TO-TTC Shooting: "This Doesn't Sound Like Something That Should Be Happening in a Free Society."

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NDPP
TO-TTC Shooting: "This Doesn't Sound Like Something That Should Be Happening in a Free Society."

Many Questions in Fatal TTC Streetcar Shooting (and vid)  - by Joe Warmington

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/07/27/many-questions-in-streetcar-fatal-s...

 

"TORONTO - Bang, bang bang.

 Six seconds of quiet.

  Bang, bang, bang.

  Pause.

  Bang.

  Pause.

  Bang.

  Silence.

 

This doesn't sound like something that should be happening in a free society.  

 

There are a number of questions..."

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

No worries...The officers involved will be punished with an all expenses paid vacation,followed by a stern tongue lashing.

NDPP

Man Dies in Street Showdown With Police (and vid)

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/07/28/man_dies_in_street_showdown...

"Sammy Yatim, 18, is identified by friends as the person slain...Majed Yatim, who identified himself as Sammy Yatim's uncle, said he was still dealing with his nephew's sudden death.

'It's unbelievable. He was just a child,' he told the Star Sunday morning. 'I am still grieving right now.'

He said Sammy and his family moved to Canada from Syria four or five years ago..."

 

Sammy Yatim: Family of Dead Teen Stunned and Baffled By Police Shooting

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/07/28/sammy_yatim_family_of_dead_...

"...Since when did it become a crime to be a teenager, I ask you? And since when does a scrawny 110-pound-something teenager become a threat to a dozen or so brawny policemen, when he is isolated in an empty streetcar?"

 

NDPP

Family in Shock After Police Shooting on Toronto Streetcar (and vid)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2013/07/28/toronto-ttc-stree...

Sammy and his family were from Aleppo...

 

'Opposition' Mercenaries Nassacre Civilians in Aleppo

http://www.globalresearch.ca/opposition-mercenaries-massacre-civilians-i...

Canada, of course, supports the 'rebels'...

Maysie Maysie's picture

This is a disgusting act of police violence.

If you're in Toronto tomorrow, please try to attend this march/vigil:

Quote:

Emergency Vigil/March - Justice for Sammy: End Police Violence 

Monday July 29, 2013, 5pm

NOTE: In coordination with the friends and family of Sammy, this event has been changed to start at Dundas Square at 5pm, it will then march to Dundas and Bellwoods for around 6:30pm. Please meet us at either location. 

On Friday night Toronto Police shot and killed 18 year old Sammy Yatim on a 505 streetcar at Dundas and Bellwoods. This is an emergency vigil/march to demand justice for Sammy and an end to police violence. 

We will gather at the site of the shooting and march to 14 Division - the cops responsible for killing Sammy and others before him including Edmond Yu who was also shot by police on the TTC in 1997. 

Bring candles and signs. 

Compilation of everyone murdered by Toronto Police: http://bit.ly/KilledbyTorontoPolice and Factsheet on Police violence against the African community in Canada: http://toronto.mediacoop.ca/blog/ajamu-nangwaya/18378

Aristotleded24

Anybody remember how tasers were promoted on the idea that police could take out someone with a knife without killing them, and ironically enough in this case, they used the taser after shooting him?

NDPP

CP 24 reported Sammy Yatim had contacted a friend hours earlier to tell him his phone had died and to arrange a meeting.  He speculated Sammy may have been lost and said that although 'polite and respectful' he was shy due to his 'uncertain English'.

There is a march and vigil for Sammy Yatim now scheduled for Monday, July 29, to start at Yonge-Dundas Square and march to 14 Division via Dundas and Bellwoods. Please help spread the word.

For more information on this developing story follow the twitter feed here

https://twitter.com/search?q=%23sammyyatim&src=hash

 

shartal@rogers.com

Remember Edmond Yu?

NDPP

Enhanced video showing the killing of Sammy Yatim by Toronto Police

http://youtu.be/lG6OTyjzAgg

lagatta

Horrible. At the time I read this, I was playing with my (approximately) 3-inch knife, a little Opinel I use for cutting up fruit and cheese. I suppose I could kill someone rather helpless with that, but even one brawny, trained police officer? Not a chance.

