PQ MNAs Quit

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Caissa
PQ MNAs Quit

Three Parti Québécois members of the national assembly are leaving Quebec's sovereigntist party, largely because of a controversial bill to protect the provincial capital and its management deal on the city's new hockey arena.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2011/06/06/quebec-pq-member...

Stockholm

Good...the more the PQ splits and meltsdown the better. Now that the BQ has been annhilated - we are just waiting for the other shoe to drop!

Unionist

The three very-high profile MNAs who quit the PQ caucus are closer to the left, hardline sovereignist, and "we don't mind pissing off the Anglos" wing reflected by Parizeau (one of them in fact is his spouse). When Pauline Marois got her 93% approval rating in April, no one thought it was more than paper-thin. The question is whether the left (*** waving at QS ***) will be able to benefit from this split, and how deep it will go. Anyone (*** waving at Stockholm ***) who thinks this means "sovereignty is in trouble" will be in for a rude surprise. It's time for the neo-liberal right-wing leadership of the PQ to be dumped and see whether anything can be salvaged.

Stockholm

I think that in the short-term "sovereignty is in trouble" because this will be a setback to the PQs hopes of winning the next provincial election. One (of many) pre-conditions for sovereignty in Quebec is for there to be a PQ government that somehow finds a way to create "winning conditions" for a referendum (mostly by trying to be as obstructionist and provocative as possible and throwing mud at the wall and seeing what sticks). If the PQ cannot even get into power - we don't even get to step one.

In the long run, I hope that Quebec develops a more "normal" provincial political system with parties on the left and right that actually differe on real issues and that parties like the PQ and the PLQ that are definied 100% by the national question and that otherwise believe in NOTHINg will atrophy and die.

Unionist

The hockey arena was only the final straw. [url=Rue">http://ruefrontenac.com/nouvelles-generales/politiqueprovinciale/38146-d... Frontenac[/url] provides some more insight:

Quote:
... The three MNAs called into question the whole style of politicking in Québec and within the PQ.

Partisanship, the party line, and the bellicose tone which flow from that have generated cynicism against the political class, they say. [...]

They said the party is far from what people are saying and thinking (and related that to the phenomenon which hit the Bloc). They gave the movement against shale gas as an example (a movement in which QS has played a leadership role).

Quote:
"I don't wish for Pauline Marois to leave - I'm looking for the transformation of the party", said Louise Beaudoin.

Pierre Curzi would like the role of leader to be transformed and become more collegial [shades of QS!].

They don't intend to join up with Québec solidaire and Amir Khadir, who opposed the bill which sanctioned the agreement between Québec City and Quebecor for the management of the Colisée.

But they didn't rule anything out - including returning to the PQ.

ETA:

Stockholm wrote:

... parties like the PQ and the PLQ that are definied 100% by the national question and that otherwise believe in NOTHINg ...

Stockholm, I generally respect your views, even when you're trying to be provocative. But do you actually seriously believe what you just said? If that were even a tiny bit true, every provincial election campaign would be consumed by "stay or leave" - yet that hasn't been the case for decades, if ever. The PQ and PLQ are both (or have evolved into) neo-liberal parties, who believe in defending the interests of the priviliged classes of Québec - and both are as "nationalist" as required in order to serve those interests.

 

Stockholm

 

Quote:
... The three MNAs called into question the whole style of politicking in Québec and within the PQ.

Partisanship, the party line, and the bellicose tone which flow from that have generated cynicism against the political class, they say. [...]

That's pretty rich coming from those three. Louise Beaudoin and Lisette Lapointe (can't speak for Curzi) are easily two of the most viciously partisan and personally unpleasant people in Quebec politics. They have also been around for a million years and totally symbolize the "old guard".

Unionist

Hey Stock - I agree with you! Smile

In fact, I think Beaudoin realizes it. She gave an English interview saying she was fully part of the partisan crap for years - and now she wants to change. She also said it in the Rue Frontenac piece I quoted above:

Quote:
« J'ai adhéré pendant longtemps à la méthode traditionnelle (de faire de la politique), a indiqué Louise Beaudoin. Il faut changer la politique, la transformer. Je choisis de le faire de l'extérieur », a-t-elle précisé.

