Toronto: Celebrate the Russian Revolution

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Nanuq

quote:


I can celebrate the original ideals of the Revolution. They were, and are, transcendent and beautiful.

The original ideals underlying capitalism are kind of nice too. Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations is a lovely paean to the power of the free market and how it would benefit society by keeping prices low and keeping people employed. The actual implementation of those ideals didn't work so well though. So does that mean that the original ideas were flawed or how they were applied in real life?

RosaL

quote:


Originally posted by Ken Burch:
[b]
What I can't understand now is why the rump CP's in various countries insist on defending the betrayals and corruptions of the Revolution, instead of recommitting themselves to the ORIGINAL ideals.

[ 10 November 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ][/b]


As far as I know, that's more or less what the various CPs are doing.

From the Program of the CP of Canada:

quote:

This partly explains, but does not justify, the way that the operations of the Party increasingly merged with the functions of the state, in particular with the administrative-bureaucratic apparatus which necessarily arose to centralize and tightly control the country's scarce and depleted resources. Nor do these difficult conditions justify the serious violations of socialist legality, purges, and serious crimes against innocent people.

quote:

All these negative developments reflected a degeneration of the central role of socialist democracy in the construction of a workers' state, and stunted the development of the political role of the working class and its allies in leading this transformation and the building of a new socialist society. Indeed, the violation of socialist democracy and legality was a major factor in eroding the people's participation in the government and in the state, and led to widespread cynicism and social alienation.

There was also a dogmatic ossification of theory ....


I could multiply examples endlessly from parties all over the world.

[ 11 November 2007: Message edited by: RosaL ]

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Sounds like the parties in other countries are doing better on this than the CPUSA, where Gus Hall, who lead the party from the early '60's until he finally died after bringing them to the shores of oblivion, issued a statement in 1991(note the date)saying that no major mistakes had been made in Eastern Europe.

Fidel

A survey was conducted in Russia in the late 1990's. To the statement "It would have been better if the country had stayed as it was before 1985," 58 percent answered "yes;" only 27 percent said "no." Economist magazine, December 18, 1999

Ken, the cold war is supposed to be over. Why, then, is the U.S. military still pushing for offensive missiles in Eastern Europe? Ken, can you think of one good reason for the U.S. to still have 730 military bases around the world and nuclear weapons stationed in countries other than your own? What's the deal here, who or what has you worried about another East Germany? Is this U.S. military incursion into those countries a positive thing for democracy in your opinion?

Or is it an admittal that a nuclear superpower other than the Soviets has been obssessed with world domination all along?

[ 11 November 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Fidel, you know I agree with you about all of that.
I've always denounced the US for its arrogance and its brutality.

For me, it's "Neither Moscow Nor Washington". I know it's a Trotskyist phrase, but they're right about this.

Fidel

I know that, Ken. However, I have read the odd argument which tends to suggest that countries like Cuba(and throw in whatever other iron curtain country) might have succeeded as democratic socialist nations had there been no Soviet military occupation. And I'm saying that it looks now as if they'd simply have been pounced on by NATO after a colour of the month revolution, CIA-fomented, inspired or otherwise.

I think people around the world basically know what they want and don't want. But I believe some of their wants and desires are rooted in what were cold war era fairy tales about living high lifestyles and endless consumption. The communists never delivered or even promised the glitz and shine-appeal of capitalism. Russians and Eastern Euros wanted the North American dream as it was in the 60's and 70's and especially the 1980's. What they got was a revolution from above and Milton Friedmanite reforms. They were economic reforms which even Richard Nixon decided were incompatible with his desire for re-election. In which case, Friedman's free market reforms were first viewed by Nixon as so incompatible with democracy that they should be forced on a country of people amid confusion and chaos. And remember, we haven't really experienced the same kinds of sweeping reforms that Chile did, or Argentina or Russia in the 1990's.

Mikhael Gorbachev wanted market socialism as it continues to exist in Sweden. And as Naomi Klein said in her book recently, shock doctrine has not always been exclusive domain of politically right-wing movements. I'm wondering if they aren't trying to bring down the financial world on purpose in order to foist sweeping economic changes right here at home base. I don't trust these starve the beast conservatives. I think capitalism is fascism with the mask on, and their long-time hidden fangs began showing again at the start of this decade.

