ONT NDP Leader Andrea Horwath will become Premier of Ontario 2

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mark_alfred

Michael Laxer wrote:
They do not make enough to make ends meet because they are not paid a living wage, the kind of living wage that would come from being paid a $14 or $15 an hour minimum wage. It is sad that no one in parliament advocates for this.

It's frequently raised by the NDP in the Legislative Assembly, often via presenting petitions and declaring agreement with them.  link 1 2 3

Unionist

Are you serious, mark_alfred? Some individuals sign a constituents' petition, and this equates to a political party making it part of its platform? I'm quite confident Horwath will eventually issue some burbles in favour of an increased minimum wage, when her focus-group experts tell her it's safe to do so. In the meantime, and until further notice, I class her with the wannabe-friends-of-the-rich and someone who doesn't give a fuck about the poor and low-income workers. Harsh? tough.

mark_alfred

I'm serious.  Laxer was mistaken to say that no one in parliament advocates for it.  The ONDP's critic of Community and Social Services (Cheri DiNovo) does raise the issue (see link) and other members also present petitions and indicate support (aka advocacy) for the issue.

Horwath's letter focused on a recent trend of right wing governments toward flat taxes (consumption taxes) and user fees as revenue tools for government.  This is the direction a lot of right wing governments are taking -- Rob Ford in Toronto is a prime example (user fees have increased dramatically under his watch).  Wynne's plan to cut taxes on the very rich (above $500G per annum) and to cut corporate taxes while simultaneously planning to impose user fees and flat taxes on the population of Ontario is something that should be fought.  I'm glad to see Horwath taking this step.  Taxation should be progressive, not flat.

Aristotleded24

At the very least, I think the information that mark_alfred produced indicates that the NDP has a bit of a communications problem on the minimum wage issue, which has probably contributed to the frustration that some activists feel regarding Horwath's public statements.

Skinny Dipper

I think Andrea Horwath does have a communications problem on several issues including the minimum wage, labour rights, and transit funding.  She also has a problem of not responding when the Toronto Star posts a few columns and editorials about her lack of action or having policies that may be similar to Tim Hudak's.  The Toronto Star's comments could be damaging to Andrea Horwath.  So far, she has not done any damage control, yet.

onlinediscountanvils

mark_alfred wrote:
I'm serious.  Laxer was mistaken to say that no one in parliament advocates for it.  The ONDP's critic of Community and Social Services (Cheri DiNovo) does raise the issue (see link) and other members also present petitions and indicate support (aka advocacy) for the issue.

 

And then you have Horwath, who acts like someone who doesn't want to be seen in public with the issue.

February 4, 2014:

@AdrianMorrow: [url=https://twitter.com/AdrianMorrow/status/430760598310518785/photo/1]@andreahorwath won't take a position on the minimum wage; she wants to have more conversation with business #onpoli pic.twitter.com/qlitcrzAzh[/url]

@AdrianMorrow: @andreahorwath seemed to get annoyed when reporters pressed her on minimum wage, asked us to move on to something else. #onpoli

@AdrianMorrow: "I think I've pretty much answered all the questions on that," she said "I've given you the response I'm prepared to give." #onpoli

mark_alfred

Regarding the coalition's request for a $14/hr rate, I'm curious where this rate came from.  In (I think) 2004 the rate requested by a similar coalition was an immediate increase to $10/hr from the then existing $6.25/hr.  That didn't happen.  Instead, incrementally it was raised over the years until eventually in 2010 it reached $10.25, and was since frozen.  Now, the government is pledging to raise it from the 2010 rate according to the Consumer Price Index (IE, to match inflation), which ends up being about $11.00 (and they're going to round it up to $11).  If in 2004 the rate had been set at $10/hr, and if the rate had been adjusted each year according to the Consumer Price Index, then today it would be about $12.30.  So, I am curious where the $14 figure came from.

NorthReport

Want to shrink the growing inequality gap.

Minimum wage should be $15 an hour across Canada, and probably $20 an hour in the Lower Mainland of BC.

mark_alfred

Yes, of course.  Supposedly it has something to do with the Ontario government's "low-income measure" (LIM).  Anyone know what this is?

mark_alfred

Well, I unsuccessfully tried to make sense of the gibberish on the statscan site regarding the LIM.  I was hoping to find "the LIM is this number", but alas, no such luck.

