Ontario polling thread (April 18, 2012)

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Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Debater wrote:

PrairieDemocrat15 wrote:

I'd rather see the NDP gain at the PCs' expense than at the Liberals'. A Liberal collapse and NDP surge, combined with a Hudak majority is worse than the status-quo.

Thank-you.  I'm glad to see someone say this here - it is so rare on this board.  Most posters here often sound like they hate the Liberals so much they would rather the Conservatives win (which is ironic for people who are supposedly 'progressive').

Unfortunately, the NDP does often split the vote and take more away from the Liberals than the Conservatives. This happened in the 2011 federal election, and that is why Harper got a Majority.  And in the 2011 provincial election, the 6-7 seats that Horwarth picked up all came at the expense of the Liberals - she didn't take any from the PC's.  It was the same for Layton outside Quebec in 2011 - he only took away ONE Conservative seat in English Canada (Surrey North).

The Liberals remain the best option for beating the Conservatives, which is why it is puzzling why some people here want Justin Trudeau to be defeated (and even in his own riding, which won't happen, but it's odd that people wish for that).  Mulcair has been NDP leader for 2 years now and has not been able to grow NDP support outside of Quebec and is in 3rd place.  Trudeau has been able to emerge as the main alternative to Harper, including in Western Canada (take last fall's Manitoba by-elections, for example).  That may also be the case in next month's Alberta by-elections.  We'll have to stay tuned.

1)The Liberals were going to lose to Harper in 2011 no matter what.   No poll had shown them beating the Cons for at least two years.

2)The Liberals didn't significantly disagree with the Cons on the major issues, and the Chretien/Martin era shows that a Liberal government elected in 2011 could actually have ended up being to the RIGHT of Harper on economics and social spending(the issues that really matter). it would be pointless for progressives to ever again give their votes to the party that made more cuts to sicial spending and transfer payments than Mulroney did-and who did that, in part, to finance a totrally unneeded tax cut for the .001%.

3)The Liberals aren't automatically entitled to anti-Conservative votes.   If they want those votes, they have an obligation to do what PET did and actually offer policies that would EARN them those votes.  Why aren't you pushing 'Lil Justin to follow his dad's example?

Why do people in your party still sound so arrogant and entitled after falling to THIRD place in the last election?  The days when the only choice for a governing party in Canada are the Libs or the Cons are done now...and done forever.  For your own good, lose the smugness already. 

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

DLivings wrote:

I've been in the streets many times over the years...  as a 13 year old showing solidarity against a Liberal government in Saskatchewan trying to turn back Douglas's recently enacted medicare (enacting "deterrent" fees), against the uranmium development without adequate environmental measures of the ndp government in Saskatchewan in the late 70's, and many more times since.  And it's a critical part of standing up for, and creating awareness about, issues that affect workers, the environment, the poor and dispossessed, and more.

I don't know if you're suggesting that political action (of the democratic and systems type) is a waste of time and not worth doing.  If so, this sanctions and legitimizes running street battles between different factions because "that's the only way to get things done".  This, of course, is what the Harper and Obama governments support abroad (Libya, Egypt, Honduras, Syria, Ukraine) but never at home.  It's ironic (okay, often criminal) that we support these insurrections rather than the use of the ballot box.  If Harper's and Obamas's stance were applied in our own backyard for example, this would legitimize a tea-party revolt that seized government in the US, just because they have the street might, assault rifles and all, to support their insurrection and thus to impose their view of the world.

The street work and the democratic political work go hand-in-hand.

txs
..what i suggest (and i do so all over the place in babble) is that new ways are being found to make decisions that have nothing to do with the parliamentary system. for example to arrive at the policy of zero tuition fees with the cost to be borne by taxing corporations was made by que students in general assemblies. the stalemate over pipelines re tar sands oil and lng has (imho) come about by alliances made at a grassroots level and decided upon in a democratic way. come aug the people’s social forum will bring together many people who will beginning a process of building a different world in a inclusive way. and finally i would like to present my latest find of what is possible from the ground up.

Food, Energy, Finance: A Solutions Movement Takes Root In Northern California

http://www.occupy.com/article/food-energy-finance-solutions-movement-tak...

..what role elected govs will play in canda or anywhere else isn’t always clear. in bc some ndp mp's and mla's are supporting the antipipeline movements. so some will be supportive and some not but in any case, the important thing is, that change will move forward. and that it moves forward from the ground up which is very different then the top down governing structures in place.

 

DLivings

epaulo13 wrote:

..what role elected govs will play in canda or anywhere else isn’t always clear. in bc some ndp mp's and mla's are supporting the antipipeline movements. so some will be supportive and some not but in any case, the important thing is, that change will move forward. and that it moves forward from the ground up which is very different then the top down governing structures in place.

Granted that democracy changes...   and I spent time at Vancouver's Occupy site as well.  Nevertheless, there has to be a common table where voices come together to make public decisions.  Whether it's about pipelines or tuition hikes. I totally support increasing taxes on corporations and the wealthy to pay for education (including college education)  It still takes public policy made by a democratically elected government to sanction such a policy.  Who will make the corporations pay unless it's through an increase in corporate taxes.  If the students simply drop down to the corporate offices to take their share, what's stopping the corporations from choosing which colleges/research they will fund?  The latter is a matter of public policy, and so is the former.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

DLivings wrote:

epaulo13 wrote:

..what role elected govs will play in canda or anywhere else isn’t always clear. in bc some ndp mp's and mla's are supporting the antipipeline movements. so some will be supportive and some not but in any case, the important thing is, that change will move forward. and that it moves forward from the ground up which is very different then the top down governing structures in place.

Granted that democracy changes...   and I spent time at Vancouver's Occupy site as well.  Nevertheless, there has to be a common table where voices come together to make public decisions.  Whether it's about pipelines or tuition hikes. I totally support increasing taxes on corporations and the wealthy to pay for education (including college education)  It still takes public policy made by a democratically elected government to sanction such a policy.  Who will make the corporations pay unless it's through an increase in corporate taxes.  If the students simply drop down to the corporate offices to take their share, what's stopping the corporations from choosing which colleges/research they will fund?  The latter is a matter of public policy, and so is the former.

Rokossovsky

takeitslowly wrote:

is there any news article link that talks about the privatization deals in the Liberal budget?

 

No. Just the MSM talking about how outsourcing maintenance contracts on transit is not "really" privatization.

Rokossovsky
epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

DLivings wrote:

epaulo13 wrote:

..what role elected govs will play in canda or anywhere else isn’t always clear. in bc some ndp mp's and mla's are supporting the antipipeline movements. so some will be supportive and some not but in any case, the important thing is, that change will move forward. and that it moves forward from the ground up which is very different then the top down governing structures in place.

Granted that democracy changes...   and I spent time at Vancouver's Occupy site as well.  Nevertheless, there has to be a common table where voices come together to make public decisions.  Whether it's about pipelines or tuition hikes. I totally support increasing taxes on corporations and the wealthy to pay for education (including college education)  It still takes public policy made by a democratically elected government to sanction such a policy.  Who will make the corporations pay unless it's through an increase in corporate taxes.  If the students simply drop down to the corporate offices to take their share, what's stopping the corporations from choosing which colleges/research they will fund?  The latter is a matter of public policy, and so is the former.

