Killings at Québec City mosque

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lagatta4

Haroon Sadiqqui's anti-Québéecois hatred is every bit as offensive as the hatred shown by the perpetrator of this terror attack. Did you read what you posted? It isn't the first time he takes such a tack.

The victims are all known now, though the photo of one is still missing:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-city-mosque-shooting-victi...

These brief descriptions just give an indication of the lives lost and how these people contributed to their new home. The wife of the food sciences professor is also a professor in the same department at Laval University.

They are all men because women pray on the upper level of the mosque.

The vigils here in Montréal and in Québec were huge. People are very, very upset and as a young woman I met said, "ashamed". I'll return with more updates.

 

 

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I'm going to ask the same question as I did with the mass shootings in France and Belgium. Apparently his weapon was an AK-47. An assault rifle banned in Canada,France and Belgium. Some blamed Europe's open border as easy means of smuggling such weapons. Where did this degenerate get his hands on one?

Border security are too busy putting all their resources on hashish and cocaine. At the end of the day,who gives a fuck about those substances hitting the streets. It's clear there is an underground market for assault rifles and god knows what other Army grade material making it over our borders.

Priorities. The 80's are over, Drugs are not public enemy #1. It's the age of terrorism. Resources should be used to assure weapons of mass destruction not cross our border. Terrorism should be the main priority of our border security,police and every and all tactical squads.

ctrl190

I believe you can still purchase an AK-47 or similar 'looking' rifle as long as it is not automatic. 

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

It turns out the murderer was a fan of Donald Trump's...

lagatta4

And of Marine Le Pen. And a troll of the site (started in my neighbourhood) Bienvenue aux réfugié-e-s!

http://elisegravel.com/fr/content/bienvenue-aux-r%C3%A9fugi%C3%A9s

abnormal

Meanwhile, Spicer, Trump's press secretary, is claiming that the Quebec shootings justify Trump's travel ban.

voice of the damned

lagatta4 wrote:

Haroon Sadiqqui's anti-Québéecois hatred is every bit as offensive as the hatred shown by the perpetrator of this terror attack. Did you read what you posted? It isn't the first time he takes such a tack.

I'm not sure I saw anti-Quebeecois hatred in the Sadiqqui piece. He criticizes the Conservative federal government of Stephen Harper(with MPs from across the country, but few in Quebec), the Liberal government of Ontario, and the Liberal and PQ governments of Quebec, for promoting what he regards as Islamophobia, and gives examples for each. I guess he uses more examples from Quebec, but I don't think an American reader of the NYT would come away thinking "Ah, so I guess Quebec is where all the Islamophobia is in Canada."

 

Hurtin Albertan

AK 47's have been Prohibited in Canada since the late 90's.  Along with any and all varients, and a few other firearms that vaguely resemble them.

If you owned one before they were Prohibited, you were allowed to keep it, although you couldn't really do much with it, don't even think you are allowed to take a Prohibited firearm to the gun range except under very rare circumstances.  So there are still a few legally owned AK 47's in Canada but rare like unicorns.

Possible he somehow acquired an actual AK 47 that had been stolen from it's legal owner, but I doubt that very much.  Possible he bought one on the black market that was smuggled into Canada, or otherwise ended up on the black market somehow.  Pretty sure the black market for firearms is more into smuggled handguns these days but I guess if you have the money and know the right (wrong?) people you can possibly get your hands on anything.

More than likely the police mis-identified the firearm used.  Police have been notorious for this. 

My bet is a VZ 58 pattern rifle, goes by a few different names in Canada depending on the make and model.  Looks very similar to the AK but due to the bizarre nature of Canadian gun control laws it's available to own as a non-restricted firearm or as a restricted firearm, depending on the specific model and it's barrel length.  Pretty popular in Canada for that reason.

Could have even been an SKS rifle, they have been misidentified by police as AK 47's before, like I said Canadian police really seem to suck at firearms identification.

