Winnipeg - Mayor Katz turns down Aboriginal/North End Forum Invite

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ghoris

OK, I stand corrected. ;)

Re: WIN - they did quite well in 1989, IIRC. I think they even won a majority of council.  They didn't do quite as well in 1992 but that was largely because the Tories had chopped the number of wards in half which forced many WIN councillors to run against other incumbents.

I had never heard of the Civic Reform Coalition. I was always under the impression that prior to WIN, the left ran under the banner of the Civic NDP (or municipal NDP) while the pro-business right ran under the ICEC banner. Guys like Lawrie Cherniak and Magnus Eliason were elected as explicitly NDP candidates in the 1970s, unfortunately they were always distinctly in the minority. IIRC the NDP only managed 7/50 council seats in the first Unicity election, which admittedly was probably the result of a suburban backlash against Unicity itself. The ICEC evolved sometime in the 1980s into the more loosely-organized "Gang of 18", which WIN was formed to oppose.  Brian Corrin ran as an explictly NDP candidate for mayor in 1983 (and got thrashed by Norrie) and there was an organized NDP slate of council candidates in 1983 and 1986 (which also fared pretty poorly).  The ICEC (and its successor the Gang of 18) succeeded as a broad-based coalition of Tories, Liberals, business and development interests pushing a right-leaning, pro-business, pro-development agenda.  I would argue that the 'left' has only matched that success when it organizes itself into a similar broad-based coalition.  The problem with the WCC, as I see it, was really one of a lack of organization and direction, as opposed to being a doomed experiment from the start.

Aristotleded24

I wish Pagtakhan had been challenged. Who knows, a successful NDP challenge could have unseated him and provided more balance to council. The guy's useless. He's going to continue to suck up to Katz now.

Aristotleded24

So here are some ideas for where to go from here:

1 Increase the number of city wards in Winnipeg. At the very least, align ward boundaries among provincial constituencies. I'm not sure if there is any other city in Canada that elects fewer councillors than MLAs. This means that a city councillor has responsibility for more constituents than an MLA and without the attendant resources to respond appropriately. In my view, this should pave the way for a Metropolitan council, with each area electing its own mayor and council to deal with the little things (i.e. parks, snow removal) and the metropolitan government would take care of the bigger picture. Also, it would make it easier for challengers, as it would be less ground they had to cover. Speaking of challengers:

2 Introduce a party system for Winnipeg civic elections. Political parties are already up to their neck in municipal politics, let's be honest about that. It would also end the double-standard where Katz gets to criticize the NDP for taking over City Hall while being backed by Conservatives. It doesn't even have to be along the same lines as provincially, just get it out in the open.

3 CAN IT WITH ROBO-CALLS (sorry to shout but this is a pet-peeve of mine). It's basically telemarketing, and I don't know one person who likes receiving them. And telemarketers at least have the decency to make the effort to call you personally, it's so cheap to send a machine to talk to people. There's no dialogue, no engagement, just a machine telling you what to think. Additionally, if someone on the do-not-call list is picked up, that will just make them far more agitated and less likely to vote for you. It's far more effective to send a mass e-mail to your supporters saying, "tell 5 friends why you're voting for Judy and ask them to pass the message along," and the money saved could go to something else. I don't care who else does robo-calls, let them take the flack, while building up a grassroots network.

adma

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Ready for some good news?

[url=http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2010/10/27/mb-female-mayor-brand... elected its first ever left-of-cetnre mayor, and several councillors have gone down to defeat (one in third place).[/url]

Maybe even more interesting (at least from this distance) is that Inky Mark was defeated for the Dauphin mayoralty...

Aristotleded24

It also needs to be said that the 2 fringe candidates, Rav Gill and Brad Gross, were horrible candidates. Some of the criticism of the media about how they were ignored is fair, but given how polarized the race between the 2 front runners was, that was to be expected. When you are a fringe candidate, the advantage is you can basically say what you want, and you have more room to take on something big that really excites people. They offered the same gimmicks as the other 2 front runners, and were not up to the challenge.

jas

Aristotleded24 wrote:

So here are some ideas for where to go from here:

1. Increase the number of city wards in Winnipeg. At the very least, align ward boundaries among provincial constituencies. I'm not sure if there is any other city in Canada that elects fewer councillors than MLAs.

