'Socialism' just fine with Ontario NDP leader

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Freedom 55

thanks wrote:

It really drains me, having to keep coming back here to say this.  That energy, along with the energies of many others, could be released for good work if the blockage noted is removed.

I keep hoping in good hope, only to be repeatedly disappointed, even after two and a half years of writing here.  Please understand if i don't return again for a while

 

Shit. I simply had no idea what kind of effect we were having on you. My God! Why didn't you say something sooner.

 

For the record:

Freedom 55 wrote:

I do not accept human rights abuses done in the name of [your] ideology in the past.

 

I hope my words will bring some comfort and peace to your haggard life.

Fear not - of course I will understand if we do not see you here for a while. Wounds such as yours take time to heal. I understand perfectly.

Godspeed, you precious, delicate soul.

Aristotleded24

thanks wrote:
The groups which sponsor rabble, and all babblers, are in association with some who promote Leninism, therefore everyone at babble/rabble has a responsibility to help educate Leninists and eachother.

Talking points from Fox News much?

knownothing knownothing's picture

There is no ideology in history that didn't have casualties associated with it.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

thanks wrote:

It really drains me, having to keep coming back here to say this.

Oh, so you're getting sick and tired of it, too? Glad to hear that.

Quote:
Please understand if i don't return again for a while...

Try to imagine my disappointment.

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

M. Spector wrote:

thanks wrote:

It really drains me, having to keep coming back here to say this.

Oh, so you're getting sick and tired of it, too? Glad to hear that.

Quote:
Please understand if i don't return again for a while...

Try to imagine my disappointment.

Laughing Laughing

thanks

"Show me the unbiased economic and social data, then I will consider your perspective." Part of the social data is mass murder, torture, and rape.  It cannot be swept under the rug.  Is babble a rug?  Babble, and rabble, are supported by unions and other groups, and individuals who choose to be associated with Leninists.  Lenin was responsible for mass murder, torture and rape.  A simple 'we do not accept human rights abuses done in the name of socialism' would help. 

Similarly those who call themselves Conservatives, Liberals, anarchists, or whatever other ideology, can simply say, 'we do not accept human rights abuses done in the name of...'.  Mudslinging doesn't need to be the focus.   A simple statement clears the air somewhat and allows space to consider input.  Otherwise listeners/readers are blocked.

The new federal NDP Socialist Caucus website, in the 'About' section or its Manifesto, ought to state simply that it does not accept human rights abuses done in the name of socialism.  Otherwise the language sounds like the language of Soviets, while they were massacring, torturing, raping, starving and deporting millions of people.  I couldn't read all the specific subheadings because in the introductory sections a rejection of human rights abuses done in the name of socialism was missing.

I have tried to assume the best of modern 'communists' and 'socialists', in whichever groups they currently inhabit, however now I do not believe it's enough.  Polarizations amongst people, in Ontario, in Canada, around the world, are becoming more extreme.  Aggressive or reactionary behaviour could be reduced if individuals, groups, unions, parties, could simply say they reject human rights abuses done in the name of affiliates in the past.

 

It really drains me, having to keep coming back here to say this.  That energy, along with the energies of many others, could be released for good work if the blockage noted is removed.

I keep hoping in good hope, only to be repeatedly disappointed, even after two and a half years of writing here.   please say and write, as groups and individuals, that you do not accept human rights abuses done in the name of [your] ideology in the past. 

thanks.

 

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Thanks you went in to post 50 to rewrite it and didn't note the edit. so what did you change?

thanks

you can't simply blame others shortcomings and deny your own.

here, an example:

I've quoted the Bible before, however I do not agree with the human rights abuses done in the name of Christianity, past or present.

comparing degrees of mass murder, torture etc. is ridiculous.  denial of historic abuses is to ignore abuses is to perpetuate injustice. So all your fine words of 'social justice' blah blah are questionable, eroded, undermined, revealing a gaping disconnect, sending folks to reactionary oblivion.  I came back here to say i was going to disconnect again from participating in the campaigns of associated groups and unions as well.  A good example of reaction.  However  you people here, and rabble sponsors and writers and related networks would be responsible in part for reaction, for non-participation, because of your stubborn, irrational, refusal to simply say 'we do not accept historic human rights abuses done in the name of socialism.'.

Patronizing emotional babying is not required.  Nor twisted versions throwing back "[your]" ideology. 