Not sure if Bissonnette had a valid firearms license or not, or if he legally owned the firearms used.  I've heard him referred to as a gun owner or a firearms enthusiast or what have you, but supposedly his Facebook didn't have any pics of him with guns.  I'll poke around on the internet and see if I can find anything.

Unionist

voice of the damned wrote:

lagatta4 wrote:

Haroon Sadiqqui's anti-Québéecois hatred is every bit as offensive as the hatred shown by the perpetrator of this terror attack. Did you read what you posted? It isn't the first time he takes such a tack.

I'm not sure I saw anti-Quebeecois hatred in the Sadiqqui piece. He criticizes the Conservative federal government of Stephen Harper(with MPs from across the country, but few in Quebec), the Liberal government of Ontario, and the Liberal and PQ governments of Quebec, for promoting what he regards as Islamophobia, and gives examples for each. I guess he uses more examples from Quebec, but I don't think an American reader of the NYT would come away thinking "Ah, so I guess Quebec is where all the Islamophobia is in Canada."

I share VOTD's reading of Siddiqui's piece. If Siddiqui is a Québecophobe (which is quite possible - but I'd need to see more articles), it doesn't show in this story, at least to me. He recounts a couple of notorious examples of xenophobia which were extremely high profile, and crossed party lines. I think that's fair and relevant.

josh

abnormal wrote:

Meanwhile, Spicer, Trump's press secretary, is claiming that the Quebec shootings justify Trump's travel ban.

Yes, killing of Muslims justifies a partial ban on Muslims.

Hurtin Albertan

So Bissonnette is also facing charges of attempted murder with a restricted firearm, which could mean he had a short barrelled restricted version of a VZ 58 rifle, but I also read he had a handgun with him.  In the end I don't think the details matter much, the only thing somewhat interesting are the lack of the usual firearms related criminal charges that get piled on to the other offences.  Maybe the Crown will file these charges at a later date.

Hurtin Albertan

I'll give Alan the benefit of the doubt and assume that his desire to see a young man "passed around the prison system like a joint" means that if Bissonnette is convicted of criminal offences and goes to prison, that his fellow inmates will sit him down and give him multiple sincere and heartfelt lectures on how wrong it is to lash out violently against innocent victims, and how Muslim Canadians are part of our cultural mosaic or some such.

For all we know Bissonnette may well be "not criminally responsible based on mental health issues" or whatever the legal term is.

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

I don't think society should lower itself to the level of the murderer.

6079_Smith_W

A friend of mine told me over the weekend that her refugee sponsor group has absolutely no publicity about the family they are aiding, and absolutely no online presence precisely because they do not want to attract any unwanted attention.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Hurtin Albertan wrote:

I'll give Alan the benefit of the doubt and assume that his desire to see a young man "passed around the prison system like a joint" means that if Bissonnette is convicted of criminal offences and goes to prison, that his fellow inmates will sit him down and give him multiple sincere and heartfelt lectures on how wrong it is to lash out violently against innocent victims, and how Muslim Canadians are part of our cultural mosaic or some such.

For all we know Bissonnette may well be "not criminally responsible based on mental health issues" or whatever the legal term is.

If he was found not criminally responsible it would be highly unusual. It is the defense for someone who loses their mind to things like voices in their head that tell them to kill their child. In the extremely unlikely event he was judged to be not criminally responsible he would be held in a secure forensic mental health facility not a regular jail. This guy is going to regular jail where he likely will have muscle supplied by the in house White Supremacist club to protect him from rapists. I personally find the idea of rape as punishment to be particularly repugnant.

bekayne

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Hurtin Albertan wrote:

I'll give Alan the benefit of the doubt and assume that his desire to see a young man "passed around the prison system like a joint" means that if Bissonnette is convicted of criminal offences and goes to prison, that his fellow inmates will sit him down and give him multiple sincere and heartfelt lectures on how wrong it is to lash out violently against innocent victims, and how Muslim Canadians are part of our cultural mosaic or some such.