Vancouver only has 10 councillors. Has always been thus. In fact, I thought it was the norm across cities.

What would city councillors be doing specific to their wards that MLAs wouldn't do? I guess I mean what kinds of specific civic duties do councillors have now that would be overly burdensome?

Aristotleded24

Vancouver is a bit different because councillors there are elected at large, not by ward.

As for what city councillors would do, smaller wards would free up resources for them to focus on specific matters, especially given their limited budgets and resources. And it would be easier to challenge them at election time, since there isn't a formal party apparatus that can do that.

Who are you

Given the comments on the Winnipeg mayors race, it sounds like many think that the voters were stupid voting for the eventual winner.  If that is the belief then I'm truly saddenned by those who feel they are superior to the wishes of the average voter.  No matter what the result the electorate is always right.

2dawall

The machine behind JWL was far from well-oiled and it had both NDP and Liberal party elements. The campaign was a clunker; she made the announcement in spring and then did nothing until the middle of September. Some basic groundwork should have been done in May and June and then a solid re-start at the Labor day weekend. Further to that, you need a larger base of work done well before any candidacy to clearly outline what are the real issues that face Winnipeg and to do that you have to by-pass the media (use the Internet, more work on the street etc). The Winnipeg Sun is a constant hammer job on the issue of crime as is the CTV affiliate and without confronting that problem you go nowhere.

The Winnipeg Citizen Coalition and their plan of blandness came to nothing as anyone relatively aware would have predicted. What was the name of that PR firm from Toronto in which that they put so much faith? I wish I knew so that other could have some memory of who to avoid/ignore in the future. There is no learning without a learning curve.

Aristotleded24

2dawall wrote:
The Winnipeg Citizen Coalition and their plan of blandness came to nothing as anyone relatively aware would have predicted.

Hence why I never formally singed up even though I was around for the initial discussions.

2dawall

Who are you wrote:

Given the comments on the Winnipeg mayors race, it sounds like many think that the voters were stupid voting for the eventual winner.  If that is the belief then I'm truly saddenned by those who feel they are superior to the wishes of the average voter.  No matter what the result the electorate is always right.

Those voters who are either developers or work for developers and those who live in outlying suburbs had an interest in voting for Katz. Those  who do not live in Winnipeg but live in the surrounding bedroom villages/exurbans areas who could not vote but supported either directly or indirectly had reason to exult. Yet anyone who lives in downtown Winnipeg who were deluded (as many voters often are) to vote for Katz will suffer. It is not to insult anyone necessarily to say one has been cheated or scammed; it is only to acknowledge the impact of PR and advertising. A third of those who voted for Ronald Reagan in his two elections did not support one single policy of his; another third did not agree with most of his agenda. That has been the success of the Right in the last 30 years; mobilizing people against their own interests. The Left is too wasted on cannabis and white wine to notice that.

jas

I still don't know how Sam mobilized that vote. The Judy campaign's achievement of 91,000 votes and 43% of the popular vote would have been a winning effort in any other election. The Sam vote must have been primarily an anti-Judy vote, as Aristotleded24 has also suggested, and/or just a fear-of-change vote against what some saw as an unknown quantity. Sam really does represent for the most part, keeping things in Winnipeg exactly as they are (while quietly privatizing public services). My comment about voters who support that sentiment was merely to point out that many Winnipeggers do not recognize the real basic problems their city has, and they continue to support the avoidance of addressing those problems.

I only recently discovered some of the anti-Judy videos available on the net, some of which claim to answer "Who is Judy, really?" but only manage to make silly claims using red-scaremongering and the "soft on crime" trope. Really stupid.

jas

Aristotleded24 wrote:

The campaign to replace Katz should have started on October 26, 2010.

?? I think you mean 2007.