All groups, unions, parties, individuals, etc. linked in any way with socialist groups or others need to say, " we do not accept human rights abuses done in the past or present by 'socialists' or capitalists."

 

 

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Now you have rewritten post # 53.

just so you know it is not really appropriate to change your posts. The preferred method is to clarify in a subsequent post. That way other peoples posts don't sound off the wall when they have replied to things that no longer appear in the thread.

thanks

i got rid of 'please understand if i don't show up for a while'.

then i changed 'socialist, capitalist, or other' to 'socialist or capitalist' because its not clear what 'other' might be- either people have control over capital or they don't.

anyway, i came back here to report, as you probably heard anyway, i'll save you the trouble of translating,

i told my mom about my dilemma, that many activist groups which do good work, often are found in the same space as Leninists, and that i was concerned the NDP didn't do well out west because it was known to harbour socialists.  my mom didn't have the same angst as i did.  she said that 'sometimes you have to compromise', and thought the NDP didn't do so well out west because Harper was from there.  Dad thought it was because the Reform had been stronger out west before Harper.  mom didn't think people cared too much about Lenin these days, while dad said, 'wait and see' before talking about it or getting all worked up. 

for me it still seems like a big disconnect.  it would be so much easier to deal with if those who are affiliated in any way with Leninists say they don't agree with the human rights abuses of his regime.

 

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Well my mommy and daddy are dead and buried so I just have to form my own opinions.  Maybe you should read some history of the British occupation of India instead of just reading about Russia.  Then you could have angst about that as well.  

Capitalists have murdered more people than socialists and presently they are the dominant ideology killing civilians in numerous places in the world.  How many children has NATO murdered today would be a far more productive place to put your thoughts.

Erik Redburn

thanks wrote:

 

All groups, unions, parties, individuals, etc. linked in any way with socialist groups or others need to say, " we do not accept human rights abuses done in the past or present by 'socialists' or capitalists."

 

 

Oh yes, why should ALL unions, parties, individuals (on the left) have to make aa statement like that?  And to who?   Like, are ALL socialists(leftists) somehow guilty by association?  And should everyone who proclaims supposed 'entrepreneurial' values be forced to make the same for their long history of anti-social (and hypocritical, given the amount of public $subsidies they get) actions? 

I hate it when I make an argument one place and someone comes up behind me and runs one part of it all the way into the opposite idiotic extreme.

Thank you, Thanks, but I believe there's already some awareness among most leftists that Stalin and Mao were indeed wrong.  One day I'd like to see similar admissions on the right about those who came before --and since.  

 

Erik Redburn

knownothing wrote:

There is no ideology in history that didn't have casualties associated with it.

 

Some more than others.  Pacifists of the Ghandian school don't generally attract or breed alot of miltarists and assassins, although the Indian/Pakistani partition led to alot of bloodshed.  I don't know if we can blame Ghandi for that though.  And some aboriginal peoples with heir own peticular belief systems have survived centuries without having to rely on inter-or intra-member violence.  Very few formed oppressive authoritarian regimes.

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

thanks wrote:

UK, American, Canadian, European, and other global investors/financiers continue to be a central problem for all peoples. 

Human rights, democratic rights, rights to water, universal health care, ecological and social rights, labour rights, indigenous rights and the Rights of Nature/Earth have been undermined as private financiers/insurers try to assert dominance through false 'trade' deals like FTA, NAFTA, CETA, other WTO and bilateral 'deals', and through hypocritical whining about 'debts' which in fact are illegitimate - accumulated through unjust military spending, wage and employment reduction, tax cuts for the rich, etc., while funnelling available monies to the bottomless pit of financiers' pockets.

Something I can agree with you on.  

thanks

incorporating input from elders in our circles is part of consensus building, no? denigrating the elderly or ignoring their opinions is not helpful.

--

"comparing degrees of mass murder, torture etc. is ridiculous.  denial of historic abuses is to ignore abuses is to perpetuate injustice."

at this particular point in time, ten thousand Canadians voted for Leninists in the last election, the NDP made no gains on the prairies, Russia has refused to release all documentation pertaining to Lenin's and Stalin's crimes, while it expects Ukraine to support its efforts including revision of history.  UK and American investors helped Stalin- gave him the technical support, including Canadian engineers, to dam the Dnipro river,  wipe out millions of peasants, and set up his farm slavery system.  Based on this mass murder, Stalin was able to sell the grain of dead peasants to the west, industrialize, continue to benefit from the resources of Ukraine at the expense of its original inhabitants, expand filthy coal and build nuclear installations like Chernobyl. 