..eventually policy is produced but first is where the decision comes from, where the push comes from. i've said this before and i'll say it again..we don't need politicos representing us we need bureaucrats implementing our decisions. maybe our paths crossed but i was also a part of the van occupy and i very much agree with the concept of inclusion. many many people are not waiting for something to happen but are making it happen. as i have already pointed out. is i see it there is no better option.

..one of the reason that ontario is facing possible catastrophe coming from this election is that the ndp didn't consult. it made it's decision in an election chamber based on stats and possibilities. it very well knew what risks they were forcing on the peoples of ontario. maybe even counting on the fact that if enough people where scared they would vote ndp. our lives are being fucked with and our lives and the lives of our are to important to be left in their hands. it's a matter of survival on many many levels.

Rokossovsky

epaulo13 wrote:

..one of the reason that ontario is facing possible catastrophe coming from this election is that the ndp didn't consult. it made it's decision in an election chamber based on stats and possibilities. it very well knew what risks they were forcing on the peoples of ontario. maybe even counting on the fact that if enough people where scared they would vote ndp. our lives are being fucked with and our lives and the lives of our are to important to be left in their hands. it's a matter of survival on many many levels.

Come on. One minute you are talking about how elections are meaningless exercizes, and now running scared of a direct confrontation iwth the forces of the right.

It's hard to tell where you stand. Fact is that the threat from the right might even have been greater at the end of the election cycle, next year.

There was going to ba an election next year, one way or the other. And conditions could have been worse.

Can't go on backing down, based on the fantasy that somehow if we cave in enough to Liberal governance, we can play politics and prevent the Tories from getting in. What no one is talking about is the fact that the reason the Tories are sounding so crazy now, is because all of their more reasonable policies have already been absorbed by the Liberals.

Full privatization of Hydro was a Tory idea up until about a year ago. The Liberals are promoting it now.

I am glad the NDP opposed this austerity budget. It was the right thing to do. Austerity should be opposed.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Rokossovsky wrote:

Sure but I support them when they say they oppose imposition of greater austerity restructuring. And more importantly, I reject the view of many on this board who assert that the the Liberal "platform" is more progressive than the NDP "platform" because saying so accepts the ideological view that further privatization, asset sales, and flat taxes are acceptable tools for implementing socially progressive policy.

I categorically reject the Liberal budget.

This analysis of "platform" stands regardless of what the NDP may or may not do when in power. Its important for people to be clear on what is and is not progressive, otherwise the ideological space is going to get extremely confused.

This is not confused: Watch!

..what i understand is that the ndp had a role in creating this crisis. this is not a surprise or accident. was the ndp so far up in the polls like in bc where this risk was a necessity? now again you narrow the debate by suggesting voting ndp is better than the alternatives. people have held their noses and voted for years..it's time for a differnt song to be sung.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Rokossovsky wrote:

epaulo13 wrote:

..one of the reason that ontario is facing possible catastrophe coming from this election is that the ndp didn't consult. it made it's decision in an election chamber based on stats and possibilities. it very well knew what risks they were forcing on the peoples of ontario. maybe even counting on the fact that if enough people where scared they would vote ndp. our lives are being fucked with and our lives and the lives of our are to important to be left in their hands. it's a matter of survival on many many levels.

Come on. One minute you are talking about how elections are meaningless exercizes, and now running scared of a direct confrontation iwth the forces of the right.

It's hard to tell where you stand. Fact is that the threat from the right might even have been greater at the end of the election cycle, next year.

There was going to ba an election next year, one way or the other. And conditions could have been worse.

Can't go on backing down, based on the fantasy that somehow if we cave in enough to Liberal governance, we can play politics and prevent the Tories from getting in. What no one is talking about is the fact that the reason the Tories are sounding so crazy now, is because all of their more reasonable policies have already been absorbed by the Liberals.

Full privatization of Hydro was a Tory idea up until about a year ago. The Liberals are promoting it now.

I am glad the NDP opposed this austerity budget. It was the right thing to do. Austerity should be opposed.

..i never said that elections were meaningless. why are you saying that i did?

 

Rokossovsky

Ok then. So what is the point then? You think that Hudak was going to disappear if the NDP supported the budget? When was the right time to call an election? Why not now? Why later? Why not oppose the Liberal austerity budget?

DLivings

epaulo13 wrote:

..i never said that elections were meaningless. why are you saying that i did?

Based on your post I first responded to epaulo, I've drawn the same conclusion as Rokossovsky.  My point is quite simply, we need to be on the streets, doing visible things raising awareness on important issues and hammering out what solutions can look like...   AND that doesn't absolve us from involvement in the electoral process.  In fact, it makes it just as important to be plugged in there so there's a connection between the idea generating and the public policy making.

Re Horwath's ndp campaign...  given the LIb's record it's understandable that support wasn't offered for another budget of empty Liberal promises.  The hardest part for the ndp is waging a battle for the minds and votes of the electorate when the Lib's war chest is at $4 million and counting and ndp's is not yet at a million.  I suspect that has as much as anything to do with the delayed announcement, the slim province-wide messaging by the ndp...  I'm not sure it was the best strategy, but I get it.

takeitslowly

well from a union...of course..but...maybe a more neutral source would help, but thanks anyways, shared on facebook

PrairieDemocrat15

Rokossovsky wrote:

epaulo13 wrote:

..one of the reason that ontario is facing possible catastrophe coming from this election is that the ndp didn't consult. it made it's decision in an election chamber based on stats and possibilities. it very well knew what risks they were forcing on the peoples of ontario. maybe even counting on the fact that if enough people where scared they would vote ndp. our lives are being fucked with and our lives and the lives of our are to important to be left in their hands. it's a matter of survival on many many levels.

Come on. One minute you are talking about how elections are meaningless exercizes, and now running scared of a direct confrontation iwth the forces of the right.

It's hard to tell where you stand. Fact is that the threat from the right might even have been greater at the end of the election cycle, next year.

There was going to ba an election next year, one way or the other. And conditions could have been worse.

Can't go on backing down, based on the fantasy that somehow if we cave in enough to Liberal governance, we can play politics and prevent the Tories from getting in. What no one is talking about is the fact that the reason the Tories are sounding so crazy now, is because all of their more reasonable policies have already been absorbed by the Liberals.

Full privatization of Hydro was a Tory idea up until about a year ago. The Liberals are promoting it now.

I am glad the NDP opposed this austerity budget. It was the right thing to do. Austerity should be opposed.

The Liberals support the full privatization of Hydro One and OPG? Show me the evidence (the review of Crown assests doesn't count). Also, although Hudak is no longer talking about the total privatization of OPG and Hydro One, the white paper that initally called for such a move is still on the PC website and Hudak's official 2014 platform advocates "opening up" Hydro One, OPG, and the LCBO to investment from Ontario pension funds (does anyone else find it hypocritical that OMERS has been the biggest beneficiary of privatization in Ontario in recent years?).

Both the Liberals and the Conservatives are a threat to public power, but the latter are a far greater and more immediate threat.

