NDP Ex-MPs to rock Couillard's world?

147 posts / 0 new
Last post
lombardimax@hot...

An interesting read below for anyone who questions Quebec Solidaire's commitment to socialism over sovereignty:

 

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/01/03/queb-j03.html

 

lagatta4

Not interesting at all. WSWS and the tiny sect behind it are utterly tone-deaf to the national question and labour and other social movements in Québec. I remember their carping during the Student Spring. They consistently support the dominant nation and deny the right to self-determination. I think that as Brecht said, they would like to dissolve the Québécois people and elect another people...

I'd also like to point out that the question of self-determination and sovereignty is only growing more complex with the growing recognition of the sovereignty and right to self-determination of Indigenous nations, which makes the question far more complex still, and requires looking at it in new ways. Different left currents that have joined QS - and others that haven't, have been saying this since Oka at least.

And for cripes' sake, they are angryphones!!!

(other political group) hailed indépendantiste nationalism as a form of “anti-imperialism” and supported the call for chauvinist language laws.

Mangez donc d'la marde!

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

swallow wrote:

The Quebec NDP will run in the next Quebec elections, says (interim?) leader Pierre Ducasse. Can't find anything in the English media but since it's in La Presse today, it will probably be in The Gazette tomorrow. 

[url=http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/politique/politique-quebecoise/201610/...ès plusieurs mois de consultations, le Nouveau Parti démocratique du Québec «enclenche» le processus qui l'amènera à présenter des candidats aux prochaines élections provinciales, a confirmé à La Presse son chef par intérim.[/url]

Ducasse has just put out an open letter that maps out the outlines of an NPDQ potential platform. [url=https://www.facebook.com/npdq2018/posts/680609272114551]RECHERCHÉ : PROJET DE SOCIÉTÉ. Lettre ouverte par Pierre Ducasse[/url]

If they do, they should only stand in ridings NOT held by QS.  There is no good reason for a QNDP to try to take seats already held by a left party.  It would be unforgiveable for a QNDP to do anything that resulted in those seats falling to the PLQ(or worse, to CAQ) on a split of the left vote.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

lagatta4 wrote:

Not interesting at all. WSWS and the tiny sect behind it are utterly tone-deaf to the national question and labour and other social movements in Québec. I remember their carping during the Student Spring. They consistently support the dominant nation and deny the right to self-determination. I think that as Brecht said, they would like to dissolve the Québécois people and elect another people...

I'd also like to point out that the question of self-determination and sovereignty is only growing more complex with the growing recognition of the sovereignty and right to self-determination of Indigenous nations, which makes the question far more complex still, and requires looking at it in new ways. Different left currents that have joined QS - and others that haven't, have been saying this since Oka at least.

And for cripes' sake, they are angryphones!!!

(other political group) hailed indépendantiste nationalism as a form of “anti-imperialism” and supported the call for chauvinist language laws.

Mangez donc d'la marde!

Mon Dieu!

I live on the West Coast of the US and have a better grasp of Quebec than those people do!  Where the hell did they get the idea that francophone Quebec workers were TRICKED into supporting sovereigntism?  Or that QS is part of a capitalist plot(a plot that apparently also includes "Pabloites", Stalinists AND Maoists-a coalition that sounds like an "opposites day" version of the People's Front of Judea/Judean People's front rivalry from THE LIFE OF BRIAN) to prevent the creation of a revolutionary party?  Was the WSW the one group on Quebec's left that wasn't allowed to join QS?  I ask that because the article sounds like somebdy settling scores.

genstrike

Never mind, found the answer

lombardimax@hot...
lombardimax@hot...

Karl Belanger gives his take on the new NDP-Q ...

https://translate.google.com/translate?ie=UTF-8&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Flac...

lagatta4

Yes, although QS remains small, it has more than doubled in size, become much younger and increased its following outside the Mtl metropolitan area signficantly. In part this is because of the Faut qu'on se parle (We have to talk) process started last year with a group of progressive people from different backgrounds, many of them young and not all from QS, on a long "listening" tour throughout Québec, even in remote regions, to grasp the concerns of people in regions far from Mtl and Qc.  https://www.fautquonseparle.org/

I don't know whether their book, Ne renonçons à rien, is being translated into English yet. It is supposed to be. 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

lagatta4 wrote:

Yes, although QS remains small, it has more than doubled in size, become much younger and increased its following outside the Mtl metropolitan area signficantly. In part this is because of the Faut qu'on se parle (We have to talk) process started last year with a group of progressive people from different backgrounds, many of them young and not all from QS, on a long "listening" tour throughout Québec, even in remote regions, to grasp the concerns of people in regions far from Mtl and Qc.  https://www.fautquonseparle.org/

I don't know whether their book, Ne renonçons à rien, is being translated into English yet. It is supposed to be. 

