TO-TTC Shooting: "This Doesn't Sound Like Something That Should Be Happening in a Free Society."

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NDPP

We'll See If Blue Wall Appears

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/08/19/well-see-if-blue-wall-appears

"...It will be particularly interesting to watch since not only is Forcillo part of the police brotherhood, he is also a former court officer too..."

arielc

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Sorry to talk like a conspiracy theorist, but do you think they took notes from the George Zimmerman trial? Why not lay a show-stopper of a charge, so long as there is little chance that it is going to stick?

That's becoming clearer, though there are options:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2013/08/19/f-forcillo-yatim-...
Selwyn Pieters, a Toronto lawyer with considerable experience representing the families of people shot by police, told CBC News that while a charge of second-degree murder does leave the judge and jury with a number of options, including opting for a less charge, he thinks the charge in Forcillo's case should have been manslaughter.

"It's going to be a more difficult hurdle for the Crown to surmount if it's second degree," Pieters said. He described prosecuting this case as a "Herculean task."

arielc

They do convict police in Thailand:

[url=http://www.thestarphoenix.com/touch/story.html?id=8814604]
Thai policeman who killed Calgary backpacker Leo Del Pinto in January 2008 has been sentenced to 37½years in prison for murder.
[/url]

NDPP

Sammy Yatim: 8 Of 9 Bullets Heard On Video Hit 18 Year Old on TTC Streetcar (and vid)

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/08/22/sammy_yatim_shot_eight_time...

"Const. James Forcillo facing charges, 'is the one that's going to have to answer why he shot nine times', says a former police trainer.."

NDPP

Fear, Chaos Heard in Sammy Yatim Shooting (and vid)

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/10/22/fear-chaos-in-sammy-yatim-shooting-...

"...Yatim turned to ask if he had a phone.

'Yeah I do. You want to call someone?' Seymour asked.

'My dad,' Yatim replied. 'There's something going on. I don't know what the fuck it is.'

Forcillo and his partner Const Iris Fleckeisen arrived at midnight. There's no sign from the video that they tried to talk to anyone or assess the scene.

Buried in the midst of all the compelling photos, one particularly tragic one stood out; a simple toggle switch above the headlight on Streetcar 4058.

One flick, court heard, and it would have shut the streetcar doors."

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:

Buried in the midst of all the compelling photos, one particularly tragic one stood out; a simple toggle switch above the headlight on Streetcar 4058.

One flick, court heard, and it would have shut the streetcar doors."

I'm curious what's the significance of this?  Who should have flipped it?  The driver, to trap himself inside with Yatim?  Or Yatim, who, like 99.99999% of commuters would have no idea which switch to flip to close the doors?

NDPP

The switch is on the outside above the headlight.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Ah, OK.  I'll just smack my own forehead now. :0

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I don't know what to make of this incident. The officers surely acted with overkill but what was going through Yatim's mind,walking around with his dick out and holding a knife. Seems to me like a psychotic episode.

It's been a couple years. What exactly happened to the cop that shot him 8 times..or the other cop that tased his dying body?

Paid vacations?

 

 

NDPP

see #85

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
but what was going through Yatim's mind,walking around with his dick out and holding a knife

Don't call this a "diagnosis", but "suicide by cop" might be a reasonable possibility.

That said, I hope Forcillo walks.

From the prisoner's dock, to the Prisoner Transfer Van.  And then walks around "the yard", because apparently even prisoners need exercise.

Brachina

Bacchus wrote:

I listened to one of the passengers on the streetcar being interviewed and he said the guy was threatening people after one woman screamed and ran to the front. He moved towward the passengers with the knife and his arm stuck out straight with it. He demanded no one leave but everyone fled accord to the wtiness and the cameras show him being the last passenger to leave, then the driver then after a minute the cops and shots. Another witness(the one with the original video posted to youtube) said the kid was taunting the cops while they yelled at him to drop it. But they do not say what he said so how do they know it was a taunt?

 

The taser user may have just been slow on the draw, acting independantly of the shooter (and would have been a supervisor since regular cops dont get tasers)

 Its ironic, you'd think regular cops would get the taser and guns would be reserved for supervisors.

 

 The moral of the story is if you don't want to get shot, DON'T TRY AND STAB COPS. 

Maybe the cops should have handle it differently, but it doesn't change the fact that he was weilding a potentially dangerous weapon against people, cops, and when human beings are threaten, instincts for survival can come out. 