I think the "Orange Spring" is going to have a lot of unexpected and unpredictable impacts. Let's hope we can harness them for progress rather than (say) a resurgence of the extreme right.

 

Caissa

Maybe they will join QS, in the fullness of time.

Stockholm

I doubt that very much. QS is nominally sovereignist but puts a much bigger emphasis on economic issues and social justice. People like Beaudoin and Lapointe have never shown any interest at all in those issues - all they care about is Quebec independence.

St. Paul's Prog...

Stockholm wrote:
In the long run, I hope that Quebec develops a more "normal" provincial political system with parties on the left and right that actually differe on real issues and that parties like the PQ and the PLQ that are definied 100% by the national question and that otherwise believe in NOTHINg will atrophy and die.

I agree.  Thanks to the lead of Quebec, we're closer to having a left-right polarization in federal politics.  Maybe the same can happen in Quebec (and Ontario too).

lagatta

The only one of those three who could possibly join QS is Pierre Curzi, who has a more progressive, trade-unionist background. But he is very hardline on language issues, which seems rather different from the QS approach, although of course we also support the defence of the French language.

It is a most interesting development though. The law making it impossible to challenge the huge gift to the vile scabherding shite PK Péladeau is deeply shameful and an attack on democracy.

I don't think sovereignty is in trouble at all. The PQ has no monopoly on the sovereignist cause.

Fidel

I think Milosevic and Izetbegovic were both separatists in the former Yugoslavia.  And they imbibed merrily from the neoliberal well of ideology, too. It seems everyone and their dog wants their own country these days.

Be careful, Quebecers. Stick with the NDP, and we just may have a country worth living in before very long. 

Lefauve

i agree with you for the most part lagatta

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

Fidel wrote:
Be careful, Quebecers. Stick with the NDP, and we just may have a country worth living in before very long. 

I'm okay with that, but I wish Layton would get a clue.

DaveW

I have been in Quebec City the last few days, and Amir Khadir is cutting quite the figure -- shouting down ex PM Lucien Bouchard for an obvious conflict of interest as a lobbyist, and forcing the Quebec-Peladeau arena agreement out into the open...

-- very good show!

btw, is the Quebec hockey team politically charged, or what??

there are serious analyses of the 1995 referendum that contend that -- had Parizeau just dug a bit deeper and funded the Quebec City arena --, he would have snuck through with city pro Nordiques votes to a OUI victory... now in 2011 the PQ splintering with the most obnoxious members , including the skunky Louise Beaudoin, heading for the exits...

excellent work! go Nordiques!

Lefauve

Remember that the sovreignist movement is the only one thing that keep Harper from going to far is the sovreignist movement is too scatter Harper will be more bold in his next political move!

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

I wonder - should Marois resign, and perhaps Duceppe might be enticed to run for her position?

Lefauve

Boom Boom wrote:

I wonder - should Marois resign, and perhaps Duceppe might be enticed to run for her position?

I doute it, Ducepte took a great hit in the last federal election.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

Yes, I know that - but he might want redemption (revenge) and sympathy. I actually haven't heard any news about him since the election.

Lefauve

the most probable is the visir who want to be the calif replacing the calif will show there nose!

Question is who the visir now?

Stockholm

Boom Boom wrote:

I wonder - should Marois resign, and perhaps Duceppe might be enticed to run for her position?

Sure replace Marois with someone who is now regarded as a TOTAL failure. What on earth would that accomplish for them.

Anonymouse

Stockholm wrote:

Boom Boom wrote:

I wonder - should Marois resign, and perhaps Duceppe might be enticed to run for her position?

Sure replace Marois with someone who is now regarded as a TOTAL failure. What on earth would that accomplish for them.

Duceppe and Charest could have a grump-off, the winner gets the role of Séraphin in the next TV series.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

He's a prime candidate for a major comeback, if he chooses to run again.

