Killings at Québec City mosque

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Paladin1

Unionist wrote:

If that's consistent with babble's policy, then we might have to look elsewhere for progressive conversation.

Weren't you just bragging about how you planned to violate Rabble policy (and harass the forum) if you got banned? 

No matter, I'm glad to see you apparently care about respecting the forum and it's policies again, welcome back!

 

 

 

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

montrealer58 wrote:

I think the discussion of "religion is a mental disease" is kind of disgusting on this thread. The killings were premeditated, and the intent was clear.

I agree. I think there is also a world of difference between a person who practices a religion peacefully and one who uses it to justify violence. Someone how we went from the second to the former. The second is a relevant topic and the former is disrespectful in this context.

My initial conext was questioning how and where one draws a line between extreme beliefs (such as religion) and mental illness. I agree this thread isn't the place to continue that discussion centered on religion (it looked to me like we recognized that and moved away from it without any promps). Maybe a decent topic to debate in another thread if someone is willing to start it.

 

Is a racist who pushes their beliefs to the point of murder someone who is afflicted with mental illness or are they simply a murderer who do not value human life? 

We know that one of the ways humans rationalize and accept killing another human being  stems from feeling they have authority to do so.  Maybe Alexandre Bissonnette's beliefs were so strong he felt he had authority to commit those murders?

Unionist

montrealer58 wrote:

I think the discussion of "religion is a mental disease" is kind of disgusting on this thread. The killings were premeditated, and the intent was clear.

Agreed, very much so.

Even worse is the attempt to focus on individuals, rather than systemic racism and xenophobia. It's the same line as the NRA. They never blame the gun culture. They never blame cops. They never blame systemic classism and racism and violence. Their motto is: "People kill people." And like Obama and others, their substitute for controlling guns is controlling people (known as "background checks").

Exactly the same apologist ideology is at work in this thread. It's abhorrent at the best of times, but particularly so in the wake of this massacre.

 

bekayne

https://ricochet.media/en/1659/merchants-of-hate-canadian-media-are-plat...

Merchants of hate: Canadian media are platforming Islamophobia

quizzical

why aren't there calls to action from a broad swath whe the CBC allows this shit to happen? had i known i would've mae a scene about it.

Sean in Ottawa

quizzical wrote:

why aren't there calls to action from a broad swath whe the CBC allows this shit to happen? had i known i would've mae a scene about it.

It is possible that, given the many claims that the CBC is left, that many who are of the left do not mind letting these toxic people remain  becuase  they are so loathsome that anyone who woudl appreciate them is already a lost cause, and becuase they serve to put the lie to the idea that the CBC is a radical left wing house. And they do so in dramatic fashion. The inclusion of these people may be the protection the CBC feels it needs from ongoing threats of being dismantled completely. The cost of reasonable  journalism be the cost of hosting the bile peddlers. The CBC audience is constantly threatened with the loss of the CBC so they might sign on to the program...

I am not saying I agree but it may be the explanation.

That said I think the CBC by failing to uphold a standard becomes what they want to never be. Although they can still point to some things no other media would cover and claim justification of means for the ends.

quizzical

huh going to think on it.

Sean in Ottawa

quizzical wrote:

huh going to think on it.

Just so long as you got that I was trying to explain it not defend it. I am conflicted becuase how do you accept the unacceptable even if you have a rationale or reason? Some of the things I have seen on the CBC have been completely inexcusable and this is the explanation I have come up with for them.

quizzical

i got it.

i stopped watching or listening to CBC years ago over Carole James harassment and their failure to report on it.

Sean in Ottawa

quizzical wrote:

i got it.

i stopped watching or listening to CBC years ago over Carole James harassment and their failure to report on it.

I am not familiar with this -- I do not live in BC. What happened?

NDPP

Canada Out of NATO! Quebec City Murders of Muslims Rooted in War on Terror

http://blackagendareport.com/canada_protests_muslim_murders

"Canada has participated in virtually every war the US empire has waged against Muslim countries."

bekayne

NDPP wrote:

Canada Out of NATO! Quebec City Murders of Muslims Rooted in War on Terror

http://blackagendareport.com/canada_protests_muslim_murders

"Canada has participated in virtually every war the US empire has waged against Muslim countries."

– end its punishing economic sanctions against Syria, Iran, and Russia;

Did not know that Russia was a Muslim country. Interesting.

lagatta4

While I certainly agree that Canada - and Québec - should get out of NATO (and it should be abolished) I think it is a bit far-fetched to see that as a major factor in the violent hatred shown by the suspected killer.

