NDP Ex-MPs to rock Couillard's world?

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lombardimax@hot...
NDP Ex-MPs to rock Couillard's world?

Now with three dozen or so NDP ex-MPs from Quebec, that is a tremendous base from which to start up the provincial NPD and rattle Couillard and his austerity agenda.

swallow

Or a great base on which to expand the existing Quebec Solidaire Party, into which the Quebecn NDP's members merged years ago. 

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

In my riding,there's soon to be a Québec by-election.Today I saw  political posters for a candidate for the Conservative party of Québec.

Question. How many fucking right wing parties does Québec need? Last count we now have 4 out of 5.

Québec NEEDS a provincial NDP party. Why it hasn't materialized yet is beyond me.

lombardimax@hot...

Swallow, there needs to be a federalist alternative on the left to Couillard's Liberals. Solidaire was a sovereignist splinter from the NPD. The federalist splinter abandoned provincial politics. Pierre Ducasse is the current leader of the new NPD.

Pondering

swallow wrote:

Or a great base on which to expand the existing Quebec Solidaire Party, into which the Quebecn NDP's members merged years ago. 

QS is far more radical than the NDP and they are sovereignist to use Lagatta's preferred terminology.

Quebec needs a moderate left non-sovereignist party. We don't have one. That is why the Liberals win so often and why they have a majority now and QS has less than 8% of the vote. 

This informal "deal" Quebec solidaire seems to think they have with the federal NDP sounds like dirty backroom politics to me if it's to prevent the emergence of a moderate left party. The lack of one is not forcing us to choose QS, it's forcing us to choose the right-wing Liberal party.

Pondering

lombardimax@hotmail.com wrote:

Swallow, there needs to be a federalist alternative on the left to Couillard's Liberals. Solidaire was a sovereignist splinter from the NPD. The federalist splinter abandoned provincial politics. Pierre Ducasse is the current leader of the new NPD.

I didn't even know it had been formed!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Democratic_Party_of_Quebec#Electoral_r...

On January 30, 2014 the Directeur général des élections du Québec registered the New Democratic Party of Quebec as a provincial political party.[9] Former federal NDP leadership candidate and federal and Gatineau municipal election candidate Pierre Ducasse was listed as the party leader.[10]

This is terrific news.

 

swallow

Smoke and mirrors, I'm afraid. Mulcair promised a provincial NDP would be formed some years ago. Ducasse formed it a while back. It has done nothing. It sat out the last Quebec elections. Mulcair voted Liberal, stating that his local PLQ member was really a New Democrat. 

Pondering, you can find existing threads that discuss this at length, if you're interested in reading what others think. 

QS is not a splinter of anything, it's a federation merging pre-existing parties, including the UFP, which absorbed the remnants of the last provincial NDP. 

Unionist

We've been discussing this for 3 years in [url=http://rabble.ca/babble/qu%C3%A9bec/quebec-politics-room-one-more-party]... thread[/url].

 

lagatta

It isn't a backroom anything, it is just what goes on here. It is well known that many QS supporters vote NDP, and vice-versa, and many work on each others campaigns. And they tend to support Projet Montréal, which scrupulously takes NO stance on the constitutional/national question. I worked for Boulerice on election day, and ran into at least three people I knew from QS in my Québec riding.

If anyone would vote for the corrupt PLQ rather than Québec solidaire, that is their problem. And inexcusable now as the Québec Green Party has become ecosocialist and has pretty much the same orientation as QS, except that they are silent or neutral on the national question.

Several federalists belong to QS, and several sovereignists belong to the Québec NDP. Not to mention the many people nowadays who would take a very different approach to the whole national question, and all the left is putting more emphasis on the recognition of sovereignty and the need for reparations to Indigenous natons.

bekayne

alan smithee wrote:

Question. How many fucking right wing parties does Québec need? Last count we now have 4 out of 5.

Enough to split the vote further

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

bekayne wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

Question. How many fucking right wing parties does Québec need? Last count we now have 4 out of 5.

Enough to split the vote further

It's quite a dingleberry. Québec is totally fucked up. I live here and I just don't get it. Federally people here lean one way (centre-left) and provincially? What a fucking embarrassment. The only leftist option can't best 13% support. Meanwhile,the other parties are just different shades of shit brown.

lombardimax@hot...