Anonymouse

I think André Boisclair deserves a second chance ;)

David Young

With a new political party on the right of the spectrum (goodbye ADQ?) and the QS getting more positive press because of Amir Khadir's performance, given the federal results in Quebec, are we looking at the start of big changes in Quebec provincial politcal landscape?

 

Stockholm

I think it would be a wonderful thing if Quebec polarized into a right/left political system with Quebec Solidaire (perhaps even rebranded as a provincial NDP and dropping sovereignty) on the left and some new rightwing formation under Legault (isn't it interesting that the PQ is supposedly social democratic and yet there is this parade of ex-Pequistes wanting to join/lead a new rightwing party?). The Quebec Liberals can them morph into being nothing but an anglo rights part that only runs candidates in a dozen ridings.

DaveW

you massively underestimate the Quebec Liberal Party, in 2 of your posts above;

it is NOT a party ""based on the national question"" alone, it existed in the Duplessis era, and surged under Lesage as a modernizing force, and Bourassa certainly saw it first and foremost as that in the 1970s, although he was lapped on the Left by the PQ,

a party which today, like the Bloc , could/should collapse under the weight of its relentless single focus (and bad leadership -- P.Marois, yecch)

but in that case, the centre-Right Liberal Party niche would remain secure as a mainstream party; no earthquake coming in that regard...

Stockholm

The Quebec Liberal party has a "glorious" past - much like the federal Liberals. But now they are a nothing party with no values, no policies NOTHING. All they have is "vote for us or else you'll get the 'separatists' (sic.)". If a new mainstream centre-right party gets going under Legault - why on earth would anyone support the Quebec Liberals unless they were a diehard anglophone?

Caissa

The turmoil within the Parti Québécois has deepened, with a fourth party member resigning.

A teary Jean-Martin Aussant, the PQ member of the national assembly for Nicolet-Yamaska, told reporters Tuesday he entered politics to change the way things are done but he's disappointed with the leadership of his party and the lack of a clear path to achieve sovereignty.

The MNA, who was first elected in 2008, said he doesn't believe PQ Leader Pauline Marois is the right person to lead Quebec to sovereignty.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2011/06/07/quebec-pq-turmoi...

Stockholm

I think I'll get a bag of popcorn to munch on while watching the PQ implode.

ghoris

Shades of the Carole James imbroglio in BC last year. According to the linked story above Marois has called an emergency caucus meeting for this morning.

Like the Carole James situation, the most interesting thing about this apparent leadership challenge (in my view) is the lack of any obvious successors waiting in the wings.

DaveW

Stockholm wrote:

The Quebec Liberal party has a "glorious" past - much like the federal Liberals. But now they are a nothing party with no values, no policies NOTHING. All they have is "vote for us or else you'll get the 'separatists' (sic.)". If a new mainstream centre-right party gets going under Legault - why on earth would anyone support the Quebec Liberals unless they were a diehard anglophone?

you are arguing with yourself and with like-minded people, and not with the broader Quebec electorate which has maintained the PLQ as a player over the last 5 decades, indeed as THE player, in Quebec electoral politics

in 2011 if there is a wholesale refiguring of the provincial electoral map, one thing is certain: the PLQ will be a/the main player... the suburban/business/mainstream conservative vote is theirs alone

in the meantime, it is hilarious to watch Pauline Marois squirm; I liked Rene Levesque and much of his Cabinet (esp. Gerald Godin and, get ready, Camille Laurin), but the trend has been down down downward since then, with ever-greater dogmatic drum-beaters as chiefs; she is the worst of them, even worse than B.Landry -- and that is saying something

 

Stockholm

Right now support for the Quebec Liberal Party is literally in the teens - meaning that they have almost no support at all among francophones.

No party can take its own existence for granted. The Union Nationale rules Quebec with an iron fist for a generation. it went from being the government of Quebec in April of 1970 to having ZERO seats in October 1973 and never recovered!

the "suburban/business/mainstream conservative" vote would happily shift its votes to a new right of centre formation that doesn't have all the corruption and baggage that the PLQ has.

ghoris

I kind of liked Paul Wells' summation of the current state of Quebec politics while discussing the rise of Layton on the federal level: "Jean Charest is running a trainwreck of a government, and the alternative is Pauline Marois, who is ridiculous."