But I'm not a brown or black-skinned teenage boy, who sounded more confused than anything else.

I hope a lot of people show up for the demonstration, and that this crap doesn't go unchallenged. When the Montréal police last killed a brown-skinned teenage boy, he didn't even have a wee knife.

NDPP

Streetcar Gun Killing Of Teen By Police Jolts Security Expert (and vid)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2013/07/29/toronto-streetcar...

"...The family, which moved to Toronto from Syria about five years ago, is hiring a lawyer and wonders how police could shoot him multiple times even after it appears he went down. His sister, Sarah, said her family is in shock."

Bacchus

Oddly enough a lot of knives used in combat are 5-6 inches long. Wasnt that how long this knife was? (I know a witness said it was about that long)

 

I mean its no minature hammer (re:Yu)

NDPP

Security Camera Footage of Police Shooting on TTC Streetcar (and vid)

http://globalnews.ca/video/748601/security-camera-footage-of-police-shoo...

"Newly released security camera footage shows the moments before, during and after Toronto police shot and killed Sammy Yatim."

 

Sammy Yatim: 'In his death, he will live forever,' says his mother (and vid)

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/07/29/sammy_yatim_in_his_death_he...

"Thousands of people turned out for a vigil and march on Monday evening to protest the police shooting death of 18-year-old Sammy Yatim, including his mother and sister..."

 

Sammy Yatim Protest Gets Heated Outside Police Station (and vid)

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/07/29/sammy-yatim-protest-photos_n_367...

"The officer involved in the shooting has been suspended with pay.."

Sineed

According to his mother, Sammy collected Swiss Army knives. 

It's puzzling why the cops didn't just lock down the streetcar and let the kid cool off. Based on the information we have thus far, there was nobody left on the streetcar except Sammy, so he no longer posed a threat, even if he was waving around a machete or a butcher knife.

As it stands, it looks like he was executed for being disobedient.

Unionist

NDPP wrote:

"The officer involved in the shooting has been suspended with pay.."

Sounds fitting, although I thought we had abolished the death penalty.

 

NDPP

Toronto Police Didn't Need to Shoot Sammy Yatim: Editorial

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2013/07/30/toronto_police_didn...

"Every Torontonian is owed an explanation for what happened on that streetcar just after midnight on Saturday. And it's important that answers go beyond this particular shooting. Yatim wasn't the first person to be felled by Toronto police bullets while acting erratically.

Indeed, events like this happen with alarming frequency."

Bacchus

They make it sound like a disicpliary thing but the reality is all cops involved in a shooting are suspended with pay while a SIU investigation goes on.

6079_Smith_W

Sineed wrote:

According to his mother, Sammy collected Swiss Army knives.

When we were kids, most of us carried pocket knives. The game I most remember playing at school as a kid involved flicking knives into the ground.

I know we don't live in that kind of world anymore, but it is terrible and absurd that something (learning how to handle a knife) which is being promoted as resistance to over-protective parenting could contribute to getting someone killed.

oldgoat

I've watched the videos several times, and this was massively incompetently handled.   I am experienced in Nonviolent Crisis Intervention, and while my certification has lapsed, I used to instruct the course for my agency. (CMHA Toronto) Also, I have probably more practical day to day experience than this Cop, given that they said he was a 6 year veteran. I have been at the pointy end of a knife with less backup, a less secure situation, and no weapon other than my skillsets. What happened the other night was a huge massivley incompetent badly handled cock-up resulting in a death. There were just so many things obviously badly done. Having said that, I have worked with, and stood beside police officers who had and used very impressive skills in crisis de-escalation.  I know for a fact that the training is there, but it's probably just a one day thing, and not emphasised much.

DaveW

good post; even TV cops try first to talk and calm down a suspect...

the guy was not in a crowded place, he was surrounded by metal streetcar walls, sealing him in, so to speak

I don't get it, unless the cop later claims there was a bomb in his backpack  or something crazy like that, but even then, clear out the area and seal it off ...