The local trash radio (radio-poubelle) stations are probably a much more immediate factor. People here and particularly in Québec have been protesting that vomit for years. They target Muslims (and people presumed to be Muslims), but also a host of other groups: other people of colour - there was a Haitian gang involved in an underage prostitution ring and a Haitian friend from Québec got a lot aof hateful comments and stares then the vomit brigade was generalising the activities of a gang to an entire community, Indigenous people (as usual), poor people (welfare bums etc...) women, in particular "feminists", unions, protesting students, Québec solidaire and what have you.

And calling a francophone Québecois "French-Canadian" in 2017? Is this 1962?

Unionist

lagatta4 wrote:

While I certainly agree that Canada - and Québec - should get out of NATO (and it should be abolished) I think it is a bit far-fetched to see that as a major factor in the violent hatred shown by the suspected killer.

Not NATO, lagatta - the thesis of the article is that it's rooted in the war on terror, which involves primarily Middle and Near Eastern countries that happen to predominantly Muslim. And I don't know what's in the mind of the killer, But I think that war on terror - which certainly has led to attacks on Muslims in North America, and which includes the thesis that where there are Muslims and mosques, there are potential terrorist cells - is obviously one of the first factors to look at in an attack like this. I'm surprised you would brush it off.

Quote:
The local trash radio (radio-poubelle) stations are probably a much more immediate factor.

Yes, they target Muslims and other minorities. But I've lived in Québec most of my life. And I don't recall a hint of anti-Muslim propaganda before 9/11. Do you? Think back. I think it's impossible to separate modern-day Islamophobia from the imperial ambitions of the U.S. and its "allies", from Iraq to Libya to Syria to the threats and attacks against Iran, etc. The timing is just too coincidental to be accidental.

Quote:
And calling a francophone Québecois "French-Canadian" in 2017? Is this 1962?

Ann Garrison is a USian, writing on a U.S. website. How is she supposed to know that "French Canadian" is taboo? Especially when anglophones all over Canada, and Québec, continue to use that term. And there are French Canadians all over Canada outside Québec. Don't be so picky!

bekayne

Unionist wrote:

Yes, they target Muslims and other minorities. But I've lived in Québec most of my life. And I don't recall a hint of anti-Muslim propaganda before 9/11. Do you? Think back. I think it's impossible to separate modern-day Islamophobia from the imperial ambitions of the U.S. and its "allies", from Iraq to Libya to Syria to the threats and attacks against Iran, etc. The timing is just too coincidental to be accidental.

It was there before 9/11. From 1979.

 

 

lagatta4

You are right, that is older than 9-11.

But I agree with Unionist about Islamophobia. I just thought that the NATO stuff was a bit far-fetched - and it certainly isn't because I'm fond of NATO.

I didn't know she was an American, and if so, don't know why anyone was quoting an American rather than someone who presumably knows a bit more about our society.

I think the Québec City hate radio has a HUGE influence on a certain type of person there. Including on the way my friend of Haitian origin was suddenly treated - he had lived there all his life.

Of course, this week they'll be standing up for Gerry against those fanatical feminists...

NorthReport

Dial half a dozen years later. Looking good Jenny, looking good. Best decision you ever made was to leave the disaster prone BC NDP.

https://thetyee.ca/News/2010/12/06/CaroleJamesResigns/

Unionist

Sorry bekayne, I was talking about Québec and the identity politics and Islamophobia peculiar to here. I have no clue what that Maclean's issue was about.

sherpa-finn

Unionist wrote:

Sorry bekayne, I was talking about Québec and the identity politics and Islamophobia peculiar to here. I have no clue what that Maclean's issue was about.

I am going to guess it followed the 1979 Iranian Revolution which itself followed on from the global Islamic revival of the 1970s that had been fed by the quadrupling of world oil prices. And made possible huge investments around the world in Islamic scholarship, publications, mosques, foundations, etc. that beagn to roll back the whole westernization agenda. 

lagatta4

True, but some friends from Iran and elsewhere wouldn't be so sanguine about the effects of the course the Iranian Revolution took.

There were some positive impacts for women, as their educational level has increased in leaps and bounds in Iran, including among classes that would never have been able to send a son to university, much less a daughter. But human rights are not merely "western" - and I'm thinking of the opinions heard from people who come from those parts of the world, not from Westerners, or from those who take the side of Western imperialisms.

Unionist

Geez lagatta, why do we have to talk about the Iranian revolution in this thread? Sorry, but it gets difficult to stick to a conversation.

sherpa-finn

Unionist's dismay at further thread drift notwithstanding, I just to clarify that in my intervention above, I was thinking more in terms of the cultural challenges to western hegemony that emerged around this time, rather than the more overtly political. I was a big fan of Edward Said in the day, - his work on 'orientalism' was helping to redefine post colonial cultural studies. 