Anyway, perhaps Horwath will make further demands of the government.  Certainly her letter suggested that much.  Negotiations are tricky, and that includes negotiating with an austerity minded government like the Liberals.  I feel Horwath has done pretty well up to now, but it may simply be time to pull the plug on the Liberals.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

NorthReport wrote:

Want to shrink the growing inequality gap.

Minimum wage should be $15 an hour across Canada, and probably $20 an hour in the Lower Mainland of BC.

Agreed.

Stockholm

Skinny Dipper wrote:

The Toronto Star's comments could be damaging to Andrea Horwath.

If anyone cared about what the Toronto Star has to say - we would all be complaining about Mayor Smitherman!

Skinny Dipper

Stockholm wrote:

Skinny Dipper wrote:

The Toronto Star's comments could be damaging to Andrea Horwath.

If anyone cared about what the Toronto Star has to say - we would all be complaining about Mayor Smitherman!

That may or may not be true.  However, Ms. Horwath has not responded once to the Toronto Star editorials and columnists.  It seems to be her style not to respond when people make negative comments about her.  Ms. Horwath's lack of response means that others will continue to attack her because she will not defend herself.

Stockholm

Why should Andrea Horwath waste her time "responding" to columns written by Liberal operatives at the Toronto Star? She has a job to do communicating directly with Ontario voters - not trying to placate the "brie and chablis" set that write condescending columns in the Star

onlinediscountanvils

Skinny Dipper wrote:
she will not defend herself.

Or can't.

Skinny Dipper

Stockholm wrote:

Why should Andrea Horwath waste her time "responding" to columns written by Liberal operatives at the Toronto Star? She has a job to do communicating directly with Ontario voters - not trying to placate the "brie and chablis" set that write condescending columns in the Star

Andrea Horwath doesn't need to placate the "brie and chablis" columnists and editorialists at the Toronto Star.  However, she does need to placate the readers of those columns and editorials.

Stockholm

Or maybe she doesn't given how high her favour ability ratings are and how she keeps picking up Liberal seats in by elections

PrairieDemocrat15

ONDP's 2011 stated that an NDP government would commit to "raising the minimum wage to $11/hour indexed to the cost of living..."

Its stil on their website in the "Affordable Hosuing and Anti-poverty Plan" http://ontariondp.com/en/ontario-new-democrats-release-affordable-housin...

And in their general platform (pg. 26): http://ontariondp.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Plan-for-affordable-...

So Andrea won't support the Liberal changs to minimum wage (which is exactly what the NDP proposed) just so the government doesn't get credit for actually doing something helpful? Seems like something the principless, old-line, power for the sake of power, parties would do, not the NDP.

Stockholm

PrairieDemocrat15 wrote:

So Andrea won't support the Liberal changs to minimum wage (which is exactly what the NDP proposed) just so the government doesn't get credit for actually doing something helpful?

She never said she didn't support it.

Unionist

Stockholm wrote:

PrairieDemocrat15 wrote:

So Andrea won't support the Liberal changs to minimum wage (which is exactly what the NDP proposed) just so the government doesn't get credit for actually doing something helpful?

She never said she didn't support it.

What exactly did she say about it?

JimWaterloo

I think that it is time for Andrea to be clear about the figure she feels minimum wage should be at or should we assume that the figure is whatever $11.00 indexed to inflation is today.

It is also interesting to note that Cheri DiNovo was the first MPP to rise in the house to support a $14 minimum wage and add her signature to the petition as noted on raisetheminimumwage.ca

 

PrairieDemocrat15

Stockholm wrote:

PrairieDemocrat15 wrote:

So Andrea won't support the Liberal changs to minimum wage (which is exactly what the NDP proposed) just so the government doesn't get credit for actually doing something helpful?

She never said she didn't support it.

Okay, she isn't actively opposing it; but in my books, that does not count as support. If she was saying that $11 an hour doesn't go far enough, that's one thing; but as far as I know, she isn't saying that.

For the record, I don't think she is keeping quite on minimum wage because she's trying to court the small business vote. I think its purely political - she doesn't want to give the Libs any credit.

Aristotleded24

PrairieDemocrat15 wrote:
For the record, I don't think she is keeping quite on minimum wage because she's trying to court the small business vote. I think its purely political - she doesn't want to give the Libs any credit.