If Lenin and Trotsky hadn't spent three years murdering, torturing, raping and deporting original inhabitants of Ukraine, and others, the Bolshevik system would not have got off the ground. 

In Ukraine, the Central Rada of Ukraine was the successor to the spring revolution of 1917, not the Provisionary Government, even admitted by Soviet scholars.  The Provisionary Government constantly undermined the Central Rada, even though the Ukrainian Central Rada was socialist in policy.  The Central Rada had to fight, politically, reactionary groups as well as the provisional government. Control by Moscow was, prior to the revolution, during, and still is, a central problem.  When Lenin overthrew the Provisionary Government in the fall of 1917, his and Trotsky's Red Army and Cheka began to slaughter Ukrainians.  So the Central Rada called for armed opposition in defense.  Even students tried to help fight, and were massacred.  The Red Army 'won.'

If Ukraine hadn't been demolished earlier by its 'neighbours' in Europe and to the east, if it hadn't suffered the brunt of WW1, if its peoples had been allowed to develop their own governance, based in millenia-old traditions of cooperation, hospitality and generosity, it could have acted as an alternative model to the dispossessed and reactionary peoples in Europe.  Fascism could have been prevented.  

The standard rhetoric of 'Red Army saved the world from Nazis' sweeps a lot of history under the rug.  Somehow it has to get disentangled.  Groups which currently accept the sponsorship of Leninist groups, which work with them in activism, or appear alongside with them in lists of sponsors, participate in the IS with them, do have a responsibility to clarify publicly that they do not accept human rights abuses conducted by Leninists in the past.   Its an opening for a more accurate picture of what went on, and alternatives, which may be more helpful for the world today. 

Anarchists then weren't terribly helpful either- assassinating members of the Moscow Central Council did nothing, except lead to more reactionary abuse by Moscow on all the people. 

Today i think, i hope, anarchists or other socialists are clear in rejecting human rights abuses.  How difficult is it to simply say that? a little clause tossed in to press statements or website preambles or in dialogue, would go a long way in clearing the air, and open the door to truths which could prevent a lot of misery, and give hope of justice and peace.

 

[edited to add 'including Canadian engineers']

[also to add,

UK, American, Canadian, European, and other global investors/financiers continue to be a central problem for all peoples. 

Human rights, democratic rights, rights to water, universal health care, ecological and social rights, labour rights, indigenous rights and the Rights of Nature/Earth have been undermined as private financiers/insurers try to assert dominance through false 'trade' deals like FTA, NAFTA, CETA, other WTO and bilateral 'deals', and through hypocritical whining about 'debts' which in fact are illegitimate - accumulated through unjust military spending, wage and employment reduction, tax cuts for the rich, etc., while funnelling available monies to the bottomless pit of financiers' pockets.

Everyone needs to say they reject human and other rights abuses, and take steps to prioritize human rights, democratic rights, ecological and social rights, labour rights, indigenous rights, and the rights of Nature/Earth.

[edit from 'anarchists and socialists' to 'anarchists or other socialists']

 

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

thanks wrote:

...ten thousand Canadians voted for Leninists in the last election...

Oooh, I am shocked, shocked!

Please enlighten us as to the atrocities and violations of human rights that these "Leninists" plan to implement if they are ever elected to Parliament. Have you ever even read their platforms?

Then compare and contrast those atrocities and human rights violations with the atrocities and violations of human rights committted by actual Canadian parliamentary governments, past and present, with the support of not ten thousand, but more like ten million Canadians.

 

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Harper of course is a sycophant for the imperial empire to the south.  A Quisling by any other name is still a Quisling.  How many people voted for his militaristic bomb the brown people for their own good campaign.

thanks

NS re: sixty-five,  I'm glad there's something we can agree on in my previous post. However it would be more helpful if you could agree with more in that post.

MS: Lenin talked a good line.  In practice he committed atrocities.  Leninists today, in Canada as far as i can see, do good work. In the past however Leninists and Communists in Canada functioned as part of the gloss, the propaganda machine, which covered and hid atrocities.  Functioning so, atrocities continued.  Its simply dishonest to pretend the atrocities of the Cheka didn't occur.  Powerful interests continue to benefit from suppression of truth, and from the polarization resulting from contemporary Leninist stubborness in admitting the truth about their namesake.  Activist groups, rabble sponsors, and members of the IS are smeared with the brush of working with Leninists, either because they do not bother to insist on honesty, or because they have failed in convincing Leninists to be honest. They continue on as if nothing was the matter.