And I think those who wanted an NPD-Quebec have realized that they could only build such a party by being going scorched-earth on QS and focusing on destroying that party to the exclusion of all other objectives.-essentially, by doing unto QS as the old Canadian Communist Party used to do unto the CCF

Pondering

Ken Burch wrote:

lagatta4 wrote:

Yes, although QS remains small, it has more than doubled in size, become much younger and increased its following outside the Mtl metropolitan area signficantly. In part this is because of the Faut qu'on se parle (We have to talk) process started last year with a group of progressive people from different backgrounds, many of them young and not all from QS, on a long "listening" tour throughout Québec, even in remote regions, to grasp the concerns of people in regions far from Mtl and Qc.  https://www.fautquonseparle.org/

I don't know whether their book, Ne renonçons à rien, is being translated into English yet. It is supposed to be. 

And I think those who wanted an NPD-Quebec have realized that they could only build such a party by being going scorched-earth on QS and focusing on destroying that party to the exclusion of all other objectives.-essentially, by doing unto QS as the old Canadian Communist Party used to do unto the CCF

I think that's a stretch. I joined QS as a show of support for Gabriel Nadeau-Dubois. I still don't think they have a chance of winning power provincially. I just want their voice to be a little louder. A provincial NDP would have a strong chance of actually winning power in Quebec.

Edited to add:

I see a tendency from the left of assuming people are making decisions based on in depth knowledge or have shifted ideologically on insufficient evidence.

When the federal Liberals were bleeding support left and right it wasn't that voters had shifted ideologically or had even shifted their alligence to different parties. They never had any alligence to begin with. The orange wave did not signify a huge shift to the left. Instead it was a result of the NDP convincing people they were centrist. That was the same way Harper won. Trudeau's win is not evidence of some massive shift in political philosophy. Voters just thought he would run the economy and country better than Harper or Mulcair. Now most swing voters are back watching Survivor not question period.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

(self-delete. dupe post).

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

So Pondering, what's YOUR theory as to why NPD-Quebec is still not a thing?

 

pietro_bcc

I'm a member of the NPDQ and to answer the question of "why not vote QS which is already established" for me its because I'm an anglophone and while I have voted QS in the past (because I like their policies apart from separation) I will not vote for a separatist party who has a chance of winning (whether in a coalition with the PQ or on its own because of the 4 way split in voter intention.) Sure "you can vote no in the referendum", but a win by a separatist party doesn't just represent a referendum for our minority community. It represents another 10-20 thousand anglophones moving out of Quebec that we can never replace because of Bill 101, it represents further hospital and school cuts and closures (over and above what the Liberals already do), it represents a further degradation in our language rights. While I can vote no in a referendum, I can't vote no when it comes to those policies.

Without a change to Bill 101 our community is already dead (every census year shows that our population share in Quebec drops by half a percent or more) and without a change to Bill 101 we'll be gone within 20 or 30 years depending on the political situation, the morbid choice we have as a community is to continue bleeding out by voting federalist or to vote ourselves out of existence as a community by voting separatist. I vote continuing to hold on as a community in hope of a savior who will probably never come.

I've been attending the meetings held by the party regularly and will vote for the NPDQ candidate if there is one running in my riding. Finally left wing federalists have a choice, probably for the first time ever or at the very least since '76. I doubt we'll win a seat in the next election, but its not completely out of the realm of possibility for a new party in our province.

pietro_bcc

The NPD-Q will elect its new leader on January 21st.

http://montrealgazette.com/news/ndp-quebec-to-elect-new-leader-in-january

lagatta4

Pietro, anglofono? Davvero?

Having to communicate in French as a common language will not harm your community; on the contrary. Why on earth would progressive people of Italian, Hispanic, Lusophone etc origins rather learn English, a Germanic language? And living in French in no way compromises your ability to perfect your English, or your Spanish for that matter, in North America

It is bad enough that Celts from the Sceptered Isles were starved into emigration because sheep were more valuable than crofters, and then sided with their tormentors.