Couldn't she say something like, "I am pleased that Premier Wynne has raised the minimum wage. While we feel that more needs to be done to raise wages to sustainable levels, we applaud that the government has at least started in this direction (albiet belatedly) and New Democrats are going to continue to raise the issue to fight for everyday families (or whatever pap focus-group tested phrase the Ontario NDP has latched on to). The next move is up to the government, and we will continue to work hard to get results."

Skinny Dipper

That would be perfect, Aristotleded24.

Pierre C yr

The rise in the minimum wage to 11$ is paltry. Giving credit to the Liberals after years of foot dragging on the eve of an election is not.

Brachina

 Andrea was the one who pushed to boost taxes on the rich to give more money to people on disablity. She's always been a friend to the poor and so my gut tells me she has a plan, but is not ready to share it yet, not to mention she likes the idea of leaving Wynn hanging in uncertainty. Horwath reveals things when she's good and ready and  not a minute before. She drops and drips demands, driving the Liberals nuts as she drags things out for maxium PR, its what she does for example every budget during the minority or anytime she gets the opportunity.

 So don't assume this is about poverty, this is about psychological warfare against the Liberals as well as maintaining control of things. Andrea will reveal things when it serves her purposes.

Brachina

http://ontariondp.com/en/letter-to-the-premier

 

 Just the latest example of what I mean. Not a single demand, just an attack, and the promise of future demands, on Andreas schedule. 

 

 Honestly I certain that Andreas fucking with Doltan's head was the reason he resigned in the first place.

 I will note that she redierates her support for taxes on the rich and the corporations, even as she defends the middle class against a tax increase. Cleaver, basically she found away and a message that allows her to appeal to both left winger and some of the more populist right wingers and potentiential the suburbs. 

onlinediscountanvils

Brachina wrote:
Andrea was the one who pushed to boost taxes on the rich to give more money to people on disablity.

She demanded a sub-inflationary increase to ODSP, amounting to a cut in buying power.

During the years of the Liberal majority, McGuinty raised ODSP by 13.9%. In the two years that the NDP have held the balance of power, they've raised it a mere 1% each year (and I don't even think an ODSP increase was one of her demands in 2013).

So, Horwath has used her leverage to secure lesser increases than had been granted by the Liberals in the preceeding years. And now, adjusted for inflation, people on ODSP are worse off than we were under Harris.

 

Brachina wrote:
Horwath reveals things when she's good and ready and  not a minute before. She drops and drips demands, driving the Liberals nuts as she drags things out for maxium PR, its what she does for example every budget during the minority or anytime she gets the opportunity.

I guess you're forgetting about 2012, when Horwath made it clear that she was desperate to avoid an election prior to presenting McGuinty with her list of budget 'demands'. That must have really "fucked with his head".

mark_alfred

You're referring to times before austerity was all the rage (IE, before the near financial melt-down in the States).  After the Drummond report the Liberals pledged to freeze social assistance rates while simultaneously cutting corporate taxes.  It's to the NDP's credit that they used their influence to reverse this stupid Liberal pledge.

Aristotleded24

mark_alfred wrote:
You're referring to times before austerity was all the rage (IE, before the near financial melt-down in the States).  After the Drummond report the Liberals pledged to freeze social assistance rates while simultaneously cutting corporate taxes.  It's to the NDP's credit that they used their influence to reverse this stupid Liberal pledge.

The only thing that matters to people on social assistance is whether or not they have enough money to live off. If they don't, that needs to be fixed ASAP, no excuses.

mark_alfred

Agreed.  And the Liberals have failed miserably.  Time to switch to the NDP.

Aristotleded24

mark_alfred wrote:
Time to switch to the NDP.

We tried that in Manitoba and social assistance rates have been frozen for practically the entire life of this government.

mark_alfred

Don't know about Manitoba.  But here in Ontario, it's certainly time to switch away from the austerity minded Liberals and to the NDP.

onlinediscountanvils

Unionist wrote:

Stockholm wrote:

PrairieDemocrat15 wrote:

So Andrea won't support the Liberal changs to minimum wage (which is exactly what the NDP proposed) just so the government doesn't get credit for actually doing something helpful?

She never said she didn't support it.

What exactly did she say about it?

She burbled that it's good enough for now. Raise it by $0.50 each of the next two years. No word on how long it will take to get to $14 (nor what $14 will buy when we finally do get there).