 If you want the go to method for self defence to be less lethal, you need to take the guns away from police except in special certstances. Like they do in many parts of the world.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

No wonder the NDP can't win an election. Its stalwarts side with the staus quo and praise the police and military whenever possible. To bad the voters they should be thinking of representing belong to the underclass who actually feel the repression that our system rains down on people who are not middle class. Going for the military and police vote is a good strategy for any right wing party but not so much for a party of the people.

Hell forget pointing a knife at the police don't even pick up a stapler because the instinct to kill for self preservation is so strong in our police forces. If citizens don't obey fast enough or sass the cops while being defiant that is enough to trigger a lethal respones. 

We are all James McIntyre

Aristotleded24

Brachina wrote:
The moral of the story is if you don't want to get shot, DON'T TRY AND STAB COPS. 

Maybe the cops should have handle it differently, but it doesn't change the fact that he was weilding a potentially dangerous weapon against people, cops, and when human beings are threaten, instincts for survival can come out.

Oh come on, by the time the cops were on the scene he was by himself in the street car, so the level of danger to the public was reduced. Why didn't they call in a hostage negotiatior to try and talk him down? Magoo has a history of giving police the benefit of the doubt in these situations, and even he is hoping that Forcillo experiences consequences.

Furthermore, many people on the bad end of police mistreatment were doing something that warranted police intervention in the first place, and police misconduct is often excused on the basis of "the police wouldn't have done that if the crime hadn't been committed." This is technically true, but it doesn't give the cops carte blanche to do whatever they want.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
The moral of the story is if you don't want to get shot, DON'T TRY AND STAB COPS.

Except Yatim wasn't trying stab a cop.  In fact, it doesn't sound like he was making a particularly earnest effort to stab anyone.

Apropos of nothing, I can pretty much see the scene where this happened from my front porch.  If I'd been sitting in my living room when it happened I'd have heard the shots with my own ears.

Paladin1

kropotkin1951 wrote:

 

Hell forget pointing a knife at the police don't even pick up a stapler because the instinct to kill for self preservation is so strong in our police forces.

 

Seriously? You don't see a difference betweena large knife and a  a stapler?

Unionist

Paladin1 wrote:

Seriously? You don't see a difference betweena large knife and a  a stapler?

You misunderstand.

It's the brain-dead, bred-for-violence, totally unaccountable-to-the-public police who can't tell the difference between a large knife, a stapler, an Uzi, an indigenous person, a homeless person, a young person... They all get the same treatment.

Thanks for trying to teach us the distinction, though. I take it you'd support a large-knife registry?

 

Paladin1

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
The moral of the story is if you don't want to get shot, DON'T TRY AND STAB COPS.

Except Yatim wasn't trying stab a cop.  In fact, it doesn't sound like he was making a particularly earnest effort to stab anyone.

For perspective I can cover 10.9 feet in a second and I'm pushing 200 lbs.  It's been a while since I seen the video but I do recall there was a lot of intent including Yatim threatening men and women in a confined space as well as ordering them to stay put, which to me is trying to take hostages and hold people against their will.   There's also numerous videos available on youtube that show just how quick and dangerous someone can be with a knife, as well as how fast they can close the distance to an armed officer. 

Paladin1

Unionist wrote:

Paladin1 wrote:

Seriously? You don't see a difference betweena large knife and a  a stapler?

You misunderstand.

It's the brain-dead, bred-for-violence, totally unaccountable-to-the-public police who can't tell the difference between a large knife, a stapler, an Uzi, an indigenous person, a homeless person, a young person... They all get the same treatment.

Thanks for trying to teach us the distinction, though. I take it you'd support a large-knife registry?

 

 

Depends what you consider a large knife.  Ironically I traded my Samurai Sword for a 9mm pistol but I still have a few knives with large blades so I probably wouldn't support a knife registry.

Plus I was considering a cooking course at the local college, I wonder if chef's would have to register their knives? Will police start inspecting our kitchens?

 

I agree totally with your point, there's officer that can't tell the difference between a large knife and something much less lethal. Police need much more (expensive) continium of force training.  My point of contention are the people who try to argue police should shoot guns out of the hands of bad guys or use a taser when the person has a firearm.

NDPP

It was murder. Pure and simple. As a citizenry control over the police is of paramount importance as is rendering outrage and correction when it runs amok as it did here. G20 should have taught us this as well. Too bad the police chief responsible is going to Parliament instead of going to jail. But then that's always been the way in hogtown and the Dominion both. From sea to shining sea.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
For perspective I can cover 10.9 feet in a second

Down some steps, or on flat ground?