Unionist

Good posts, epaulo, as usual. But take note (as you know) that some people consider "the movement" to be some non-existent joke which merely interferes with the cosmetic packaging of a party at election time. It really represents two incompatible world outlooks. That's why a Liberal like Horwath can be presented as anti-Liberal. And her election to power as being the only road to salvation.

onlinediscountanvils

Just to address the ridiculous...

"The Campaign to Raise the Minimum Wage is coordinated by ACORN, Freedom 90, Mennonite New Life Centre, OCAP, Ontario Campaign 2000, Parkdale Community Legal Services, Put Food in the Budget, Social Planning Toronto, Toronto and York Region Labour Council and the Workers’ Action Centre." http://raisetheminimumwage.ca

 

ACORN:

[url=http://rabble.ca/podcasts/shows/john-bonnar-audio-blog/2013/02/ottawa-ac... ACORN demands a stop to the ODSP income clawback[/url]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QV5LpWdY7Y]Ottawa Acorn- Stop the income clawback for ODSP OW recipients-MPP Yasir Naqvi's Office[/url]

 

[url=http://www.freedom90.ca/index.html]Freedom 90[/url]: "The Government of Ontario must ensure that social assistance and minimum wage levels are sufficient for everyone to have adequate housing and to buy their own food."

"We will continue until the province of Ontario specifically, recognizes that it can no longer continue to turn a blind eye to the deep poverty that individuals and families on OW and ODSP are confined to, living on social assistance rates 60% below the poverty line."

 

[url=http://mnlct.org/engagement/action/]Mennonite New Life Centre[/url]: "All Ontarians deserve good living standards. Parents deserve the resources they need to raise their children in safety and love – free of the fear and stigma of poverty. Specifics include:

  • Close the gap between life on social assistance and moving out of poverty.
  • Make it easier for people with disabilities to get access to theOntarioDisability Support Program (ODSP).
  • Enrich the Ontario Child Benefit." - 25 in 5 Network for Poverty Reduction

 

[url=http://ocap.ca/files/history%20of%20ocap.pdf]OCAP[/url]: "OCAP is a direct-action anti-poverty organization based in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. We mount campaigns against regressive government policies as they affect poor and working people. In addition, we provide direct-action advocacy for individuals against welfare and ODSP, public housing and others who deny poor people what they are entitled to. We believe in the power of people to organize themselves.

We believe in the power of resistance."

 

[url=http://www.campaign2000.ca/Ontario/OntC2000PovertyReductionStrategyOct20... Campaign 2000[/url]: "Increasing the shamefully low social assistance rates of Ontario’s 892,099 recipientsv is long overdue as current rates do not even cover food, housing and clothing costs.vi As of December 2012, a single parent on Ontario Works (OW) with one young child received $940 a month plus a maximum annual Ontario Child Benefit (OCB) of $92vii - even with provincial and federal child benefits and tax credits included, these families lived $9,116 below the LIM.

Ontario needs positive social assistance reform that promotes equity and justice. The next poverty reduction strategy must stipulate that reforms to social assistance should only be made if they have the effect of reducing poverty. And there should be no “winners and losers” – no one on social assistance should end up with less money as a result of any reform. It should also outline the investments that will be made in reforming the system, as the only real way to make meaningful, positive change is to invest in improvements. If the right reforms and investments are made now, savings will come later. A holistic positive reform of social assistance will also require improving the many other services people need. Employment supports and services, child care services, mental health supports and services, and many others need to be improved.

The social assistance system has been eroded over the past twenty years. Rates are dangerously low and well below the reality of the cost of living in Ontario. Ontario Works benefits for a single person would have to increase by 56% and the Ontario Disability Support Program by 22% to have the same purchasing power as they had in 1993. We must invest in the health and dignity of people on OW and ODSP, and not continue to allow their incomes to erode." - Ontario Poverty Reduction Strategy Submission; October 4, 2013

 

[url=http://www.parkdalelegal.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&i... Community Legal Services[/url]: "PCLS is participating in a province-wide coalition for the revocation of the clawback of the National Child Benefit Supplement from families receiving social assistance."

 

[url=http://putfoodinthebudget.ca/about_us/about_us.html]Put Food in the Budget[/url]: "The Put Food in the Budget campaign began in January 2009 in response to Premier McGuinty's decision to exclude an increase in social assistance rates for adults in Ontario from his poverty reduction strategy.

The Put Food in the Budget campaign had two demands. The first demand was for an immediate $100-a-month increase for every adult in Ontario receiving social assistance. The second demand was that the proposed Social Assistance Review Commission recommend social assistance rates at a level that ensured a life of health and dignity.

The Social Assistance Review Commission has not addressed the inadequacy of social assistance rates. Four years after the announcement of the poverty reduction strategy a social assistance rate increase of $100 a month will not be adequate. The Put Food in the Budget campaign is therefore broadening its demands."

 

Then, of course, there's the [url=http://raisetherates.ca/?page_id=6]Raise The Rates[/url] campaign:

"Raise the Rates is a campaign to fight poverty by raising social assistance rates in Ontario. Jointly organized by the Ontario Coalition Against Poverty (OCAP), the Canadian Union of Public Employees (CUPE) Ontario, Sudbury Coalition Against Poverty (S-CAP), Kingston Coalition Against Poverty (K-CAP), Poverty Makes Us Sick Waterloo Region, Poverty Makes Us Sick Ottawa, OPSEU and other grassroots anti-poverty organizers and trade union allies from across Ontario. We are a growing movement united in fighting for:

• Raise Social Assistance Rates 55%: reverse the cuts, raise the rates!

• Restore Special Diet and Community Start-Up Benefits

• Stop the Attack on Disability Benefits

• Living wage for all: Raise the Minimum wage above poverty wages"

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..my point is the ndp may be the lesser of the evils but they do not represent the the massive change needed. so what do we do about that. i may very well vote for them but i don't buy into their politics. i'm pointing out what is going on all around us and it's growing. it's an important and available option. above all i have more faith in that than the electoral system for making meaningful change. working from a perspective of a participatory society is the only way out of the global mess we are in. edit

Rokossovsky

onlinediscountanvils wrote:

Just to address the ridiculous...

"The Campaign to Raise the Minimum Wage is coordinated by ACORN, Freedom 90, Mennonite New Life Centre, OCAP, Ontario Campaign 2000, Parkdale Community Legal Services, Put Food in the Budget, Social Planning Toronto, Toronto and York Region Labour Council and the Workers’ Action Centre." http://raisetheminimumwage.ca

 

ACORN:

[url=http://rabble.ca/podcasts/shows/john-bonnar-audio-blog/2013/02/ottawa-ac... ACORN demands a stop to the ODSP income clawback[/url]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QV5LpWdY7Y]Ottawa Acorn- Stop the income clawback for ODSP OW recipients-MPP Yasir Naqvi's Office[/url]

 

[url=http://www.freedom90.ca/index.html]Freedom 90[/url]: "The Government of Ontario must ensure that social assistance and minimum wage levels are sufficient for everyone to have adequate housing and to buy their own food."

"We will continue until the province of Ontario specifically, recognizes that it can no longer continue to turn a blind eye to the deep poverty that individuals and families on OW and ODSP are confined to, living on social assistance rates 60% below the poverty line."