Why the fuck are you supporting national oppression? I don't really care whether or not you support Québec independence; I think the whole national question has seen a qualitative shift due to the demands of Indigenous peoples moving front and centre, as they should. The question is supporting self-determination and identifying with those who have experienced national oppression - or worse, genocide, in the case of Indigenous peoples (and perhaps Acadians, and certainly Métis).

Believe me, I understand why RIGHTWING Italophones, Hispanophones, Lusophones etc want to speak English: because money talks. Leftists should be in opposition to that kind of crap. Which in no way prevents them from learning English or any other language.

pietro_bcc

http://www.lapresse.ca/le-soleil/actualites/politique/201708/30/01-51288...

The NPD-Q will be launching its first ever candidate in the Louis-Hebert by-election, with former MP for Louis-Hebert Denis Blanchette

lagatta4

It doesn't matter very much because I doubt QS has much of a chance in that riding now, but it is a sterling example of the NDPQ's DIVIDE THE LEFT strategy.

When the NDP has so much to do to rebuild the Federal party (and turn it left à la Corbyn)...

Stockholm

QS has already divided the left by adopting a hardline sovereignist position and essentially telling anyone with federalist views that they are "persona non grata". If you want a unified left party in Quebec, how's about dropping the separatist garbage and instead devoting 100% of your time talking about social conditions and income inequality

lagatta4

Look who's back as a tag-team partner!

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Stockholm, would you mind telling the rest of us what exactly you're holding such a bitter grudge against Quebec francophones about?  You've made it sound as if they hounded you out of the place. 

Out with it already.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Quebec Independence – A Key to Building the Left in Canada

The program introduction speaks of “convergence” as the goal. And it speaks of an impasse between the lefts in Quebec and Canada, implying a divergence. So I’ll begin by exploring this. In what follows I will focus on what can be termed the political left, seeking political solutions to the problems addressed more generally by the various social movements. And I will treat the New Democratic Party (NDP) as a part of the broad “left” in English Canada, for reasons I explain later.

Generally speaking, the socialist project is to “change the world by taking power” – that is, building powerful anticapitalist social forces and parties capable of winning control of the state and using government to help build a new anticapitalist popular sovereignty based on decentralized grass-roots participatory democracy.

However, how we think of “taking power” differs between the lefts in Quebec and the Rest of Canada (ROC). In Quebec, socialists have historically oriented to breaking from Canada and creating a sovereign state. In the rest of Canada the left seeks power in Ottawa, hoping at best to use the central government to reform, not dismantle, the central state. To understand this difference, which is crucial, we need to understand how the existing state is viewed in Quebec.

The Canadian State

Both lefts can agree that the Canadian state is historically based on the theft and occupation of indigenous lands and the genocide of their peoples; the British Conquest of the French settlers, the defeat of the latters’ Rebellion, and their subsequent marginalization outside of Quebec. The state that resulted, the bulwark of the class rule of the Canadian capitalists, including their Québécois counterparts, is thoroughly integrated within global imperialism....

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

quote:

Quebec’s subordination to the central state structures underpins its oppression – it lacks the powers needed to fully defend its existence as a nation, let alone implement a progressive social agenda. That is why rising social struggles (as in the 2012 Maple Spring upsurge), to the extent that they advance an emancipatory politics, point to the need for national independence. Québécois resistance to their oppression is the major fault line within Canada as a social formation and it is a key source of political and social instability.

The ROC left historically has struggled with Quebec’s national consciousness. For this left, it complicates, even blocks the fight for governmental power in Canada. For example the NDP, with a long record of opposition to Quebec nationalism, has most recently tipped its hat to Quebec self-determination in its Sherbrooke Declaration. But even this document aims, as it says, to attract Quebec support for the NDP’s own project of reforming the central state and giving it further powers. (More on this later.)

Apart from some very small political currents that claim adherence to the Marxist legacy, the Anglo-Canadian left for the most part seems baffled by Quebec’s national question. Some may formally claim to respect Quebec’s democratic right to national self-determination, but in practice they are inclined at most to accept or support minor constitutional reforms devised to win Quebec’s acceptance of the Constitution, as we saw in the case of ROC left support to the unsuccessful Meech Lake and Charlottetown accords – the latter rejected by a majority of Québécois in a referendum. The ROC left’s unresponsiveness to Quebec’s national demands deepens its rupture with Quebec progressive opinion.

