new language law enforment what do you think of it

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Lefauve
new language law enforment what do you think of it
bagkitty bagkitty's picture

If the stores are refusing to comply with regard to signage that provides information (up to and including the nature of the store itself), off with their heads. If the kerfuffle is over a possessive apostrophe in a name or a stand alone brand name... find something worthwhile to be concerned about - start counting how many angels are doing the hustle on the head of your pin collection for example.

Gaian

Carole Beaulieu, redactrice en chef, L'actualite,has a letter in the Globe and Mail this morning tempering the April 2 column by Lysiane Gagnon (Language War Gets Personal):"Whereas the 'enemy' used to be the English langage, now it is anglophones themselves, even if they speak French fluently," Gagnon wrote.

"Globe readers deserve a more savvy take on what's really going on in Quebec than Ms. Gagnon presented in her column," writes Beaulieu. "Our poll and analysis points the picture of a paradox: anglo-Quebeckers' formidable investment in learning French on the one had and apparent lack of concern for the future of French and rights of francophones, on the other hand.

"We do not refer to anglo-Queckers as enemies, in quotes or otherwise. The sovereigntist political views of analyst Jean-Francois Lisee, a contributor to L'actualite for 30 years , are well known to all - as are those of the other guest analyst, federalist scholar Jack Jedwab, whose contribution Ms Gagnon did not mention.

"We feel our cover story helps to better understand an important piece of the linguistic puzzle, i.e.anglo-Quebeckers' attitiudes and opinions. We wanted to start a respectful, open-minded conversation on the subject and welcomed Montreal Gazette columnist Josh Freed as aspecial guest blogger on L'actualite.com."

Fortunately, the Globe and Mail, attempting truly national coverage, gives the subscriber a more complete picture of Canada than is available to Mainstreet, on whom the Conservative Party of Canada can work its propaganda machine...which includes the jottings of Gagnon.

DaveW

too bad, Lysiane is usually a bit more savvy, but fell into a stupid hole here ...

Carole Beaulieu is right:

"Our poll and analysis points the picture of a paradox: anglo-Quebeckers' formidable investment in learning French on the one hand and apparent lack of concern for the future of French and rights of francophones, on the other hand.

 

 

Gaian

She "fell into a stupid hole," or found a chance to encite and excite?

DaveW

she is usually not a provocateur, au contraire; much more the post-PQ (ah, the 70s!) bourgeoisie;

her most commented-on column this year may have been about the potential closing of Ogilvy's high-end store....

Unionist

Carole Beaulieu is wrong. Her poll is idiotic, poorly translated, and prejudicial - as [url=http://www2.lactualite.com/freed/2012/03/30/lettre-a-jean-francois-lisee... Freed[/url] explained.

Lysiane Gagnon is correct. The so-called "poll" asked a small sample of Anglo-Quebecers online (get a grip) the following exact question:

Quote:
“As a citizen of Quebec, I feel it is my duty to do my part to make sure that French remains the most important language here. Agree or disagree?”

Duhh, even I would probably say "disagree" on that one. "Duty" my arse. Josh Freed says that it's his pleasure to speak and defend the French language and send his kids to French school, but he's not in the military, so "duty"?

Finally, there is only one culprit in the piece - the real baiter, instigator, inciter - the PQ ideologue who keeps pushing and shoving the PQ toward ethnic nationalism, when it has long since opted for civic nationalism.

That culprit is Jean-François Lisée. He's smarter and more dangerous than any of the people I've named here. He's the one who took this stupid poll and [url=http://www2.lactualite.com/jean-francois-lisee/bonjour-mon-nom-est-j-f-l... it into an attack on Anglophones[/url]. I've already explained (in another thread) my personal experience with this provocateur. He will never be happy until he sees Quebecers dividing along ethnic lines and fighting each other. Since it's not happening, he needs to stoke the flames. It won't work.

