Sudbury By-Election, 2015

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PrairieDemocrat15

Debater wrote:

robbie_dee wrote:

Debater wrote:

It's certainly a questionable ethical move by Thibeault & Wynne, but there's no evidence of anything criminal taking place.

That's a great slogan for your campaign material: "Vote Liberal! Our ethics may be questionable, but there's no evidence of anything criminal taking place." Run with it.

Don't forget the involvement of an NDPer in this.

You are hilarious.

Debater

The NDP has trouble looking at its own ethical failings objectively.

Remember the Satellite Offices?

ajaykumar

Debater wrote:

The NDP has trouble looking at its own ethical failings objectively.

Remember the Satellite Offices?

dont never forget that the NDP was the one sending partisain mailings, a prime example "pot calling the kettle black". Also remember that  taxpayers are at hook for millions of dollar cause an NDP MPP, and an NDP MP dont want their jobs anymore. Remember the NDP mps charging the most in hospitality expenses. However, I do think that premier wynne made a mistake with appointing an NDP turnocaot. But I also think that it might have been ruse to help the federal liberals win in sudbury. Trudeau would be wise to have andrew olivier as a fed. candidate. 

janfromthebruce

Satellite Offices in which the NDP ran it by the ethics commission and was told it was okay. But than there was a complaint and in the not from public view committee the Liberal committee members climbed into bed with the Harper Cons and passed a motion to make them illegal until the election.

Liberals just love getting into bed with their Con brethren and by geez they have the same ethics. They just love their P3s so they can pass the pork to their elitest insiders and corporate buddies why screwing the public purse and the ordinary taxpayers. Got to love the liberalcons!

Debater

The NDP were even trying to open an office in Saskatchewan where they have no MP's.  They were playing close to the rules and they got caught.  And then they try to blame the Liberals for it rather than taking personal responsibility for it.  On another thread, Ken S. acknowledged that the NDP should not have got itself into this mess.

Jan, I'll ask this question again:  when is the NDP going to admit when it is wrong and stop blaming others?

jjuares

Thread drift

Stockholm

FWIW the first poll of the Sudbury byelection by Liberal-friendly Forum Research actually has the NDP candidate Suzanne Shebonquit leading Thibeault the turncoat 42-40% with Andrew Olivier a surporisingly weak 1%

 

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2015/01/15/sudbury-byelection-a-h...

janfromthebruce

exactly JJ. Let's focus on the Ontario byelection.

Poll shows Wynne's Sudbury byelection manipulations backfiring, NDP candidate favoured by voters.

Sudbury byelection a horserace between NDP and Liberals, poll shows

Now it's a Forum poll so add at least 5% onto the NDP preference since this pollster is a known Liberal pollster with built in bias. It also shows some odd results which don't seem to fit:

Olivier has a 68 percent approval but supposedly only 1 percent support. Now that strange.

Both Shawbonquit and Olivier have the approval of 68 per cent of voters while Thibeault’s is 51 per cent. Remember Shawbonquit only won the nomination 2 days ago and relatively unknown.

To end, at first glance it seems the poll shows all the anti-Thibeault sentiment polarizing behind the NDP. Team Turncoat is a bust.

nicky

http://www.thesudburystar.com/2015/01/15/olivier-releases-recordings

 

"We would like to give you options in terms of appointments, etc"

 

Liberal sleeze on full view

nicky

Lougheed: "For the past 3 years I have been trying to get Thibeault to cross the floor and join Trudeau's team."

Talk about rewarding Olivier if he backs out.

"Ask yourself what's in it for me. Appointment? Heading a commission?"

Sounds like a pure attempt at bribery.

 

 

ctrl190

I'm surprised to see Olivier only at 1%. I reckon once the recording spreads his polling will increase. The biggest obstacle facing Olivier is campaign resources, particularly in low turnout by-elections where you need every resource you can get. 

robbie_dee

janfromthebruce wrote:

Olivier has a 68 percent approval but supposedly only 1 percent support. Now that strange.

Whoops, maybe he should have just taken the job.

nicky

Pat Sorbara : "Let's look at other ways... you can be involved." "There are committeesd we cd give you a voice on." "premier said we shd have that conversation." "You cd meet with the premier regularly." "There is stuff coming out about different boards and committes that will be formed."

"Glen wd be open ..." to giving you a job.

"Lot's of options. ...whether part time, full time... apointment to board or commission."