Quote:
The biggest share of the blame needs to go to the Winnipeg Citizen's Coalition. They've been around for 2 years,  and I have yet to meet a single person who thought they were in any way effective. Look at their [url=http://www.ourwinnipeg.org/]front page:[/url] what do they mean by "transparency" and "accountability?" What are these "community meetings" they keep talking about? Most importantly, what are the issues facing Winnipeggers, and why should we care? The report card idea to grade councillors was a great idea, but that came too late in the campaign. If your incumbent councillor either failed or was not running, not endorsing anybody did not help you make your decision. This report card should be a quarterly thing, so people have an idea. They should also have a communication strategy that highlights certain issues (i.e. transit, housing) and specific, timely concerns (i.e Veolia). That would create far more meaningful engagement with the community than simply handing out postcards and asking people to fill them out. Having some policy experts on hand who could show how to address these issues wouldn't hurt either. It would help them get around the media block that the right-wing media holds on the city. Speaking of media....

This questionable strategy was also brought up in the previous thread:

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/prairies/who-running-mayor-winnipeg#comment-...

Quote:
While some local bloggers (i.e. [url=http://policyfrog.wordpress.com/]Policyfrog[/url]) have been sympathetic to specific left-wing issues, there is no major left presence in the local blog-o-sphere. We need to change that to get the word out. We also need a strategy to ensure that a wide variety of voices make it out, such as the CCPA Manitoba or former WPS Deputy [url=http://mennozacharias.wordpress.com/]Menno Zacharias[/url] on the issue of public safety. Once these diverse voices have been assembled in a coherent fashion, it's time for a communication strategy. This is simple part. You don't need money for an ad in the Free Press or on CJOB (although on specific big issues you can go this route). Simply send out e-mails to your identified supporters saying "here is the issue, pass along to 5 friends." If this grassroots network is present and strong, progressive candidates will have an easier time with their message and won't have to rely on those annoying robo-calls.

I don't think emails do it, personally, but I like the rest of your ideas. Start organizing town halls on a bi-yearly or quarterly basis. This would be a good role for the coalition, since it does not seem to endorse any one candidate and does not appear to be under the control yet of any one party. It could serve to unify progressive interests toward a single effective strategy.

Personally, I do think Judy has so far been the best candidate to step forward. Her popularity and experience and ability to engage the public makes her a good face for our interests. Unfortunately, so many others disagree, yet refuse to put forward a suitable alternative. Maybe Winnipeg leftists and progressives need to decide whether they want to win elections or just run in them to "raise issues".

 

jas

Just wondering if the thread title should be changed, since only the first three posts here really relate to the stated topic and the thread became a general discussion of the campaigns and strategy.

Aristotleded24

So the reality is beginning to sink in. There were lots of municipal elections in Canada this month, and they had interesting results. Calgary voted for change in a big way. Several incumbent mayors throughout Ontario were defeated, as well as in Dauphin and Brandon, with several big name politicians losing in the latter 2 communities. Clearly, the desire for change was there. In Winnipeg, Sam's bungling included:

-questionable ethics
-lack of coherent plans, including flip-flopping on rapid transit, the frustration with active transportation plans and the new Bomber stadium, and the traffic circle backlash
-blatantly cynical electioneering, including the claim to hire more police officers and headline-driven response to crimes, and ridiculous claims about rising property taxes

Yet in spite of all of this, the best we could do was knock 5 points off Katz' results from 2006. What does this mean?

We screwed up badly. Marianne Cerilli had a far more superior platform, she just did not have the organization behind her.

The campaign to replace Katz should have started on October 26, 2006. The biggest share of the blame needs to go to the Winnipeg Citizen's Coalition. They've been around for 2 years,  and I have yet to meet a single person who thought they were in any way effective. Look at their [url=http://www.ourwinnipeg.org/]front page:[/url] what do they mean by "transparency" and "accountability?" What are these "community meetings" they keep talking about? Most importantly, what are the issues facing Winnipeggers, and why should we care? The report card idea to grade councillors was a great idea, but that came too late in the campaign. If your incumbent councillor either failed or was not running, not endorsing anybody did not help you make your decision. This report card should be a quarterly thing, so people have an idea. They should also have a communication strategy that highlights certain issues (i.e. transit, housing) and specific, timely concerns (i.e Veolia). That would create far more meaningful engagement with the community than simply handing out postcards and asking people to fill them out. Having some policy experts on hand who could show how to address these issues wouldn't hurt either. It would help them get around the media block that the right-wing media holds on the city. Speaking of media....

