Sudbury By-Election, 2015

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Robo

Ciabatta2 wrote:

... The thing is, I bet the Liberals would have won this by election without appointing Thibeault and trying to buy off Olivier.

There was a short series of sketches on Saturday Night Live many years ago: What if Eleanor Roosevelt could fly?  What if Superman's rocket had landed in Nazi Germany?  Speculative questions usually make me think back to that -- good for a few laughs, but just silly speculation for the most part.  (For what it's worth, I agree that the Thibeault exercise ended up hurting the Liberals' chances more than helping them.)

I think that the Wynne Liberals tried to be too clever here, as they tried to be too clever in Kitchener-Waterloo in appointing a Conservative MPP to a comfy position in order to open up a seat they thought was "theirs".  When I've canvassed, the "Toronto people are trying to tell Sudbury who their candidate shoud be" approach was received warmly (on very cold days) at many, many doorsteps.  (To be realistic, many doorsteps also had the "blank look" that experience has taught me goes with Canadian voters who are too polite to tell a stranger that they have no intention to vote, so instead say "I haven't made my mind up yet" and hope you just let them shut the door.)  The Sudbury Star has had by-election news every day, which would never happen for a Toronto campaign (the smaller the community, the greater the need there is to fill the Local News sction -- presuming the community is big enough to have a daily newspaper to start), so turnout will be a little better than other recent by-elections.  But still, I think turnout will be about as low as it generally is for by-elections, and I think the Wynne advisors' antics will be enough of a reason for potential Liberal suporters to not bother to vote. 

When I was in the NDP campaign office, every New Democrat I had met over the years from Sudbury and Nickel Belt was there -- if anything, Thibeault's defection not only failed to "bring a personal following along" with him to the Liberal camp, it motivated local New Democrats to work harder.  There is real motivation for local New Democrats to not let Thibeault personally profit from the volunteer efforts they put in over recent years to get him into elected office. 

I think that motivated voters lie disproprtionately on the NDP side in this campaign (that's just my two cents, of course, from knocking on doors).  We shall see how many people actually get out to vote on Thursday.

Debater

Ciabatta2 wrote:

I also agree with Pondering that Thibeault seems to have this one in the bag, but this ordeal looks bad on all of the parties - the NDP for nominating a flake, the Liberals for seeming corrupt, Thibeault for being an opportunist, Wynne for being sneakey, Mulcair for having such a leading figure bolt.

I agree that all the parties look bad, and this makes voters cynical about politics and less likely to vote - something which benefits Harper at the federal level.

No wonder voter turnout is low in Canada.

I agree that Wynne has not handled this well and that Thibeault doesn't look great.  And I have said many times above that I don't think it should have been handled like this.

But I haven't seen any NDP supporters other than yourself acknowledge that Thibeault was an NDPer until 2 months ago and that it also reflects badly on the NDP and Mulcair himself.

If Oracle is correct, it looks like Thibeault is likely to win.  On the other hand, if Forum is right, it's a close race and either side could win.  Wouldn't it be interesting if Forum, which is disliked by most NDPers, ends up being more accurate than Oracle this time?!

Rokossovsky

Debater wrote:

Ciabatta2 wrote:

I also agree with Pondering that Thibeault seems to have this one in the bag, but this ordeal looks bad on all of the parties - the NDP for nominating a flake, the Liberals for seeming corrupt, Thibeault for being an opportunist, Wynne for being sneakey, Mulcair for having such a leading figure bolt.

I agree that all the parties look bad, and this makes voters cynical about politics and less likely to vote - something which benefits Harper at the federal level.

No wonder voter turnout is low in Canada.

The Liberal Party is a major voter suppression strategy of the right, bringing "the left" into disrepute by campaigning on bedrock "left" ideology, and then doing the opposite each and every time they are elected, is a major factor in the cynicism of voters.

terrytowel

"Politics should be positive," Glenn Thibeault said.

"The negativity coming specifically from NDP is clear example why I had to leave NDP."

"We should be debating ideas, ways to make city better, but instead, we're debating personal attacks and that's not politics that 99% of Sudburians want, not the politics Ontarians or Canadians want. I will stick to a positive message and try to get people to vote and vote for person they see as best candidate for Sudbury."

http://www.thesudburystar.com/2015/01/30/thibeault-touts-experience--for...