For all we know Bissonnette may well be "not criminally responsible based on mental health issues" or whatever the legal term is.

If he was found not criminally responsible it would be highly unusual. It is the defense for someone who loses their mind to things like voices in their head that tell them to kill their child. In the extremely unlikely event he was judged to be not criminally responsible he would be held in a secure forensic mental health facility not a regular jail. This guy is going to regular jail where he likely will have muscle supplied by the in house White Supremacist club to protect him from rapists. I personally find the idea of rape as punishment to be particularly repugnant.

Amen to that

6079_Smith_W

I really don't want to focus on the alleged perpetrator, but the whole reason why most of them commit acts like this is because they want a society built on violence. Why give them the satisfaction?

Norway is appealing the mistreatment ruling of Anders Breivik, but I remember an interview at the time with a family member of one of his victims who supported the ruling for that reason.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36094575

It is, after all, the reason why we don't hang people anymore.

lagatta4

Siddiqui has quite the history of shall we say a deep lack of understanding of Québec society.

And I am opposed to the death penalty under all circumstances. It has nothing to do with sympathy with the bastards who commit such horrible crimes. I don't want to be anything like them, and I don't want the state killing people in my name.

6079_Smith_W
alan smithee alan smithee's picture

The Cons should kick her out of the party. And if they don't,the NDP and the Liberals (who I think have no backbone) should hammer the fuck out them. It would also be the opening the NDP needs.

Sean in Ottawa

If the message is to be fixed where is the part saying "I am sorry, I will resign and never show my face in public again." That's the best part.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Not sure if Bissonnette had a valid firearms license or not, or if he legally owned the firearms used.

..back in the early 90‘s i was volunteering at every woman’s health clinic in vancouver. this was when there were large anti choice demos. my function was working with a volunteer security. assisting women though the lines of angry protesters. keeping an eye on what was going on among the protesters.

..one day a new force came on the scene. a right racist force. one day they set up a table in front of the clinic selling their racist propaganda. they held an anti abortion meeting in partnership with real women at the croation hall on commercial.

..this set off and exploration by some folks re the role of the right in vancouver. activists went undercover and infiltrated organizations. and reports were published. what was uncovered was a very organized right. what was discovered were large arm caches..much of it illegal. not sure where things are at today.  

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

alan smithee wrote:

What comforts me is the shooter,a pencil necked geek,will surely be passed around the federal prison like a joint. Good for him.


Wishing sexual assault on someone is never okay. What he did was horrible and he should feel the full weight of the law, but nobody deserves rape. Please stop this line of comment.

Unionist

How the fuck did this thread about a horrible tragedy turn into arguing about whether rape and hanging are appropriate punishments?

You people should grow a sense of shame. If you can't or won't discuss the topic of this thread, you should consider shutting up. This is sickening.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

It's not sympathy, alan, it's priciples. I saw your further comments and it still doesn't wash. Capital punishment and sexual assault are not something to cheer about in any circumstances. Jaysus Murphy, let's get out of the cave, already.

6079_Smith_W

Unionist wrote:

How the fuck did this thread about a horrible tragedy turn into arguing about whether rape and hanging are appropriate punishments?

You people should grow a sense of shame. If you can't or won't discuss the topic of this thread, you should consider shutting up. This is sickening.

Well I did say that I would rather not be talking about the accused.

On the other hand, when people start wishing rape and torture on people, I think saying something about it is a fair response. Better than staying silent and leaving it hanging in the air.

As I also said, it is an important part of not letting those bigots win, so it is in a way relevant.

If you feel some sort of atonement is needed, yes, I was at the vigil tonight, as I expect many of us were. Unlike our banter here, I think that is the important place to show solidarity and support.

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Unionist wrote:

How the fuck did this thread about a horrible tragedy turn into arguing about whether rape and hanging are appropriate punishments?