Self-righteous denial is blatant in leftist circles, as it is in the right.

Why is it so difficult for the Communist Party of Canada (Marxist Leninist) to admit to Lenin's human rights abuses?

 

 

 

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Thanks for playing Thanks.

Tell me what to you think of NATO murdering children and other civilians as we speak in our names.  Do you speak out about that to your friends and family and make it clear that our government should get out of NATO and disengage in all our immoral wars we are involved in?

Personally I prefer to talk about the evils being done in my name and not history that has nothing to do with me or the culture I live in.

Aristotleded24

thanks wrote:
Why is it so difficult for the Communist Party of Canada (Marxist Leninist) to admit to Lenin's human rights abuses?

That is a completely separate party from the NDP.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

What's the "IS"? Do you mean the so-called "Socialist International", which has no "Leninist" parties affiliated with it at all?

And why have you chosen this thread to launch your little witch hunt?

wage zombie

thanks wrote:

Babble, and rabble, are supported by unions and other groups, and individuals who choose to be associated with Leninists.  Lenin was responsible for mass murder, torture and rape.

So Babble = Unions = Leninists = Murderers, Torturers and Rapists

Sorry, I can't take this seriously.

thanks

NS, I do, as you know, speak out about the North Atlantic Treaty Organization bombing and murdering children and civilians, and the need to stop doing that. I've also said many times that militarism wastes money, destroys the earth through DU ammunition and bombs, and destroys people seeking justice through arms trade.

You, NS, are participating in the culture of rabble and babble and Canada and the world where Leninists, still, today, are active and linked.  You, and others, have responsibility to clarify that you do not accept Lenin's human rights abuses.  Why is that so difficult for you to do?

A: Last i saw, the federal NDP was a member of the IS where Leninists function.  The federal NDP needs to clarify that it does not accept Lenin's human rights abuses.  The Ontario NDP, in choosing to use the word 'socialist', also needs to clarify that it does not accept the human rights abuses done in the name of socialism.  Anyone and everyone using the term 'socialism' or working with those who call themselves 'socialist' need to clarify that they don't accept the human rights abuses done in the  name of socialism. 

[update; The International Socialist website does not include the NDP as members, except to say, in the 'Where we stand' section, "The present system cannot be fixed or reformed as NDP and many trade union leaders say."  The IS critiques Stalin correctly, but fails to critique Lenin.  In the IS Links section, "The International Socialists belong to the  'International Socialist Tendency'" which supports a "tradition of socialist from below, the idea that workers can only emancipate themselves through their own struggles. This tradition was initiated by Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, and subsequently developed by revolutionaries such as Lenin, Leon Trotsky.."  

These Socialists, with otherwise many good words and works, also praise Lenin.

I'm glad to see the NDP isn't a member. 

At the same time, if leaders use the word 'socialist', or entertain a 'Socialist Caucus', the term ought to be clarified to reject any human rights abuses of 'socialists' of the past.

It is disappointing to see Rabble.ca and other groups which do good work allowing themselves to be linked at the IS website under 'Links'.

Everyone here has a responsibility to clarify they reject human rights abuses done in the name of 'socialism'.

 

thanks

No wg, I didn't say Babble or others which allowed themselves to be linked to the IS were murderers, torturers and rapists, I said they were dishonest.

People today need the truth, the whole truth, not inconsistent half-truths.  It is confusing, inconsistent and dishonest to associate, link and work with those who praise Lenin, a murderer, torturer and rapist, if you don't clarify that you reject Lenin's human rights abuses.

 

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

thanks wrote:

You, NS, are participating in the culture of rabble and babble and Canada and the world where Leninists, still, today, are active and linked.  You, and others, have responsibility to clarify that you do not accept Lenin's human rights abuses.  Why is that so difficult for you to do?

Quite frankly IMO that is an absurd proposition.  You are wrong I have no obligation to clarify anything I think about Lenin or any other historic figure.   I come here to discuss politics and other subjects from a left wing progressive point of view.   I see no reason to start each post with a list of people and movements I denounce.  Now if someone starts a thread extolling the virtues of the USSR I will likely step in and say something.  But that is the same as when people come here and extoll the virtues of Israel or Amerika.  

