NDP Ex-MPs to rock Couillard's world?

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alan smithee alan smithee's picture

lombardimax@hotmail.com wrote:

First leadership debate:
http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/ndp-quebec-leadership-candida...

Best quotes:
Fortin said the provincial NDP is offering a voice for left-of-centre federalists. All the parties that currently have members in the National Assembly are either centrist, centre-right or sovereignist, he said. Québec solidaire, currently the most left-wing party in the provincial legislature, has been focusing more and more on its support for an independent Quebec, Fortin said. “It’s almost their first issue now.”

Côté said many Quebecers, rather than voting for a party they support, vote for the party they dislike the least.  “I believe that the electors in the province of Quebec want to have a new option.”

It's a pity they have 11 months to organize, elect a leader and get exposure. They should have done that at least 2 years ago and instead there's a big possibility we're going to end up with a CAQ government which is even worse than the current government in Quebec.

Things are going to get a lot worse before they get better. I'm getting older,not younger . I can't wait another 5-10 years or more for all I know.

It's too little,too late.

NorthReport

Finally!

Let's get this show on the road.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Democratic_Party_of_Quebec

pietro_bcc

I was at the debate and I'm quite impressed with both candidates. There's a video on the facebook group for anyone interested, though there's no video of the policy forum that preceded the debate, which was quite interesting itself.

lombardimax@hot...

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/montreal/if-qu%C3%A9bec-solidaire-and...

The slow motion train wreck of Quebec Solidaire selling its soul to hard-line nationalists in exchange for — crickets. Quebec progressives who are not hard-line sovereigntists will have a new home in the  Quebec NDP.

progressive17 progressive17's picture

... Further reducing the amount needed for a parliamentary phoney majority in the National Assembly...

lagatta4
lagatta4

Here is the qs communiqué on the merger: https://quebecsolidaire.net/nouvelle/congres-de-quebec-solidaire-les-mem...

I didn't attend; I'm very busy with work and billing, and still not feeling 100% after being very ill this autumn. I probably would have attended at least part of it if I lived in another riding, but I live in Gouin (GND's riding) so there was no shortage of would-be delegates.

swallow

From CBC link:

Quote:

Option Nationale officials, moreover, have been critical in the past of Québec Solidaire's dedication to multiculturalism and its defence of higher immigration levels. That's made QS members worried the party is sacrificing its progressive values for the sake of trying to build votes among more identity-focused sovereignists.

"I could go as an observer, but I don't have the heart to watch this party that I have been so committed to building go through a train-wreck," said May Chiu, an anti-racism activist who was a candidate for Québec Solidaire in the 2008 election.

Well put.

I don't intend to vote QS any longer. 

lagatta4

Actually, I think those more rightwing sovereigntists broke with ON over the planned merger with QS. There was a very progressive young woman candidate for ON in my riding, and if QS wasn't an option, I'd have voted for her.

lagatta4

Here is an opinion piece from Sol Zanetti against those who oppose "diversity": http://quebec.huffingtonpost.ca/sol-zanetti/sattaquer-diversite-replique...

I'm not at all an expert on Option nationale, but I think that the more rightwing "identitaires" have gone elsewhere with the rappochement with GS. Of course all of this remains to be seen.

Pondering

lagatta4 wrote:
By the way, I am not a "nationalist"; I support the same rights for Indigenous nations as for the Québécois nation. If we lose almost half "our" territory, so be it. The question is national self-determination.  

If the question is self-determination maybe you should respect what the people determine they want rather than opposing them based on what you want and believe is right. When Quebec sovereignists were at their strongest they were insisting that Quebec's borders would not change. They knew their support would be in the single digits if there was any hint that Quebec would not remain whole. The only chance the "sovereignty for elites" movement had of success was deceiving the people.

Is it QS's position or your position that Quebec's borders could change?

lagatta4 wrote:
And here, people scabbing on a decade-long struggle for a truly leftist party.

You are out above all to destroy Québec solidaire. Fuck you.

I'm in favor of democracy. You only want self-determination if everyone determines they want what you want.  From the history I just read it is QS that is the scab. If you are anything to go by QS wants to deny Quebecers the opportunity to vote for a social justice party unless they embrace sovereignty which the majority of Quebecers are against therefore QS is putting sovereignty ahead of social justice.

Québec solidaire is destroying Québec solidaire by putting its ideology over the wants and needs of the people of Québec.