 

[url=http://mnlct.org/engagement/action/]Mennonite New Life Centre[/url]: "All Ontarians deserve good living standards. Parents deserve the resources they need to raise their children in safety and love – free of the fear and stigma of poverty. Specifics include:

  • Close the gap between life on social assistance and moving out of poverty.
  • Make it easier for people with disabilities to get access to theOntarioDisability Support Program (ODSP).
  • Enrich the Ontario Child Benefit." - 25 in 5 Network for Poverty Reduction

 

[url=http://ocap.ca/files/history%20of%20ocap.pdf]OCAP[/url]: "OCAP is a direct-action anti-poverty organization based in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. We mount campaigns against regressive government policies as they affect poor and working people. In addition, we provide direct-action advocacy for individuals against welfare and ODSP, public housing and others who deny poor people what they are entitled to. We believe in the power of people to organize themselves.

We believe in the power of resistance."

 

[url=http://www.campaign2000.ca/Ontario/OntC2000PovertyReductionStrategyOct20... Campaign 2000[/url]: "Increasing the shamefully low social assistance rates of Ontario’s 892,099 recipientsv is long overdue as current rates do not even cover food, housing and clothing costs.vi As of December 2012, a single parent on Ontario Works (OW) with one young child received $940 a month plus a maximum annual Ontario Child Benefit (OCB) of $92vii - even with provincial and federal child benefits and tax credits included, these families lived $9,116 below the LIM.

Ontario needs positive social assistance reform that promotes equity and justice. The next poverty reduction strategy must stipulate that reforms to social assistance should only be made if they have the effect of reducing poverty. And there should be no “winners and losers” – no one on social assistance should end up with less money as a result of any reform. It should also outline the investments that will be made in reforming the system, as the only real way to make meaningful, positive change is to invest in improvements. If the right reforms and investments are made now, savings will come later. A holistic positive reform of social assistance will also require improving the many other services people need. Employment supports and services, child care services, mental health supports and services, and many others need to be improved.

The social assistance system has been eroded over the past twenty years. Rates are dangerously low and well below the reality of the cost of living in Ontario. Ontario Works benefits for a single person would have to increase by 56% and the Ontario Disability Support Program by 22% to have the same purchasing power as they had in 1993. We must invest in the health and dignity of people on OW and ODSP, and not continue to allow their incomes to erode." - Ontario Poverty Reduction Strategy Submission; October 4, 2013

 

[url=http://www.parkdalelegal.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&i... Community Legal Services[/url]: "PCLS is participating in a province-wide coalition for the revocation of the clawback of the National Child Benefit Supplement from families receiving social assistance."

 

[url=http://putfoodinthebudget.ca/about_us/about_us.html]Put Food in the Budget[/url]: "The Put Food in the Budget campaign began in January 2009 in response to Premier McGuinty's decision to exclude an increase in social assistance rates for adults in Ontario from his poverty reduction strategy.

The Put Food in the Budget campaign had two demands. The first demand was for an immediate $100-a-month increase for every adult in Ontario receiving social assistance. The second demand was that the proposed Social Assistance Review Commission recommend social assistance rates at a level that ensured a life of health and dignity.

The Social Assistance Review Commission has not addressed the inadequacy of social assistance rates. Four years after the announcement of the poverty reduction strategy a social assistance rate increase of $100 a month will not be adequate. The Put Food in the Budget campaign is therefore broadening its demands."

 

Then, of course, there's the [url=http://raisetherates.ca/?page_id=6]Raise The Rates[/url] campaign:

"Raise the Rates is a campaign to fight poverty by raising social assistance rates in Ontario. Jointly organized by the Ontario Coalition Against Poverty (OCAP), the Canadian Union of Public Employees (CUPE) Ontario, Sudbury Coalition Against Poverty (S-CAP), Kingston Coalition Against Poverty (K-CAP), Poverty Makes Us Sick Waterloo Region, Poverty Makes Us Sick Ottawa, OPSEU and other grassroots anti-poverty organizers and trade union allies from across Ontario. We are a growing movement united in fighting for:

• Raise Social Assistance Rates 55%: reverse the cuts, raise the rates!

• Restore Special Diet and Community Start-Up Benefits

• Stop the Attack on Disability Benefits

• Living wage for all: Raise the Minimum wage above poverty wages"

The point is that regardless of the opinions that these groups have on other issues, that does not mean that the $14 campaign focusses on anything but very small area of economic activity that has the least structural impact on capitalist economic relations. 

I certainly don't oppose it. Nor does it mean that it is a hill that I would die on as if the minimum wage itself is the be all and end all of a "socialist program."

onlinediscountanvils wrote:
Thanks for posting, epaulo13. It's nice to see that some people are taking the issue of poverty in Ontario seriously - even if none of the parties are.

Your remark misses the mark on several key points. The main one being that a higher minimum wage does nothing for all kinds of low income people, and only supports the "respectable" working poor, and not the "untouchables". A deeper analysis shows that support for social infrastructure, such as transit, or increased social asssitance has much broader impact.

I happen to support, a 20 hour work week at a livable wage, OW and ODSP at $2400 a month, and state ownership of the commanding heights of the economy. That doesn't mean that if Horwath doesn't support any one of those things I am going to vote for privatiztaion of Ontario Hydro, the LCBO, and miniscule raises in the social assistance rates, and claim its more progressive than the NDP plan, apparently out of spite.

Rokossovsky

Unionist wrote:

Good posts, epaulo, as usual. But take note (as you know) that some people consider "the movement" to be some non-existent joke which merely interferes with the cosmetic packaging of a party at election time. It really represents two incompatible world outlooks. That's why a Liberal like Horwath can be presented as anti-Liberal. And her election to power as being the only road to salvation.

Nice drive by. Why don't you keep on going, if you are not going to, and I quote: "read the f'ing policy and participate in the debate... ... The rule is against personal attacks." 

Wilf Day

PrairieDemocrat15 wrote:
The definition of the "north" includes the Barrie, Simcoe, Nippising, and Muskoka areas, so the NDP shouldn't do as well overall as they do further north.

Pollsters using area codes instead of real regions should be ashamed of themselves. Calling "705" the "North" is lunacy. It adds about seven present ridings to the ten actually northern ridings: Simcoe-Grey, Barrie, Simcoe North, Parry Sound--Muskoka, Haliburton--Kawartha Lakes--Brock, Peterborough, and parts of York-Simcoe and Northumberland. And by the populations (2011 census) the Barrie area gets a new riding, while the North deserves only eight, so it's really eight and eight: half of the "705" is not in the North at all.

Rokossovsky

takeitslowly wrote:

well from a union...of course..but...maybe a more neutral source would help, but thanks anyways, shared on facebook

If you mean by neutral source the mainstream press, as far as I can tell the mainstreem press are not reporting the main issues of the campaign as far as I can tell: Privatization, asset sales, and outsourcing of labour.

Completely not on the radar anywhere.