I think the Canadian left should stop seeing Quebec as a problem or simply hoping to neutralize the effect of sovereigntist sentiment by formally supporting Quebec’s right to self-determination. Instead, it should adopt a pro-active approach, viewing the Quebec independence movement as a strategic ally, an opportunity to break this current impasse on the left and, by recognizing Quebec secession as a potential key to dismantling the oppressive Canadian state structures, to open the way toward rethinking “power” as a reconceptualization of state and government in terms of establishing popular sovereignty.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

quote:

As a reformist party, the NDP is unable to contemplate a break-up of the central state. Its politics are entirely oriented to operating within or at best reforming that state, not destroying it. This is part of its DNA. It promotes a homogenizing politics, unable to accommodate the different dynamic of Quebec’s national struggle.

The NDP voted for unilateral patriation of Canada’s constitution in 1982 in the face of Quebec opposition. In the early 1970s it expelled the left-wing Waffle, which supported Quebec self-determination.[2]

Did the 2011 federal election, when the NDP managed to elect a majority of Quebec MPs, disprove this historical record? On the contrary. That result reflected a confluence of several factors, all of them conjunctural. Traditionally, the Quebec Francophone electorate votes defensively and pragmatically in federal elections, either to help elect a government with the most MPs from Quebec or to prevent parties perceived as relatively hostile to Quebec from winning government. Following the defeat of the Meech Lake Accord, however, the Bloc Québécois (BQ) provided an alternative opportunity to promote “Quebec interests” in Parliament, helping to fend off unwanted federalist incursions on Quebec jurisdiction.

But the BQ is confined to Quebec. In 2011, when it was suffering from the the decline of the PQ and the Harper Tories were threatening to form a majority government, Quebec voters sought a federal option that could more effectively defend them from that danger. The NDP under Jack Layton was able to position itself as the alternative, helped by the apparent tolerance of Quebec self-determination expressed in the party’s Sherbrooke Declaration. The NDP proved unable to sustain that support, especially with Thomas Mulcair as its new leader. Even before his ascendency, the party’s resistance to Quebec nationalism was revealed when it forced leading MPs like Nycole Turmel (the interim leader) and Alexandre Boulerice to drop their QS (and Bloc) memberships. This was a bottom-line issue for the NDP. And since then the party has been unable to sink roots in Quebec. It is barely hanging on to its reduced caucus of 16 MPs, its membership is down to fewer than 5,000 (Le Devoir, Aug. 30), and efforts to build a “provincial” Quebec NDP have gone nowhere.

So the Quebec electorate has reverted to its old pattern of voting for what it perceives to be the “lesser evil” – in 2015, the Trudeau Liberals – to the detriment of the NDP.

lagatta4

And of course that is why the brilliant parliamentarian Alexandre Boulerice can't even contemplate standing for the NDP leadership.

I'd never vote for the Liberals - I'm old enough to remember the War Measures Act and its use in hauling in trade-unionists, social movement activists and the opposition FRAP party, though I wasn't of voting age, while the rather incompetent terrorists of the FLQ were discovered and arrested by normal police methods. Nor the Bloc, when Gilles with whom I'd worked with the CSN on unionizing immigrant workers, gave in to borderline xenophobia in the guise of secularism.

Note, I hate religious dress inflicted far more on women than on men, whatever the religion. But the ad was not aimed at helping oppressed women. It was that kind of dog whistle to voters in region where there is no veil but those of a few antiquaited Catholic orders (most nuns nowadays dress modestly , but like everyone else) to say nothing of niqabs. I have never seen one in Villeray or Rosemont-Petite-Patrie, though there is a large Maghrebi population. Nearby, only in Park-Ex, and very, very few.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

quote:

That said, what can be some common campaigns with shared objectives of the broad left in both nations? I’ll mention only two obvious ones – fighting capitalist austerity and fighting for climate justice, especially in opposition to the extractivist economic model – both issues offering important opportunities for forging class alliances with indigenous activists. The key role of the indigenous in leading the fight against climate change, in particular, is signalled in the Leap Manifesto (even though the Manifesto ignores the progressive potential of Quebec independence in posing a real governmental alternative).