Erik Redburn

thanks wrote:

No wg, I didn't say Babble or others which allowed themselves to be linked to the IS were murderers, torturers and rapists, I said they were dishonest.

People today need the truth, the whole truth, not inconsistent half-truths.  It is confusing, inconsistent and dishonest to associate, link and work with those who praise Lenin, a murderer, torturer and rapist, if you don't clarify that you reject Lenin's human rights abuses.

 

 

Oh give me a break.  Youve been answered adequately already but continue to act in a troll like -that is dishonest-- manner yourself, and refuse to answer *others* questions in response.  Do you yourself genuflect or apologise about all the crimes committed in the name of capitalism, Christianity or Western democracy -EVERYTIME it comes up??   Do ANY political parties do this? 

And do you REALLY think the idea (not historical reality) of democracy is best served by demanding that others act in a McCarthyte/fundamentalist mnner and blackball/shun everyone who would even 'associate, link or work with' with 'communists', on the assumption tht they themselves necessarily accept everything done in its name?    In case you haven't noticed the Sovit Union is dead and communist China is no longer communist.  Its still undemocratic though, but is now widedly admired in WEstern media.  Why is that 'friend'?   Talk about double standards.

Aristotleded24

thanks wrote:
I also happen to believe that Rabble and other groups, currently listed as linked to the IS, ought to remove their link unless they praise Lenin as the IS does, or clarify distinctions on their own websites.  It is not enough to say, for babble for example, 'we are not to argue basic rights', and still link with a Lenin-honouring site.  The atrocities and fallout were too horrendous and too significant for current work of the left.

Go back to Fox News, troll.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

thanks, you are derailing this thread. Socialism and communism are part and parcel of rabble's mandate and genesis as well as babble's policy. If you don't like this, you'll have to go elsewhere, because it is not changing in the immediate future. I'm asking you not to post in this thread again.

thanks

Andrea Horwath is travelling around the province, prior to the fall election.  She hopes to garner support for the provincial NDP.  As the article in the OP noted, the word 'socialist' is not in the Ontario NDP constitution.  The Ontario NDP website uses the word "progressive".  However, the Ontario NDP constitution does explicitly say it follows the program and policy of the federal NDP.  The federal NDP has a Socialist Caucus.  Also, in the article from the OP, Horwath does try to define socialism positively, which is good, however it would also be useful if she clarified that she does not accept the human rights abuses of those who called themselves 'socialists'.  Similarly the federal NDP and/or its Socialist Caucus should also clarify that it does not accept the human rights abuses of those who called themselves 'socialist'.

I also happen to believe that Rabble and other groups, currently listed as linked to the IS, ought to remove their link unless they praise Lenin as the IS does, or clarify distinctions on their own websites.  It is not enough to say, for babble for example, 'we are not to argue basic rights', and still link with a Lenin-honouring site.  The atrocities and fallout were too horrendous and too significant for current work of the left.

From the human rights thread here; the Cheka was established under Lenin and Trotsky, whose Red Army also massacred five thousand Ukrainian civilians in Kyiv on Feb.9 1918.

"Babenko, Vira, b 1902 d 7 September 1921 in Katerynoslav.  Liason officer of the Ukrainian insurgents, responsible for liaison between the Katerynoslav district insurgent staff and the UNR government in exile in Tarnow, Poland.  After returning to Ukraine in the spring of 1921 she was seized by the Cheka and, together with insurgent staff officers, tortured to death." (Encyclopedia of Ukraine. Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies, 1985. Vol.1, p. 152.)

" Cheka...Soviet security agency confirmed by the decree of the RSFSR of 20 December, 1917...The Cheka justified its repressions and terror as the struggle 'against counterrevolution, espionage, and banditry, but 'banditry' encompassed every activity of the governments' political opponents.  The Cheka carried out the policy of the so-called Red Terror with its mass killings, executions of hostages, coercion [rape], and sadistic torture...In 1920-2 the Cheka fought Ukrainian insurgents and terrorized the peasants." ibid, p. 406/7.)

" The terror was also directed against the leaders of the anti-Soviet political parties, anti-government guerillas,etc. During the years 1919-1921 not less than 100,000 members and supporters of these groups in Ukraine were annihilated." (Ukraine, a Concise Encyclopedia, Shevchenko Scientific Society, 1963, p.804.) "...and many more were exiled to Siberia." (Ukrainian History, D. Doroshenko, Trident, 1975, p.80.)