The above posting is NOT an endorsement or support by me. It is being posted for public comsumption on this board.

terrytowel

Robo wrote:

When Terry and Liberals complain that a contest is too negative,

Where was I complaining? I just copied and pasted an interview Glenn Thibeault did for public comsumption on this forum.

Maybe I should preference thing from now on to say I don't endorse or support what I'm posting.

Like when someone ReTweets a Tweet, they have on their account "RTs are NOT an endorsement or support."

Pondering

Rokossovsky wrote:
The Liberal Party is a major voter suppression strategy of the right, bringing "the left" into disrepute by campaigning on bedrock "left" ideology, and then doing the opposite each and every time they are elected, is a major factor in the cynicism of voters.

Trudeau has not been campaigning from the left. Do you have any evidence that he has been?

NorthReport

Vote suppressing Liberals

Well said Ros for the solid reasons you mentioned

Ciabatta2

Debater wrote:

But I haven't seen any NDP supporters other than yourself acknowledge that Thibeault was an NDPer until 2 months ago and that it also reflects badly on the NDP and Mulcair himself.

I'm not an NDP supporter and assumptions are silly.  I agree it comes off poorly on Mulcair but to be fair he comes off the least worst of any of those people.  What looks bad on him is the defection of a senior member.  His response, however, has been perfectly fine.

And I wouldn't get too haughty - Thibeault was a Liberal supporter before he ran for the NDP and he's a Liberal again now.  Your "but he was NDP!!!" line of commentary is incoherent.

Robo wrote:

There was a short series of sketches on Saturday Night Live many years ago: What if Eleanor Roosevelt could fly?  What if Superman's rocket had landed in Nazi Germany?  Speculative questions usually make me think back to that -- good for a few laughs, but just silly speculation for the most part.

Those sketches are akin to suggesting that the Liberals could have won the by-election by running Stompin' Tom.  Suggesting that the Liberals could have won without this Thibeault stuff is based on an analysis of the electoral history of the riding, the parties, the recent election result and a bit of anecdotal commentary.  It's not pie in the sky. It's pie on the table.

Robo wrote:

if anything, Thibeault's defection not only failed to "bring a personal following along" with him to the Liberal camp, it motivated local New Democrats to work harder.  There is real motivation for local New Democrats to not let Thibeault personally profit from the volunteer efforts they put in over recent years to get him into elected office. 

This is a very insightful and timely comment.  What many people don't realize - even those atuned to politics - is how much person-power goes into campaigns.  How much volunteers and supporters invest - finances, time, emotion - into getting someone elected.  How hard it is to find the right mix of dedication and skill.  How much of a pain it is to be on a riding exec.  How much grunt work there is.  Just how hard it is for many to go door to door or phone canvass.  How much elections take over the lives of volunteers.  The opportunity cost of being involved in campaigns is significant.

These sorts of "defections" and "coronations" eat at the soul of democracy - the people that are necessary to run actual campaigns.  The people who care the most.

And these occurrences say a lot about how leading figures - in this case Kathleen Wynne, the Liberal party, and Glenn Thibeault - truly care so so little for the people that get them elected.  Maybe this motivates some, but for many others it can be crushing and the final blow to participation in the process.

nicky

In late September Thibeault was content to receive the NDP nomination for the 2015 election.  Three months later he jumps ship.

His appologists claim he did so because the NDP changed  without telling us how.

It's hard to believe he had a reveltion in such a short period of time. It's much easier to beieve he was simply bribed by a promise of a cabinet post with the Party of Entitlement. I'm thankful that such a charlatan is no longer in the NDP.

nicky

In late September Thibeault was content to receive the NDP nomination for the 2015 election.  Three months later he jumps ship.

His appologists claim he did so because the NDP changed  without telling us how.

It's hard to believe he had a reveltion in such a short period of time. It's much easier to beieve he was simply bribed by a promise of a cabinet post with the Party of Entitlement. I'm thankful that such a charlatan is no longer in the NDP.

Pondering

WWWTT wrote:
Take a look at the democratic dictatorship of China where ethnic groups are guarenteed seats in their congress. Going to say that I like this system!

Me too but there should also be a quota for women including aboriginal women.

WWWTT wrote:
Lots of fantastic alternatives out there! Zero possibility the corporate imperialist colonial powers in Canada are ever going to allow a system that gives them free reign to control Canada or even have a voice!

With social media it is no longer true that people lack a voice. What we lack is coherence and dedication to a single goal.

WWWTT wrote:
My best suggestion, let Canada continue to spiral towards being on par with a third world world country.