Unionist, the discussion may have begun 3 years ago, but there is a new twist here. The federal election scene is out of the way for another three or four years and now there is a bunch ex-NDP MPs that may be looking for a new project to join. Also, Couillard may have thought twice about assaulting the NDP senate platform if there had been more pressure in the National Assembly on his left federalist flank.

robbie_dee

Stephane Bedard just [url=http://montrealgazette.com/news/quebec/stephane-bedard-expected-to-quit-... resigned[/url] his Chicoutimi seat in the legislature. [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dany_Morin]Dany Morin[/url], a dynamic 29 year-old chiropractor and former NDP LGBT issues critic, was just narrowly defeated in his bid for reelection in the overlapping federal riding. Could he shift to provincial politics? I don't really care whether its for a provincial wing of the NDP or Quebec Solidaire or for that matter as a progressive independent, so long as voters can have a left alternative to the Liberals, CAQ and Peladeau-led PQ.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

robbie_dee wrote:

Stephane Bedard just [url=http://montrealgazette.com/news/quebec/stephane-bedard-expected-to-quit-... resigned[/url] his Chicoutimi seat in the legislature. [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dany_Morin]Dany Morin[/url], a dynamic 29 year-old chiropractor and former NDP LGBT issues critic, was just narrowly defeated in his bid for reelection in the overlapping federal riding. Could he shift to provincial politics? I don't really care whether its for a provincial wing of the NDP or Quebec Solidaire or for that matter as a progressive independent, so long as voters can have a left alternative to the Liberals, CAQ and Peladeau-led PQ.

Agreed. Québec politics is a sham. The 4 main parties,3 are right wing,and now there is a Conservative Party of Québec. How many right wing parties does this province need?

It's a joke and an embarrassment.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
How many right wing parties does this province need?

One for every right wing voter would be about perfect, no?

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
How many right wing parties does this province need?

One for every right wing voter would be about perfect, no?

Good point.

Debater

Chantal Hébert has basically said that it would be counter-productive for there to be a provincial NDP party in Quebec.

swallow

You say that as if you think it will convince people on babble, Debater. Surely you've learned that the best way to provoke many people here is to make an appeal to pundit authority? Do you do it on purpose? 

I agree with Hebert on that, of course. But I do think the NDP might do some good for progressive politics by endorsing a left-wing party in the provincial arena rather than a right-wing party, as the current NDP leadership does. 

Unionist

swallow wrote:

But I do think the NDP might do some good for progressive politics by endorsing a left-wing party in the provincial arena rather than a right-wing party, as the current NDP leadership does. 

Would make for a nice change. But I'm trying to visualize Tom Mulcair voting for Québec Solidaire... trying... trying... failed.

Misfit

Is seems to me that putting a provincial NPD party in will split the left wing vote.

Debater

swallow wrote:

You say that as if you think it will convince people on babble, Debater. Surely you've learned that the best way to provoke many people here is to make an appeal to pundit authority? Do you do it on purpose? 

I agree with Hebert on that, of course. But I do think the NDP might do some good for progressive politics by endorsing a left-wing party in the provincial arena rather than a right-wing party, as the current NDP leadership does. 

I wasn't making an "appeal to pundit authority".

I just thought I would mention the fact that Hébert wrote about the provincial dynamics in Québec a while back and that she pointed out that many progressive policies were achieved in Québec (eg. child care) without the existence of a provincial NDP.

Btw, I don't consider Chantal Hébert to be just some talking head "pundit".  She's someone who has written extensively about Québec and who has interviewed many of its provincial & federal leaders.  So she is an author and not just a useless "pundit" on a t.v. panel.

Anyway, when I find the more detailed piece I am referring to, I will post it here.

swallow

I like Chantal Hebert too, but I think your most common rhetorical device is often to back up your arguments or opinions by reference to someone who works in, oh, let's say political analysis. But let me rephrase. 

You say that as if you think it will convince people on babble, Debater. Surely you've learned that the best way to provoke many people here is to post a reference to what Chantal Hebert thinks? 

Unionist wrote:

But I'm trying to visualize Tom Mulcair voting for Québec Solidaire... trying... trying... failed.

It's not easy, but I can manage to picture him voting QS and then lying and say he voted Liberal, thinking this would assist in his quest for political gain. 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

So before the federal election -- and maybe even moreseo in the postmortem after it -- I hear that the NDP should have been further to the left, that the electorate would have handed them a mandate if they'd been more progressive than the Liberals.

And I occasionally hear that Quebec is a generation or so ahead of the RoC in various contexts, like accessible child care, or gender parity or what have you.

So how come QS only has 3 of 125 seats?

Aren't they basically what I keep hearing the electorate really wants?

quizzical

Mr. Magoo wrote:
So before the federal election -- and maybe even moreseo in the postmortem after it -- I hear that the NDP should have been further to the left, that the electorate would have handed them a mandate if they'd been more progressive than the Liberals.

And I occasionally hear that Quebec is a generation or so ahead of the RoC in various contexts, like accessible child care, or gender parity or what have you.

So how come QS only has 3 of 125 seats?