Fidel

quote:


Originally posted by Ken Burch:
[b]
For me, it's "Neither Moscow Nor Washington". I know it's a Trotskyist phrase, but they're right about this.[/b]

Well from here on in it doesn't look like Moscow, Ken. Russia was paid a lot of attention from 1917 on for the next 70 years and still today. It seems no corner of the world is immune from being a strategic U.S. or allied corporate or military interest.

Trotsky and Zinoviev were busy fighting each other and then with Stalin. Trotsky thought western workers would go communist. Obviously that didn't happen. The capitalists realized the the the possibility for spread of communism to the west and: 1. caved in just enough to worker's and FDR's demands 2. began funding Hitler in the 1930's who, by wild coincidence, also hated Bolsheviks. I wonder how Trotsky would have handled the defiant Kulaks, the lack of Russian industry, the war in Spain, and all the while the massive buildup of Germany for what was obviously Hitler's raison d'etre, the coming war of annihilation against Soviet communism.

Adam T

Wow, celebrating an evil dictatorship?

Why don't we also celebrate the day the Nazis took power in Germany?

Fidel

quote:


Originally posted by Adam T:
[b]Why don't we also celebrate the day the Nazis took power in Germany?[/b]

Because we are not fascist sympathizers. And when it appeared that the corporate-sponsored war machine would fall short of lebensraum in Russia, the West started to support Red Army efforts to liberate Europe from the Nazis.

mayakovsky

My most respected
comrades of posterity!
Rummaging among
these days’
petrified crap,
exploring the twilight of our times,
you,
possibly,
will inquire about me too.

And, possibly, your scholars
will declare,
with their erudition overwhelming
a swarm of problems;
once there lived
a certain champion of boiled water,
and inveterate enemy of raw water.

Professor,
take off your bicycle glasses!
I myself will expound
those times
and myself.

I, a latrine cleaner
and water carrier,
by the revolution
mobilized and drafted,
went off to the front
from the aristocratic gardens
of poetry -
the capricious wench
She planted a delicious garden,
the daughter,
cottage,
pond
and meadow.

Myself a garden I did plant,
myself with water sprinkled it.
some pour their verse from water cans;
others spit water
from their mouth -
the curly Macks,
the clever jacks -
but what the hell’s it all about!
There’s no damming al this up -
beneath the walls they mandoline:
“Tara-tina, tara-tine,
tw-a-n-g...”
It’s no great honor, then,
for my monuments
to rise from such roses
above the public squares,
where consumption coughs,
where whores, hooligans and syphilis
walk.

Agitprop
sticks
in my teeth too,
and I’d rather
compose
romances for you -
more profit in it
and more charm.

But I
subdued
myself,
setting my heel
on the throat
of my own song.
Listen,
comrades of posterity,
to the agitator
the rabble-rouser.

Stifling
the torrents of poetry,
I’ll skip
the volumes of lyrics;
as one alive,
I’ll address the living.
I’ll join you
in the far communist future,
I who am
no Esenin super-hero.

My verse will reach you
across the peaks of ages,
over the heads
of governments and poets.

My verse
will reach you
not as an arrow
in a cupid-lyred chase,
not as worn penny
Reaches a numismatist,
not as the light of dead stars reaches you.

My verse
by labor
will break the mountain chain of years,
and will present itself
ponderous,
crude,
tangible,
as an aqueduct,
by slaves of Rome
constructed,
enters into our days.

When in mounds of books,
where verse lies buried,
you discover by chance the iron filings of lines,
touch them
with respect,
as you would
some antique
yet awesome weapon.

It’s no habit of mine
to caress
the ear
with words;
a maiden’s ear
curly-ringed
will not crimson
when flicked by smut.

In parade deploying
the armies of my pages,
I shall inspect
the regiments in line.

Heavy as lead,
my verses at attention stand,
ready for death
and for immortal fame.

The poems are rigid,
pressing muzzle
to muzzle their gaping
pointed titles.

The favorite
of all the armed forces
the cavalry of witticisms
ready
to launch a wild hallooing charge,
reins its chargers still,
raising
the pointed lances of the rhymes.
and all
these troops armed to the teeth,
which have flashed by
victoriously for twenty years,
all these,
to their very last page,
I present to you,
the planet’s proletarian.