Debater, you may have been premature in gloating this was just sleeze and not bribery.

Debater

I haven't gloated about anything, Nicky.  You seem to imagine gloating everywhere.

The irony of course is that you engage in a lot of gloating yourself.

I've said from the beginning of this thread that I don't think Wynne & Thibeault have handled this very well, but that it shows both Liberals AND New Democrats can be opportunists.  You seem reluctant to acknowledge the latter.

nicky

It certainly shows Glen Thibeault to be an opportunist which is why he has a natural home in the Party of Entitlement.

You were congratualting the Liberals a few posts back about the OPP closing their investigation. I think you spoke too soon.

janfromthebruce

robbie_dee wrote:

janfromthebruce wrote:

Olivier has a 68 percent approval but supposedly only 1 percent support. Now that strange.

Whoops, maybe he should have just taken the job.

Oliver already stated he had a job but one has to be able to go to bed at night and not wake up dirty.

olivier gets off the phone call & asks an aide, "what do i do?" she responds, if you don't play ball, "they're going to bury you." #onpoli

Welcome to the Liberal party. Let's walk down memory lane up to election night!

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/03/20/tim-hudaks-pcs-and-andrea-horwaths-ndp-are-reckless-premier-kathleen-wynne

“If there’s an election held this year ... it will be a choice between our safe hands and their reckless schemes,” she said.

Liberal theme: "safe hands"

now

"dirty hands" with Liberal "reckless scheming"

Kathleen Wynne leads Liberals to victory

"You voted for jobs, you voted for growth, you voted to build Ontario up," Wynne said in her victory speech at the Sheraton Centre in downtown Toronto.

"We're not going to leave anyone behind."

EXCEPT YOU OLIVER

Oh Snap

"You have put your trust in us and we will not let you down," Wynne said.

"I will work every day to earn and keep the confidence of the people of Ontario."

So precious & priceless

 

 

 

 

janfromthebruce

Bottom line from both tapes: Liberals offered Andrew Olivier a job or government appointment as they tried to convince him to drop out.

And under the Ontario election act here is the relevant part about bribery:

About these Andrew Olivier calls: Here's what the Elections Act says about bribery, and (e) is the relevant one here

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90e06_e.htm#BK204

96.1  No person shall, directly or indirectly,

(a) offer, give, lend, or promise or agree to give or lend any valuable consideration in connection with the exercise or non-exercise of an elector’s vote;

(b) advance, pay or cause to be paid money intending that it be used to commit an offence referred to in clause (a), or knowing that it will be used to repay money used in the same way;

(c) give, procure or promise or agree to procure an office or employment in connection with the exercise or non-exercise of an elector’s vote;

(d) apply for, accept or agree to accept any valuable consideration or office or employment in connection with the exercise or non-exercise of an elector’s vote;

(e) give, procure or promise or agree to procure an office or employment to induce a person to become a candidate, refrain from becoming a candidate or withdraw his or her candidacy. 1998, c. 9, s. 44.

nicky

I would be interested in hearing how our Liberal friends explain this quote from Pat Sorbara:

TRANSCRIPT of the recorded conversation:
"Pat 20:20 – 20:56 “That we don’t have to decide overnight, right? There’s lots of options that we can sit down and talk about, I mean we’re all gonna be back up in Sudbury many times, and we can sit down and, you know, and talk that through. We should have the broader discussion about what is it that you’d be most interested in doing, and then decide what shape that could take, that would fulfill that is what I’m getting at, whether it’s a full time or a part time job in a constit office, whether it is appointments, supports, or commissions, whether it is also going on the exec, there are lots of… but I would just, we would just need to better understand what is it that you most want to do.”"
======================================================
That most certainly sounds like a bribe for not running

PrairieDemocrat15

It seems this is standard operating procedure for the Liberal Party: "This happens more often than you might think" - Pat Sorbara to Andrew Olivier

Does anyone else think Lougheed should resign from the Sudbury Police Commission?

I wonder if we will get to hear the recording of Oliver's convo with Wynne. All I can say is: popcorn.gif.

terrytowel

Charlie Angus talks to Sun News about the recording and why Northerners don't accept floor crossings under any circumstances

Sun News airs excerpts of the tape at video link below.

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/featured/prime-time/867432237001/an-o...

NorthReport

Sounds like the usual Liberal lies and deceipt.

OPP reviews spurned byelection candidate’s claims Liberals offered him job

Police take second look after Andrew Olivier releases recordings of Liberal operatives offering him positions to step aside for premier’s preferred candidate.