Josh Freed responded well. But someone should reply to Lisée in far cruder language. It's all he deserves.

 

Gaian

Always good to hear the inside story. Shows to go you the importance of keeping Mainstreet up to date.

Any chance of that happening?

Gaian

Globe readers will be left confused, but will the readers of Josh Freed on the Gazette be enough to inform the entire anglo community? And will the francophone community come to understand the degree of imbalance in the question posed? A large number will be misled by the story in L'actualite.

Unionist

Gaian wrote:
Globe readers will be left confused, but will the readers of Josh Freed on the Gazette be enough to inform the entire anglo community? And will the francophone community come to understand the degree of imbalance in the question posed? A large number will be misled by the story in L'actualite.

See George, that's the real point. Quebecers are smart enough not to be fooled by the likes of that asshole Jean-François Lisée. We will not be fighting in the streets any time soon because of some lying poll and the self-serving hatemongering "analysis" stemming therefrom. We are a people of social solidarity and common sense.

The Lisées of this world are still stewing over the the May 2 election results. They will resort to any kind of fraud to tell Quebecers that "you were brainwashed - you were the victims of a Layton charm offensive - you voted against your own best interests - listen to me, I'm smart, I was educated in the finest Jesuitical traditions".

Trouble is, we're smarter. And we're unpredictable. And proud of it!

 

Gaian

I am delighted for the people of Quebec, particularly the metropolitan people who have access to the better newspapers.

Here in old Ontario, the readers of the Globe and Mail will not be given evidence of the polling question, and I'm sure a majority who do not have access to the inside story will be confused. But perhaps there will be a letter to the editor clearing it up, as did your posting. I scan the letter page first, each day, hopeful of seeing the wisdom of folks across the nation in print.It is very reassuring.

The people of the farms and small towns and cities who do not read the Globe should, of course, be exposed to the material that you have at hand to have a real understanding of the political situation there, but they will not . Not so much to be proud of here, perhaps, but we must try to put the word out. I will certainly advise my neighbours, over a drink on my front patio this summer. And thanks to rabbles' babblers, I'll be able to tell them much more. While they tell me about Poland and northern Ontario, and the Maritimes.

I just wish their children were all in french immersion classes like my granddaughter, and her mother before her.

Gaian

"But perhaps there will be a letter to the editor clearing it up, as did your posting. I scan the letter page first, each day, hopeful of seeing the wisdom of folks across the nation in print.It is very reassuring. "

And there it was this morning, a letter from Constance Dilley of Toronto:

"Carole Beaulieu (L'actualite Replies - letters, April 3) wants Globe readers to know 'what's really going on in Quebec,' taking excaption to Lysiane Gagnon's excellent column (Language War Gets Personal - April 2).

" 'What's really going on' is what has been going on since the province took a turn from cultural nationalism to political nationalism, and politicians started using nation and language as ramparts to keep peoples there separated from each other. Through the years, politicians have echoed the sentiment that 'others' were not proper citizens with equal rights - the most famous outburst being from Jacques Parizeau.

"I left after 32 adult years there. I was no alone among cultural workers to do so. Completely fluent in French, we were eventually made to feel our futures lay elsewhere. The fight for French survival, as even public intellectuals such as Jacques Godbout attest, is brave but doomed. This is what's going on there and is the reality that too many francophones are blinded to."

Now if only the readers of the Globe could be brought completely up to date and read the question that was posed in the poll, as you have relayed to the fortunate few here on babble:
“As a citizen of Quebec, I feel it is my duty to do my part to make sure that French remains the most important language here. Agree or disagree?”

I am going to pass that on to Globe readers in a letter this morning. Hopefully, the editors will accept it...sort of a coup de grace for one side in the ongoing exchange of letters.In fact, the letter from Constance Dilley only leaves one angry at "Quebec" if one does not know the machinations of those behind the cultural warring of one side.