 

Bacchus

DaveW wrote:

good post; even TV cops try first to talk and calm down a suspect...

the guy was not in a crowded place, he was surrounded by metal streetcar walls, sealing him in, so to speak

I don't get it, unless the cop later claims there was a bomb in his backpack  or something crazy like that, but even then, clear out the area and seal it off ...

 

 

He will claim the guy started to come at him. If a guy has a knife and is less than 25 feet from you, he will stab you before you can shoot him if he comes at you. (mythbusters actually just tested this) 

So the only safe claim is he thought or saw he was starting to come at him with the knife and he reacted.

And the taser guy just reacted more slowly (or had to draw the taser and then fire) which is why he was tasered after being shot.

 

I cant see any other defense other than panic and fear which would explain why no one else there fired their gun which you would think they would have done if he really had started coming at them

Goggles Pissano

Why can police officers from other countries be able to handle a kid with a knife without resorting to a gun while Canadian officers cannot?  And why is no one questioning the lack of disciplinary action of the officer who discharged the taser gun well after the fact on a kid who was already down and possibly dead?

Goggles Pissano

I am so thankful that someone had a video of what happened.  I only wish that the person had waited a week or two before posting the video.  That way we would be able to find out if the police version of what happened matched what was recorded on video.

Bacchus

Was I wrong that all cops involved in a shooting are suspended with pay? According to the Police Union I am

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I was reading a police release about the murderer,I mean,officer who shot this kid and I almost puked...They had to emphasize the fact that he's a 'family man' and the 'father of a new born baby'...It's as if this officer is the real victim.

I usually frown on union busting but the Brotherhood has to go.

 

 

Goggles Pissano

alan smithee wrote:

I was reading a police release about the murderer,I mean,officer who shot this kid and I almost puked...

Go ahead and puke.  Get it all out.  You will have everyone's blessing for it is most warranted.

What is the name of the officer who impulsively discharged the taser gun on a dead kid?  And why has he not been suspended?

There were TWO trigger happy officers on the scene who were both surrounded by a swarm of other officers on duty. Simply focusing on the one officer is not enough.

The media has been conspicuously silent about the taser gun operator. I know that it is far less extreme than the cold blooded sociopathic murder, but it is just another impulsive and flagrant misuse of a taser gun not long after the Braidwood Inquiry into taser gun misuse by police officers.

Paladin1

It doesn't have anything to do with the police using excessive force but is it true this man initially pulled a knife on a female passenger and made sexually threatening gestures to her?

 

I haven't read too too much about this story. Personally I carry a decent sized pocket knife. If the police are speaking to me I will inform the police I'm carrying a knife and twist my hips to show them where it is.  I'd like to think if I had a knife in my hand and there were police around I would drop it right away, is there any references of someone being so scared that they don't think to drop what's in their hand when confronted by police?  If this mans blood pressure was up and adrenaline was going he might not even realized what he was doing.

 

I know people think all police carry tasers but in my home town only supervisors do, I wonder which police on the scene had tasers.

Bacchus

Paladin in Toronto only supervisors and ETF have tasers

Bacchus

I listened to one of the passengers on the streetcar being interviewed and he said the guy was threatening people after one woman screamed and ran to the front. He moved towward the passengers with the knife and his arm stuck out straight with it. He demanded no one leave but everyone fled accord to the wtiness and the cameras show him being the last passenger to leave, then the driver then after a minute the cops and shots. Another witness(the one with the original video posted to youtube) said the kid was taunting the cops while they yelled at him to drop it. But they do not say what he said so how do they know it was a taunt?

 

The taser user may have just been slow on the draw, acting independantly of the shooter (and would have been a supervisor since regular cops dont get tasers)

NDPP

Officer Suspended in Shooting of Sammy Yatim Identified (and vid)

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=975599&playlistId=1.1389913&binId...

"CTV has learned the identity of the police officer involved in the shooting of 18-year-old Sammy Yatim. James Forcillo is described as a family man.."

 

If Police Handled Sammy Yatim Situation 'By the Book', Then We Need to Rewrite the Book   -  by Chris Selley

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/07/30/if-police-handled-sammy-yatim-by...

"...An agitated man with a three-inch blade should not have posed sufficient threat of grievous bodily harm to any one of the gaggle of officers on the scene - collectively armed with knees, fists, batons, pepper spray and at least one Taser, for any of them to open fire.