Detailed study of budget by OPSEU: The Ontario Budget and the 2014 election

Quote:
With $626 billion in cash, Canada’s corporations are hungry for investment opportunities. And no part of the economy offers greater promise of steady profits than public services, set up and paid for with public dollars. That is why, in the last decade, Ontario has become “a global leader in public-private partnerships,” the Budget said. “The Province uses Alternative Financing and Procurement (AFP), a made-in-Ontario, public-private partnership model, to consistently deliver valuable public infrastructure on time and on budget

Quote:
Yet with this Budget, the Wynne government signaled its commitment to drive ahead with “asset recycling” and move aggressively to “unlock the value of provincial assets” (163) – they even drafted a bank president, Ed Clark, to lead the unlocking. What this means was not clear in the Budget. Most likely it means selling geese that lay golden eggs – or at the very least renting out the revenues they provide in exchange for cash up front.

The Star for example (and some here) seems only interested in quoting labour sources that trash the NDP for some reason.

Rokossovsky

Ontario Budget wrote:
Chapter I: Ontario’s Decade — A 10-Year Plan for the Economy 103 Reducing Regulation for Business to Enhance Productivity Ontario is building a regulatory environment that encourages business growth.

As part of the recent Open for Business renewal initiative, Ontario is finding ways to further reduce regulatory burdens, adopt smarter regulatory practices and facilitate ongoing business-to-government connections. The government has introduced legislation that, if passed, would create a better business climate by reducing burdens for business.

Each year, ministries will identify, measure and report on at least one initiative that can help further reduce the regulatory burden on businesses. Through this initiative, the government will help stakeholders save millions of hours in time and $100 million in costs by 2016–17. The government is committed to reducing the regulatory burden while protecting public safety.

A smart and targeted effort at red tape reduction will ensure a better business climate without putting public safety at risk. This work follows the government’s achievement of eliminating 80,000 regulatory burdens or 17 per cent of red tape since 2008.

Mike Harris Tories? Nope Kathleen Wynne Liberals.

Remember the "Ontario is Open for Business" slogan?

Rokossovsky

Ontario Budget on "Unlocking the Value of Provincial Assets wrote:

The Province’s valuable assets include large and complex Government Business Enterprises (GBEs) — such as the LCBO, Hydro One and OPG. To identify opportunities to optimize the full value and performance of these core assets, the government will launch an in‐depth review process.

...cut...

The Council has been given a mandate to maximize the value of these GBEs to the Province, including such measures as efficient governance, growth strategies, corporate reorganization, mergers, acquisitions and public‐private partnerships.

Examples given of "asset recycling globally" are given:

Quote:

In 2014, the Australian government announced a plan to sell $130 billion (Australian dollars) in government assets and use the proceeds to invest in new infrastructure projects, potentially including a new International Airport in Sydney, that would create jobs and grow the economy.

In 2010, the United Kingdom sold the high-speed train that connects London to the Chunnel for £2.1 billion. The Ontario Municipal Employees Retirement System (OMERS) and Ontario Teachers’ Pension Plan (OTPP) were the successful bidders on the 30-year concession to operate the rail line. The U.K. government has since made significant investments in transportation infrastructure including the Crossrail — a new subway line in London that is the largest project currently underway in Europe.

In 2013, the United Kingdom conducted an initial public offering of the British Royal Mail, raising almost £2 billion for the British government.

 

 

Rokossovsky

 

PrairieDemocrat15 wrote:

Rokossovsky wrote:

epaulo13 wrote:

..one of the reason that ontario is facing possible catastrophe coming from this election is that the ndp didn't consult. it made it's decision in an election chamber based on stats and possibilities. it very well knew what risks they were forcing on the peoples of ontario. maybe even counting on the fact that if enough people where scared they would vote ndp. our lives are being fucked with and our lives and the lives of our are to important to be left in their hands. it's a matter of survival on many many levels.

Come on. One minute you are talking about how elections are meaningless exercizes, and now running scared of a direct confrontation iwth the forces of the right.

It's hard to tell where you stand. Fact is that the threat from the right might even have been greater at the end of the election cycle, next year.

There was going to ba an election next year, one way or the other. And conditions could have been worse.

Can't go on backing down, based on the fantasy that somehow if we cave in enough to Liberal governance, we can play politics and prevent the Tories from getting in. What no one is talking about is the fact that the reason the Tories are sounding so crazy now, is because all of their more reasonable policies have already been absorbed by the Liberals.

Full privatization of Hydro was a Tory idea up until about a year ago. The Liberals are promoting it now.

I am glad the NDP opposed this austerity budget. It was the right thing to do. Austerity should be opposed.

The Liberals support the full privatization of Hydro One and OPG? Show me the evidence (the review of Crown assests doesn't count). Also, although Hudak is no longer talking about the total privatization of OPG and Hydro One, the white paper that initally called for such a move is still on the PC website and Hudak's official 2014 platform advocates "opening up" Hydro One, OPG, and the LCBO to investment from Ontario pension funds (does anyone else find it hypocritical that OMERS has been the biggest beneficiary of privatization in Ontario in recent years?).

Both the Liberals and the Conservatives are a threat to public power, but the latter are a far greater and more immediate threat.

TD Bank chief to ‘optimize’ LCBO, Hydro One and Ontario Power

Tory MPP Vic Fedeli (Nipissing) wrote:

“When we first proposed doing this two years ago, the Liberals opposed it,” said Fedeli, mocking the initiative as “another panel they’ll ignore.”

And...

Hydro asset sales could generate $10 billion

Quote:
“So you’ve got what, $10 billion of stuff there you could sell, looking at Hydro One plus the nuclear. And they still own Niagara Falls.”

People of Ontario get to keep Niagra Falls, isn't that nice?

for greater context wrote:
But gently nudging open the door to such policies this spring could indicate what will have to happen if the Liberals somehow hold on to power past the next campaign, which looks increasingly likely to be held in the coming months. Having backed away from new gasoline, sales or personal taxes, Ms. Wynne would have only so many options to fund the infrastructure those new “revenue tools” were once supposed to cover.

The subtext of Mr. Sousa’s speech next week, in other words, will likely be that some relatively easy and uncontroversial asset sales might help to get shovels in the ground on a few preferred projects; to get much built will require tougher choices the government is not prepared to make yet.

In short: Have mandate will travel.

"Does anyone else find it hypocritical that OMERS has been the biggest beneficiary of privatization in Ontario in recent years?"

No. Why?

josh

Debater wrote:

Right now it is a race between Wynne & Hudak, and hopefully Horwath will not spiit the vote and elect the Conservatives the way the NDP did federally for Harper in 2011.

As I recall, it was the Liberals who were the spoilers in that race.

Orangutan

onlinediscountanvils wrote:

Just to address the ridiculous...

"The Campaign to Raise the Minimum Wage is coordinated by ACORN, Freedom 90, Mennonite New Life Centre, OCAP, Ontario Campaign 2000, Parkdale Community Legal Services, Put Food in the Budget, Social Planning Toronto, Toronto and York Region Labour Council and the Workers’ Action Centre." http://raisetheminimumwage.ca

 

ACORN:

[url=http://rabble.ca/podcasts/shows/john-bonnar-audio-blog/2013/02/ottawa-ac... ACORN demands a stop to the ODSP income clawback[/url]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QV5LpWdY7Y]Ottawa Acorn- Stop the income clawback for ODSP OW recipients-MPP Yasir Naqvi's Office[/url]

 

[url=http://www.freedom90.ca/index.html]Freedom 90[/url]: "The Government of Ontario must ensure that social assistance and minimum wage levels are sufficient for everyone to have adequate housing and to buy their own food."