But of course it all underlines my point, that it is NOT a matter of intelligence versus ignorance. It is simply a matter of access to the heart of what's going on, whether Mainstreet winds up misled or not.

We babblers are truly "blessed," but we should understand what that means for those who are not, and be able to articulate it with more openness than speakers at a convention of constipated morticians.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

Is there an online link to that Globe and Mail poll or Letters to the Editor? I can't find it. Maybe it's expired.

Unionist

Boom Boom wrote:

Is there an online link to that Globe and Mail poll or Letters to the Editor? I can't find it. Maybe it's expired.

The letter Gaian quoted (pretty well in full I think) can be found [url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/letters-to-the-editor/april... by scrolling way down. It's a pretty offensive letter, but you know, if people hate Québec so much they feel they need to leave, more power to them and a better society for us.

As for the poll, it wasn't the Globe - it was CROP-L'actualité-98.6 FM. The full results are [url=http://www2.lactualite.com/jean-francois-lisee/files/sondage-anglo-crop-..., in PDF form - all 96 pages worth[/url]. And the various blog posts by Lisée, Josh Freed, Beaulieu, are [url=http://www.lactualite.com/societe/quel-avenir-pour-le-francais-montreal]....

 

Gaian

Yes, the Globe only carries the discussion of people to the limit of their Knowledge, not their Intelligence.

I got the letter off to the Globe a few minutes back, and I'll go find it now for reference here.

You unfortunately fall back on the conditioning of a public by those in the know: "The letter Gaian quoted (pretty well in full I think) can be found here by scrolling way down. It's a pretty offensive letter, but you know, if people hate Québec so much they feel they need to leave, more power to them and a better society for us."

That letter writer didn't feel at home in Quebec, but I hope that her perusal of the poll's wording - should it be published by the Globe - will perhaps ring a bell for her about the degree to which the racist Parizeaus of this world can affect opinion at any one time.

Again, nothing to do with intelligence, as some famous progagandists in history have shown.

Gaian

Yes, here's my letter this morning:

The Editor:

"Some people who really know "what's going on in Quebec" (ongoing letters, April 3 and 4) say that the question posed to those bilingual anglophones was worded in this fashion: “As a citizen of Quebec, I feel it is my duty to do my part to make sure that French remains the most important language here. Agree or disagree?”

One does not have to be an expert in the methodology of social science to understand the term "loaded question," and I can now continue to believe that my granddaughter's enrolment in a partial french immersion class will be a positive experience, as was her mother's."

To have any chance of appearing, the letter has to be reduced to an impossible brevity at this point, but I hope that it would bring understanding to a now confused Globe readership.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

Okay, thanks for the links and updates, guys! Smile

Unionist

Brilliant, Gaian! I hope they publish it! Thanks.

Unionist

By the way, Boom Boom and Gaian, the wording of the "loaded question" can be found on [url=http://www2.lactualite.com/jean-francois-lisee/files/sondage-anglo-crop-... 27 of the poll results[/url] which I linked to above.

 

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

This is what I was looking for - maybe it was linked to above. Montreal's language war gets personal

Gaian

Gaian wrote:

Yes, here's my letter this morning:

The Editor:

"Some people who really know "what's going on in Quebec" (ongoing letters, April 3 and 4) say that the question posed to those bilingual anglophones was worded in this fashion: “As a citizen of Quebec, I feel it is my duty to do my part to make sure that French remains the most important language here. Agree or disagree?”

One does not have to be an expert in the methodology of social science to understand the term "loaded question," and I can now continue to believe that my granddaughter's enrolment in a partial french immersion class will be a positive experience, as was her mother's."

To have any chance of appearing, the letter has to be reduced to an impossible brevity at this point, but I hope that it would bring understanding to a now confused Globe readership.