We will now rejoin our regularly scheduled program ....

 

lagatta4

I didn't start that - was merely responding to another babbler who seemed overly sanguine about that process.

I don't know if there is a single Iranian in Québec City. All the Muslims (or people of Muslim culture and heritage) I've met there are Maghrebi, West African or Levantine. Perhaps there are a few South Asians.

As you say, people from those countries weren't even on the radar here before 9-11. They were sort of Mediterranean, or French. Not particularly "othered". The sea change was very traumatic for my friends here (in Montréal) from those countries. I remember a friend, born in Alexandria (Egypt, not eastern Ontario) who was grilled at customs when she was travelling to visit cousins in the US. Her family happened to be Coptic.

I think that what immigrants from those parts of the world are calling for even more than an end to such attention from the authorities is an end to systemic discrimination in the labour market. The men murdered in Québec were particularly well-educated, but in general immigrants from the Maghreb, West Africa and the Levant and other places where many people are Muslim are highly educated - and those accepted here speak and write excellent French. And many drive taxis or work at Van Houtte.

lagatta4

Andy Riga had a decent backgrounder about trash-radios in Québec City:

montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/quebec-citys-trash-radio-under-microscope-following-mosque-shooting

Another group they vilify is cyclists. If I recall, CHOI actually called on motorists to mow us down.

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

If radio poubelle did in English in Toronto what they do in French in Quebec City the CRTC would close them down.

NDPP

Massacres of Muslims: In Canada Condemned, In Yemen Condoned

http://journal-neo.org/2017/02/07/massacres-of-muslims-in-canada-condemn...

bekayne

NDPP wrote:

Massacres of Muslims: In Canada Condemned, In Yemen Condoned

http://journal-neo.org/2017/02/07/massacres-of-muslims-in-canada-condemn...

So how is this "trutherism" different from The Rebel's? The first half of this could have been written by Ezra Levant.

voice of the damned

bekayne wrote:

NDPP wrote:

Massacres of Muslims: In Canada Condemned, In Yemen Condoned

http://journal-neo.org/2017/02/07/massacres-of-muslims-in-canada-condemn...

So how is this "trutherism" different from The Rebel's? The first half of this could have been written by Ezra Levant.

You know the old saying "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail?" The writer is desperate to find a cui bono angle to construct a false-flag theory, but can't come up with a coherent explanation as to how anyone DOES benefit from the mosque massacre.

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

bekayne wrote:

NDPP wrote:

Canada Out of NATO! Quebec City Murders of Muslims Rooted in War on Terror

http://blackagendareport.com/canada_protests_muslim_murders

"Canada has participated in virtually every war the US empire has waged against Muslim countries."

– end its punishing economic sanctions against Syria, Iran, and Russia;

Did not know that Russia was a Muslim country. Interesting.

You have an interesting way of cutting an pasting to try and make an article look silly when really anyone who reads the article would know you are just being an ass and trying to discredit without any basis. Your Trumpish use of partial facts is hilarious.

From the same article.

Quote:

Ann Garrison: Ken Stone, the Hamilton Coalition to Stop the War is against the entire War on Terror, not on just any one of the wars that the U.S. and Canada are waging in Muslim countries. Is that correct?

Ken Stone: That is correct. We regard Bush and Obama’s War on Terror as really a War of Terror against the mainly Arab and Muslim people of the Global South, in order to steal their energy resources and to use their strategic locations after they’ve been conquered to further encircle those countries that the U.S. deems their competitors on the global chessboard, including Russia, China, and Iran.

http://blackagendareport.com/canada_protests_muslim_murders

 

Unionist

lagatta4 wrote:

I didn't know she was an American, and if so, don't know why anyone was quoting an American rather than someone who presumably knows a bit more about our society.

Lagatta - I recommend that you re-read the article. It's from an American (U.S.) website called Black Agenda Report. It's reporting about the Québec mosque massacre. But it's mainly reporting about the fightback against Islamophobia and imperialism by the Hamilton Coalition to Stop the War.

The "French Canadian" reference you objected to is made by the U.S. interviewer - Ann Garrison - not by the interviewee, who is Canadian (Ken Stone). No one is "quoting an American". The thrust of the article is to highlight the work and the analysis of the Hamilton Coalition. Here is their statement which triggered the interview.

It's unfortunate that some here are picking apart this interview in order to push a different agenda. The Black Agenda Report is an important (IMHO) vehicle of anti-imperialist news and opinion from inside the belly of the beast. It's subtitle is "News, information and analysis from the black left." We need more like it.

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