Aren't they basically what I keep hearing the electorate really wants?

oh, you're going to bother the Liberal propagandists who want the NDP to go away and those who want the NDP to be some kind of purist vehicle which is not possible to exist in this current world no matter how much we wish.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

No, I'm just curious why, if the electorate is holding their breath for a progressive alternative, and there is one, why its fortunes are so small.

swallow

So anyway, I've been thinking about how little we heard about the defeated Bloc and Liberal deputies who lost their seats in 2011, though a few of the Liberals are now back. I wonder if three of the NDP'ers who lost their seats will go back to McGill? 

Misfit

Here's my question...if Rene Levesque ran the PQ as a left wing NDP type party, how did it transform itself into a right wing party today? And, if the PQ is separatist, and the QS is left wing and separatist, like Mr. Magoo asked, why is the QS not connecting with voters when the PQ under Levesque was able to do so?

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Misfit wrote:
Here's my question...if Rene Levesque ran the PQ as a left wing NDP type party, how did it transform itself into a right wing party today? And, if the PQ is separatist, and the QS is left wing and separatist, like Mr. Magoo asked, why is the QS not connecting with voters when the PQ under Levesque was able to do so?

People have been rapidly devolving since the '70's

Debater

The Quebec Liberals & the PQ both held their incumbent seats in this week's by-elections, whereas the CAQ & QS did not make any new ground.

Status quo for Quebec Provincial politics for now?

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Actually, in my riding of Saint-Henri-Ste-Anne,the QS finished third not too far from the PQ and Liberals. They won a bit over 20%. No victory but certianly ground was made.CAQ finished below them with something like 5.9%

When people have finally had enough with Couillard and his clowns they may find the PQ far too simialr and that can work to the advantage of QS, appealing to old school péquistes.

It's going to be a long 4 years but people will eventually tire to this needless austerity and finally Québec will demnd 'real' change.That real change is QS. But because the PLQ are so far to the right,CAQ has been sounding mighty leftish defending public sector workersand te PQ defending the EMSB right to hold elections.So I imagine there will be a lot of half hearted opposition and heavyweight  pandering at the National Assembly for a while. Enough time for the 2 opposition parties (PQ CAQ) reveal themselves as anything BUT change.

There is enough time to create an Orange wave over here, I feel it's possible.

I'm alan smithee and I approve this message.

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

I was thinking of doing a parody right wing party called Les Chavaliers. We would have horses and crowns and heraldry, and campaign for Quebec's own monarchy.

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

I think a provincial NDP would be an interesting proposition in Quebec. It would lock provincial members to the federal party and vice versa, as it is in the other provinces. If that party were to rise, one of the other Quebec parties will have to fall. Otherwise the PLQ will wind up with a huge majority of seats. 

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I fail to see what's counter productive about an NDPQ. This province needs leftist choices. Currently  most Quebec political parties are varying degrees of right wing conservatism.

I disagree with Ms Hebert. Her words are not the gospel and she's wrong on this issue.

BetterOnTheLeft

A resolution passed at the General Council NPDQ is hoping to get a party functioning for the next election

http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2015/12/01/des-candidats-npd-aux-procha...
https://drive.google.com/a/salesforce.com/file/d/0B9zAAyd23HcpVVVYbTJUMG...

 

genstrike

So, are members of the NDP who are also supporters/members of QS or other parties going to be told by the NDP to quit QS or GTFO the NDP?

And, if so, how many will take the latter option?

lombardimax@hot...

genstrike wrote:

So, are members of the NDP who are also supporters/members of QS or other parties going to be told by the NDP to quit QS or GTFO the NDP?

And, if so, how many will take the latter option?

No, NPD would co-exist with other rival parties, as is already the case in other sub-national jurisdictions. Given the distinct nature of Quebec politics, I think it would be useful to consider some kind of non-aggression/coalition pact with Quebec Solidaire on the basis of "Agreeing to disagree on the National question" while sharing many other common values.

Unionist

lombardimax@hotmail.com wrote:

genstrike wrote:

So, are members of the NDP who are also supporters/members of QS or other parties going to be told by the NDP to quit QS or GTFO the NDP?

And, if so, how many will take the latter option?

No, NPD would co-exist with other rival parties, as is already the case in other sub-national jurisdictions. Given the distinct nature of Quebec politics, I think it would be useful to consider some kind of non-aggression/coalition pact with Quebec Solidaire on the basis of "Agreeing to disagree on the National question" while sharing many other common values.

With utmost respect, what exactly are you talking about?

The only reason NDP members in QC can support Québec Solidaire today, is because there is no Québec NPD. The instant that comes into being, members of the federal NDP must cease any and all support of QS (giving money, helping out, anything) - if not, they're in violation of the [url=https://secure.ndp.ca/membership_declaration.html]NDP Member Declaration[/url]:

Quote:
I hereby apply for membership in the New Democratic Party of Canada and the NDP in the province/territory of my residence where applicable. I promise to abide by the Constitution, policies and principles of the NDP both federally and provincially/territorially. I hereby state that I am not a member nor supporter of any other federal political party, nor a member or supporter of any other provincial or territorial party where there is a provincial or territorial NDP.

