not damaged Canada the way it has. They want Walt Disney or Jesus Christ not the NDP.
And now they are demanding Pinocchio McGuinty style election promises from the NDP and to be lied to their faces. And if that isn't on, then they quietly suggest what amounts to going right along with the two old parties guaranteeing even more of the same, as if that will fix things.
It's busted, Jim. 35 year's worth of ideology down the drain.
Is this factual? If so, how can the ONDP possibly support that? They can support a mandate to government negotiators for a 0% increase if they so decide - but imposing that if it can't be freely negotiated!?
How is that different from Lisa Raitt and Stephen Harper - or Bob Rae's previous government?
I just need clear confirmation that SD's statement is factual. If so, how can Doug and others be arguing about whether there's money or where it will come from? The issue is about destroying the workers' right to free collective bargaining. If Horwath supports this, let her be damned to hell - a proud successor and follower of the previous successful leader of the ONDP, Bob Rae.
Let's blame the NDP for the right's broken-down ideology. It's guaranteed to work wonders.
Txlation:
I've been seeing doctors Quackenbleu and Pinocchio for this gangrenous foot since forever. And Bob Rae couldn't cure me of my gangrene in just one term in office, and so therefore why should I switch from doctors Quackenbleu and Pinocchio to Dr. Horwath?
It makes no sense whatsoever. At some point they'll have to amputate you from the neck up.
Fidel - is Horwath considering support for a measure removing public service workers' constitutional right to free collective bargaining? If you don't know, I forgive you, because I don't either. If she is, then she and anyone who makes pathetic transparent excuses for her should be damned to hell.
It doesn't take two four-year terms in office to remember that you're not supposed to crush workers' democratic rights to bargain and to strike. Bob Rae's ass was kicked and turfed long before then, and may he rot in hell for his betrayal.
Would someone kindly clarify this issue, if possible? If this is true, what other debate about trivial amounts of money would progressive people be engaging in?
Regardless of that party with no future he now leads, Rae's NDP was actually the best government we'd ever had in neoliberal Ontario.
Ontario is a laughing stock today. Half a million manufacturing jobs lost in Canada over the last ten years. And Pinocchio's dropped us all down a bottlomless debt hole like no other government in Ontario's history, and he h as zilch to show for it only a few rich friends of the party handed so many green energy monopolies subsidized by taxpayers.
If you want more of that, then just say so. No need to wax and wane about what happend during a neoliberal meltdown across Canada 21 years ago when the NDP accidentally slipped past the phony-majority machine in Ontario.
I'm sorry, Fidel, that you consider my question of clarification to be so irrelevant that you just go back to your usual mantra.
Ontario is a laughing stock today? I don't think so. I know there's an opposition. Unfortunately, it's not in any of your useless lying political parties. Doesn't mean we won't win. Just means it'll take a little longer.