That will never happen. We are on the most secure continent in the world, fortress North America, and we have enormous wealth in the form of water and other resources and a comparatively tiny population to support. We have our own currency to play with and US military might to defend us. They don't even want to absorb us. They don't need to. Our economic integration will continue.

WWWTT wrote:
At one time, I believed, the NDP was Canada's best chance! But somewhere along my path, I realized/witnessed the reality of how our democracy allows the enemies of socialist peoples values to be comprimised under the guise "freedom to vote"!

Socialists need public support. When public support exists, such a party rises. Syriza rose because people were already sufficiently disillusioned that they were waiting for a leader to have a plausible alternative.  I don't believe that things have to get that desperate to motivate people to demand change.

WWWTT wrote:
What kills me, is how people suck up the propaganda lie that the "right to vote" is somehow MORE important than say the right to an education or a decent job!

I don't think anyone believes that. Rather voting is thought to be the path to having a society in which people can get an education and a decent job.

WWWTT wrote:
Ultimately, when we vote, we participate in a system and strengthen a system, that continue to supress the majorities socialist values and well being.

Not voting doesn't change anything. They are quite happy for some people not to vote. 

Pondering

nicky wrote:

In late September Thibeault was content to receive the NDP nomination for the 2015 election.  Three months later he jumps ship.

His appologists claim he did so because the NDP changed  without telling us how.

It's hard to believe he had a reveltion in such a short period of time. It's much easier to beieve he was simply bribed by a promise of a cabinet post with the Party of Entitlement. I'm thankful that such a charlatan is no longer in the NDP.

It didn't change in three months, it changed since Layton was in charge. He would have run again for the NDP because his focus is on serving Sudbury. The opportunity came up to run provincially because Joe Cimino, NDP, only served for 6 months out of 4 years. That reflects poorly on the NDP. Thibeault thinks he can be more useful to the citizens of Sudbury at the provincial level than the federal level. I don't know Sudbury at all but it seems he has a strong personal reputation with voters. If that is the case then the bitter tarring of his reputation will backfire on the NDP. Some voters may be offended by Cimino quiting and blame the NDP for having such an unprepared candidate.

Pondering

Ciabatta2 wrote:
These sorts of "defections" and "coronations" eat at the soul of democracy - the people that are necessary to run actual campaigns.  The people who care the most.

Then because this is a democracy they should withdraw their support as was done to the Liberal party when it stopped satisfying its members.

Ciabatta2 wrote:
And these occurrences say a lot about how leading figures - in this case Kathleen Wynne, the Liberal party, and Glenn Thibeault - truly care so so little for the people that get them elected.  Maybe this motivates some, but for many others it can be crushing and the final blow to participation in the process.

Glenn Thibeault served out most of his term and has returned to the voters for another mandate. Joe Cimino quitting after only 6 months must have upset some people too.

janfromthebruce

Oh what a load of crap.

1. Thibeault supported and endorsed Mulcair for the leadership

2. Thibeault was caucas Chair and thus a part of the direction and decision making at the top.

3. Thibeault was nominated to be the NDP candidate at an nomination meeting late in September.

4. Thibeault decided to step down from Caucas chair in November stating he wanted to spend more time with his family. He did not say he was unhappy or disgruntled to those close to him in caucas.

5. Thibeault was and had been in conversations with Liberals for a while which was when he was caucas chair. It was stated that that big wig Liberal was often talking to him about crossing over.

6. Thibeault waited until he qualified for his pension before making his move.

7. They have on record that he actually checked his pension status just before he wrote his email to Mulcair. His lack of integrity and transparency showed with that ignorant move, as just the day before Mulcair and him were in communication by telephone.

8. Thibeault is serving himself and its obvious.

9. The rest is just liberal spin.

Regurgitated endlessly.

Interestingly enough Cimino hasn't taken any hit on this especially when he publicly stated that he didn't want the severence money.

MPP Joe Cimino won’t take $58K severance payout After more than a week of criticism and anger, New Democrat Joe Cimino says he won’t take severance of $58,000 after working just five months.

“For the information of the public, I was unaware that I would be eligible for any severance upon my resignation as MPP until after I resigned in writing and was notified by the Legislative Assembly of Ontario of the entitlement,” he said in a statement Thursday to his hometown Sudbury Star.

Cimino, who has not returned repeated calls from the Toronto Star since suddenly resigning Nov. 20 for unspecified personal reasons, continued that “as such, I did not plan on the funds when making the very difficult decision that I did.”