Also, in a thread about 'socialism', babblers involved ought to clarify that they do not accept the human rights abuses of those who called themselves 'socialist' in the past.  Babblers here have failed to do so.  Babble policy says that basic human rights aren't to be fought over again and again, yet here I am having to fight the battle over.  The ongoing fight here is unjust and i need justice, for myself, and for 'socialism', because with the clarification I think socialism is full of hope.

thanks

I added a few paragraphs before i saw the intervening posts. 

perhaps the clarifications are helpful and would encourage you to reconsider.

I am not derailing the thread, if you had read the post.

Also, I thought 'communists' considered themselves 'socialists'. 

Rejection of the human rights abuses of those who called themselves 'socialists' is needed.

Not to do so is to contradict babble policy.  Human rights issues are not to be refought.

thanks

To be just to myself, I  expect babblers, Rabble, and others to clarify that they understand 'socialism' does not involve the human rights abuses of those who called themselves 'socialist'.

I'll check occasionally in the next month or so, otherwise need some justice in time expenditure.

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

We have been polite and you keep coming back with the same pile of shit.  No one here wants to dance to your tune.  Go onto the Conservative blogs and tell them they have to denounce British imperialism before they can speak.  It will prove just as productive as coming here with this very tired mime.

MegB

thanks wrote:

To be just to myself, I  expect babblers, Rabble, and others to clarify that they understand 'socialism' does not involve the human rights abuses of those who called themselves 'socialist'.

I'll check occasionally in the next month or so, otherwise need some justice in time expenditure.

Don't bother.

As Catchfire has pointed out, this is a left-wing site, with all that entails.  We do not need to explain or justify its existence or its values to you.  Your expectations are completely unrealistic, and you obviously have little understanding - and a great deal of antipathy for - socialism, communism, and babble policy.

ygtbk

thanks is correct. Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot were, Communists all, mass murderers. Is thanks not supposed to mention this because it might _embarrass_ somebody?

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Pol Pot was a communist?

ygtbk, since the politics underpinning your assertion have been discussed and dis(re)puted many times on babble, the answer to your question is obvious. Perhaps you believe the best place to discuss Lenin's alleged atrocities is in a thread about Andrea Horwath? I disagree.

Certainly repeating right-wing myths about communism and socialism in general is against babble's left-wing mandate. But what got thanks banned was repeated trolling and derailing. It had nothing to do with politesse.

Erik Redburn

Look ygtkwhatever, he was trying to link every "leftist" or "socialist" with guys like Pol Pot.  I called bullshit too.  But since you too seem to think it's not only a fair comparison but in fact MANDATORY for ALL "leftwingers" to "denounce" them everytime they speak, in a McCarthyte manner, then I'd have to ask you TOO why everyone who ever supported the Conservatives aren't apologising for all the civilians killed under Hitler, Suharto, Samoza, Pinochet...or Stephen Harper.   Well?   The refusal to answer in turn, after having already receiving several reasonable replies, was why he was treated as a troll. 

Personally I have no time for big C communists, or any other ideologue, as I have already made clear in other threads, but they are a teeny tiny fraction of the left here, unlike the literally tens of MILLIONS of militant warmongers on the right who continually infringe on our hard-won civil rights. 

And in case you haven't noticed we as a society have been under the thrall of increasingly contempuous and corrupt rightwing governments for over thirty years now.   Just to put it in proper perspective.   Communists have won government here...when?

 

Erik Redburn

I hope we can get back to the intended subject now. 

ygtbk

Catchfire wrote:

Pol Pot was a communist?

ygtbk, since the politics underpinning your assertion have been discussed and dis(re)puted many times on babble, the answer to your question is obvious. Perhaps you believe the best place to discuss Lenin's alleged atrocities is in a thread about Andrea Horwath? I disagree.

Certainly repeating right-wing myths about communism and socialism in general is against babble's left-wing mandate. But what got thanks banned was repeated trolling and derailing. It had nothing to do with politesse.

Certainly it's easier to dismiss a challenge based on historical fact as a "right-wing myth" and then ban the challenger, as compared with responding substantively. As Bertrand Russell said in another context, it has the advantage of theft over honest toil. Please continue discussing Andrea Horwath.