Oh... and tax cuts.

[url=http://ontariondp.com/en/minimumwage]Cut small business tax rates while gradually raising the minimum wage: NDP[/url]

Brachina

 Small businesa tax cuts, while she's called for tax increases on big business and raised taxes already on the rich. Many small business people are not rich themselves, and are part of the middle class or some even poor (in the case of independant contracts or small business people heavily in debt). This will help small businesses who are struggling to pay there employees more without hurting them further.

 Its smart, cleaver, and a win for everybody. 

 Don't get me wrong its still should be higher, but it would still leave Ontario with the highest minium wage in the country.

 And don't get me wrong by all means keep pushing the NDP for more, but this is a step in the right direction.

 As for the Praire wings of the NDP tbey've made some poor choices for leader, having learned the wrong lessons in the 90's and they are paying for it. The NDP is struggling in Sask because of thier choices in the 90's and the Manitoba Seliginer government will follow suit most likely. 

 But there is still reason to hope, especially in Ontario and depending on who they pick in BC, and nationally for a smarter way for the NDP.

 

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Brachina wrote:
Its smart, cleaver, and a win for everybody.

I don't usually do spelling flames, but you're right. It's a razor-smart cleaver for everyone.

Kepp gunning for that small business credibility, ONDP. Ignore the clamouring of wide-spread support for $14 minimum wage from unions, social activists and young people. Who is the fucking genius running their "campaign"?

mark_alfred

From conversations I've had with people, I don't think proposing raising it to $14 immediately is saleable.  I feel it would lead to a definite election loss for the NDP.  But I also think what they are proposing is a bit low for my tastes.

theleftyinvestor

NorthReport wrote:

Want to shrink the growing inequality gap.

Minimum wage should be $15 an hour across Canada, and probably $20 an hour in the Lower Mainland of BC.

 

In the Lower Mainland I was hired for just shy of $20/hour to do work for which I have a directly related Master's degree. And the employer was never shy about reminding me how lucky I was to have a job. Or how generous they were by letting me use my bare legal minimum 2 weeks vacation before my first anniversary of working there. 

Skinny Dipper

Andrea Horwath looks like she is promising to support a $12 minimum wage June 2016.  If inflation were to exist at 3% per year, Ms. Horwath's proposal would actually be slightly less than the Liberal proposal to index to inflation which would be about $12.20.

PrairieDemocrat15

Wynne was trolling Horwath in QP today. In response to Horwath's asking when the government will lower the small business tax to 4%, the Premier reminded the leader of the third party that revenue is important for delivering services and cutting taxes across the board is not the way to go.

I know Horwath is against broad tax cuts for high-income earners and corporations and that the NDP has always been supportive of small business, but its still quite funny that the ONDP is, in some areas, more anti-tax than the Ontario Liberals.

http://youtu.be/mZ8j9Aawn9g

Aristotleded24

Brachina wrote:
Small businesa tax cuts, while she's called for tax increases on big business and raised taxes already on the rich. Many small business people are not rich themselves, and are part of the middle class or some even poor (in the case of independant contracts or small business people heavily in debt). This will help small businesses who are struggling to pay there employees more without hurting them further.

 Its smart, cleaver, and a win for everybody.

Actually it's not that clever. For one, there is a mythology around the "hard working small businessman" that gives credibility to the business class. The Canadian Federation of Independent Businesses, the "voice of small business," is always adamantly against any improvement to labour standards. Do you think it's because of Wal-Mart and McDonalds that we have a hard time raising the minimum wage? No, it's because Joe who runs the small business down the street from us and who we have coffee with every morning before work says that raising wage rates will hurt his business. (There's a reason why I'm being gender-specific.) And no matter what, small business lobbies hate the NDP. The Manitoba NDP likes to brag about how business-friendly the province is, especially about reducing the small business tax rate to zero, and yet reading the public comment boards on the Winnipeg Free Press you would think that these poor Manitoba small businesses are under a straightjacket of red tape that threatens to strangle them out of business, and that it's soooooo much harder to be in business in Manitoba than anywhere else because of the NDP.

PrairieDemocrat15

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Brachina wrote:
Small businesa tax cuts, while she's called for tax increases on big business and raised taxes already on the rich. Many small business people are not rich themselves, and are part of the middle class or some even poor (in the case of independant contracts or small business people heavily in debt). This will help small businesses who are struggling to pay there employees more without hurting them further.