“Therefore, I have notified human resources with the Legislative Assembly of Ontario that I have no intention of accepting the severance allowance that was afforded me,” he said a payout that is six months of an MPP’s annual $116,500 salary.

On the one hand, Cimino showed class in his quitting, and on the other hand, Thibeault showed he was "classless" and a money grabber who is in it for himself.

So Cimino came out looking classy and really illuminated the difference in character between himself and Thibeault.

NorthReport
NorthReport

Sudbury byelection has lost focus on issues, candidates say

A winter byelection has become the new Cold War in Ontario politics between the Liberals and NDP, rife with political intrigue and an OPP investigation.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/02/01/sudbury-byelection-has-los...

Debater

Ciabatta2 wrote:

I'm not an NDP supporter and assumptions are silly.  I agree it comes off poorly on Mulcair but to be fair he comes off the least worst of any of those people.  What looks bad on him is the defection of a senior member.  His response, however, has been perfectly fine.

And I wouldn't get too haughty - Thibeault was a Liberal supporter before he ran for the NDP and he's a Liberal again now.  Your "but he was NDP!!!" line of commentary is incoherent.

I assumed you were an NDP supporter because 95% of the people who post here are NDPers.  Which party do you support, or are you a rare Independent?

As for Mulcair, some have criticized his response as being somewhat contradictory since he switched parties himself.  He's a former Liberal.

And I wasn't getting haughty - I was pointing out to NDPers here that Thibeault was an NDPer.  They want to pretend he's a Liberal and has always been a Liberal, but he was an NDP MP for 2 terms.  Some NDPers seem happy to accept Liberals when it is beneficial for them (eg. Tom Mulcair, Francoise Boivin) but want to forget when someone was an NDPer (eg. Glenn Thibeault).

So I think that's where the incoherence comes in.

I'll be glad when this wretched by-election is over, too.

Rokossovsky

Debater wrote:

I'll be glad when this wretched by-election is over, too.

There is a kind of sociopath we often see in politics who thinks that spin, regardless of how convoluted, is equivalent to the truth. Any argument in a storm, I guess, eh?

Nice to see that you are still capable of embarassment. There is hope for you yet.

Robo

Debater wrote:

...Some NDPers seem happy to accept Liberals when it is beneficial for them (eg. Tom Mulcair, Francoise Boivin) but want to forget when someone was an NDPer (eg. Glenn Thibeault).

So I think that's where the incoherence comes in.

I'll be glad when this wretched by-election is over, too.

Anyone who is forthright knows that being a Liberal supporter in Quebec -- or the supporter of any party in Quebec provincially -- has only a mild relationship with one's support federally. It is not at all like Ontario, where being a Liberal supporter provincially presumptively means that one is a Liberal supporter federally.

There was no provincial party titled NDP or Conservative in recent Quebec elections. I guess, by Debater's logic, that every federalist in Quebec "really" was a Liberal when they have been provincial Liberal supporters.

This isn't unique to Quebec. Many Tory MPs publicly endorse Liberals MLAs in BC elections. I guess, by Debater's logic, this means that Tories really are Liberals.

Don't pick at others' words and then use them with such lack of care yourself.

janfromthebruce

Taking people at their word in which Charlie Angus says:

"Mr. Thibeault was involved in these negotiations when he was telling our caucas that he needed time to be with his family. We all took him at his word."

NDP Charlie Angus says ex NDP MP Glenn Thibeault has no business in politics.

After the former NDP MP put his hat in the Liberal ring for the Sudbury by-election  Angus had some choice words for Thibeault, adding the party didn’t change but Thibeault did.

Charlie Angus Appalled by Ex NDP MP Glenn Thibeault

And that spin about Mulcair use to be a Liberal - that is the top Liberal spinners line in social media. So no surprise it's being mindlessly repeated here.

Rokossovsky

Robo wrote:

Debater wrote:

...Some NDPers seem happy to accept Liberals when it is beneficial for them (eg. Tom Mulcair, Francoise Boivin) but want to forget when someone was an NDPer (eg. Glenn Thibeault).

So I think that's where the incoherence comes in.

I'll be glad when this wretched by-election is over, too.

Anyone who is forthright knows that being a Liberal supporter in Quebec -- or the supporter of any party in Quebec provincially -- has only a mild relationship with one's support federally. It is not at all like Ontario, where being a Liberal supporter provincially presumptively means that one is a Liberal supporter federally.