The enemy
of the massed working class
is my enemy too
inveterate and of long standing.

Years of trial
and days of hunger
ordered us
to march
under the red flag.

We opened
each volume
of Marx
as we would open
the shutters
in our own house;
but we did not have to read
to make up our minds
which side to join,
which side to fight on.

Our dialectics
were not learned
from Hegel.
In the roar of battle
it erupted into verse,
when,
under fire,
the bourgeois decamped
as once we ourselves
had fled
from them.
Let fame
trudge
after genius
like an inconsolable widow
to a funeral march -
die then, my verse,
die like a common soldier,
like our men
who nameless died attacking!
I don’t care a spit
for tons of bronze;
I don’t care a spit
for slimy marble.
We’re men of kind,
we’ll come to terms about our fame;
let our
common monument be
socialism
built
in battle.
Men of posterity
examine the flotsam of dictionaries:
out of Lethe
will bob up
the debris of such words
as “prostitution,”
“tuberculosis,”
“blockade.”
For you,
who are now
healthy and agile,
the poet
with the rough tongue
of his posters,
has licked away consumptives’ spittle.
With the tail of my years behind me,
I begin to resemble
those monsters,
excavated dinosaurs.
Comrade life,
let us
march faster,
march
faster through what’s left
of the five-year plan.
My verse
has brought me
no rubles to spare:
no craftsmen have made
mahogany chairs for my house.
In all conscience,
I need nothing
except
a freshly laundered shirt.
When I appear
before the CCC
of the coming
bright years,
by way of my Bolshevik party card,
I’ll raise
above the heads
of a gang of self-seeking
poets and rogues,
all the hundred volumes
of my
communist-committed books.

-Vladimir Mayakovsky

Fidel

[img]http://members.aol.com/duvelle/nxp-zarya/ussr.gif[/img]

[url=http://www.zeenews.com/znnew/articles.asp?aid=340838&sid=WOR][b]USSR could have been saved -survey 2006[/b][/url]

quote:

Moscow, Dec 08: Fifteen years after the signing of a declaration by the three core republics of USSR on this day, disbanding the world`s second superpower, majority of Russians still believe their common homeland could have been saved. Gathering in a remote hunting lodge in Belovezhskaya Puscha forest near the Belarus capital of Minsk on December 8, 1991, the leaders of Russia Boris Yeltsin, Belarus` Stanislav Shushkevich and Ukraine`s Leonid Kravchuk declared that the USSR has ceased to exist as a "geopolitical reality" and denounced the 1922 Union Treaty, disbanding the Soviet Union. To replace it, they signed an agreement on the formation of the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS), two weeks later joined by other former republics of the Soviet Union.

68% of Russians
59% of Ukrainians
52% - Bielorussians

[b][i]"The USSR could have been saved"[/i][/b] -- Mikhael Gorbachev, 2006

Fidel

And as the commemorative month approaches, the Soviet iron curtain policies will again be hotly debated around the world. American [url=http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=15460]William Blum[/url] had this to say about the Berlin Wall:

Quote:

The Berlin Wall — Another Cold War Myth

Within a few weeks many of the Western media can be expected to turn on their propaganda machines to commemorate the 20th anniversary of the tearing down of the Berlin Wall, November 9, 1989. All the Cold War clichés about The Free World vs. Communist Tyranny will be trotted out and the simple tale of how the wall came to be will be repeated: In 1961, the East Berlin communists built a wall to keep their oppressed citizens from escaping to West Berlin and freedom. Why? Because commies don't like people to be free, to learn the "truth". What other reason could there have been?

First of all, before the wall went up thousands of East Germans had been commuting to the West for jobs each day and then returned to the East in the evening. So they were clearly not being held in the East against their will. The wall was built primarily for two reasons:

  1. The West was bedeviling the East with a vigorous campaign of recruiting East German professionals and skilled workers, who had been educated at the expense of the Communist government. This eventually led to a serious labor and production crisis in the East. As one indication of this, the New York Times reported in 1963: "West Berlin suffered economically from the wall by the loss of about 60,000 skilled workmen who had commuted daily from their homes in East Berlin to their places of work in West Berlin."[9]
  2. During the 1950s, American coldwarriors in West Germany instituted a crude campaign of sabotage and subversion against East Germany designed to throw that country's economic and administrative machinery out of gear. The CIA and other US intelligence and military services recruited, equipped, trained and financed German activist groups and individuals, of West and East, to carry out actions which ran the spectrum from terrorism to juvenile delinquency; anything to make life difficult for the East German people and weaken their support of the government; anything to make the commies look bad.