"We will continue until the province of Ontario specifically, recognizes that it can no longer continue to turn a blind eye to the deep poverty that individuals and families on OW and ODSP are confined to, living on social assistance rates 60% below the poverty line."

 

[url=http://mnlct.org/engagement/action/]Mennonite New Life Centre[/url]: "All Ontarians deserve good living standards. Parents deserve the resources they need to raise their children in safety and love – free of the fear and stigma of poverty. Specifics include:

  • Close the gap between life on social assistance and moving out of poverty.
  • Make it easier for people with disabilities to get access to theOntarioDisability Support Program (ODSP).
  • Enrich the Ontario Child Benefit." - 25 in 5 Network for Poverty Reduction

 

[url=http://ocap.ca/files/history%20of%20ocap.pdf]OCAP[/url]: "OCAP is a direct-action anti-poverty organization based in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. We mount campaigns against regressive government policies as they affect poor and working people. In addition, we provide direct-action advocacy for individuals against welfare and ODSP, public housing and others who deny poor people what they are entitled to. We believe in the power of people to organize themselves.

We believe in the power of resistance."

 

[url=http://www.campaign2000.ca/Ontario/OntC2000PovertyReductionStrategyOct20... Campaign 2000[/url]: "Increasing the shamefully low social assistance rates of Ontario’s 892,099 recipientsv is long overdue as current rates do not even cover food, housing and clothing costs.vi As of December 2012, a single parent on Ontario Works (OW) with one young child received $940 a month plus a maximum annual Ontario Child Benefit (OCB) of $92vii - even with provincial and federal child benefits and tax credits included, these families lived $9,116 below the LIM.

Ontario needs positive social assistance reform that promotes equity and justice. The next poverty reduction strategy must stipulate that reforms to social assistance should only be made if they have the effect of reducing poverty. And there should be no “winners and losers” – no one on social assistance should end up with less money as a result of any reform. It should also outline the investments that will be made in reforming the system, as the only real way to make meaningful, positive change is to invest in improvements. If the right reforms and investments are made now, savings will come later. A holistic positive reform of social assistance will also require improving the many other services people need. Employment supports and services, child care services, mental health supports and services, and many others need to be improved.

The social assistance system has been eroded over the past twenty years. Rates are dangerously low and well below the reality of the cost of living in Ontario. Ontario Works benefits for a single person would have to increase by 56% and the Ontario Disability Support Program by 22% to have the same purchasing power as they had in 1993. We must invest in the health and dignity of people on OW and ODSP, and not continue to allow their incomes to erode." - Ontario Poverty Reduction Strategy Submission; October 4, 2013

 

[url=http://www.parkdalelegal.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&i... Community Legal Services[/url]: "PCLS is participating in a province-wide coalition for the revocation of the clawback of the National Child Benefit Supplement from families receiving social assistance."

 

[url=http://putfoodinthebudget.ca/about_us/about_us.html]Put Food in the Budget[/url]: "The Put Food in the Budget campaign began in January 2009 in response to Premier McGuinty's decision to exclude an increase in social assistance rates for adults in Ontario from his poverty reduction strategy.

The Put Food in the Budget campaign had two demands. The first demand was for an immediate $100-a-month increase for every adult in Ontario receiving social assistance. The second demand was that the proposed Social Assistance Review Commission recommend social assistance rates at a level that ensured a life of health and dignity.

The Social Assistance Review Commission has not addressed the inadequacy of social assistance rates. Four years after the announcement of the poverty reduction strategy a social assistance rate increase of $100 a month will not be adequate. The Put Food in the Budget campaign is therefore broadening its demands."

 

Then, of course, there's the [url=http://raisetherates.ca/?page_id=6]Raise The Rates[/url] campaign:

"Raise the Rates is a campaign to fight poverty by raising social assistance rates in Ontario. Jointly organized by the Ontario Coalition Against Poverty (OCAP), the Canadian Union of Public Employees (CUPE) Ontario, Sudbury Coalition Against Poverty (S-CAP), Kingston Coalition Against Poverty (K-CAP), Poverty Makes Us Sick Waterloo Region, Poverty Makes Us Sick Ottawa, OPSEU and other grassroots anti-poverty organizers and trade union allies from across Ontario. We are a growing movement united in fighting for:

• Raise Social Assistance Rates 55%: reverse the cuts, raise the rates!

• Restore Special Diet and Community Start-Up Benefits

• Stop the Attack on Disability Benefits

• Living wage for all: Raise the Minimum wage above poverty wages"

The Green Party (both provincially and federally) is proposing about a Guaranteed Livable Income/Guaranteed Annual Income.  

http://www.gpo.ca/blog/2014-03-28/recommendations-provincial-2014-budget

Horwath has been invisible in the media on the poverty issue thus far.  I think this will turn out to be a big mistake for the NDP and could cost them one or more seats in Toronto.  

Aristotleded24

Rokossovsky wrote:
The only way to address "poverty" is to increase the minimum wage?

I am still having trouble grasping this logic.

I thought that directing resources to the social support infrastructure, supported the poor, who need daycare for their children, accessible recreation facilities and cheap reliable transit?

Nearly every CCPA article I've ever read arguing for a minimum wage increase has also mentioned that minimum wage is but one tool, that there are other things that must happen such as affordable housing.

Rokossovsky

Orangutan wrote:

onlinediscountanvils wrote:

Just to address the ridiculous...

"The Campaign to Raise the Minimum Wage is coordinated by ACORN, Freedom 90, Mennonite New Life Centre, OCAP, Ontario Campaign 2000, Parkdale Community Legal Services, Put Food in the Budget, Social Planning Toronto, Toronto and York Region Labour Council and the Workers’ Action Centre." http://raisetheminimumwage.ca

 

ACORN:

[url=http://rabble.ca/podcasts/shows/john-bonnar-audio-blog/2013/02/ottawa-ac... ACORN demands a stop to the ODSP income clawback[/url]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QV5LpWdY7Y]Ottawa Acorn- Stop the income clawback for ODSP OW recipients-MPP Yasir Naqvi's Office[/url]

 

[url=http://www.freedom90.ca/index.html]Freedom 90[/url]: "The Government of Ontario must ensure that social assistance and minimum wage levels are sufficient for everyone to have adequate housing and to buy their own food."

"We will continue until the province of Ontario specifically, recognizes that it can no longer continue to turn a blind eye to the deep poverty that individuals and families on OW and ODSP are confined to, living on social assistance rates 60% below the poverty line."

 

[url=http://mnlct.org/engagement/action/]Mennonite New Life Centre[/url]: "All Ontarians deserve good living standards. Parents deserve the resources they need to raise their children in safety and love – free of the fear and stigma of poverty. Specifics include:

  • Close the gap between life on social assistance and moving out of poverty.
  • Make it easier for people with disabilities to get access to theOntarioDisability Support Program (ODSP).
  • Enrich the Ontario Child Benefit." - 25 in 5 Network for Poverty Reduction

 

[url=http://ocap.ca/files/history%20of%20ocap.pdf]OCAP[/url]: "OCAP is a direct-action anti-poverty organization based in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. We mount campaigns against regressive government policies as they affect poor and working people. In addition, we provide direct-action advocacy for individuals against welfare and ODSP, public housing and others who deny poor people what they are entitled to. We believe in the power of people to organize themselves.