There was no provincial party titled NDP or Conservative in recent Quebec elections. I guess, by Debater's logic, that every federalist in Quebec "really" was a Liberal when they have been provincial Liberal supporters.

This isn't unique to Quebec. Many Tory MPs publicly endorse Liberals MLAs in BC elections. I guess, by Debater's logic, this means that Tories really are Liberals.

Don't pick at others' words and then use them with such lack of care yourself.

Debater knows all these facts, and has been told this repeatedly. I wonder what it's like to spend your life finding new and interesting ways to repeat information that you know is false.

NorthReport

Even though it's true, Unionist will be quite upset talking about his best buddy like this.  Laughing

Rokossovsky wrote:

Robo wrote:

Debater wrote:

...Some NDPers seem happy to accept Liberals when it is beneficial for them (eg. Tom Mulcair, Francoise Boivin) but want to forget when someone was an NDPer (eg. Glenn Thibeault).

So I think that's where the incoherence comes in.

I'll be glad when this wretched by-election is over, too.

Anyone who is forthright knows that being a Liberal supporter in Quebec -- or the supporter of any party in Quebec provincially -- has only a mild relationship with one's support federally. It is not at all like Ontario, where being a Liberal supporter provincially presumptively means that one is a Liberal supporter federally.

There was no provincial party titled NDP or Conservative in recent Quebec elections. I guess, by Debater's logic, that every federalist in Quebec "really" was a Liberal when they have been provincial Liberal supporters.

This isn't unique to Quebec. Many Tory MPs publicly endorse Liberals MLAs in BC elections. I guess, by Debater's logic, this means that Tories really are Liberals.

Don't pick at others' words and then use them with such lack of care yourself.

Debater knows all these facts, and has been told this repeatedly. I wonder what it's like to spend your life finding new and interesting ways to repeat information that you know is false.

Stockholm

WOW! According to this article Thibeault is LYING when he says he left the NDP because it wasn't the same as it was under Layton. He was all set to jump to the Liberals back in 2009 when Layton was alive and well - and at a time when Ignatieff was whipping all Liberal MPs to vote in favour of the gun registry as well! This means that for the past 5 years Thibeault has likely been spying for the Liberals and telling them all about what goes on confidentially in NDP caucus meetings...

"Two party sources who spoke with VICE, however, said that Thibeault was negotiating with the federal Liberal Party as far back as 2009, when Jack Layton was still leader. He reportedly backed off after the poll numbers for then-Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff cratered."

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/the-premier-of-ontario-may-have-tried-to-...

Debater

Sounds like the NDP is getting pretty desperate if "party sources" have to anonymously be spreading all these stories every day.  Can't the NDP win the by-election based on the quality of its candidate rather than having to trash Thibeault every day?

And as I've asked many times before, what does it say about the NDP that there are so many traitors and people with poisonous intentions in the caucus?

Don't forget that Thibeault is not an isolated incident.  He is one of many MP's who have walked out of the NDP over the past term:

Bryce Hyer

Claude Patry

Sana Hassainia

Jean-Francois Larose

Lise St. Denis

Debater

Robo wrote:

Debater wrote:

...Some NDPers seem happy to accept Liberals when it is beneficial for them (eg. Tom Mulcair, Francoise Boivin) but want to forget when someone was an NDPer (eg. Glenn Thibeault).

So I think that's where the incoherence comes in.

I'll be glad when this wretched by-election is over, too.

Anyone who is forthright knows that being a Liberal supporter in Quebec -- or the supporter of any party in Quebec provincially -- has only a mild relationship with one's support federally. It is not at all like Ontario, where being a Liberal supporter provincially presumptively means that one is a Liberal supporter federally.

There was no provincial party titled NDP or Conservative in recent Quebec elections. I guess, by Debater's logic, that every federalist in Quebec "really" was a Liberal when they have been provincial Liberal supporters.

This isn't unique to Quebec. Many Tory MPs publicly endorse Liberals MLAs in BC elections. I guess, by Debater's logic, this means that Tories really are Liberals.

Don't pick at others' words and then use them with such lack of care yourself.

I use my words very carefully.  And I'm aware that there was no provincial NDP in Quebec.  You don't need to keep bringing that up.  It's not the point.