If what happened was anything close to by the book, then we need to rewrite the book.."

NDPP

Knife-Wielding Yatim Told People to Stay on Streetcar, Witness Says

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/07/30/sammy-yatim-streetcar-shooting_n...

"Sammy Yatim was holding a knife when he ordered people not to leave a Toronto streetcar, says  a young man who used a bicycle as a buffer between himself and the teen, who was subsequently shot by police..

Kaitlin McNabb Kaitlin McNabb's picture

Thanks for the info and reports Bacchus

Aristotleded24

[url=http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2013/07/31/montreal-cote-st..., down the street in Montreal:[/url]

Quote:
A 20-hour standoff between police and a 72-year-old man holed up in a Côte Saint-Luc, Que., home ended just after 8 a.m. ET after he was shot with a rubber bullet and taken into custody.

Const. Daniel Lacoursière said Wednesday morning that the man was taken into custody by a police tactical unit without incident.

The man did not have any apparent injuries, but was taken to hospital for evaluation, he said.

Keep in mind that the suspect in this case had actuallly fired at police and was a threat, but was taken alive. The young man in Toronto was not.

Food for thought.

Paladin1

Bacchus wrote:

I listened to one of the passengers on the streetcar being interviewed and he said the guy was threatening people after one woman screamed and ran to the front. He moved towward the passengers with the knife and his arm stuck out straight with it. He demanded no one leave but everyone fled accord to the wtiness and the cameras show him being the last passenger to leave, then the driver then after a minute the cops and shots. Another witness(the one with the original video posted to youtube) said the kid was taunting the cops while they yelled at him to drop it. But they do not say what he said so how do they know it was a taunt?

 

The taser user may have just been slow on the draw, acting independantly of the shooter (and would have been a supervisor since regular cops dont get tasers)

It sounds like he was trying to take hostages or something.  Pretty scary stuff I'm glad no bystanders were hurt either by the man weilding the knife or stray bullets.

 

I wonder if issuing "beat cops" tasers would result in less shooting deaths, an over use of tasers or maybe a combination of both.

Unionist

Paladin1 wrote:

It sounds like he was trying to take hostages or something. 

Just what I was thinking - and then either randomly kill the hostages, or else possibly try to ransom them off in exchange for caches of WMD.

Quote:
Pretty scary stuff I'm glad no bystanders were hurt either by the man weilding the knife or stray bullets.

Same here! As luck would have it, the only casualty was the perp himself! All in all, a pretty clean operation.

 

Paladin1

Unionist wrote:

 

Just what I was thinking - and then either randomly kill the hostages, or else possibly try to ransom them off in exchange for caches of WMD.

Ya exactly! All the WMDs that Bush smuggeled out of Iraq and in to Canada, this guy obviously new about them and wanted to get his hands on them to commit TERRORIST ACTS.

Quote:

Same here! As luck would have it, the only casualty was the perp himself! All in all, a pretty clean operation.

 

You bet! All in a days work for our underpaid noble great fair and just guardians of peace and freedom, right?

Goggles Pissano

I wonder how the English bobbies would have handled the situation since they do not carry firearms and therefore do not shoot people?  I also wonder how many bobbies have been seriously injured since they do not carry firearms?  Are their death rates higher than elsewhere?

Bacchus

Actually they shoot a fair number of people and a lot of them actually have guns.  Plus the UK has a fair amount of gun crime

NDPP

Did Sammy Yatim Beg For Chance to Call His Dad? (and vid)  -  by Joe Warmington

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/07/30/did-sammy-yatim-beg-for-chance-to-c...

"...Jim Yatim says he has had no luck getting answers about the final moments on the streetcar. 'The police are hiding behind the SIU, the TTC is hiding behind the police,' said Jim. 'Other than the press, nobody seems to be asking anything.'

New, more enhanced video of a police officer shooting into an already shot and appearing lifeless Sammy on the floor is sickening to watch, but necessary for those trying to determine why shots were fired and why so many..."

 

There Have Been Some Troubling Responses To Sammy Yatim's Death  -  by Patrick McGuire (and vid)

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/there-have-been-some-troubling-responses-...