KenS

DaveW wrote:

I have been in Quebec City the last few days, and Amir Khadir is cutting quite the figure -- shouting down ex PM Lucien Bouchard for an obvious conflict of interest as a lobbyist,

Was that an exchange in some public forum, and about shale gas fracking [for which Bouchard lobbies.]

If so, have a link?

bekayne

KenS wrote:

DaveW wrote:

I have been in Quebec City the last few days, and Amir Khadir is cutting quite the figure -- shouting down ex PM Lucien Bouchard for an obvious conflict of interest as a lobbyist,

Was that an exchange in some public forum, and about shale gas fracking [for which Bouchard lobbies.]

If so, have a link?

Right here

http://www.assnat.qc.ca/fr/video-audio/AudioVideo-36451.html

Aristotleded24

DaveW wrote:
in the meantime, it is hilarious to watch Pauline Marois squirm; I liked Rene Levesque and much of his Cabinet (esp. Gerald Godin and, get ready, Camille Laurin), but the trend has been down down downward since then, with ever-greater dogmatic drum-beaters as chiefs; she is the worst of them, even worse than B.Landry -- and that is saying something

Sovereignty seems to have fizzled as a ballot box issue since 2003. I remember Landry wasn't doing too badly, and then Parizeau reminded Quebec that Landry was a hard-core sovereigntist and the PQ lost government. Boisclair was supposed to lead the PQ to the promised land and beat the sovereignty drum loudly but led the party to a glorious 3rd place finish. Marois seems to forget that her most recent successful election was from being more focused on everyday issues than sovereignty. The only thing Charest has going for him is that voters know he won't start the referendum process, otherwise he would have probably been defeated a long time ago. I think that's why voters are looking at QS, because QS is focused primarily on the issues.

You're also correct about Levesque. There were those in the PQ who wanted to go a great deal farther with sovereignty than he did. And disagree with him on the constitutional arrangement, but he was quite well respected inside and outside of Quebec.

ghoris

Going back even further than 2003, even Lévesque never made sovereignty the centrepiece of either of the winning campaigns he ran.

1976: Vote for the PQ for good government.

1981: Vote for the PQ to take the 'beau risque' of federalism.

One of our Québécois babblers can correct me, but it seems to me there was not a ton of difference between the "maîtres chez nous" federalism of Jean Lesage and the PQ of René Lévesque.

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Marois seems to forget that her most recent successful election was from being more focused on everyday issues than sovereignty. The only thing Charest has going for him is that voters know he won't start the referendum process, otherwise he would have probably been defeated a long time ago. I think that's why voters are looking at QS, because QS is focused primarily on the issues.

Similarly, on the right side of the spectrum, voters are giving Legault's "Not-Yet-A-Party" option a close look, as a party that is 'ambivalent' on the national question but focused on a particular economic and social 'vision' for the province.

DaveW

KenS wrote:

DaveW wrote:

I have been in Quebec City the last few days, and Amir Khadir is cutting quite the figure -- shouting down ex PM Lucien Bouchard for an obvious conflict of interest as a lobbyist,

Was that an exchange in some public forum, and about shale gas fracking [for which Bouchard lobbies.]

If so, have a link?

the context was a National Assembly  committee on natural resources and the parliamentary decision to remove some St Lawrence islands and aquatic territory from oil-gas exploration;

Bouchard was speaking as president of the oil-gas lobby (no name), and wanted compensation for the withdrawal of exploration rights after some private investment;

Amir Khadir tore into him, pointing out that his Govt (I did not recall) had dissolved/neutered SOQUIP, the Quebec oil-gas exploration body, so he looked like a flagrant hypocrite and worse;

the Le Devoir columnist (Friday 3 June, see link below) took a fairly even-handed but skeptical approach, then at the end breathed deep and said: Khadir is completely and totally right, and for an ex-PREMIER to be in such a vile lobbying posture is truly unseemly, even in this era of everything-goes ...