Quote:
There's also numerous videos available on youtube that show just how quick and dangerous someone can be with a knife, as well as how fast they can close the distance to an armed officer.

If that officer has his/her gun drawn, a round chambered, safety off, and pointing directly at the person with the gun then I really don't see how the person with the knife can possibly be faster than just pulling that trigger.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Paladin1 wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Hell forget pointing a knife at the police don't even pick up a stapler because the instinct to kill for self preservation is so strong in our police forces.

Seriously? You don't see a difference betweena large knife and a  a stapler?

I can, its just the RCMP that have a problem with it. They are scared of everything, just ask them they'll tell you how scary a stapler can be and how it triggers them to attack.

They sure as hell don't try to emulate Sam Steele.  Shot to kill at the first sign of trouble never used to be aceptable for our police forces.

Quote:

An RCMP officer has testified he was sure Robert Dziekanski intended to harm the Mounties called to Vancouver's airport in October 2007.

Const. Gerry Rundel told the public inquiry into the death of Dziekanski that the stapler the Polish man was holding could have been used as a weapon against the officers or members of the public.

Rundel testified earlier this week that he feared for his safety when Dziekanski turned toward the officers clenching the stapler

However, several other civilian witnesses who watched Dziekanski before police arrived have testified they were not afraid of him. 

The officer was testifying at the Braidwood inquiry in Vancouver.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/stapler-could-be-a-weapon...

Paladin1

NDPP wrote:

It was murder. Pure and simple.

i realize its 2015 Twitter and Facebook have their own courts, which can even impact the physical justice system, but it's not always pure and simple.

For example there are provisions where a police officer can legally shoot an unarmed fleeing suspect in the back.

 

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
For perspective I can cover 10.9 feet in a second

Down some steps, or on flat ground?

Flat ground lol I suspect down stairs would be faster.

Quote:

If that officer has his/her gun drawn, a round chambered, safety off, and pointing directly at the person with the gun then I really don't see how the person with the knife can possibly be faster than just pulling that trigger. 

You would be surprised I think.  Reaction time isn't instantious and it can be a lot slower than people might expect. When someone is "in the red" or "in the black" they're going to be shaking with adrenaline and lost fine motor skills which has a detrimental impact on marksmanship.

Non-Tactical police teams don't recieve all that much training with this stuff. As well there is considerable skill fade when an officer  goes 9 months without any sort of training or exposure to a situation like this and is then dropped into the shit.  We COULD train police officers to a much much higher level but it's going to cost a lot of money, take them off the street while they training (meaning the department hires more officers or pays officers more overtime).

 

I'm actually very critical of police. They get paid a lot of money and have such a huge impact on someones life. Physically, emotionally, financially and socially. I think they (along with politicians) need to be held to the highest standards and when they make mistakes recieve the maxium level of pubishment/diciplinary action against them.

NDPP

TPD is well paid. One of the highest paid police forces in the world. The kid was on an empty streetcar. There was no need or cause for it to happen the way it did. Review the videos upthread and I think you'll agree that this is a bad one. I agree with your conclusions.

Paladin1

kropotkin1951 wrote:

 

I can, its just the RCMP that have a problem with it. They are scared of everything, just ask them they'll tell you how scary a stapler can be and how it triggers them to attack.

 

Sorry. That's a great example and I can't disagree very much.  Use of force can be tricky and not cut and dry. What wouldn't be considered threatening to me physically could very well be considered threatening to a 98 pound female officer and vice versa.

 

I just watched the video. It's hard for me to find sympathy because he was told by the police, while being surrounded by the police, after threatening a bunch of people, to drop the knife in which he didn't comply.  That said it looks like he spooked the officer and they opened fire. He could have charged forward and attacked the police but after seeing the video I don't think it was likely.

Shooting him on the ground looked like attempted murder to me. I don't know the police's specific policy on use of force and how to treat wounded but armed assailants.  To me it looks like spooked scared cops with little experience and training.

Unionist

Looks to me like thugs with guns who are given permission to use them with no consequences.

 

Aristotleded24

Paladin1 wrote:
For example there are provisions where a police officer can legally shoot an unarmed fleeing suspect in the back.

Really? I thought the only ethical time an officer can shoot at someone is if (s)he has reasonable grounds to fear someone's life is in iminent danger, and that a fleeing suspect does not constitue a threat of harm. There was actually a case here in Winnipeg where police officers were acquitted after shooting a fleeing suspect in the buttocks after the Professional Standards Branch charged them.