Erik Redburn

So you're not going to address the counter point either, ygbk?  One last time then, from a unapologtic anti-ideological leftist ---most mainstream leftists here, there, and everywhere have long rejected (re/denounced has another shading) the 'communist' experiment, as directly experienced in other parts of the world between 1917 and 1991.  Even most open Marxists reject what is commonly called "Stalinism" on the left, sometimes offering up some of the best critiques IMO.  A few diehards might still prfer to dissemble about the history, but once again, they are a very much smallr and less influntial faction than say those currently holding the United States, Britain and Canada hostage.   When our deary departed 'Friend' insisted that the mainstream NDP make mass public 'denunciations' for even 'associating' with 'socialists' he himself was displaying an unpleasant authoritarian streak.   I'm glad you took the extra time to join in. 

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Back on topic please. For the ten posts left.

ygtbk

Erik Redburn wrote:

So you're not going to address the counter point either, ygbk?  One last time then, from a unapologtic anti-ideological leftist ---most mainstream leftists here, there, and everywhere have long rejected (re/denounced has another shading) the 'communist' experiment, as directly experienced in other parts of the world between 1917 and 1991.  Even most open Marxists reject what is commonly called "Stalinism" on the left, sometimes offering up some of the best critiques IMO.  A few diehards might still prfer to dissemble about the history, but once again, they are a very much smallr and less influntial faction than say those currently holding the United States, Britain and Canada hostage.   When our deary departed 'Friend' insisted that the mainstream NDP make mass public 'denunciations' for even 'associating' with 'socialists' he himself was displaying an unpleasant authoritarian streak.   I'm glad you took the extra time to join in. 

Erik, I think I agree with most of your points. But I think that you might find some here reluctant to reject Stalinism - and, of course, on babble, Lenin's well-documented atrocities are thought of as only being "alleged".

So, moving along at a sprightly pace, how about that Andrea Horwath, eh?

Erik Redburn

Thank you yglk.  I remain somewhat optmistic that the centre-left, centre-right and dead centre can still maintain a degree of civility and mutual respect, if not collegality, in these hard times.  In return I will concede that yes, there are still a few who I intend to continue challenging, whenever it comes up as part of the main course.  Maybe I'll get my hard-ass banned too.

Re Horvath, I think she's great!   And she looked very nice in those scanty outfits they advertised her in....

Seriously, I think she's an improvement on the probably well meaning but stodgy Hampton.    I'm glad they never tried dressing him up though. 

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Erik Redburn wrote:

Re Horvath, I think she's great!   And she looked very nice in those scanty outfits they advertised her in....

Seriously, I think she's an improvement on the probably well meaning but stodgy Hampton.    I'm glad they never tried dressing him up though. 

Oh please Erik.  Get your head around the fact that this woman might not be a puppet and might actually want to dress the way SHE feels comfortable. 

I found that last comment quite disrespectful of her as a leader and implies she is not really a leader at all.

Erik Redburn

Um, you didn't catch the note of sarcasm there?   Of COURSE it was demeaning to a women of her acomplishment.  Hell, it was insulting to everyone who doesn't wear a cod piece.  But it was just another minor expression of where we're at as a society now, when even accomplished four dimensional individuals have to be sold as Miss October.

 

ETA:  The sad thing is I Don't think it was her personal brainstorm, no.  It couldn't have possibly been comfortable for anyone but an experienced model.  FAIC, the 'image consultant' controls too many levers in politics now.  It just doesn't come across so well among progressives, thats what these overpaid suits never understand.

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Sorry I often miss sarcasm when it has no body and voice clues. 

Doug

I think I've lost the thread here - or perhaps someone else has - but what does Andrea Horwath have to do with Lenin? I must have missed her plan to replace the provisional government once Dalton McGuinty gets deposed.

Life, the unive...

Clearly someone doesn't get out much if they think a woman looking fairly normal in a pants suit is "scantily" clad.  What next -an admonishment for her to stop wearing her hair down.  The attacks on women in politics just get weirder and weirder.  What seems to disturb a certain kind of man -and they are found on the left and right- is a woman politician not trying to be a man.  There seems to be a much greater comfort level with women politicians who ape male attitudes and ways of doing things.   Just be a woman, and make no bones about it- well then that's a problem.

Not sure when this thread jumped the shark, but it seems to have jumped a whole school of them.

Erik Redburn

Oh please.  Undecided

Doug

Clearly she displays shocking amounts of skin constantly - if she were running for office in Afghanistan, perhaps.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Aaaaaaaand: scene. Please start a new Horwath thread purged (so to speak) of this bizarre drift.

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