The letter was not published, this morning, as was to be expected, really. It means that many thousands of Globe and Mail readers, comprising the whole range of workers, wage and salaried, assembly line and professionals, right across Canada, will remain confused, having been misled.

flight from kamakura

i'm so sick of this discussion.  what's happening is actually radicalizing people in the anglo communities and making them irrational, which then feeds into the paranoia of some language warrior types.  it's weird, if you grew up in snowdon or ndg, you're less likely to speak french than if you grew up in the west island, people are getting deranged and anglo resentment and victim complex is idiotic, considering almost 100% of francophone parents would make mcgill their top pick school for their children and 0% of anglo parents would choose uqam.  there's a difference between persecution and resentment at loss of privilege.

cco

Just in time for Christmas, the angryphone brigade returns to protest there isn't enough English at the Fairview and threaten a boycott.

At least these protesters are a little more straightforward about it than the curious case of Anne-Marie Legault, who, if the article is to be believed, went to the Target at Alexis-Nihon, used the self-checkout machine, rang up all her items, then spontaneously decided at the end that she'd rather shop elsewhere because the machine didn't offer English. Then, after making a stink with the attendant and the corporate office, she called the CBC.

The article stresses twice that she's "perfectly bilingual", and she does have a French name, though that doesn't mean anything here (look at Lawrence Cannon). I'll take her at her word on being bilingual, in which case this is an even sillier windmill to tilt at. You don't suppose she went there looking for an "infringement of anglo rights", do you?

Paladin1

Are stores legally required to have bilingual machines?

Unionist

cco wrote:

The article stresses twice that she's "perfectly bilingual", and she does have a French name, though that doesn't mean anything here (look at Lawrence Cannon). I'll take her at her word on being bilingual, in which case this is an even sillier windmill to tilt at. You don't suppose she went there looking for an "infringement of anglo rights", do you?

I think she's a perfectly innocent member of the consuming public. She didn't go there looking for trouble. But at the end, when she realized the software was French only, she suffered a severe trauma whose extent we can hardly begin to imagine. She may be permanently damaged. Who knows whether she'll even survive. This is bad. Really really really really bad.

What is required here is not ridicule, but compassion. Assistance. Accommodation. And as much fucking media play as possible.

Coming next: Cue up the other crowd who says: "See? This is why we need the Values Charter."

When you suffer from xenophobia, colonial righteousness, disrespect of fellow human beings... logic doesn't really enter into the equation.

 

swallow

If it did, perhaps someone would point out that most debit payment systems, in most of Quebec, are english-only. Or that the Quebec government offers to send all documents in english on request, which is certainly not the case in reverse elsewhere.

And so on. 

quizzical

swallow wrote:
If it did, perhaps someone would point out that most debit payment systems, in most of Quebec, are english-only. Or that the Quebec government offers to send all documents in english on request, which is certainly not the case in reverse elsewhere.

And so on. 

beg to differ. it certainly is the case here in BC. you can get any documents from the gov in french if you want.

and all bank machines here and in AB i've been to are both french and english up to user to choose which. so why would they be english only in QC? i've a hard time believing banks would get only english machines for QC.

DaveW

the issue I think are the self-charging machines, which like the Visa/other card hand machines you get at a retailer or restaurant to pay, display all info only in English, as in "Please wait... Payment accepted ... Remove card", all that stuff not bilingual that I see here in Montreal

Bacchus

Odd that I see bilingual here in Toronto with those

Although not every machine but a fair number

 

quizzical

debit machines and atm's here ask you to choose what language or they say oui/yes non/no and all other info is in both languages too.

our 1 actual bank machine also let's you choose between several different languages at the opening screen.

DaveW

again, not ATMs, but those handheld Visa/MC payment terminals and express cashierless places;

surprisingly, even in supermarkets when I put the card in, pay and pull out the card every command is only English...

quizzical

huh...not here. bilingual screens are everywhere and even the wireless hand held ones in restaurants.

Bacchus

And in Toronto I see French in the hand held devices for debit/credit as well