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2015/01/16/opp-reviews-spurned-by...

nicky

This from the Sudbury Star on OPP re-opening their investigation:

http://www.thesudburystar.com/2015/01/17/opp-takes-second-look-at-olivie...

I think Jan is exactly right in quoting the Ontario Elections Act:

 96.1 e No person shall, directly or indirectly,...... 
(e) give, procure or promise or agree to procure an office or employment to induce a person to become a candidate, refrain from becoming a candidate or withdraw his or her candidacy. 1998, c. 9, s. 44.

It is hard to see how this does not apply to the efforts of Lougheed and Sorbara. They both said on the tape they were acting on behalf of Wynne. Wynne of course denies that the offer came indirectly from her, but to paraphrase the recently departed Mandy Rice-Davies, "She would, wouldn't she."

janfromthebruce

"We offered Mr. Olivier a non-specific job so he would specifically not run."

‘No specific offer made,’ Wynne says of Sudbury candidate asked to leave race

Nothing in 96.1 says the offer has to be specific. Splitting hairs is not going to work here.

jjuares

janfromthebruce wrote:

"We offered Mr. Olivier a non-specific job so he would specifically not run."

‘No specific offer made,’ Wynne says of Sudbury candidate asked to leave race

Nothing in 96.1 says the offer has to be specific. Splitting hairs is not going to work here.


To me the lack of specificity makes it look worse for the Liberals. They were going to give him a job doing something somewhere? That sounds like more of an inducement or promise than a specific job in which the Liberals could at least argue that he was the most qualified for a particular position. I hope the press picks up on this and the OPP shows courage and interviews Wynne.

robbie_dee

I suspect that the Liberals' threat (which was subsequently implemented) that Wynne would simply appoint a candidate may be what saves their bacon. If there was no nomination to contest, then the promise of a job or other benefits wasn't per se to induce him not to be a candidate but rather to induce him "not to make trouble" over being bigfooted. It all depends on who said what and when, though, and is still slimy in any case.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

robbie_dee wrote:

I suspect that the Liberals' threat (which was subsequently implemented) that Wynne would simply appoint a candidate may be what saves their bacon. If there was no nomination to contest, then the promise of a job or other benefits wasn't per se to induce him not to be a candidate but rather to induce him "not to make trouble" over being bigfooted. It all depends on who said what and when, though, and is still slimy in any case.

A very interesting point. It would seem that the most important fact would be whether the formal appointment of Thibeault as candidate took place before or after the offers were made to Olivier. If it was before, then your analysis would seem to apply. But if the appointment took place after the offers were made and rejected, it would make a good case for the lawyers to argue.

nicky

I think Lougheed said on the tape that the preferred route would be a nomination meeting with Thibeault winning by acclamation and Olivier nominatinhg him.

If this is the case then Robbie's interesting point would not save the Liberals from prosecution.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

nicky wrote:

I think Lougheed said on the tape that the preferred route would be a nomination meeting with Thibeault winning by acclamation and Olivia nominatinhg him.

If this is the case then Robbie's interesting point would not save the Liberals from prosecution.

Yes, I agree. I haven't listened to the audio, or read the transcripts, but if they contain what you say, that would very likely invalidate robbie's defence theory.

robbie_dee

Well, I guess it depends on whether its a violation of the Elections Act to attempt to induce someone to withdraw as a candidate from a contest which the person doing the inducing knows or at least believes will not actually occur.

janfromthebruce

Michael Moriarity wrote:

nicky wrote:

I think Lougheed said on the tape that the preferred route would be a nomination meeting with Thibeault winning by acclamation and Olivia nominatinhg him.

If this is the case then Robbie's interesting point would not save the Liberals from prosecution.

Yes, I agree. I haven't listened to the audio, or read the transcripts, but if they contain what you say, that would very likely invalidate robbie's defence theory.

Yes, Lougheed did say that. Interesting if Glenn T. is requested for a interview with the cops, as to the validity of him, through Lougheed asking that Olivier nominate him. Lougheed said Glenn would like that. And also an offer of a job in his office.

More importantly, it going to court and having to take the stand and swear an oath "to tell the truth"!

Debater

Glenn Thibeault: Why I did what I did

Jan 19, 2015

Excerpt:

Six years ago, I ran federally to represent Sudbury because, simply, I wanted to work for Sudbury. I ran for the NDP because I wanted to work with Jack Layton.