We believe in the power of resistance."

 

[url=http://www.campaign2000.ca/Ontario/OntC2000PovertyReductionStrategyOct20... Campaign 2000[/url]: "Increasing the shamefully low social assistance rates of Ontario’s 892,099 recipientsv is long overdue as current rates do not even cover food, housing and clothing costs.vi As of December 2012, a single parent on Ontario Works (OW) with one young child received $940 a month plus a maximum annual Ontario Child Benefit (OCB) of $92vii - even with provincial and federal child benefits and tax credits included, these families lived $9,116 below the LIM.

Ontario needs positive social assistance reform that promotes equity and justice. The next poverty reduction strategy must stipulate that reforms to social assistance should only be made if they have the effect of reducing poverty. And there should be no “winners and losers” – no one on social assistance should end up with less money as a result of any reform. It should also outline the investments that will be made in reforming the system, as the only real way to make meaningful, positive change is to invest in improvements. If the right reforms and investments are made now, savings will come later. A holistic positive reform of social assistance will also require improving the many other services people need. Employment supports and services, child care services, mental health supports and services, and many others need to be improved.

The social assistance system has been eroded over the past twenty years. Rates are dangerously low and well below the reality of the cost of living in Ontario. Ontario Works benefits for a single person would have to increase by 56% and the Ontario Disability Support Program by 22% to have the same purchasing power as they had in 1993. We must invest in the health and dignity of people on OW and ODSP, and not continue to allow their incomes to erode." - Ontario Poverty Reduction Strategy Submission; October 4, 2013

 

[url=http://www.parkdalelegal.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&i... Community Legal Services[/url]: "PCLS is participating in a province-wide coalition for the revocation of the clawback of the National Child Benefit Supplement from families receiving social assistance."

 

[url=http://putfoodinthebudget.ca/about_us/about_us.html]Put Food in the Budget[/url]: "The Put Food in the Budget campaign began in January 2009 in response to Premier McGuinty's decision to exclude an increase in social assistance rates for adults in Ontario from his poverty reduction strategy.

The Put Food in the Budget campaign had two demands. The first demand was for an immediate $100-a-month increase for every adult in Ontario receiving social assistance. The second demand was that the proposed Social Assistance Review Commission recommend social assistance rates at a level that ensured a life of health and dignity.

The Social Assistance Review Commission has not addressed the inadequacy of social assistance rates. Four years after the announcement of the poverty reduction strategy a social assistance rate increase of $100 a month will not be adequate. The Put Food in the Budget campaign is therefore broadening its demands."

 

Then, of course, there's the [url=http://raisetherates.ca/?page_id=6]Raise The Rates[/url] campaign:

"Raise the Rates is a campaign to fight poverty by raising social assistance rates in Ontario. Jointly organized by the Ontario Coalition Against Poverty (OCAP), the Canadian Union of Public Employees (CUPE) Ontario, Sudbury Coalition Against Poverty (S-CAP), Kingston Coalition Against Poverty (K-CAP), Poverty Makes Us Sick Waterloo Region, Poverty Makes Us Sick Ottawa, OPSEU and other grassroots anti-poverty organizers and trade union allies from across Ontario. We are a growing movement united in fighting for:

• Raise Social Assistance Rates 55%: reverse the cuts, raise the rates!

• Restore Special Diet and Community Start-Up Benefits

• Stop the Attack on Disability Benefits

• Living wage for all: Raise the Minimum wage above poverty wages"

The Green Party (both provincially and federally) is proposing about a Guaranteed Livable Income/Guaranteed Annual Income.  

http://www.gpo.ca/blog/2014-03-28/recommendations-provincial-2014-budget

Horwath has been invisible in the media on the poverty issue thus far.  I think this will turn out to be a big mistake for the NDP and could cost them one or more seats in Toronto.  

You mean that increasing funding to daycares and creating a slush fund for communities to re-purpose schools to community activities so that they don't have to be closed, and securing revenue from corporate taxation to fund transit infrastrucure, as opposed to sales of government services and assets, don't count as "poverty" issues?

The only way to address "poverty" is to increase the minimum wage?

I am still having trouble grasping this logic.

I thought that directing resources to the social support infrastructure, supported the poor, who need daycare for their children, accessible recreation facilities and cheap reliable transit?

Rokossovsky

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Rokossovsky wrote:
The only way to address "poverty" is to increase the minimum wage?

I am still having trouble grasping this logic.

I thought that directing resources to the social support infrastructure, supported the poor, who need daycare for their children, accessible recreation facilities and cheap reliable transit?

Nearly every CCPA article I've ever read arguing for a minimum wage increase has also mentioned that minimum wage is but one tool, that there are other things that must happen such as affordable housing.

Exactly. However, the way it is being played here is that the minimum wage issue is the holy grail of "progressive" politics. It's absurd. We need to look at a composite of structural changes, not simply attach ourselves to a single issue.

The NDP position on the minimum wage is as bad as the Liberals, however the composite of its program is more progressive, especially since it seems apparent that the Liberals are intent on attacking middle income unionized workers through outsourcing, and privatizating public assets, through P3s, which like so many of these P3 deals are going to unhinge the government budget, and make it difficult for the government to deliver on its social commitments.

onlinediscountanvils

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Rokossovsky wrote:
The only way to address "poverty" is to increase the minimum wage?

I am still having trouble grasping this logic.

I thought that directing resources to the social support infrastructure, supported the poor, who need daycare for their children, accessible recreation facilities and cheap reliable transit?

Nearly every CCPA article I've ever read arguing for a minimum wage increase has also mentioned that minimum wage is but one tool, that there are other things that must happen such as affordable housing.

That's right.

Of course, I don't recall anyone here arguing that increasing the minimum wage is the only way to address poverty.

Unionist

True, oda. But if repeated often enough, I'll bet we'll all start recalling it that way.

onlinediscountanvils

flagged

Pogo Pogo's picture

I wish I could flag everytime I was caught contradicting myself.

adma

A lot of this recent thread content would more properly belong in the general election thread than the polling thread, no?

Rokossovsky

adma wrote:

A lot of this recent thread content would more properly belong in the general election thread than the polling thread, no?

True!

Rokossovsky

onlinediscountanvils wrote:

 

Of course, I don't recall anyone here arguing that increasing the minimum wage is the only way to address poverty.

onlinediscountanvils wrote:

epaulo13 wrote:
Video: Young workers call for $14 minimum wage in Ontario

video

On May 14, students and young workers set up an obstacle course on the lawn of Queen's Park to demonstrate the hurdles students face juggling rising tuition fees and low-wage work. The event is part of the ongoing campaign calling on party leaders and candidates to support a $14 minimum wage in Ontario.

">http://rabble.ca/rabbletv/program-guide/2014/05/best-net/video-young-wor...

Thanks for posting, epaulo13. It's nice to see that some people are taking the issue of poverty in Ontario seriously - even if none of the parties are.

Actually you are arguing precisely that unless a party supports the $14 minimum wage that they are not taking poverty "seriously".