"...For six of the nine shots fired at Sammy Yatim, the 18-year-old was already on the ground. With this in mind, I have to ask, why did James Forcillo continue to fire at a downed teenager, in a crowded area of a residential neighbourhood?"

NDPP

shartal@rogers.com wrote:
Remember Edmond Yu?

 

Sammy Yatim is Edmond Yu: Fiorito

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/07/31/sammy_yatim_is_edmond_yu_fior...

"...Here is the text of recommendation number 12 made by the coroner's jury after the inquest into Edmond Yu's death..."

NDPP

Sammy Yatim: Teen Torn Between Two Cultures Friends Say

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/07/30/sammy_yatim_syrian_teen_tor...

"The family, who called the shooting 'a nightmare we can't wake up from,' will hold a viewing Wednesday at 6PM at the Highland Funeral Home, 3280 Shepherd Avenue East.

His funeral will follow at 11 am.."

Aristotleded24

Somewhat off topic, the Winnipeg Police Service introduced a [url=http://winnipeg.ca/policerecruiting/cadet/]cadet[/url] program some time back. They work more along the lines of directing traffic at accident scenes, foot patrols, and guarding mental health patients deemed "low risk." They aren't armed. They seem to be well received, and many eventually to on to become full fledged police officers. I wonder if an arrangement like this would be useful, basically to get the cadets used to communicating, and hopefully weeding out the worst ones before they cause too much damage?

Paladin1

I like that idea. Sorta like a probation right? Give them a year working with people to get a better feel for their temperment.

 

Have there been any updates on this case?  Any explination for shooting and tasering a man who was already shot and on the ground?

Francesca Allan

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Somewhat off topic, the Winnipeg Police Service introduced a [url=http://winnipeg.ca/policerecruiting/cadet/]cadet[/url] program some time back. They work more along the lines of directing traffic at accident scenes, foot patrols, and guarding mental health patients deemed "low risk."

"Guarding" mental health patients? Is this in the hospital or outside? Are they being guarded from harm or are they being guarded from doing harm? And how does a patient get deemed "low risk"? The psychiatric stats on violence predictability are running at about 50%.

NDPP

Groups Rally to Call For Action on Police Shootings (and vid)

http://www.cp24.com/news/groups-rally-to-call-for-action-on-police-shoot...

Rally in progress at Toronto Police headquarters..

 

arielc

YESSS!!!!!! :D

[url=http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/toronto-officer-charged-in-connectio... officer charged in connection with streetcar shooting[/url]

A Toronto police officer has been charged with second-degree murder in connection with the fatal shooting of a teenager aboard a streetcar last month.An arrest warrant has been issued for Const. James Forcillo, Ontario’s Special Investigations Unit said in a statement Monday morning.

 

Bacchus

I am shocked, please but yet skeptical any conviction will happen

 

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Wow.

6079_Smith_W

Sorry to talk like a conspiracy theorist, but do you think they took notes from the George Zimmerman trial? Why not lay a show-stopper of a charge, so long as there is little chance that it is going to stick?

... and they get that extra point when people start screaming about the end of civilization if police can't be free to protect us.

As for those who are happy to see this charge, well, perheps they'll be mollified by knowing that the prosecuters tried really really hard.

arielc

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Sorry to talk like a conspiracy theorist, but do you think they took notes from the George Zimmerman trial? Why not lay a show-stopper of a charge, so long as there is little chance that it is going to stick?

That thought occurred to me too, and the possibility of an insanity defence.
We'll see how it plays out.

Unionist

I'll be satisfied if they just treat him like any normal worker - suspend him without pay pending the end of the judicial process. That will make the rest of the armed thugs think twice. Haven't seen any report on that aspect yet - has anyone?

ETA: Actually, if a worker were charged with a murder which had no connection with their employment, whether remanded or not, they would immediately be suspended without pay. If the employer had enough information (not proof of criminal guilt - just on a "balance of probabilities") to determine that the worker had committed a serious work infraction, they could fire the worker then and there. In this case, that's obviously an option open to the police services. But suspension without pay would be automatic in the real world.

 

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