He had a message of hope and a vision that politics could be about more than partisanship and vicious attacks. 

Since his death, however, much has changed. My work on behalf of the people of Sudbury grew and changed, as I learned how to serve my constituents more effectively. And, with Jack gone, the NDP changed. There came a time when I could no longer reconcile my goals and values for this great city, with those of the NDP. 

----

http://www.northernlife.ca/mobile/displayarticle.aspx?id=90650

 

scott16

Debater wrote:

Glenn Thibeault: Why I did what I did

Jan 19, 2015

Excerpt:

Six years ago, I ran federally to represent Sudbury because, simply, I wanted to work for Sudbury. I ran for the NDP because I wanted to work with Jack Layton.

He had a message of hope and a vision that politics could be about more than partisanship and vicious attacks. 

Since his death, however, much has changed. My work on behalf of the people of Sudbury grew and changed, as I learned how to serve my constituents more effectively. And, with Jack gone, the NDP changed. There came a time when I could no longer reconcile my goals and values for this great city, with those of the NDP. 

----

http://www.northernlife.ca/mobile/displayarticle.aspx?id=90650

 

If this is about a conflict with Tom Mulcair, then why Did Thibeault support him in the leadership race?

janfromthebruce

scott16 wrote:

Debater wrote:

Glenn Thibeault: Why I did what I did

Jan 19, 2015

Excerpt:

Six years ago, I ran federally to represent Sudbury because, simply, I wanted to work for Sudbury. I ran for the NDP because I wanted to work with Jack Layton.

He had a message of hope and a vision that politics could be about more than partisanship and vicious attacks. 

Since his death, however, much has changed. My work on behalf of the people of Sudbury grew and changed, as I learned how to serve my constituents more effectively. And, with Jack gone, the NDP changed. There came a time when I could no longer reconcile my goals and values for this great city, with those of the NDP. 

----

http://www.northernlife.ca/mobile/displayarticle.aspx?id=90650

 

If this is about a conflict with Tom Mulcair, then why Did Thibeault support him in the leadership race?

How Smarmy of Glenn T.

"The last few weeks have taught me that there’s not much room in my life for negativity. Negativity leads nowhere. I listened as people attacked my credibility instead of debating the issues, and resolved not to play their game."

On Smarm

We have popular names now for the rhetorical tools these flacks are deploying: the straw-man attack, the fake umbrage, the concern-trolling. Why are those tools so familiar? It is because they are essential parts of the smarmer's tool kit, the grease gun and the rag and the spatula.

Debater

A Union that backed NDPer Cimino last year has apparently now moved their support to the OLP & Glenn Thibeault:

David Akin wrote:

In June, Ironworkers Local 786 in Sudbury endorsed ONDP candidate. Today, they endorse OLP’s @GlennThibeault #onpoli

https://twitter.com/davidakin/status/557550748368904192

Stockholm

They are a very small union local with a handful of members - the big unions in Sudbury like the Steelworkers, CUPE etc... are all sending in reinforcements to annhilate the anti-worker Thibeault - who incidentally made headlines today by dodging an all-candidate's debate at the last minute so he could go to a pho-op instead. Word is that he is petrified of having to debate his opponents and have to answer questions about the shady deal that he cooked up with the liberals to make sure no democratic process was followed in making him Wynne's puppet Liberal

Debater

Thibeault missed a Seniors' Debate that was apparently scheduled at the last minute and that he wasn't given a lot of notice for.  It wasn't one of the regular candidate debates, although it seems the NDP is trying to stir up a lot of controversy over it.

David Akin reports that this is just one of 2 Unions that have endorsed Thibeault, so it's not the only one.  And even if they are small, it still represents a shift from last year when they were behind the ONDP.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Why would any unions want a sharp swing to the Right in Sudbury?

They have to know that a vote for Thibeault is a vote to strengthen a provincial government that is viciously anti-worker. 

Debater

I think it will be a close vote, but have no idea how it will turn out.

It's only 2 weeks away now.

We'll have to see which party is more motivated at getting its voters out and where the swing voters come down on all this.

The NDP is working hard to take Thibeault down right now, and Charlie Angus has been going all out as the designated hitter on Thibeault.

ajaykumar

Every party makes backroom deals, but the liberals are the only one,who get caught. Without backroom deals,no party would survive. My mother, who speaks no English, told me once that Wynne looks pretty clever. She could tell by looking at her.