Brachina

kropotkin1951 wrote:

No wonder the NDP can't win an election. Its stalwarts side with the staus quo and praise the police and military whenever possible. To bad the voters they should be thinking of representing belong to the underclass who actually feel the repression that our system rains down on people who are not middle class. Going for the military and police vote is a good strategy for any right wing party but not so much for a party of the people.

Hell forget pointing a knife at the police don't even pick up a stapler because the instinct to kill for self preservation is so strong in our police forces. If citizens don't obey fast enough or sass the cops while being defiant that is enough to trigger a lethal respones. 

We are all James McIntyre

 I'm not a Stalwart of the NDP, I don't deserve that title.

 And answering my balanced statement with hyperbole achieves nothing. 

 I'm not an apologist for for the police or the military, I merely see them as flawed human beings like the rest of us, its only being looking at both sides that we can fix what's wrong with the system. 

 That why I suggested that regular police officers shouldn't wear lethal weapons on thier person except in special situations. 

 And we need better training as well, training and research on dealing with unconscious bias, training that doesn't make people defensive or feel vilified, but rather based on quality psychology, athropology, socialogy, neurology, ect..., and only on unbiased quality research.

NDPP

Crown Accuses Police of Misleading Jury and 'Circling Wagons' To Back Sammy Yatim's Killer: DiManno

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/01/08/crown-accuses-police-of-misle...

"Milan Rupic wraps up Crown's summation Friday by denouncing officers' 'shameless and deliberate false testimony' in defence of constable who shot and killed Sammy Yatim."

Not just in USA do such things happen...

NDPP

CBC: "Head of Toronto police union calls James Forcillo verdict 'shocking'; says sends 'chilling' message to front-line officers."

Police have far too much political power in Toronto. Politicians afraid to restrain them. G20, Yatim should be a wake-up call...

NDPP

BREAKING: Forcillo Found Guilty of Attempted Murder in 2013 Death of Sammy Yatim

http://www.cp24.com/news/forcillo-found-guilty-of-attempted-murder-in-20...

"A Toronto police officer has been found guilty of attempted murder in the shooting death of a teen on an empty streetcar."

 

Cops Toe Thin Blue Line in the James Forcillo Trial - by Enzo Dimatteo

https://nowtoronto.com/news/cops-toe-thin-blue-line-james-forcillo/

"As the jury begins deliberations the disturbing whiff of a cover-up hangs over the case of the Toronto cop charged in the 2013 killing of Sammy Yatim. After 3 months of often conflicting police testimony, here's a look at the more troubling revelations..."

Sammy Yatim's Chilling Final Moments

https://youtu.be/dx2iQnYMQfM

Murder By Police. Not 'Attempted'

News on Sammy Yatim

https://twitter.com/hashtag/sammyyatim

 

monty1

It's not something that should be happening in a free society. It's what happens to our south in the land of the gun. And it's taken Harper many years to make us more like them. 

Now's the time for the Liberals and the NDP to come together and make some drastic changes to bring us back to something that resembles a socially responsible form of capitalism. That's what the US calls socialism. Pretty much what Bernie Sanders wants and Canada has traditionally been all about before the Cons.

Paladin1

There's too many examples in North America of police getting away with murder.

To me when a cop shoots someone then walks over to the body and drops a gun they should be sent to jail. Instead we see them suspended with pay.  I'm told that's due to powerful police unions (perhaps Unionist could shed light on that?) but when there is video evidence of this shit to me it's a pretty shut case.

There's way too many examples of police giving drastically different stories, changing stories or getting caught out right lying and keeping their jobs.

If a cop says he seen me go through a stopsign and I didn't, I'm the one getting a fine no if's and's or buts about it. It's time we hold officers to a higher standard.  I wish i could find the expose on police in the TO area getting caught for DUIs, DUIs on the job, domestic assaults and such and having it swept under the rug.

NDPP

Explaining the Verdict in the Forcillo Trial

http://www.cp24.com/news/explaining-the-verdict-in-the-forcillo-trial-1....

"While Const. James Forcillo was found guilty on one of the charges in connection with Sammy Yatim's dath, the verdict left some people scratching their heads. Here's a quick primer to explain the charges..."

If convicted in similar circumstances, most of us would go to prison. In Toronto Forcillo gets 'suspended with pay.'

 

Sammy Yatim's Mother Released a Statement Through Her Lawyer

https://t.co/urXu6UHIvL

"For me, it's the first step. I would now like to be part of the discussion to change the police training policies when dealing with people in crisis so this painful incident does not repeat again.."