DaveW

here it is:

http://www.ledevoir.com/politique/quebec/324597/tartuffe

 

 

 L'ancien premier ministre a toujours eu une certaine inclination au pathos. Mardi, il a fait le récit héroïque de «l'épopée personnelle» du président-fondateur et chef de la direction de Junex, Jean-Yves Lavoie, un jeune ingénieur qui a «hypothéqué ses biens» quand il a vu que la Société québécoise d'initiatives pétrolières (SOQUIP) «laissait aller les permis». «Une sorte de croisé», a dit M. Bouchard.

Là encore, il fallait du culot, quand on sait que M. Bouchard est le grand responsable de la liquidation de la SOQUIP, avec la complicité de son ami André Caillé, qui est aujourd'hui - ô surprise - un des principaux actionnaires de Junex.

Les intérêts supérieurs du Québec, dont se soucie tellement M. Bouchard, ont-ils été si bien servis par la mise à mort de cette société créée en 1969 pour permettre aux Québécois de se réapproprier les richesses de leur sous-sol? Tout bien considéré, M. Khadir y est allé avec beaucoup de modération.

 

lil.Tommy
Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

A Quebec commentator on CBC said this two days ago: "trying to run or govern the PQ is like trying to herd cats".

DaveW

btw, who is this 4th MNA to defect, J-L Aussant? never heard of him, and Globe feature today gives no details ...

Caissa

The turmoil within the Parti Québécois deepened Tuesday, including harsh criticism levelled at leader Pauline Marois, as a fourth member of her caucus stepped down from the party.

Marois is under fire for supporting Bill 204, which would shield a deal between Quebecor Media and the City of Quebec over the management of a proposed hockey arena from any future lawsuits.

Marois approved the private member's bill - sponsored by PQ member Agnès Maltais - without consulting her caucus.

On Tuesday, she admitted having "made an error right from the start."

"In four years, it's the first time I did not consult them," Marois said in French after a special caucus meeting Tuesday morning, adding she is surprised at how quickly the arena bill issue escalated among her members.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2011/06/07/quebec-pq-turmoi...

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

A CBC commentator on P&P last night said the PQ under another leader - possibly Duceppe - wil have a hardline stance towards sovereignty.

Stockholm

The more the PQ takes a hardline stance on sovereignty - the more likely they are to get annhilated in the next election. There is at most about 25% of Quebecers who will vote for a party that is explicitly in favour of pushing for sovcereignty at the earliest possible time and of having more referenda etc...Bring it on!!

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

Stockholm wrote:

The more the PQ takes a hardline stance on sovereignty - the more likely they are to get annhilated in the next election. There is at most about 25% of Quebecers who will vote for a party that is explicitly in favour of pushing for sovcereignty at the earliest possible time and of having more referenda etc...Bring it on!!

That same CBC commentator said 40% of Quebec will vote for the PQ  solely on the basis of sovereignty - and other people will vote for the PQ because they hate Charest and the Liberals.

Stockholm

People said that the BQ could NEVER get less than 40% in an election because that was the percent of people who are sovereignists - yet they got crushed and got 23% (and still falling). I also see polls that show that something like 85% of Quebecers are totally against having another referendum. So, I really hope that Marois resigns and the PQ makes Parizeau's wife their new leader and that they run a single issue campaign that they will stand for nothing more or less than total separation of Quebec from canada and that they have no other policies. Then I will eat popcorn on election night as the PQ follows the BQ into the graveyard and loses official party status.

Its a pity. If the PQ just saw the writing on the wall and shut up about more referendums and about wanting to purposely provoke a national unity crisis - and instead concentrated on being an NDP-like social democratic party promsiing good government - they would probably have a good shot at winning the next election.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

The PQ would do better by ignoring your nonsensical rants.

Stockholm

Call it nonsensical if you want - it seems to be pretty clear that every time the PQ talks about sovereignty - they support crashes and burns.

DaveW

Stockholm wrote:

...  every time the PQ talks about sovereignty - they support crashes and burns.

that was my view until roughly 10.15 pm on the night of the referendum in 1995 ....

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