Pondering

Ken Burch wrote:

So Pondering, what's YOUR theory as to why NPD-Quebec is still not a thing?

It's becoming a thing. From wiki:

The original party emerged from the Quebec Chapter of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation, and aside from temporarily holding a single seat in the National Assembly (David Côté) it only played a minor role in Quebec provincial politics. During the late 1980s it came under the leadership of radical sovereigntists, prompting a rupture from the federal NDP. It voted to disaffiliate from the federal party in 1989 and changed its name to the Parti de la democratie socialiste or "Party of Democratic Socialism" in 1994.

Apparently radical sovereignists took over and killed it. Sovereignists would rather Quebec be controlled by right wingers in the hopes it will convince Quebecers to embrace sovereignty. Instead it has lead to Quebecers embracing the right in the form of CAQ and the Liberals. The left is nowhere to be seen. They are off in corner somewhere committing suicide on the alter of sovereignty.

The more I pay attention to politics the more I see that there is no political party interested in representing the interests of the 99% as the 99% sees it. They either want to change what the 99% wants or they want to give them just enough to win elections.

Pondering

lagatta4 wrote:
Believe me, I understand why RIGHTWING Italophones, Hispanophones, Lusophones etc want to speak English: because money talks. Leftists should be in opposition to that kind of crap. Which in no way prevents them from learning English or any other language.

The elite of Quebec want only French spoken so they have a captive worker population that has trouble even vacationing anywhere in North America while of course they educate their own children in English so the wealthy have no such limitations. Makes it easy for them to rule Quebec and line their coffers.  I suppose you also want English CEGEPs starved so they can't accept as many  francophones?

Leftists should be against people making money? Yes, people definitely want to learn English because it helps their professional development which leads to increased income which leads to a more comfortable and secure life. That is not a sin. It doesn't make them right wing.

You may be 100% right in every view you hold, in every nuance of eco-feminism, but your intolerance of others puts you in the wrong because that is never right. You want to deny people a political voice. QS will win in my riding and I was going to vote for them in solidarity but you changed my mind. Even if the NDP doesn't have a hope in hell of winning my riding I will vote for them as a gesture of solitarity and gratitude for giving me a choice to vote left without voting for "sovereignty". 

lagatta4

Because you don't agree with me, you won't vote for the QS candidate (who won't be me; I have no interest in standing for office) in a riding where I don't live?

Not that any of this matters. I have a right to think and say what I want. So do you. Of course I want workers to be able to earn money. That is not what the phrase "money talks" means. It refers to what is now called the power of the 1%, or the moneyed elite. And since when was I against people learning as many languages as possible? That is NOT what the domination of English means, or the threat of assimilation. Moreover, Couillard is certainly not standing up for the defence of French, on the contrary. And the CAQ's solution is the reproductive slavery of Québécoise women... Duplessis relooked.

But your analysis of Québec history seems strangely blind to the very strong influence of labour and popular movements in movements for francisation and greater autonomy, up to and including sovereignty.

What I said about the rights of indigenous nations was my opinion, not the opinion of a party. But QS definitely stands in solidarity with the 11 Indigenous nations in Québec, as well as others throughout the world.

Pondering

lagatta4 wrote:
Because you don't agree with me, you won't vote for the QS candidate (who won't be me; I have no interest in standing for office) in a riding where I don't live?

I suspect your views concerning the NDP are similar to the rest of QS now that it has joined forces with ON. I am so fed up with the left's obsession with sovereignty over social justice. Yes I know QS is also concerned about social justice but they would rather lose elections over sovereignty than win them without it. I am sickened that this next election seems to be between the Liberals and the CAQ, both right wing parties willing to shut-up about sovereignty, and no left wing party willing to represent the majority of Quebecers except maybe the NDP a little tiny bit.

lagatta4 wrote:
 That is not what the phrase "money talks" means. It refers to what is now called the power of the 1%, or the moneyed elite.

The moneyed elite in Quebec are French not English.

lagatta4 wrote:
And since when was I against people learning as many languages as possible? That is NOT what the domination of English means, or the threat of assimilation.

No one is attacking French in Quebec. It is entirely within the power of the people of Quebec to be as French as they choose to be.

lagatta4 wrote:
 Moreover, Couillard is certainly not standing up for the defence of French, on the contrary.