The point is that Mulcair is a shape-shifter and a political opportunist who appears to have no problem pretending to be a social democrat when in reality he is a centrist or maybe even a conservative.  He had no problem serving under Jean Charest - who was a Mulroney Tory.  Would a true social democrat do that?

And the Conservatives report that Tom Mulcair was interesting in a cabinet position from them - not a civil service post.  Who knows who is telling the truth, but perhaps it's time to start asking some questions about Tom Mulcair and which party he really serves.

And you also didn't address the other issue - that the NDP condemns people who leave the NDP, but has no problem with party switchers from other parties joining them.

So are you going to call out the NDP's hypocrisy on this issue?

Debater

Rokossovsky wrote:

Debater wrote:

I'll be glad when this wretched by-election is over, too.

There is a kind of sociopath we often see in politics who thinks that spin, regardless of how convoluted, is equivalent to the truth. Any argument in a storm, I guess, eh?

Nice to see that you are still capable of embarassment. There is hope for you yet.

Pardon?  Perhaps you'd like to re-think what you wrote there.  It sounds like a personal attack.

Did some of the NDP supporters here not read what Catchfire wrote on the Federal Liberal candidates thread that had to be closed?  Catchfire said that the NDP supporters are making the NDP look really bad through the way they have been behaving.

http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/federal-liberal-candidates-par...

NorthReport

Debater we all know Catchfire has your back, but for you to rub people's faces in that, will not win you many brownie points.

If you have a complaint have the balls to make it and stop with the threats.

Stockholm

Debater wrote:

Sounds like the NDP is getting pretty desperate if "party sources" have to anonymously be spreading all these stories every day.  

Ummm...Ling is saying that it is LIBERAL sources who have told him about Thibeault's secret talks with the liberals back in 2009. If the NDP had known about this - they would have expelled him rather than run the risk of him spying for the Liberals from within the NDP caucus.

Debater

Did money or principle drive Thomas Mulcair from the Conservative fold?

Thomas Mulcair's flirtation with the federal Conservatives has been well-chronicled, but there are new questions about why talks fell apart.

Thu Mar 01 2012

This week, senior New Democrats accused Mulcair of shopping himself to the Conservatives and the NDP simultaneously, without informing either party that he was carrying on parallel talks.

---

Mulcair reportedly was asking $150,000.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2012/03/01/tim_harper_did_money_or_pr...

Stockholm

Nice try to divert from Thibeault's espionage and lying.

Mulcair talked to the federal government back in 2006 about a CIVIL SERVICE position dealing with environmental issues. Civil servants are not members of political parties...or maybe you think Stephen Lewis joined the federal PC party when he agreed to be Canadian ambassador to the UN in 1984

Debater

Perhaps you should read Tim Harper's piece in its entirety before coming to Mulcair's defence.  And it says that even New Democrats accused Mulcair of "shopping himself to the Conservatives".

Say what you will about Justin Trudeau's negative qualities, he has always been a Liberal.  He has never "flirted" with the Conservatives or gone looking for some type of job from them.  He knows who he is - and he is not a Conservative.

Stockholm

Trudeau doesn't need to join the Conservative party - he already validates their policies by agreeing with them on all the major issues.

Back to Sudbury - its clear from Liberal sources that Glenn Thibeault is both a liar and a spy. Why would the Liberals even want such a horrible character in their party?

nicky

The anaonymous New Democrats who Debater says limked Mulcair wit hthe Conservatives were working for one of his opponents in the leadership race. Not the most objective source, but then objectivity doesn't matter when Debater wants to throw mud. 

nicky

The anonymous New Democrats who Debater says limked Mulcair wit hthe Conservatives were working for one of his opponents in the leadership race. Not the most objective source, but then objectivity doesn't matter when Debater wants to throw mud. 

Rokossovsky

Debater wrote:

Say what you will about Justin Trudeau's negative qualities, he has always been a Liberal.  He has never "flirted" with the Conservatives or gone looking for some type of job from them.  He knows who he is - and he is not a Conservative.

I don't recall ever critiquing Trudeau's "negative qualities", I have questioned whether or not he has "qualities" at all.

NorthReport

Broadbent backs Shawbonquit in Sudbury byelection

Former federal NDP Leader Ed Broadbent is endorsing Suzanne Shawbonquit in Sudbury's byelection Feb. 5.

Broadbent, who was leader from 1975-1984, said in a release his endorsement was based on integrity.

“Over a lifetime of public life, I’ve learned that integrity can’t be bought and it can’t be sold,” he said. “A person has it or a person doesn’t. That’s why I’m supporting Suzanne Shawbonquit.