It was a remarkable undertaking. The United States and its agents used explosives, arson, short circuiting, and other methods to damage power stations, shipyards, canals, docks, public buildings, gas stations, public transportation, bridges, etc; they derailed freight trains, seriously injuring workers; burned 12 cars of a freight train and destroyed air pressure hoses of others; used acids to damage vital factory machinery;...etc

And Blum says he used to be an ardent anticommunist at that time when he worked for the US government. Fascinating.

 

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:
First of all, before the wall went up thousands of East Germans had been commuting to the West for jobs each day and then returned to the East in the evening. So they were clearly not being held in the East against their will.

... so eventually they just had no choice but to start shooting them.

Michelle

Exactly, Snert.

Well, all I can say is, I'm glad my grandparents managed to get the hell out of East Germany with my mother and aunt.  But even when they did it (before 1961), it was extremely risky.

Ghislaine

Snert wrote:

Quote:
First of all, before the wall went up thousands of East Germans had been commuting to the West for jobs each day and then returned to the East in the evening. So they were clearly not being held in the East against their will.

... so eventually they just had no choice but to start shooting them.

And the citizens desiring freedom and truth had no choice but to tear it down after CIA brainwashed them, right Fidel?

Michelle

Ghislaine, please don't put words in people's mouths.  That's a surefire way to start a flame war.

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

No doubt there was cold war "spy vs. spy" stuff going on in East Berlin...as it was in other parts of the world.

But the response to these problems by the authorities in the German Democratic Republic was...authoritarian.   I'm sorry, but ordering security personnel to "shoot to kill" unarmed civilians is a crime...even if it is done in the name of socialism.

The "left" is fully capable of being ruthless and authoritarian.   And in the end the cause of building a progressive society is damaged.

Stalinist crimes will continue to hold back the creation of an egalitarian and democratic society for decades to come.   The corporate propagandists will always be able to throw these crimes back in our collective faces.

 

 

 

 

KenS

Lordy, lordy, that piece of apologia for the Wall is really sad.

Quote:
First of all, before the wall went up thousands of East Germans had been commuting to the West for jobs each day and then returned to the East in the evening. So they were clearly not being held in the East against their will.

They didn't have to be held, because until the Wall went up people knew that there was no hurry, they could leave any time if they didn't really like the workers paradise.

Friend of mine and his brother were 2 of those many commuters from East Berlin to [factory] jobs in West Berlin. While the Wall was going up- with no explanation but none necessary- they talked about what they were going to do. Their parents wouldn't leave, but one day the brothers just didn't come back.

Among other things in that piece of bunk apologia is the myth that it was mostly professionals and skilled workers leaving the GDR.

Anyway, as we speak, I'm looking out the window at 3 crumbling sections of the Wall.

Fidel

Ghislaine wrote:

Snert wrote:

Quote:
First of all, before the wall went up thousands of East Germans had been commuting to the West for jobs each day and then returned to the East in the evening. So they were clearly not being held in the East against their will.

... so eventually they just had no choice but to start shooting them.

And the citizens desiring freedom and truth had no choice but to tear it down after CIA brainwashed them, right Fidel?

No where did I say that shooting anyone in East Germany was justified. While the East Germans were shooting thousands at the Wall, the US and allies, and their proxies in Latin America and beyond, were shooting tens and hundreds of thousands and torturing them to death. It was the cold war. And as William Blum says, East German workers and government officials had more to fear than just Stasi. Blum doesnt mention it specifically, but some of the acts of terrorism perpetrated in East Germany and other countries was orchestrated by Heinrich Himmler's former SS intel agents running the spy ops out of West Germany for the western world. Isn't democracy a wonderful thing? I feel like having a Kan of Koka Kola and singing something in less than perfect harmony.

Snert Snert's picture

I'm wondering, after reading item #1 of Blum's, above:  does Canada also need a wall?