You people should grow a sense of shame. If you can't or won't discuss the topic of this thread, you should consider shutting up. This is sickening.

Like fuck I will let rape of anyone be normalized on this board. I don't care what Alan says, his meaning is clear and it is inappropriate and should be removed. I'm not debating this I am demanding he retract it and stop posting such vile shit.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..i agree inappropriate.

bekayne

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/in-quebec-city-heartbreak-and-painful...

A few hours later, politicians of all stripes climbed a stage to pay tribute to Thabti and the five others who died Sunday night. Justin Trudeau spoke, as did Quebec Premier Philippe Couillard. Jean-François Lisée, who helped concoct the Quebec Values Charter, stood beside Trudeau; last August*, he said burqas should be banned in Quebec before “a jihadist uses one to hide his movements.”

Also on stage was Francois Legault, leader of the Coalition Avenir party. Around the same time, his party spent a considerable amount of political oxygen musing about banning the so-called “burkini” from Quebec beaches. Quebec City Mayor Régis Labeaume, clearly devastated, said the killings “were an opportunity to reject those who enrich themselves through hate.” Perhaps Labeaume was being discrete—though he rarely is.

Hakim Merdassi, a member of the city’s Tunisian association, went further. Addressing himself to the politicians standing behind him, he said, “What happened wasn’t anodyne, Mr. Politicians. Some of you have been pyromaniac firefighters, and today we have all been burned,” he said. Some applauded. Others didn’t.

 

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Exactly. The intolerance displayed by some politicians and knee jerk xenophobes in Quebec and the rest of Canada played into this, I'm sure. You can't blame it all on the influence of American politics.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I will appologize for the 'rape' comments I made. But I still subscribe to capital punishment and I still don't give a damn what happens to this fuck when he goes to prison.

I will happily retract my other comments but I will not apologize for having no quarter for this mass murderer/terrorist.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

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alan smithee alan smithee's picture

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alan smithee alan smithee's picture

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alan smithee alan smithee's picture

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alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Timebandit wrote:
Don't assume the rest of us do, alan. Yes, I want to see the criminal code land on this POS with its full weight - but there are reasons we don't have capital punishment in this country. And this is a purportedly progressive board, sound don't be surprised if you get some vigorous pushback on that view.

There are those on this board with political views that don't belong on a progressive board. Like licking Putin's ass and some gun nuts. But that is their opinion,they have a right to that opinion. You can debate them or ignore them. I have a zero tolerance for mass murderers,terrorists,rapist murderers,child murderers and serial killers.

I never said I agree with Capital punishment to be used as a tool for anyone that (a) do not fall in the categories I laid out and (b) If there is a shadow of doubt in their guilty verdict.(which is the case in almost all crimes)

I do agree for such punishment for people guilty of heinous crimes like those I mentioned who are guilty without any doubt and even admit to and/or completely unremorseful.

Muzzling me for stating an opinion is not progressive..It's regressive and closed minded ideology.

Anyway,this is thread drift. I hope we can all agree that this terrorist deserves to be severely punished...Or at least I would hope so.

MegB

alan smithee wrote:

Let me be clear. I wouldn't share a tear if he was beaten,shanked or sold for a carton of smokes. Fuck him.

What's clear is that you condone abuse, sexual assault and/or death for the alleged perpetrator. While not explicitly stated in babble policy, this kind of eye for an eye barbarism does not reflect the values of this board.

josh

Thank you.

Sean in Ottawa

alan smithee wrote:

 

Muzzling me for stating an opinion is not progressive..It's regressive and closed minded ideology.

 

Come on. Nobody is doing that. You are getting pushback that's different.

I don't think the state has the right to decide who must die. Even the idea that you could define it how you like and expect a system to have the same values and decide on the same people to kill is a logical joke.

Next we will have a debate with the right over what constitutes a crime worthy of death. They want this debate.