“Suzanne has put her name on the ballot for all the right reasons. She has integrity and she has grit. She understands that politics must always be about serving the community. She knows that Sudbury families need a representative who will work hard to protect and create good paying jobs, who will fight cuts to health care and vital public services, and who will stand up for better care for our children and our elders.”

Broadbent's endorsement comes less than a week after former Liberal Prime Minister Jean Chretien backed Glenn Thibeault in the race to replace Joe Cimino, the NDP MPP who resigned in November.

Broadbent said his life in politics has made him a good judge of character, and Shawbonquit is “the genuine article.

“She will be a strong, principled voice for the people of Sudbury at Queen’s Park. Suzanne has my full support, and I hope she has yours. On this Feb. 5, elect the progressive choice for Sudbury. Elect a real New Democrat. Elect Suzanne Shawbonquit."

http://www.northernlife.ca/news/localNews/2015/02/02-broadbent-backs-sha...

janfromthebruce

A sort of tweet essay by Ling to compliment his article on sleazy Liberal politics and bribery. And yes Ling said 2 party sources which means it was colaborated by both.

1. @Justin_Ling

Just a few thoughts on that Wynne story. Don't call it a Twitter essay.

2.Justin Ling @Justin_Ling  ·  44m 44 minutes ago

This is the sort of thing that should be a huge friggin' deal. How it not? Remember when the Conservatives tried to buy off Chuck Cadman?

* Liberals screamed bloody murdered about that but when their own do it, well they do the turtle

3. Justin Ling @Justin_Ling  ·  44m 44 minutes ago

Offering someone a job so that they won't run is straight-up illegal. The Elections Act says so. Like, superduper illegal.

* that got alot of retweets

Justin Ling @Justin_Ling  ·  45m 45 minutes ago

4. The Liberals say: oh, hey, we were never going to let him run anyway. Okay, then why did you offer him a job?

5. Why was there entire lobbying effort to get Andrew Olivier to go quietly into that good night?

6. Hypothetical: 'Hey, I'm going to give you $5 if you vote for me. Also: I'm the only candidate.' That's still illegal.

7. How is it that most of the media kind of went: Oh my, a scandal! Then wandered off after a couple of days? That's not okay.

8. I mean, sheesh ya'll, the Premier of the biggest friggin' province is implicated in a bribery scandal. Guilty or no: it's a big freakin deal

That compliments his essay. So yeah, Thibeault doesn't mind using another party resources to get himself elected rather than challenge the current sitting Liberal MP. But in 2009, he wanted to ensure his life in parliament and so approaches the Liberal leader in 2009. But polling sucks so he backs off.

Lucky for him because by gosh Jack and NDP campaign takes him to official opposition. Jack sadly dies and he endorses Mulcair for leadership. Even gets elected to be causas chair, and turns around and knifes Mulcair, the NDP and his riding association in the back.

Thibeault is in it for himself and all that serving the good people of Sudbury is just smoke and mirrors and spin.

Thibeault and Liberal party along with Wynne drive home what sleazy politics looks. No different than the Harper Conservatives.

To end,

  Justin Ling @Justin_Ling  ·  55m 55 minutes ago

So, again, maybe the Liberals aren't guilty, here. But their current defence is flimsy.

Centrist

A couple of new polls:

Oracle (CATI poll):

Thibeault - 40.9%

Shawbonquit - 25.5%

Olivier - 18.8%

Undecided - 26%

Mainstreet Technologies (IVR poll -882 sample size):

Thibeault - 37%

Shawbonquit - 32%

Olivier - 16%

Undecided - 13%

http://www.thesudburystar.com/2015/02/03/sudbury-race-close-but-thibeaul...

 

 

MegB

If this thread becomes another sh*t-flinging contest, it too will be closed for business. Y'all know who you are.

NorthReport

Talk about a smoking gun! Frown

OPP seek recordings in Liberal byelection investigation

TORONTO – Ontario’s provincial police have gone to court to seek recordings in an investigation into allegations the province’s Liberals broke the law during the selection of a candidate for the Sudbury byelection. Premier Kathleen Wynne asked Andrew Olivier, the Liberals’ candidate in Sudbury in last June’s general election, not to seek the nomination for Thursday’s...

 

http://www.ipolitics.ca/2015/02/03/opp-seek-recordings-in-liberal-byelec...