While some local bloggers (i.e. [url=http://policyfrog.wordpress.com/]Policyfrog[/url]) have been sympathetic to specific left-wing issues, there is no major left presence in the local blog-o-sphere. We need to change that to get the word out. We also need a strategy to ensure that a wide variety of voices make it out, such as the CCPA Manitoba or former WPS Deputy [url=http://mennozacharias.wordpress.com/]Menno Zacharias[/url] on the issue of public safety. Once these diverse voices have been assembled in a coherent fashion, it's time for a communication strategy. This is simple part. You don't need money for an ad in the Free Press or on CJOB (although on specific big issues you can go this route). Simply send out e-mails to your identified supporters saying "here is the issue, pass along to 5 friends." If this grassroots network is present and strong, progressive candidates will have an easier time with their message and won't have to rely on those annoying robo-calls.

It really feels like all we've been doing is talking amongst ourselves and the public doesn't hear. Unfortunately, I have the sense that this is only going to continue. Progressives in Brandon have far fewer resources at their disposal than they do in Winnipeg, yet managed to win the Mayor's chair and defeat several councillors. We can do the same in Winnipeg.

Aristotleded24

jas wrote:
Personally, I do think Judy has so far been the best candidate to step forward. Her popularity and experience and ability to engage the public makes her a good face for our interests. Unfortunately, so many others disagree, yet refuse to put forward a suitable alternative. Maybe Winnipeg leftists and progressives need to decide whether they want to win elections or just run in them to "raise issues".

I asked a prominent activist at Judy's party how he felt about the campaign, and he told me we gave it our best shot. Well, if our "best shot" yields these results, we might as well pack it in and give up because the stars were lined up.

jas

Well, now you're being defeatist, which goes against everything you've been posting here. I don't think it really was the best shot, and I don't think the stars were all that well lined up. Some things were missing, as we've already been discussing.

 

 

Aristotleded24

I agree this wasn't our best shot. When Katz first started to poll ahead of Judy after having been tied with her earlier in the month, I didn't want to believe. I told myself that there must be something the polls aren't picking up, the polls would be biased when you consider the source, etc. Turns out my sinking suspicions were correct.True believers were insisting that Judy would win, but anybody outside that camp wasn't so sure. Even on these threads, I felt a general sense that air was coming out of the baloon but that people were silent so as not to expose any weakness. Note how much more active these threads have been in the past 2 days than the past 2 weeks.

We need to do better, on that matter you and I agree, I just don't see any indication that the "left leaders" in Winnipeg understand that.

Aristotleded24

jas wrote:
Personally, I do think Judy has so far been the best candidate to step forward.

Exactly. While she was not prepared for the rough-and-tumble world of civic politics, every candidate has unique strengths and weaknesses, so I'm not sure another candidate would have done better. For example, Dan Vandal could have run, but not only has he lost to Katz before, but he and Katz simply do not get along. The campaign could have easily turned into a grudge match, which would not have been to anyone's benefit. Jenny Gerbasi could certainly take on Katz, but would she have been able to appeal to a wide section of voters across the city?

Aristotleded24

jas wrote:
I only recently discovered some of the anti-Judy videos available on the net, some of which claim to answer "Who is Judy, really?" but only manage to make silly claims using red-scaremongering and the "soft on crime" trope. Really stupid.

I have to admit, the Crimestopper's ad about someone stealing her platform was quite brilliant.

jas

Tongue out

 

Aristotleded24

[url=http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/special/civicelection/ndp-taking-anothe... endorsement process to be reviewed:[/url]

Quote:
Sigurdson said the party's method of endorsing municipal and school board candidates -- which puts considerable power into the hands of small community endorsement committees and was hotly debated at last spring's NDP convention -- would have been reviewed in any case. It was used for the first time this year.

On Wednesday, incumbent Harvey Smith hung onto Daniel McIntyre despite losing his bid for the party nod to Keith Bellamy. Bellamy finished third in the race. Meanwhile, in Elmwood/East Kildonan, normally an NDP stronghold, Tory-affiliated Thomas Steen skated to victory over the NDP-endorsed Shaneen Robinson after Rod Giesbrecht (who had challenged Robinson for the party nod) sought office anyway, splitting the left-wing vote.

Sigurdson said while the party plans to review the endorsement process, it's not an immediate priority with the next civic vote four years away. "We've got bigger fish to fry," she said, referring to next fall's provincial vote.