That much is plain.

onlinediscountanvils

Pogo wrote:
I wish I could flag everytime I was caught contradicting myself.

You can, but I'm not sure what purpose it would serve.

You can also flag when someone repeatedly tries to bait you by lying about what you've said.

Rokossovsky

onlinediscountanvils wrote:

Pogo wrote:
I wish I could flag everytime I was caught contradicting myself.

You can, but I'm not sure what purpose it would serve.

You can also flag when someone repeatedly tries to bait you by lying about what you've said.

Oh. Well I sincerely appologize if you don't think that the NDP's failure to endorse a $14 an hour minimum wage indicates that they are not serious about poverty in Ontario.

PrairieDemocrat15

Rokossovsky wrote:

 

"Does anyone else find it hypocritical that OMERS has been the biggest beneficiary of privatization in Ontario in recent years?"

No. Why?

A penson fund for unionized municipal employees privatizing municipal services and thus taking jobs away from municipal workers doesn't sound a little hypocritical to you? Not to mention self-defeating. So much for solidarity.

Rokossovsky

PrairieDemocrat15 wrote:

Rokossovsky wrote:

 

"Does anyone else find it hypocritical that OMERS has been the biggest beneficiary of privatization in Ontario in recent years?"

No. Why?

A penson fund for unionized municipal employees privatizing municipal services and thus taking jobs away from municipal workers doesn't sound a little hypocritical to you? Not to mention self-defeating. So much for solidarity.

Not at all since the pension funds are not controlled by the unions, and therefore their members, the fact that the balance of power on the board of OTTP, and the constitution of the fund disallows "political" decision making means that the province can basically direct the fund to enter into any scam they like.

I don't know about OMERS structure, specifically but I have investigated OTTP, and other than send letters the union exec and their members can do nothing about the board's decisions on investment. Hence you have teachers sharing picket duty with locked out Cadillac Fairview employees, while their pension plan is putting the boots to them.

The government, as you know is a shared contributor to these funds, and as such that justifies its control over their activities.

NorthReport

Updated

The PCs are ahead.

At this point the right-wing Liberal strategy is to drive down the NDP vote with their right-wing Liberal media and right-wing Liberal pollster crews, to try and make it appear that the right-wing Liberals are doing well. 

The right-wing Liberals are not doing well.

It is all right-wing Liberal smoke and mirrors as usual.

Right wing Liberals always campaign on the left and govern on the right.

Do a little research into the pollsters and find out their political connections - you will be amazed at what you will discover. 

And remember its garbage in = garbage out for the aggregators.

If you have several polls in the aggregator mix connected with one party who cares if as they claim they are averaging a group of polls - their stats are mostly meaningless.

A couple of good pollsters missing from the mix, with good track records are Angus Reid / Vision Critical and Environics . Although not current, I have added of what appears to be Environics most recent Ontario polls at trhe end.

Date / Pollster / PCs / Libs / NDP / Connections

2011 / GE / 35% / 38% / 23%

May 15 / EKOS / 30% / 37% / 21% / Liberal / Graves / Disregard

May 14 / Ipsos Reid / 37% / 30% / 24% / Leans a bit Right / Bricker / Fairly Reliable

May 13 / Forum / 33% / 38% / 21% / Liberal or Flake / Bozinoff / Disregard

May 8 / Ipsos Reid / 35% / 31% / 28% / Leans a bit Right / Bricker / Fairly Reliable

May 6 / Innov / 33% / 39% / 20% / Liberal  / Lyle / Disregard

May 5 / Oracle / 42% / 31% / 25% /  PCs / 

May 3 / Forum / 38% / 33% / 22% /   / Liberal or Flake/ Bozinoff / Disregard

May 2 / Legislature Dissolved

May 1 / EKOS / 35% / 38% / 23% / Liberal / Graves  / Disregard

Apr / Oracle / 34% / 35% / 24% / PCs / 

Apr / Ipsos Reid / 37% / 32% / 27% / Leans a bit Right / Bricker / Fairly Reliable

Apr / Nanos / 36% / 36% / 22% /  / Right-Wing / Nanos / 

Apr / EKOS / 27% / 32% / 29% / Liberal / Graves / Disregard

----------------------------

Jun '12 / Environics / 37% / 25% / 28%

Apr '12 / Environics / 37% / 27% / 30%

--------------------------

17,490

 

josh

Disregard:  Any polls showing the Liberals doing well.

Cite as gospel:  Any polls showing the Liberals doing poorly or the Conservatives in the lead.

Rinse.  Repeat.

 

 

NorthReport

When you have pollsters connected in abundance with the right-wing Liberals why bother wasting one second on those polls?

josh wrote:

Disregard:  Any polls showing the Liberals doing well.

Cite as gospel:  Any polls showing the Liberals doing poorly or the Conservatives in the lead.

Rinse.  Repeat.

 

 

NorthReport

Link

 

NorthReport

Meanwhile josh, back in the real world......

Link

Well, the first two weeks of the Ontario campaign fully contradicts Allan Gregg’s wisdom. Hudak is still too stiff and too awkward on the hustings. But, if the polling firm Ipsos is to be believed, he is way, way ahead.

According to the last couple of Ipsos polls, Hudak’s support is growing – while that of his Liberal and New Democrat rivals is shrinking, in some places dramatically. The latest Ipsos offering pegs Hudak’s party at 39%, with the governing Liberals almost a full 10 points back – and the New Democrats even further behind, at 24%. If Tim Hudak is still stiff, awkward and therefore inauthentic, why is that happening?

Because of the other part of Gregg’s observation, that’s why. The part about “direct and honest engagement of difficult subject matter that has the potential to cause media controversy.” And that is precisely what Hudak has done, with his announced plan to cut 100,000 positions in the broader Ontario public service.

Given the fact that many of those who will be losing their jobs are teachers – and given that lots of public services will disappear, too – Hudak’s plan has attracted no small amount of criticism. Ontario Liberal Leader Kathleen Wynne, who is advised by the same inept gang who cooked up Paul Martin’s “soldiers in our streets” ads in the 2006 federal campaign, has been most critical. She has declared that Hudak’s plan will cause a “recession”– and, while in Walkerton, warned of the consequences of deep job cuts.

Hudak, meanwhile, remains unfazed and well ahead. He may never be seen as the most “authentic” politician, true. But he’s the one presently engaged in “direct and honest engagement of difficult subject matter that has the potential to cause media controversy.”

And he’s winning because of it.

- See more at: http://warrenkinsella.com/2014/05/in-tuesdays-sun-how-a-loser-is-winning...

 

josh

You mean, the get even world?  Because that's the only world Kinsella operates in. 

That's the best you can do?  Kinsella?  In your continued effort to cheerlead for a Hudak victory.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Rokofossky wrote:
Actually you are arguing precisely that unless a party supports the $14 minimum wage that they are not taking poverty "seriously". 

That much is plain.

Ugh. This is such an unproductive comment and the other similar ones (on this page, let alone in this thread) in which you lampoon what someone is saying in order to make some sort of a cheap "gotcha" point. Please stop doing it. This is about discussion, not scoring points.

 

On that note, since this polling thread is more than two years old and has ceased to be about polling, I'm closing it. Please open a new polling thread to close out the election. Thanks!

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