We provide public schooling.  What if some Canadian wants to emigrate to another country, and rob us of the future value of the education we gave them?  A nice big wall (snipers optional) would both ensure that no Canadian could ever take the 3 R's and run, and would also assist other countries with doing the same by guaranteeing that Canada would never accept another immigrant (thereby robbing their birth country) ever again.

Any thoughts, Fidel?  Or anyone else who even remotely buys Blum's horseshit?  Should Canada also have a wall?  Or why not?

Michelle

Quote:

Among other things in that piece of bunk apologia is the myth that it was mostly professionals and skilled workers leaving the GDR.

Yup.  My grandfather was a barber.  My grandmother was a homemaker and, before having kids, did some sort of menial labour in hospitals.  I think they both had something like a grade 6 or 8 education - certainly no high school.

They got out while the getting was good.  And even when the getting was good (before the wall was entirely built) it was still pretty darn risky.  And I'm glad they did.

Fidel

What if the people next door started bombing our power dams and public buildings and killing Canadians, like the CIA has paid Cuban expatriates living in Florida to perpetrate against Cubans? And like the CIA and their hired mercenaries have done in countries like Nicaragua and Guatemala and El Salvador and Honduras in murdering hundreds of thousands?

Snert, would errecting a wall on the Can-Am border be a good idea in that situation?

Michelle

Did West Germany do that to East Germany?  I had no idea.

Fidel

More than just East Germany.

 

[url=http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA%20Hits/GehlenOrg_CIAHits.html]The Gehlen Org[/url] excerpt from the book The CIA's Greatest Hits

 

Quote:
One of the most important of all CIA operations began before the agency was even born. Many Nazi leaders realized they were going to lose World War II and started negotiating with the US behind Hitler's back about a possible future war against the USSR. In 1943, future CIA Director Allen Dulles moved to Bern, Switzerland to begin back-channel talks with these influential Nazis.

 

 

[url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9556]Operation Gladio: CIA Network of "Stay Behind" Secret Armies[/url] The "Sacrifice" of Aldo Moro

 

Quote:
Testifying in a court case trying four men accused of involvement in the 1969 bank bombing in Milan, General Gianadelio Maletti, former head of military counter-intelligence from 1971 to 1975, stated that his unit discovered evidence that explosives were supplied to a right wing Italian terrorist group from Germany, and that US intelligence may have aided in the transfer of explosives. He was quoted as saying that the CIA, "following the directives of its government, wanted to create an Italian nationalism capable of halting what it saw as a slide to the left and, for this purpose, it may have made use of rightwing terrorism," and that, "I believe this is what happened in other countries as well."

 

If the west is spying on you and perpetrating acts of terrorism with help from Hitler's former SS intelligence agency, what else can you do besides build a wall?

 

Snert Snert's picture

"They" don't want you to know, Michelle.

Quote:
Snert, would errecting a wall on the Can-Am border be a good idea in that situation?

If I'm reading your hypothetical correctly then such a wall could keep malevolent forces OUT.

Surely you're not going to suggest, with a straight face, that the Berlin wall was there to keep the West OUT. Or, if you are, maybe you could suggest why the border guards spent all of their ordnance murdering East Germans trying to leave, rather than West Germans scaling the wall with misbehaviour on their minds.

edited to add:  I'll ask the question again, Fidel.  Should Canada have a wall?  Not to keep out bombers and espionage agents and whatever you're rabbiting on about, but specifically to keep Canadians who have been schooled in Canada from emigrating to another country and robbing us of our investment?  Like Blum says about GDR.

That's a Yes or No question, by the way, not an invitation to say "Gladio" about something.

 

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:
what else can you do besides build a wall?

 

Shoot your own citizens if they climb it, evidently.

Fidel

That's an interesting point of view. And with a little more effort and help from our friends at the time, Himmler's SS and other ardent Nazis and war criminals who sought and received sanctuary from justice in West Germany, and in Britain and Canada and the USA, we could have taken the evol Sovietskys.

Snert Snert's picture

I'll make it as easy as I can for you.  Just select the phrase you agree with, copy it to the clipboard, and paste it into a post.  No typing needed.

 

I think Canada needs a wall, to keep our educated citizens from escaping.

 

I do not think Canada needs a wall, to keep our educated citizens from escaping.