What needs to happen is for the NDP to butt out of civic politics entirely. It's quite clear that what happened in Daniel Mac and Elmwood caused many wounds within the party, and those wounds won't heal easily. The rigid partisan alliances in place at the federal and provincial levels don't translate that well. Progressives instead have to organize into loose coalitions at the municipal level, similar to the COPE/NPA alignment in Vancouver. The left-right differences are still there, but the outward manifestation is different.

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

I agree that the NDP should not be associated with municipal elections, Aristotleded. I think that's a bit of a turn off and people who are interested in left -right dichotomies can figure out for themselves where candidates stand. I only worked on one municipal election where the NDP got involved (not in Winnipeg) and we ran a strong candidate who had been an NDP worker with good credentials in what had been a safe progressive seat where the long-standing incumbant retired. Unfortunately, another strong NDP candidate was running who did not get the party's backing but still had a very solid reputation. They ended up splitting the vote and the guy who won ended up moving on to become a successful and popular Liberal MP and then a Senator.

Beyond the NDP running as a slate, Judy's campaign seemed to lack focus and excitement. I think the water treatment PPP had more traction than she captialized on as did the proposed stadium at U of M. Too many of her positions were similar to what Sam was proposing that it was really hard to see her as a visionary candidate. To her credit, she made Sam Katz actually fight unlike the last election but I think it was hers to win had she done things differently.

jas

laine lowe wrote:

Beyond the NDP running as a slate, Judy's campaign seemed to lack focus and excitement. I think the water treatment PPP had more traction than she captialized on as did the proposed stadium at U of M. Too many of her positions were similar to what Sam was proposing that it was really hard to see her as a visionary candidate. To her credit, she made Sam Katz actually fight unlike the last election but I think it was hers to win had she done things differently.

Totally agree. And you have to wonder about who her advisors were. It seemed to be a "don't rock the boat" platform, as if they perceived that doing nothing, proposing nothing, like Sam does (doesn't) would keep it uncontroversial and therefore palatable for Winnipeg voters, and she could kind of slide in on her popularity and/or name recognition.

Using stale election buzzwords like "transparency" and "accountability", while perhaps true and valid, nevertheless came out empty-sounding and meaningless for anyone listening, especially when no specifics were provided.

And then leaving things to the NDP get-the-vote-out "machine" in the last few days. Really puzzling. That machine would work a lot better with some excitement to capitalize on.

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

laine lowe wrote:

people who are interested in left -right dichotomies can figure out for themselves where candidates stand.

I'm not at all convinced that's true.  Here in Regina, discerning the ideology of most candidates is dodgy at best - particularly since virtually all of them have nothing of substance beyond wanting lower taxes and improved services.  (Someday, I want to meet a candidte who calls for higher taxes and poorer services.)

In any event, here in Regina, we end up with hard right councillors where a hard right candidate would have trouble keeping their deposit in any election where party / ideological labels are transparent.  To the degree that anyone has tried to address this by endorsing a progressive (and technically non-NDP-partisan) slate, it has been an ill-managed flop.

ghoris

Aristotleded24 wrote:

What needs to happen is for the NDP to butt out of civic politics entirely. It's quite clear that what happened in Daniel Mac and Elmwood caused many wounds within the party, and those wounds won't heal easily. The rigid partisan alliances in place at the federal and provincial levels don't translate that well. Progressives instead have to organize into loose coalitions at the municipal level, similar to the COPE/NPA alignment in Vancouver. The left-right differences are still there, but the outward manifestation is different.

Very well said. I agree 100%, with the slight caveat that I see Vision Vancouver as a more appropriate example of coalition-building than COPE.

Aristotleded24

Malcolm wrote:
laine lowe wrote:
people who are interested in left -right dichotomies can figure out for themselves where candidates stand.
I'm not at all convinced that's true.  Here in Regina, discerning the ideology of most candidates is dodgy at best - particularly since virtually all of them have nothing of substance beyond wanting lower taxes and improved services.  (Someday, I want to meet a candidte who calls for higher taxes and poorer services.)

In any event, here in Regina, we end up with hard right councillors where a hard right candidate would have trouble keeping their deposit in any election where party / ideological labels are transparent.  To the degree that anyone has tried to address this by endorsing a progressive (and technically non-NDP-partisan) slate, it has been an ill-managed flop.