Like the Québécois, indigenous militants have little reason to limit their demands to what is possible within the context of the existing state. And in Quebec, they have what can be an important ally. The Québec solidaire program acknowledges the sovereignty of “the ten Amerindian peoples and the Inuit people who also inhabit Quebec territory.”[3] And QS pledges its support to their “fundamental right” to national self-determination, however they may choose to exercise that right – whether through self-government within a sovereign Quebec or through the political independence of their own communities, which cover almost half of Quebec’s present territory.

It remains to be seen what the NDP will commit to next year when it determines its position on the Leap Manifesto, but whatever that decision the party cannot be relied on to incorporate or implement the thinking behind the Manifesto. A key test for the federal NDP will be how it approaches the pending confrontation between the party’s governments in Alberta and now British Columbia over the future of tar sands oil pipelines.

last quote:

In a recent book chronicling a tour of his electoral constituency in Northern Quebec,[4] Romeo Saganash, a Cree leader and as it happens an NDP member of the federal parliament, expresses an idea that must surely have occurred to other indigenous activists. “There has never been a country constituted with the participation of the First Nations. The sovereignty of Quebec could be the opportunity for that!,” Saganash tells the book’s author, a French woman. She says he spoke seriously: “an independent Quebec could be the framework within which the First Nations would win emancipation.”

robbie_dee

pietro_bcc wrote:
The NPD-Q will be launching its first ever candidate in the Louis-Hebert by-election, with former MP for Louis-Hebert Denis Blanchette

lagatta4 wrote:
It doesn't matter very much because I doubt QS has much of a chance in that riding now, but it is a sterling example of the NDPQ's DIVIDE THE LEFT strategy.

When the NDP has so much to do to rebuild the Federal party (and turn it left à la Corbyn)...

I've said this before and I'll say it again. The national question is an important one but it is far from the only one and I would think Quebecer's day-to-day lives are more impacted by 30+ years of unrelenting neoliberalism coming from the dominant Liberal , PQ, and ADQ/CAQ. Why can't there be an electoral alliance? Run NDPQ candidates in anglo ridings or rural Quebec where QS lacks a presence. Commit that a joint QS/NDPQ government would immediately implement proportional representation (to end vote-splitting) and remain free to campaign on opposite sides of any future sovereignty referendum?

NorthReport

Intriguing, but will the NPDQ visions of grandeur overrule common sense.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

robbie_dee wrote:

pietro_bcc wrote:
The NPD-Q will be launching its first ever candidate in the Louis-Hebert by-election, with former MP for Louis-Hebert Denis Blanchette

lagatta4 wrote:
It doesn't matter very much because I doubt QS has much of a chance in that riding now, but it is a sterling example of the NDPQ's DIVIDE THE LEFT strategy.

When the NDP has so much to do to rebuild the Federal party (and turn it left à la Corbyn)...

I've said this before and I'll say it again. The national question is an important one but it is far from the only one and I would think Quebecer's day-to-day lives are more impacted by 30+ years of unrelenting neoliberalism coming from the dominant Liberal , PQ, and ADQ/CAQ. Why can't there be an electoral alliance? Run NDPQ candidates in anglo ridings or rural Quebec where QS lacks a presence. Commit that a joint QS/NDPQ government would immediately implement proportional representation (to end vote-splitting) and remain free to campaign on opposite sides of any future sovereignty referendum?

That's pretty much what I suggested above, but that would require the NPD-Q to admit that QS needs and deserves to exist.  The hard-line federalist types still see the idea of Quebec self-determination(even though it's perfectly posssible to support that AND be committed at the same to working to preserve confederation)as "that childish nonsense people just have to get over".

 

pietro_bcc

robbie_dee wrote:

pietro_bcc wrote:
The NPD-Q will be launching its first ever candidate in the Louis-Hebert by-election, with former MP for Louis-Hebert Denis Blanchette

lagatta4 wrote:
It doesn't matter very much because I doubt QS has much of a chance in that riding now, but it is a sterling example of the NDPQ's DIVIDE THE LEFT strategy.

When the NDP has so much to do to rebuild the Federal party (and turn it left à la Corbyn)...

I've said this before and I'll say it again. The national question is an important one but it is far from the only one and I would think Quebecer's day-to-day lives are more impacted by 30+ years of unrelenting neoliberalism coming from the dominant Liberal , PQ, and ADQ/CAQ. Why can't there be an electoral alliance? Run NDPQ candidates in anglo ridings or rural Quebec where QS lacks a presence. Commit that a joint QS/NDPQ government would immediately implement proportional representation (to end vote-splitting) and remain free to campaign on opposite sides of any future sovereignty referendum?