Rokossovsky

ajaykumar wrote:
Every party makes backroom deals, but the liberals are the only one,who get caught. Without backroom deals,no party would survive. My mother, who speaks no English, told me once that Wynne looks pretty clever. She could tell by looking at her.

This is the thing, whenever I read Horwath speaking on the issue of Liberal corruption, she seems perplexed because she can't figure out if its straight up corruption, or incompetence. You suggest here that they are simply incompetent?

The tape with Wynne has yet to surface. When it does we can see just how clever she is. :)

Rokossovsky

Debater wrote:

The NDP is working hard to take Thibeault down right now, and Charlie Angus has been going all out as the designated hitter on Thibeault.

I think he volunteered. He is very loyal to the NDP.

nicky

Thibault had hired two members of the Ironworkers local executive to work in his office. That is how he secured the endorsement of what is quite a smalll local. It is in no way indicative of the labour movement overall in Sudbury.

Debater

But the point is that if some of the people who voted for Cimino/ONDP last year switch to Thibeault/OLP this year, it could make the difference in what could be a close race.

nicky

Trying to be objective about Sudbury:

Pro-Liberal factors:

1. a traditional Liberal seat, albeit trending NDP over past several elections both federal and provincial

2. Thibeault has probably built up significant personal following. By all accounts a good constituency MP

3. Attraction to some that he may become a provincial cabinet minister.

4. Minor labour defection to T.

Pro-NDP factors:

1. Recent trends in Sudbury voting

2. Poll showing NDP slightly ahead, even before they chose candidate.

3. Olivier running as independent.

4. Split in Liberal riding association with entire executive resigning in protest.

5. Police investigation and persiting ethical cloud over T's defection.

6. Bad press for T over sleeze, skipping debates, appointment as candidate without nomination, etc.

7. A winter by-election with likley low turnout. An unenthusiatic Liberal local organization vs an NDP organization out for revenge.

8. Liberal progressive credentials which helped them win provincial election now tarnished.

terrytowel

NDP MP Charlie Angus, who represents the northern Ontario riding of Timmins-James Bay, told HuffPost that he found Thibeault's column a "pretty sad" attempt to change the channel.

"I think it's really cheap of Glenn to try and hide behind Jack Layton," he said. "For Glenn to invoke Jack Layton to explain him being involved in such a cynical manipulation, I think, is a misuse of who Jack Layton was and what Jack Layton stood for."

After all, Angus said, Layton "hated a backroom deal."

Angus said Thibeault told him before he jumped to the Liberals that he was "reconsidering his life in politics" because he missed his family and was spending too much time in Ottawa. Now, Angus wonders if the man he "considered a friend" made that claim while cutting a deal to bypass a local nomination process.

"That's what leaves a bad taste in the mouth," he said.

Angus says people in northern Ontario "don't like being told what to think" and believes Thibeault could get that message on election day.

"But the real message should always be that you have to go back to the people who gave you that mandate and you have to be true to them," Angus said. "He wasn't true to them and I think that he'll pay the price for that."

According to the NDP, Layton's mother, Doris, also wrote to Thibeault to express her disappointment.

"VERY DISAPPOINTED. MY SON JACK WOULD NOT CONDONE YOUR MOVE – HIS MUM DORIS," she wrote in a message shared with the party.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/01/19/glenn-thibeault-ndp-sudbury-byel...

NorthReport

If this big fuck you to the voters keeps up is Thibault even going to get his deposit back?

http://www.northernlife.ca/news/localNews/2015/01/20-carp-all-candidates...

Debater

That's one of your more objective posts, Nicky.  Too bad we don't see it from you more often!

On the subject of debates, local debates don't tend to matter too much.  The Conservatives have been getting away with having their candidates miss them for years.

janfromthebruce

I find it funny that Liberals in providing an excuse for not showing up to debates, use the cover of conservatives. Meanwhile, they complain so loudly when Harper did it. So Liberals are monkey see, monkey do. That's why we call Liberals Liberalcons!

ajaykumar

Thomas Mulcair leaving the pronvicial Liberals (a right wing party) to join the NDP was righeous. Maria Mourani being acclaimed an NDP candidate after wanting to seperate and divide Canada was incorruptible. Francoise Boivin leaving the Fed Liberals and running for the NDP was virtuous. But, Glenn Thibeault is a traitor. 

nicky

Neither Mulcair, Boivin or Mourani were bribed with promises of cabinet posts.

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