Mind you, Regina seems to be unique in that there are no purely "urban" or "suburban" wards. Urban wards tend to the left, suburban wards tend to the right. Even Saskatoon tends to regularly elect left-leaning councillors, and its ward boundaries are drawn along these lines.

I'm guessing that the Coalition for a Citizen Friendly Regina went the way of the Winnipeg Blue Bombers?

2dawall

Aristotleded24 wrote:

 Even on these threads, I felt a general sense that air was coming out of the baloon but that people were silent so as not to expose any weakness. Note how much more active these threads have been in the past 2 days than the past 2 weeks.

We need to do better, on that matter you and I agree, I just don't see any indication that the "left leaders" in Winnipeg understand that.

I have no idea how many people here are from Winnipeg; I doubt few beyond who participate in the threads read them. When Rabble first started there were lots of stickers downtown to promote it here but nothing in the last few years. I have seen its name scribbed on a bathroom wall in the downtown library and that is about it. Maybe rabble.ca needs to be promoted more here in Winnipeg again. For the most part, it reads very much Toronto.

As to anyone who says "best shot" I would certainly like to have a more specific definition of what that means. What I see are a lot of people going through the motions for whatever social reason.

Aristotleded24

adma wrote:
Aristotleded24 wrote:
Ready for some good news?[url=http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2010/10/27/mb-female-mayor-brand... elected its first ever left-of-cetnre mayor, and several councillors have gone down to defeat (one in third place).[/url]
Maybe even more interesting (at least from this distance) is that Inky Mark was defeated for the Dauphin mayoralty...

Yup. Backroom Old Boys Club wheeling and dealing just isn't cutting it with voters any more. They want something different.

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

The Coalition for a Citizen Friendly Regina was a complete flop, and the iteration in the last election wasn't any better.  The only endorsed candidates who won in either election were those who were acclaimed.

Part of the problem there is that having a committee of the local labour council arbitrarily determine who the designated candidate is in a given ward is scarcely more democratic than what we've got from the other side.  The progressive movement is more than labour, and to have labour act alone is worse than stupid.  As is watching labour blade one of their own in order to endorse a polarizing blowhard - and both of them challenging the last progressive standing on council.

Then once the candidates have leapt through labour's hoops to be anointed as the designated progressive candidate, the total "support" ended up being a cheque for a few hundred dollars.

No, Aristotle.  The CCFR was never half as effective as the Bombers were on Labour Day weekend.

Aristotleded24

Malcolm wrote:
Part of the problem there is that having a committee of the local labour council arbitrarily determine who the designated candidate is in a given ward is scarcely more democratic than what we've got from the other side.  The progressive movement is more than labour, and to have labour act alone is worse than stupid.  As is watching labour blade one of their own in order to endorse a polarizing blowhard - and both of them challenging the last progressive standing on council.

We had similar things happen in Winnipeg, with the NDP endosring municipal candidates. I find it funny that the NDP is considering "what to do" about people who ran for council and schoolboard despite losing the "NDP nomination" (one of whom was a long-time respected councillor in an NDP stronghold, where the NDP-annointed candidate came in third, even behind the Liberals) since the NDP doesn't even have official standing at the municipal level.

Stockholm

We have had a similar issues in Toronto around people being sore losers about not getting an NDP endorsement etc... and so this slection there were no formal NDP endorsements. What i find objectionable are people who bother contesting the informal NDP nomination process and then when they don't win, they go off and run anyways. I think that if you agree to take part in the process, you should agree to abide by the results. So, I say if you want to run for an NDP municipal nomination - you should have to sign an affidavit that you will not run if you lose - otherwise, don't bother running for the nomination at all and just run as an progressive "independent".

Aristotleded24

How does it compare to running federally or provincially where party affiliations are official? Anecdotally, it seems that people who lose their party nominations deciding to run anyways is much rarer federally and provincially than municipally. So in the cases of people like Chuck Cadman and Bev Desjarlais, did running as independents cost them their memberships? I'm guessing both weren't well-thought-of in their respectvie parties after the fact? (Actually, we know Bev wasn't.)

Stockholm

For one thing - at the municipal level parties don't even officially exist and you are not voting to elect a party which will form a government.