The guy selling drugs near a schoolyard? How far from a schoolyard is close enough? What about for other crimes the religious right is concerned with. Don't go there on a progressive board unless you are prepared for an argument. Quite an argument.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Don't assume the rest of us do, alan. Yes, I want to see the criminal code land on this POS with its full weight - but there are reasons we don't have capital punishment in this country. And this is a purportedly progressive board, so don't be surprised if you get some vigorous pushback on that view.

Hurtin Albertan

Given how things are going in this topic, I was going to post some more speculation but I don't think it would really serve any useful purpose.  Anyways, the story is becoming clearer and things are making more sense now.  No disrespect intended but it sounds like it all could have been a lot worse.

Seems like he was one of the more recent sort of "lone-wolf-comes-out-of-nowhere-turns-out-they-were-radicalized-over-the-internet" type of attackers.  It's pretty tragic that this is even a thing.  And before I offend J.K. Rowling and bring her righteous wrath down upon me, it is possible to be both a "lone wolf" and a terrorist at the same time in my opinion.

Montreal police arrested some other person yesterday for online hate speech against Muslims, so it's not like Canadian police aren't looking for that sort of thing or not taking action when they find it, just too bad that the mosque attacker didn't post more on social media, maybe the attack could have been stopped.

Both the police and the media could have and should have handled the information flow better, but that's a very easy thing to say a couple of days afterwards when you weren't involved in the situation.  And how do you prevent some sort of "online alternate media" from posting completely fabricated BS while the situation is unfolding?

 

NDPP

The New World Order Hits Quebec City  -  by Robin Philpott

http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/02/01/the-new-world-order-hits-quebec-c...

"So what does the New World Order have to do with the terrible killing at the Grande Mosquee de Quebec? The short answer is everything..."

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

They want this debate.

The guy selling drugs near a schoolyard? How far from a schoolyard is close enough? What about for other crimes the religious right is concerned with. Don't go there on a progressive board unless you are prepared for an argument. Quite an argument.

Wow that's some serious defamation. Why would I support a policy like that? because it's complete insanity. Eric Newman,Paul Bernardo,Clifford Olsen,this latest maniac. My heart bleeds for people like these. When the Charleston racist mass cold-blooded murderer,I think it was a suitable punishment for an unrepentent,giggling psychopath. But I suppose in general poputation in federal prison,any time he's unsupervised it's very plausible to believe someone will rough him up. I have to oppose both scenarios and have to  shower these people with empathy and compassion? Why should I feel sorry for the Québec City Terrorist? Am I  supposed to write him love songs and letters?

I'm talking about the very rare occassions where a crime is so heinous and the suspect has no remorse,never to be rehabilitated. I don't give a fuck what happens to him. I shouldn't have to play video games whilst listening to katy perry with him.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Again with the false binary. No one expects you to have empathy or sympathy for the killer. What is expected, however, is that you don't support state sanctioned killing. There's a pretty wide gulf between those two positions.

Paladin1

Timebandit wrote:
Again with the false binary. No one expects you to have empathy or sympathy for the killer. What is expected, however, is that you don't support state sanctioned killing. There's a pretty wide gulf between those two positions.

 

Honest question, is it Rabble policy that members will not hold a pro-capital punishment view?

 

 

I think the Quebec shooter is guilty of murder, hatecrimes and terrorisim. Has there been any discussion regarding if he had been previously known to police/ suspected of this type of stuff and where he got a hold of the firearm/s?

Paladin1

alan smithee wrote:

There are those on this board with political views that don't belong on a progressive board.

alan smithee wrote:

Muzzling me for stating an opinion is not progressive..It's regressive and closed minded ideology.

Kettle this is pot..

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

I think the thread was started with the idea we should focus on the victims. There's been significant drift, but no, I don't think those issues have been discussed.

ETA: Being anti capital punishment isn't in the policy so far as I know, but it's a progressive board and being in favour of capital punishment isn't exactly a progressive point of view.

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