The NPDQ is another distinct political option that will take votes from both the Liberal Party (progressives who vote Liberal because they're the only federalist option) and QS (progressives who vote QS because there is no progressive federalist option, like me.) I don't know why people have this idea that the NPDQ should be the only party in Quebec that should not seek to get every vote they can possibly get and should apologize for any possible success they get. And this is on both the QS and Liberal side. Some of my Liberal friends have told me that the NPDQ will split the anglo vote and let the PQ win.

Perhaps the neoliberalism of the Liberal Party Quebec has had a bigger impact on Francophones than the sovereigntist movement, that is not the case with my community. It is no exageration to say that the sovereigntist movement and the language laws they have brought have broken up anglo families and communities. There seems to be some denialism among some in the francophone media regarding the fact that there was a mass exodus in both '76 and '95 and there continues to be a significant though smaller exodus to this day with every graduating university class. It may not be among the biggest issues for most Quebeckers, but it is among the biggest issues for our community because its an issue of survival, another referendum means another exodus at '95 era levels.

progressive17 progressive17's picture

Despite the left-right and the sovereignist-federalist axes, I think it is good that the QS has gone on a listening tour and seen their numbers go up as a result. Public consulations have worked very well. If you boil it down to a common thread it is definitely what the people want to hear, and can form the basis of a campaign platform which should do well.

The angryphone rant seems not to include allophones. I work with a lot of allophones, and they are quite happy to learn as many languages as they can. Of course, the official language at work has to be French, but it is a limited vocabulary as we are in specialized work. After a while, you don't really realize you are speaking French, which is probably a sign you have learned it.

Anglophones and allophones want to learn French for work and social purposes, and francophones and allophones want to learn English in case they want to leave Quebec some time and visit the rest of North America.

I think that saying someone is a right winger because they want to learn English is especially hypocritical if you yourself speak English. Be careful how you use His Master's Voice. *ahem*

lagatta4

That is not the point. It is not a matter of whether people learn languages other than French: the more the better. It is a matter of whether they function in society in French. I don't think anyone opposes language learning; many oppose assimilation.

The problem is that the NDPQ is scabbing on a much more progressive party; one of the most progressive anywhere in the parts of North America north of the Rio Grande.

Angryphones, like La Meute types chez les francos, can simply stuff it. They are equal and opposite reactionaries.

I speak and write three languages fluently and two others to a fair extent. I believe we have the most trilinguals in North America here in Montréal. And I know several people here who speak more languages than I do.

As for his master's voice ... Hmm, macho posters...

lombardimax@hot...

The new party has a website in anticipation of the upcoming byelection: http://www.npdq.site/louishebert

 

 

lagatta4

Fucking scabs. You have a lot on your plate to build the Federal NDP without dividing the left. You do know, I presume, that many of the people who worked on Alexandre Boulerice's campaigns are QS activists ?

http://appuyez.quebecsolidaire.net/guillaume-boivin

The Québec solidaire candidate: http://www.lapresse.ca/le-soleil/actualites/politique/201709/10/01-51320...

pietro_bcc

I'm glad that we left wing federalists finally have a choice. I hope Blanchette at least gets a 3rd place showing in this election (ideally I hope he wins, but that's pretty much impossible for a small party's first by-election. Finishing ahead of the PQ, Liberals or CAQ would give the party what they need most at this point of their formation which is media exposure.

lagatta4

vafanculo pietro. I hate scabs. And national oppression. Odio i crumiri e l'oppressione nazionale...

By the way, I am not a "nationalist"; I support the same rights for Indigenous nations as for the Québécois nation. If we lose almost half "our" territory, so be it. The question is national self-determination. And here, people scabbing on a decade-long struggle for a truly leftist party.

You are out above all to destroy Québec solidaire. Fuck you.

lagatta4

How on earth did angryphones (crap similar to men's rights activists, white-nationalists and other defenders of upper-class WASP domination) ever find their way to rabble, founded by people who were forthrightly on the left and for the downtrodden?

pietro_bcc

lagatta4 wrote:

vafanculo pietro. I hate scabs. And national oppression. Odio i crumiri e l'oppressione nazionale...