In some cases like Cadman, you have a popular incumbent MP who was seen as having been railroaded out of a nomination. I can't think of any examples of a non-incumbent candidate for nomination running as an independent and getting a significant number of votes.

Aristotleded24

Something else we should think about is timing of the announcement. If we go back to the Brandon example, Decter Hirst had announced her candidacy close to a year in advance of the election. In Winnipeg, we had no idea at that point, and there was a great deal of hmmming and hawing, maybe this person will run, that person will not, Judy Wasylycia-Leis is rumoured to be seeking a bid, hope she doesn't split the vote with Lillian Thomas, blah blah blah blah. The next general election is scheduled for October 22, 2014. It would probably be a good idea to have a progressive candidate lined up around the fall of 2013 (I thought to myself, but didn't say publicly, that we should have had our candidate lined up no later than fall 2009). Then on October 22 of that year, make a big splash by announcing your candidacy. (On October 27, 2009, the Free Press had a section on the upcoming provincial election, who was in, who was out, etc). That gives you lots of time to build up your support base throughout the city, test a few communication strategies, build a coherent platform, etc. Once you've done that, then as the time draws closer you can ratchet up the campaign, build on that excitement, and win office whether or not Katz decides to run again.

6079_Smith_W

Stockholm wrote:

I think that if you agree to take part in the process, you should agree to abide by the results. So, I say if you want to run for an NDP municipal nomination - you should have to sign an affidavit that you will not run if you lose - otherwise, don't bother running for the nomination at all and just run as an progressive "independent".

After all, we wouldn't want the electorate deciding things, would we?

genstrike

I have to admit, the only thing I felt happy about this election was watching Harvey Smith take the NDP machine down a notch.

ghoris

Funny, that's almost exactly what my Conservative brother said...

6079_Smith_W

ghoris wrote:

Funny, that's almost exactly what my Conservative brother said...

Not sure exactly what you mean by saying that.

Seems to me the NDP screwed up and were told so by the electorate. I think that final outcome is the main thing, not the will of those want to see the NDP lose or the conservatives gain.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/ndp-taking-another-look-at-endors...

That said (and I'm speaking in theory because it has been a decade since I last lived in Winnipeg) I can understand some people feeling a bit of pleasure at seeing them lose after trying to remove a long-standing incumbent who evidently still enjoys the support of the people.

I don't have any particular anti-NDP sentiment, but I understand perfectly that some might feel some pleasure at seeing them get their comeuppance. It was not a smart move on their part.

 

Aristotleded24

6079_Smith_W wrote:
That said (and I'm speaking in theory because it has been a decade since I last lived in Winnipeg) I can understand some people feeling a bit of pleasure at seeing them lose after trying to remove a long-standing incumbent who evidently still enjoys the support of the people.

I don't have any particular anti-NDP sentiment, but I understand perfectly that some might feel some pleasure at seeing them get their comeuppance. It was not a smart move on their part.

Not just lose, but come in a distant third.

Aristotleded24

genstrike wrote:
I have to admit, the only thing I felt happy about this election was watching Harvey Smith take the NDP machine down a notch.

ghoris wrote:
Funny, that's almost exactly what my Conservative brother said...

You know, genstrike is right. The Manitoba NDP has been taking its base for granted for a long time. Reading these threads, the results, and the comments on public news boards suggesting that "it's time for the NDP to go," I'm starting to have a sense of malaise about the whole thing. Even if the NDP manages to win a majority next year, there's no way it will govern past 2015. For many people in the province, rather than seeing the NDP as representing the "little guy," they see the party as just part of the backroom political apparatus that only cares about winning elections and will say anything to do so. (Average voter turnouts under this government are lower than they have been before.)

Those in charge of the NDP have devoted a great deal of energy to staying in control and silencing dissent. I can't help but think that if a fraction of that energy was devoted to fighting our real opponents, the NDP would not only be in government, but would own City Hall and a majority of the federal seats in Manitoba.

Stockholm

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Stockholm wrote:

I think that if you agree to take part in the process, you should agree to abide by the results. So, I say if you want to run for an NDP municipal nomination - you should have to sign an affidavit that you will not run if you lose - otherwise, don't bother running for the nomination at all and just run as an progressive "independent".

After all, we wouldn't want the electorate deciding things, would we?