 Its smart, cleaver, and a win for everybody.

Actually it's not that clever. For one, there is a mythology around the "hard working small businessman" that gives credibility to the business class. The Canadian Federation of Independent Businesses, the "voice of small business," is always adamantly against any improvement to labour standards. Do you think it's because of Wal-Mart and McDonalds that we have a hard time raising the minimum wage? No, it's because Joe who runs the small business down the street from us and who we have coffee with every morning before work says that raising wage rates will hurt his business. (There's a reason why I'm being gender-specific.) And no matter what, small business lobbies hate the NDP. The Manitoba NDP likes to brag about how business-friendly the province is, especially about reducing the small business tax rate to zero, and yet reading the public comment boards on the Winnipeg Free Press you would think that these poor Manitoba small businesses are under a straightjacket of red tape that threatens to strangle them out of business, and that it's soooooo much harder to be in business in Manitoba than anywhere else because of the NDP.

I agree with most of your post. Especially the comment about the WFP comments section. Its difficult to read the comments section of an article about the NDP or provinical government without seeing the words "Communist," "Marxist," and my personal favourite, "Stalinger" thrown around. 

However, I will say that just because the CFIB says its speaks for small business, doesn't mean it actually does. Also, there are female small businesswomen and some of them are conservative.

NorthReport

Ontario NDP winning over voters with less policy, not more

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ontario-ndp-winning-over-vo...

NorthReport

Andrea can win the election

Liberal minimum-wage hike not enough, Ontario NDP says 

Ontario NDP Leader Andrea Horwath is calling for the government to raise the minimum wage by even more than it is currently planning.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/liberal-minimum-wage-hike-n...

Stockholm

Has it occurred to anyone that maybe the ONDP pitch to small business isn't actually about getting votes from the relatively tiny proportion of voters who are small business people - but rather about getting votes from Ontarians in general because research likely shows that the average person likes the idea of "helping small business"

Aristotleded24

Stockholm wrote:
Has it occurred to anyone that maybe the ONDP pitch to small business isn't actually about getting votes from the relatively tiny proportion of voters who are small business people - but rather about getting votes from Ontarians in general because research likely shows that the average person likes the idea of "helping small business"

Most people know that business lobby groups aren't going to support the NDP anyways. And some of the policies are just plain dumb, for example that $1400 tax credit for new employees. There isn't a single employer out there thinking "gee, if only I got a tax credit I would be able to hire somebody," a minimum wage employee working full time will eat through that credit in a month anyways, and anyone who bothers to take a look knows it's ridiculous.

Skinny Dipper

NorthReport wrote:

Andrea can win the election

Liberal minimum-wage hike not enough, Ontario NDP says 

Ontario NDP Leader Andrea Horwath is calling for the government to raise the minimum wage by even more than it is currently planning.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/liberal-minimum-wage-hike-n...

What's interesting is that the $12 minimum wage that Andrea Horwath is proposing equals about the same wage in 2016 under the Liberal proposal due to inflation and cost-of-living increases.

Skinny Dipper

Stockholm, I have to agree that Andrea Horwath is not directly trying to gain the support from small business people, but from voters that are generally supportive of small business people.

We need to think about the type of voter that Andrea Horwath wants to gain.  With her announcements on no new taxes or fees such as tolls to fund transit, I think she wants to attract the average voter who chose Rob Ford for mayor of Toronto--poorer suburbanites who shop at Walmart.  She also wants to reach out to Ontarians outside the Greater Toronto Area who fear that their tax dollars will go to fund transit in Toronto which will not directly benefit them.  For example, what good is a new subway line in Toronto for the people of London or Kitchener?  Note: she will not gain new support from people living in the richer suburbs in places like York Region or Halton Region.

janfromthebruce

okay, I live in rural Ontario. What happen to the belief of sustainable communities? Sustainable communities, include shopping locally and having businesses, services and resources to support the local and vibrant economy.

And one would be surprised who supports the NDP locally and own small businesses. Small businesses may be storefronts but also those who provide various services.

Brachina

 I voted for a small business woman running on the NDP ticket once. Jack Layton himself had a small business. And most small businesses don't belong to such goify organizations.

 But I agree Andrea needs to review her nunbers, she tied it to inflation and added .50 cents more so her math is off when she says 12 dollars an hour.

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