Maysie Maysie's picture

Despicable.

Forcillo will not spend time in jail.

No justice for Sammy Yatim.

NDPP

Yatim Family Lawyer Julian Falconer on TO Police

https://t.co/QdroUyu0Lq

"Shooting someone like a dog in the street...today should be a shameful day."

Pondering

https://nowtoronto.com/news/cops-toe-thin-blue-line-james-forcillo/

But amid all the flabbergasting evidence, the question has to be asked if frontline officers need to be disarmed. Most Toronto police officers will never draw their guns, let alone use them, during their careers. Most police officers in Great Britain do not carry guns.

But in Toronto, despite coroner's inquest after coroner's inquest calling for changes in police training, people in crisis keep getting shot and killed. 

The circumstances surrounding the Yatim shooting are particularly tragic, but it's an event we should have seen coming. In the two years prior, 15 people were shot by Toronto police, seven fatally. In most of those instances, the victim was carrying a knife or scissors. In only one instance was the officer injured.

This doesn't make sense.

The Toronto police service has purchased 51 patrol carbines, high-power assault rifles that will be distributed to each of the city’s 17 police divisions and available to frontline officers.....

The force has purchased the C8 patrol carbines — a military style semi-automatic gun — to be paired with the “less lethal” sock-guns currently being sent to each division, Toronto police spokesperson Mark Pugash said Tuesday. The rollout of the weapons will be finished by the end of May.

The plan is to have three so-called sock guns, also known as beanbag guns, and three patrol carbines available in each division, 24 hours a day, in the same car. The sock gun and the rifle, Pugash said, will go “hand in hand.”

Toronto police Chief Mark Saunders has said the sock guns are particularly for use during interactions with people who are carrying weapons and experiencing a mental health crisis. They will be distinguished between regular shotguns by a bright coat of paint.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2016/01/19/toronto-police-purchase-51-...

Even in light of:

Following the 2014 shooting deaths of three RCMP constables in Moncton, New Brunswick, there was harsh criticism officers did not have the weaponry necessary to compete with convicted killer Justin Bourque’s M305 semi-automatic rifle. The Mounties only had their handguns and three shot guns; many law enforcement experts said the carbine may have levelled the playing field.

 

 

Paladin1

Pondering Ii may or may not be able to help.

I'm purely speculating about tasers and stabbings.  First and formost anyone with a knife or stabbing object is very dangerous. I say this because I've seen a number of comments over the years where people seem to suggest knives are no real threats to officers.

Regarding tasers, I'd have to double check but I seem to remember my cop friend telling me that only supervisors carry tasers. (not sure if that's in all departments).

So taking a guess if an officer shows up and someone has a knife and is an immediate threat or moves towards the officer or whatever they won't have a taser with them. They'll have pepper spray, batton maybe? and a pistol. Ofifcer pulls out a pistol and shoots the person.   IF the person however isn't agressive or basically in a stand off then maybe that's when the supervisor with the taser has time to show up. They try negeotiating and if that doesn't work then the supervisor tasers the person, no shots fired.

Again I'm purely speculating.

 

With regard to "sock guns" I think this is misleading. Those "less lethal sock guns" are the 12 gague shotguns (which the military also use) that the police are replacing with the C8 Carbines.  They're spraypainting them and loading in bean bag bullets.

There's an issue I see with this. Reading that article it looks like they will have shotguns and the sock guns (shotguns with bean bags) in the same vacinity to each other.  It may sound implausable but in a high stress situation it could be very easy for an officer to think they're grabbing the beanbag shotgun but actually grab the shotgun with slugs (big bullets that can take down a deer, bear or even moose).  Whoever is loading the guns can also easily screw up and put slugs into the bean bag gun so if and when an officer thinks they are going to shoot someone in the stomach with a bean bag they now have a softball sized hole missing out of their back.

 

I've seen the RCMP shooting by Justin Borque often cited why the RCMP need those C8 Carbines (based off an assault rifle minus the fullauto function).  The thing is the gun Borque used has a bullet that is at least 3 times heavier than what the C8 carbine shoots meaning it has greater distance and more energy (hits harder, more penetration).  With C8 Carbines I would argue they would still be at a pretty big disadvantage.

Another thing is that in shootings like this the suspect knows the police is coming and sets up an ambush. Police responding to the call would have to be forwarnedabout the suspect and the situation enough to make them decide to pull their rifles out and go to talk to the suspect.

 

Sorry if I took the context of what you were saying incorrectly and just blabbed away.

 

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