I DO want the electorate deciding things. That's why I think that people on the left running municipally need to make a decision. EITHER simply run as an independent progressive candidate with no official ties to any party (though they may be known to be an NDP supporter) OR decalre that they want an NDP endorsement and that they will not run unless they get it one. One or the other - not BOTH!

2dawall

I too am glad Harvey Smith won. There was a lot of whispering by NDP robots about how he was not in full capacity. When you see him around town his physical gate has no doubt slowed down but I have not heard him say anything that would indicate a diminshed physical capacity.

The reality is that, counter to the nonsense that the Winnipeg Citizen's Coalition promoted, you have to make issues about the city what any election is about. Winnipeg is too wide. Way too wide especially when oil prices could spike really, really high at any moment and there is no reason to assume they will go down in any long-term sense. Somehow, some group has to make an understandable case for why Winnipeg is too wide and why urban sprawl is a problem. Having a big documetary series on the CBC local 20 years ago and a big women's forum caucas on it 15 years ago hardly constitues staying on message.

Maybe we should have had a fringe candidate to just kept on saying "Winnipeg is too damn wide" that way they had in NY state but use that as the starting point for something else.

Stockholm

If a city is already "too wide" what is the remedy? Do you propose demolishing entire suburbs and moving all their inhabitants to high density housing projects close to the city centre?

2dawall

Whoa! Straw man. No, but stop its current growth, force the issue of why the city and the province refuse to set limits.

Do you deny Stockholm that Winnipeg is too wide? Do you deny that further suburbs will cost the city per lot far beyond what the city will tax them for?  Again when Linden Woods first developed the lots were costing the city some $40 000 per lot. No doubt that has gone down but not enough to be covered by whatever the lot owners are paying now. Urban sprawl is unstainable. And again, we are facing a future of increasing energy costs; very soon, depending on world events, it will be come too costly to commute by car. Yet our city is planned as if oil will continue to be cheap.

Stockholm

I don't live in Winnipeg and I can't say if its "too wide" (or too tall!), but my point is that the urban sprawl has already happened and Winnipeg is not growing much compared to other Canadian cities - so there isn't that much more new sprawl to contain. Unfortunately, the bad decisions that led to all this sprawl happened 30 years ago - and now its too late to do much about it - unless you like my idea above.

jas

Stockholm, it is still continuing. If the sprawl were stopped twenty years ago, you could have a viable downtown and surrounding neighbourhoods like the North End and EK and West Broadway wouldn't look like a bomb hit them.

6079_Smith_W

Stockholm wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Stockholm wrote:

I think that if you agree to take part in the process, you should agree to abide by the results. So, I say if you want to run for an NDP municipal nomination - you should have to sign an affidavit that you will not run if you lose - otherwise, don't bother running for the nomination at all and just run as an progressive "independent".

After all, we wouldn't want the electorate deciding things, would we?

I DO want the electorate deciding things. That's why I think that people on the left running municipally need to make a decision. EITHER simply run as an independent progressive candidate with no official ties to any party (though they may be known to be an NDP supporter) OR decalre that they want an NDP endorsement and that they will not run unless they get it one. One or the other - not BOTH!

Aside from the fact that in this case it was the party that left the incumbent candidate - Smith - I fail to see how compelling someone to not put his or her name on the ballot somehow offers a better or more open choice to the electorate. Trying to cash in on Smith's hard work and reputation and give him the heave-ho was bad enough. Making prospective candidates sign a non-compete waiver like that would be far sleazier, and in my opinion dig themselves an even deeper hole in the eyes of the public.

In case the results of that specific vote didn't make it clear, the people aren't stupid all of the time.

Stockholm

Yes, but the sprawl was NOT stopped twenty years ago - and now no one will ever be able to put the toothpaste back into the toothpaste tube. The damage has been done.

Stockholm

"Making prospective candidates sign a non-compete waiver like that would be far sleazier, and in my opinion dig themselves an even deeper hole in the eyes of the public."

In that case, no one is forcing anyone to compete for the NDP endorsement in the first place. Maybe Harvey Smith should have simply refused to even dignify the process of an NDP endorsement meeting and said right off the bat that he would not accept an endorsement and would run no matter what. What i object to is TAKING PART in a process and then refusing to abide by the results.

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