By the way, I am not a "nationalist"; I support the same rights for Indigenous nations as for the Québécois nation. If we lose almost half "our" territory, so be it. The question is national self-determination. And here, people scabbing on a decade-long struggle for a truly leftist party.

You are out above all to destroy Québec solidaire. Fuck you.


How on earth did angryphones (crap similar to men's rights activists, white-nationalists and other defenders of upper-class WASP domination) ever find their way to rabble, founded by people who were forthrightly on the left and for the downtrodden?

Interesting, I'm the angryphone yet you seem a lot angrier than me? Why the constant insults and telling me to go fuck myself?

Anyway, I'll still address what you said point by point.

Quebec is not nationally oppressed and was given the right to self determination, they had two referendums on the issue (one of which they cheated in) and they lost both. Quebec has determined its future, they just disagreed with you and other sovereigntists and chose a future within Canada, twice.

I am not out to destroy Quebec Solidaire, if I was I wouldn't have voted for them in every election since their founding. I just now have a better option.

As for how I got on this site and why I am on a site for leftists? I was under the impression that leftists advocate for minorities that are discriminated against by legal statute and as a result are stigatized by the wider community and media and have a harder time finding jobs. White francophones who complain about being discriminated against in Quebec and complain about their culture being taken away from them are exactly like Texans who complain about the "War on Christmas" and how too many people are speaking Spanish, you're the majority no one's discriminating against you, you're doing the discriminating.

cco

Spanish isn't the majority language in 49 American states, and the group conducting the "War on Christmas", i.e. secularism, in this case, would be the majority group who got tired of religious domination of their own culture. If you're looking for an American example to compare Québec to, though, I have a good one: Anglophone Québecers (a group I belong to) are akin to white Americans in Detroit complaining they can't get elected mayor because black people are racist.

lagatta4

I wasn't mentioning or complaining about referendum results; I was complaining about people splitting and wrecking a party that many people far more progressive than you are have spent over a decade building.

And yes, I put angryphones in the same category as "angry white (English-speaking) men", men's rights activists and others who want to return to the good old days when women, francophones, people of colour etc. "knew their place". I'm probably older than you and I remember those times, and how people fought for those things to change.

lagatta4

Here is an interesting commentary by a member of the board of À bâbord! , a left media similar to rabble and ricochet:

http://www.ledevoir.com/politique/quebec/507749/des-idees-en-revues-la-l...

pietro_bcc

cco wrote:

Spanish isn't the majority language in 49 American states, and the group conducting the "War on Christmas", i.e. secularism, in this case, would be the majority group who got tired of religious domination of their own culture. If you're looking for an American example to compare Québec to, though, I have a good one: Anglophone Québecers (a group I belong to) are akin to white Americans in Detroit complaining they can't get elected mayor because black people are racist.

I didn't know that there were laws in Detroit that said that the race of business is black and that all business needed to be done by people with black skin. I didn't know there were laws in Detroit that say private businesses had to feature advertisements with faces that are predominately black so that there had to be 2X as many black people on any advertisement than white people with penalty of a fine. I didn't know there are currently laws in Detroit that prevent the majority black population and immigrants from attending underfunded white schools, which is meant as a way to choke the life out of white institutions to eliminate whites by attrition. I didn't know there were rags in Detroit like "Journal de Detroit" that slagged on whites on an almost daily basis in the opinions sections. I didn't know that politicians in Detroit regularly took turns to see how much they can demonize white people to appeal to black people in the hinterlands who have likely never even seen a white person.

Detroit must be a pretty messed up place.

To put it clearly, this is the legal situation in Quebec in regards to the english and french language. If these kinds of laws were present in any other country francophone leftists would cry foul, but this discrimination is okay because they're the ones doing it, after all they have to protect the 77% of people who are Francophones have to protect themselves from the 7.4% of people who are anglophones. The fact that the anglophone population is falling census after census is just more proof that french needs protection, a falling population is a sign of strength in a community.

Once again Francophones are the majority, they have all the power, anglophones have no power and no representation (other than a few token anglos like Birnbaum and Weil who do nothing to help our community). Not all anglophones are named Bronfman and Molson who are drinking their scotch and smoking their cigars in their mansion. In fact most aren't.

I wasn't mentioning or complaining about referendum results; I was complaining about people splitting and wrecking a party that many people far more progressive than you are have spent over a decade building.