 

Unionist

NorthReport wrote:

Even though it's true, Unionist will be quite upset talking about his best buddy like this.  Laughing

I made the mistake of looking in at this toxic waste-dump of a pissing match thread, and found my name - even though I never posted here.

So I thought I would reply, with the wise words of a well-known philosopher and expert in social media:

NorthReport, on January 23 wrote:

Everyone needs to lay off the personal attacks as much as possible. 

Some posters are very sly with their words, but don't go down to the bottom of the barrel with them.

Keep focused on the topic and not the poster, no matter how misleading, deceiving or frustrating their comments are, as often they are done to get a rise out of you.

For some posters often the best response is no response. Silence can be, and often is, golden.

Just ignore them.

In other words please don't dignify their dumb-ass comments with a reply.

I like the January 23 NorthReport better, and I have nothing to add to his excellent advice.

NorthReport

Who is Mainstreet Technologies who has the NDP's Shawbonquit within 5% of the Liberals? And do they have a track record?

This narrowing of the gap between Shawbonquit and Thibeault shows the Oliver supporters Suzanne is the only chance to stop the Liberals so they might as well support her at least for this election. Then if Suzanne does indeed win, they can watch her performance and decide to boot her or keep her in the next election.

NorthReport

Come on Olivier supporters, you can do your candidate proud by bringing down Thibeault.

I was so pleased to see to see Horwath and Horwath up in Sudbury walking the talk. The more NDP leaders were in Sudbury the better Shawbonquit's chances. Maybe Andrea should return tomorrow and have a big rally if she can.

The more Wynne was in Sudbury the more the Liberal support dropped off.

Shawbonquit is now within 4%, almost tied, within the margin of error which is 3.38% (difference being 0.62%). 

Latest poll has Thibeault leading Shawbonquit 32%-28%

A Mainstreet Technologies poll conducted Monday evening on voter intentions heading into the Feb. 5 Sudbury byelection found Liberal Glenn Thibeault, left,  ahead with 32 per cent support, followed by NDP candidate Suzanne Shawbonquit at 28 per cent and independent Andrew Olivier at 14 per cent. File photo.

http://www.northernlife.ca/news/localNews/2015/02/03-mainstpoll.aspx

 

Debater

This is the latest Oracle Poll, reported by CTV Northern Ontario:

A CTV-commissioned poll of 400 voters in Sudbury shows the Liberals and Glenn Thibeault leading the NDP by 15%

February 2:

Thibeault (40.9%)

Shawbonquit (25.5%)

Olivier (18.8%)

https://twitter.com/CTVNorthernNews/status/562397837892141056

Debater

It will be interesting to see whether Mainstreet Technologies is more accurate than Oracle.  I don't think Mainstreet Technologies is based in Northern Ontario like Oracle, so they may not know the terrain as well.  Still, it's possible that Mainstreet could be right that the race is very close.

As for this by-election, as Kady O'Malley said yesterday, she'll be glad when it is over.  It has been a pretty poisonous affair all around.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

If Olivier really wants to get revenge on Wynne for blocking him as the Liberal candidate, he should withdraw from the race and endorse Shawbonquit.  He'd have nothing to lose-clearly, he's out of contention in the byelection and he will never have any future place in Ontario Liberal politics.

C'mon Andrew, at least think about it.

Debater

I think you've got a good suggestion there, Ken Burch.

The Liberals are not likely to forgive Olivier for his treachery in this mess - he's been almost as manipulative as Thibeault.  What sort of person secretly records phoone calls and then releases them to the press?

If Olivier had taken his lumps gracefully, he might have had a shot at running for the Federal nomination in Sudbury this year.  But he's burnt those bridges, too.

Aristotleded24

Debater wrote:
The Liberals are not likely to forgive Olivier for his treachery in this mess - he's been almost as manipulative as Thibeault.  What sort of person secretly records phoone calls and then releases them to the press?

It's generally good business practice to take notes when you are having a professional meeting with someone, and in his case since he can't take notes, he has to record these things electronically.

nicky

If Debater uses the word "treachery" to describe Oliver I wonder how he would describe Thibeault, Wynne, Lougheed, Sorbara, .........?

adma

Now, *this* turns that Oracle poll inside out...

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2015/02/04/liberals-ndp-neck-and-neck-in-sudbury-byelection-poll-finds.html

36 NDP (!?!), 33 Lib, 14 Olivier, according to Forum Research.

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