Fidel

Well the way I see it, Snert, is that the Gladio gang are not bombing the power dams supplying America with massive, simply massive amounts of cheap electrical power.

"The Company" has no interest in bombing oil and natural gas pipelines delivering cheap Canadian fossil fuels to corporate America and killing Canadians in the process.  The Yanks have no plans for biting the hand that feeds them a free lunch when it comes to raw materials and energy, and the USsA's largest source of energy exports right here in Bananada.

So I can't see a real need for a wall between our two nations. Can anyone? It's an easy-peasy question for the cold war apologists in this thread for which I've half-ways already answered. At least I think I did.

Ghislaine

One would think supporting the need for the Berlin Wall is one of those arguments  about human rights that babble policy indicates is not going to be refought here. 

Fidel

Ghislaine wrote:

One would think supporting the need for the Berlin Wall ...

 

It's getting so as we don't need to say anything with colder war babblers posting the words for us. Congratulations, you've just made my list of special babblers.

Krago

Adam T wrote:
Wow, celebrating an evil dictatorship?

Why don't we also celebrate the day the Nazis took power in Germany?

Equating fascism with communism is highly offensive.

Under fascism, oppression and murder are an integral part of state policy.

Under communism, oppression and murder are never part of state policy, only state practice.

Ghislaine

Krago wrote:

 

Under communism, oppression and murder are never part of state policy, only state practice.

Then  the USSR, China and Cuba are fascist not communist? Glad you agree with me. 

Sven Sven's picture

Krago wrote:

Equating fascism with communism is highly offensive.

Equating communism with democracy is highly offensive.

j.m.

Sven wrote:

Krago wrote:

Equating fascism with communism is highly offensive.

Equating communism with democracy is highly offensive.

Equating any authoritarian modernism with democracy is highly numpty-ish. Or anything that von Hayek espouses.

Here's one right on the chin, Sven:

von Hayek wrote:
Well, I would say that, as long-term institutions, I am totally against dictatorships. But a dictatorship may be a necessary system for a transitional period. At times it is necessary for a country to have, for a time, some form or other of dictatorial power. As you will understand, it is possible for a dictator to govern in a liberal way. And it is also possible for a democracy to govern with a total lack of liberalism. Personally I prefer a liberal dictator to democratic government lacking liberalism.

 

Fidel

Sven wrote:

Krago wrote:

Equating fascism with communism is highly offensive.

Equating communism with democracy is highly offensive.

[url=http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,634122,00.html]Majority of Eastern Germans Feel Life Better under Communism[/url]

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

Equating communism with fascism is a STRATEGY, long term, to trivialize the results of World War 2, confuse people about what the two sides were, erase the results and lessons of that war, and, in so doing, make Nazi state policy of genocide against Jews and Slavs equivalent to the awful - but hardly genocidal - crimes of the Stalin Soviet regime of the same era.

Prior to the fall of the Soviet Union and the East Bloc states, the strategy was also oriented towards restoring the borders of pre-war states, restoring the Nazi borders, etc., etc..

 

A_J

N.Beltov wrote:
Equating communism with fascism is a STRATEGY, long term, to trivialize the results of World War 2, confuse people about what the two sides were . . .

To be fair, the confusion is understandable:

j.m.

Can we get a "who's who", A_J? Or someone else?

 

I've got Stalin, Joachim von Ribbentrop (Foreign Affairs Minister of Nazi government)...

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

A_J:

To be fair, the Nazis set about to physically exterminate all Jews and Slavs. Please identify the Stalin equivalent.

Sven Sven's picture

N.Beltov wrote:

A_J:

To be fair, the Nazis set about to physically exterminate all Jews and Slavs. Please identify the Stalin equivalent.

While the Nazis and the Communists certainly weren't identical in their evil (I'll grant you that), how about comparing the Nazis, the Communists, and the liberal democracies of Western Europe -- and, when looking at it through that lens, the Nazis and the Communists are, for practical purposes, nearly indistinguishable relative to those democracies.

There is not so much a left-right spectrum (with the left being the polar opposite of the right) but, instead, more of a circle where the extreme Left merges into the extreme right (and liberal democracies are 180 degrees away on the "other side" of the circle.