And yes, I put angryphones in the same category as "angry white (English-speaking) men", men's rights activists and others who want to return to the good old days when women, francophones, people of colour etc. "knew their place". I'm probably older than you and I remember those times, and how people fought for those things to change.

You were talking about self determination, Quebec determined its future with their two referendums. Just because we chose a different future than you wanted doesn't mean we didn't choose it.

As for the rest I don't know where you came up with any of that, I just want anglophones and other federalists to have a political choice for the first time in 40 years and finally shed the default choice of the Liberals. If the NPDQ becomes something the Liberals will no longer have the anglophone vote by default, they'll have to earn it.

Also thanks for posting that article, I'll read it soon.

cco

pietro_bcc wrote:

To put it clearly, this is the legal situation in Quebec in regards to the english and french language. If these kinds of laws were present in any other country francophone leftists would cry foul, but this discrimination is okay because they're the ones doing it, after all they have to protect the 77% of people who are Francophones have to protect themselves from the 7.4% of people who are anglophones.

Interesting that you seem to think Québec's already an independent country. I do appreciate your standing up on my behalf, as an oppressed English-speaking white man in Canada. I must've had a really tough time since immigrating. One day you and Don Macpherson will have to tell me all about it.

That said, I won't join the bandwagon of slagging the NPDQ. No party, whether it's the Liberals or QS (or the federal NDP, for that matter), is entitled to voters. From what I'm hearing on the ground, it's the PLQ that's really in panic mode over "vote-splitting". I can't wait to see the look on their entitled faces as their 83% majority seats start to melt away.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
hat said, I won't join the bandwagon of slagging the NPDQ. No party, whether it's the Liberals or QS (or the federal NDP, for that matter), is entitled to voters.

I do get that vote splitting can be a crummy thing, particularly when someone with zero chance of winning manages to shave off just enough votes to keep someone else from winning.

But at the same time, it's an inevitable part of more electoral choice.  If a new party joins the list, their supporters are pretty much all going to come from existing parties -- it's not as though the electorate magically grows.

pietro_bcc

Also I just want to be clear, I'm saying that both anglos in Quebec and francos in the rest of Canada are discriminated against. I don't understand how some here find it incredulous that laws that specifically supress minority language rights can be considered discrimination against those whose mothertongue is a minority language.

The thing that the francophone media and most Quebecers don't get about those 83% majority West Island seats is that they can lose those more easily than you'd think, they lost them in '84 to the Equality party, they vote Liberal not because they love the Liberals but because they have no real choice (their "choice" is Liberals or another referendum). Look at the most recent polls the Liberals get around 70% of the non-franco vote, yet only about 50% of non-francos approve of the job they're doing (which means 20% at least vote Liberal despite disapproving of them, which is insane.) From what I've heard from some Liberal partisans they're more scared of the CAQ (since its a bigger party), but any mention of the NPDQ is met with a negative reaction of it being more vote splitting.

Even putting aside the West Island a shift in the anglo/allo vote in most Montreal ridings can shift who wins, even if they don't comprise a plurality in the riding.

Unionist

cco wrote:
pietro_bcc wrote:

To put it clearly, this is the legal situation in Quebec in regards to the english and french language. If these kinds of laws were present in any other country francophone leftists would cry foul, but this discrimination is okay because they're the ones doing it, after all they have to protect the 77% of people who are Francophones have to protect themselves from the 7.4% of people who are anglophones.

Interesting that you seem to think Québec's already an independent country. I do appreciate your standing up on my behalf, as an oppressed English-speaking white man in Canada. I must've had a really tough time since immigrating. One day you and Don Macpherson will have to tell me all about it.

In my decades of experience as an anglophone white male Jewish immigrant to Québec, irony doesn't have much impact on people that actually believe the kind of stuff being spewed here - but bon courage, keep trying.

As for the NPDQ, I expressed my views long ago. There is no legitimate place for them on the political landscape of Québec, as they have learned every time they tried to recreate themselves. Scaring the Liberals with a possibility of vote-splitting isn't good enough, in my opinion.

progressive17 progressive17's picture

I think the PLQ has more to worry about an NDPQ than QS. The NDP is quite right-wing by Quebec standards. What disgusts me and concerns me greatly is that with all the parties, there could be a "majority government" in Quebec on a popular vote in the very low 30s.

Pages