How has he failed to defend French and from whom?

lagatta4 wrote:
. And the CAQ's solution is the reproductive slavery of Québécoise women... Duplessis relooked.

I hate CAQ and their rise is in part due to the Quebec left's focus on sovereignty over social justice.

lagatta4 wrote:
But your analysis of Québec history seems strangely blind to the very strong influence of labour and popular movements in movements for francisation and greater autonomy, up to and including sovereignty.

Just the opposite. Labour and popular movements were betrayed by the PQ. The Quiet Revolution was driven by a desire for social justice not separation from Canada. They were fooled into thinking their only enemy was English oligarchs leaving the French oligarchs off the hook.

Ever since then social justice has been in second place behind sovereignty association.

lagatta4 wrote:
What I said about the rights of indigenous nations was my opinion, not the opinion of a party. But QS definitely stands in solidarity with the 11 Indigenous nations in Québec, as well as others throughout the world.

Can't have it both ways. Either indigenous people have the same right to self-determination as Quebecers or they do not. Either QS is honest with people or they are not.

The truth is that Quebec's borders would likely change but sovereignists will never be honest with the people over that because they would lose whatever little support they had.

It really does seem to me that the left in Quebec is politically suicidal. They would rather lose to the right than give the 99% what they want to win elections then persuade them on other topics. Instead the left insists on 100% buy in on every topic and loses while the moderate left supports neoliberalism and loses. The only left that cares about trade deals are unions and the Council of Canadians. That includes Quebec. Quebec has signed on to CETA and TPP but I don't hear QS talking about that. Sovereignty is just so much more important. If I didn't know better I'd think QS was there to sabotage the left in Quebec.

This is the first entry on the QS website:

https://api-wp.quebecsolidaire.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/resultats-...

On the economic front they are anti-capitalist but they are all or nothing. At least they do oppose CETA, probably the only political party in Canada that does.

I am so sick of never having anyone to vote for provincially or federally.

 

 

 

 

lombardimax@hot...

"It's a big step forward for independence," Nadeau-Dubois said when the merger plans were announced in October.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/optional-nationale-votes-yes-to-q...

 

Pondering

lombardimax@hotmail.com wrote:

"It's a big step forward for independence," Nadeau-Dubois said when the merger plans were announced in October.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/optional-nationale-votes-yes-to-q...

Well he's got himself a job that will look great on his resume. I hope he doesn't really think this is actually a step forward for "independence". Quebec already decided, independently, to remain within Canada. Maybe someday politicians will put the interests of the people first but probably not in my lifetime.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

As a practical matter, even if QS were to be elected, I doubt they'd push for an immediate referendum or even necessarily do a referendum at all.  They would want the chance to pass their agenda, and going immediately to a referendum would pretty much force them to put that aside.  Also, they are aware of the poll numbers of 

Also, if you want the NPD-Q to be an actual alternative to QS,  you're going to need to push them to actually be a Left party...to be "QS with federalism".  They aren't going to win anyone over by taking a "we have no truck with any of that socialist nonsense-we're a MODERN 'center-left' party!" nonsense.  Is that something you plan to do if you end up supporting them?

And would you agree that there's no reason for the NPD-Q to nominate candidates in any of the current QS ridings, given that nobody but the PLQ and the CAQ would benefit from them doing so?  That it should not be the purpose of the NPD-Q to try and wipe QS out?

lagatta4

Well, in my riding it would be most likely to benefit the PQ...

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

lagatta4 wrote:

Well, in my riding it would be most likely to benefit the PQ...

​And you'd think that would be the LAST party Pondering would want to help.

Pondering

The NDP is closer to the Liberal party than QS on the political spectrum. QS is not in competition to win elections in Quebec. The best they can do is less than a handful of seats if that. The NDP could be competitive within a couple of years because they are not a leftist party. The official NDP is centre and they accept neoliberalism. Like the Liberals they just want to soften the edges.

As to the PQ, what does it matter? Quebecers have rejected separation from Canada twice. If the PQ is silly enough to try again they will lose again because the majority of Quebecers wish to continue using a Canadian passport. I was horrified that it looks like CAQ could win the next election but really what does it matter? It's not like it's going to change anything. The Liberals will probably win again anyway because they will open up the cookie jar before the election.

progressive17 progressive17's picture

The standard patter from sovereignist parties is to say the referendum will happen in the second mandate. Which means not at all. 

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