PS: When you join Québec Solidaire, you are not required to swear to monogamy.

lagatta

That makes our little party sound a lot more racy and thrilling than it actually is!

QS - come for the politics, stay for the lifestyle.

Unionist

lagatta wrote:

That makes our little party sound a lot more racy and thrilling than it actually is!

QS - come for the politics, stay for the lifestyle.

Ok, laughing out loud now... thanks for that, la chatte!!

lombardimax@hot...

I wonder what is the hold up in getting the new provincial Quebec NDP wing rolling. There seems to be a golden opportunity rising, in light of the Liberal corruption that is coming out here: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/upac-arrest-nathalie-normandeau-1... .

 

 

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

lagatta wrote:

That makes our little party sound a lot more racy and thrilling than it actually is!

QS - come for the politics, stay for the lifestyle.

So this could be a QS campaign poster?

lagatta

Yes, but of course they are both trans* people.

lombardimax@hot...

Apparently, Chantal Hebert sees signs that the Quebec provincial NDP may be about to ramp up:

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/04/14/ndp-turmoil-not-necessaril... .

 

lagatta

That would be a disaster - it would probably mean no seats for either QS or the NDP.

Party favour

alan smithee wrote:

Québec NEEDS a provincial NDP party. Why it hasn't materialized yet is beyond me.

Why does it need a provincial NDP when there's Quebec Solidaire? 

lombardimax@hot...

The need in Quebec politics is to provide a federalist-left option -- that is a left alternative to the Liberals and CAQ and a federalist alternative to the PQ. Quebec Solidaire does neither of these things.

Unionist

Ooo, yeah, a provincial NDP! But we'll need a LEADER.

Sounds like a good job for Tom Mulcair! He could promise $15 child care in a few years. Or maybe Rachel Notley? She could convince us of the need for a pipeline.

The NDP should try to revive its rotting federal corpse before bringing its paternalistic "federalist" right-wing politics to Québec.

lagatta

Yes, I was kind of hoping that the Parti vert would get a seat somewhere like NDG... their program is very similar to ours.

Meanwhile I'm hearing from Projet Montréal about the Montréal-Nord campaign (I don't belong to Projet Montréal either, but I do vote for them, and have friends in that party). Like the RCM before, they are very scrupulous to say NOTHING on the national question.

Pondering

lagatta wrote:

That would be a disaster - it would probably mean no seats for either QS or the NDP.

I don't understand why you think the NDP and QS are so similar. QS only has 3 seats and they are way farther left than the NDP.

The NDP would not be an alternative to QS (which is sovereignist) they would be an alternative to the Liberals. The majority of Quebecers do not want to separate from Canada leaving the Liberals the only party to vote for. With no NDP in Quebec Couillard could easily be elected again and again.

Seat Distribution 2012 election

Parti Québécois  54

Liberal   50

Coalition Avenir Québec 19

Québec solidaire 2

Seat Distribution 2014 election

Parti Québécois 30 (moving right)

Liberal 70

Coalition Avenir Québec 22  (founded in 2011/2012, right wing)

Québec solidaire 3 (founded in 2006) far left

Even if the Liberals only get a minority in the next election they would have CAQ to support their right wing agenda. The PQ isn't left anymore.

It seems like you want to have the only two choices in Quebec far left wing and right wing. That pretty much guarantees a right wing government for at least the next decade.

The NDP would take seats from the Liberals. If they also took seats from QS whose fault is that? CAQ was founded 6 years after QS and they are up to 22 seats. They are nationalist federalists.

It seems you want Quebec federalists (the majority) to have only a right wing choice.

QS should have been able to pick up the sovereignist left wing vote but it hasn't. Right wing (PQ, CAQ, Liberal) or QS means the right wing wins by a landslide every time. 

Unionist

Ken Burch wrote:

People who say they want a "left-federalist" option do have to confront this reality, though:

There is actually such a party in Quebec...Le Parti Verte du Quebec. 

If there is a huge potential support base for a left-federalist party, why is it that THAT party(which now describes itself as "ecosocialist", has been totally unable to gain any significant level of support at all?  

Hi Ken!

The Parti Vert (not "Verte") is not federalist. To its credit, it takes no position on the independence of Québec. It welcomes both "federalists" and "sovereignists" to join. In the event of a referendum, it states that elected members (if any), candidates, and members will be free to vote according to their conscience.

I like that position. But calling it "federalist" is false.

Let me know if you need a reference.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

I have to think that an imminent Sovereignty referendum is about as likely right now as a zombie apocalypse.  Where does QS stand on zombies?  Are they officially still human, having technically died?  Can we kill them without a permit?  Should cremation be mandatory??  Let's focus on the real issues, people.

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