Fidel

I have to laugh how some people try to distinguish between us and them, as if the "liberal democracies" played no part in re-building Germany for war. Our great liberal democracies stood by and did nothing while Spanish democracy was overthrown with the help of Hitler, Mussolini, General Motors, Ford, and Studebaker, Dupont etc  Liberal democracies supported Chiang Kai-shek, too, and by the time Maoists chased him out of the country, he and his gangsters had already slaughtered ten million Chinese. The fascists which our liberal democracies and their corporate and financier partners supported or aided and abetted years before leading up to world war showed no signs of let up with the mass murder. And they would support the biggest mass murder since Adolf Hitler with Pol Pot and his Khmer Rouge years later. Our so called liberal democratists and their corporate friends have dealt with the devil.

Sven Sven's picture

Fidel wrote:

...as if the "liberal democracies" played no part in re-building Germany for war...

...as if the Communists played no part in helping the Nazi's focus on overrunning Western Europe...

 

Sven Sven's picture

Here's the thing: Whether we're talking about a fascist state or a communist state, an individual in such a state takes whatever the state gives that individual.  One-size-fits-all.  You don't like your state-made and state-provided boots, living quarters, clothes, etc., etc., etc.?  Tough.

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

Thanks for replying on behalf of A_J, Sven. You've made my point: trivializing the differences between the Nazis and the Soviet Communists helps to trivialize the results and lessons of World War 2. Those lessons are still important, despite the subsequent fall of the Soviet regime, and the weapons that now exist in the world would, if used, lead to what William Shirer (the author of The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich) described as a world of "no conquerers and no conquests, but only the charred bones of the dead on an uninhabited planet."

And you've been quoted those words already so I'm sure you remember them. Remember?

RosaL

Sven wrote:

Here's the thing: Whether we're talking about a fascist state or a communist state, an individual in such a state takes whatever the state gives that individual.  One-size-fits-all.  You don't like your state-made and state-provided boots, living quarters, clothes, etc., etc., etc.?  Tough.

Here's the thing: First let's make sure everyone has boots, living quarters, food, and clothes. Then we can worry about whether you want a different kind of heel or a glass shower door. 

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

A_J, you've not replied at all to my question. Are you happy with Sven's twists and turns and avoiding the question entirely?

 

Just wondering.

Sven Sven's picture

RosaL wrote:

Sven wrote:

Here's the thing: Whether we're talking about a fascist state or a communist state, an individual in such a state takes whatever the state gives that individual.  One-size-fits-all.  You don't like your state-made and state-provided boots, living quarters, clothes, etc., etc., etc.?  Tough.

Fashion is the least of my worries. First lets make sure everyone has boots, living quarters, and clothes. Then we can worry about whether you want a different kind of heel or a glass shower door. 

I'm not talking about fashion.  The boots don't fit or last?  Too bad.  You living quarters are crap?  Too bad.  Your clothes are shabby and poorly made?  Too bad.  You don't like the food we give you?  Then just fuck off.

That touches on the "freedom versus equality" spectrum I've discussed here before.  "Yeah, we're all equal, but as an individual, I have not choice -- I just have to take whatever the state gives me."

And that is true whether you live in a fascist or Communist state -- hence, their similarity.

RosaL

Sven wrote:

I'm not talking about fashion.  The boots don't fit or last?  Too bad.  You living quarters are crap?  Too bad.  Your clothes are shabby and poorly made?  Too bad.  You don't like the food we give you?  Then just fuck off.

That touches on the "freedom versus equality" spectrum I've discussed here before.  "Yeah, we're all equal, but as an individual, I have not choice -- I just have to take whatever the state give me.

Here's the thing: I'm way more interested in everyone having enough to live than in your having an array of consumer choices. If we have to choose between everyone has food, though not the best, and a few have good food and the rest live (and die) on the garbage heap, then I take the first. But I'm not convinced that's the choice anyway. 

Sven Sven's picture

N.Beltov, it's not so much twists and turns.  It's describing Communist reality.

If you got plopped down in a Communist country, you'd take whatever the state told you to take.  As an individual, you'd have no choice (other than whatever choice the state may allow you to have).

That may make everyone "equal" -- but it crushes individual autonomy and freedom.

Hence, the "freedom vs. equality" spectrum (and the similarity between the fascists and the Communists when compared to a liberal, free-market democracy).

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