Quebec Election October 1, 2018

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pietro_bcc

lagatta4 wrote:

Actually, there has often - perhaps even usually - been a debate in English.

Not true, the only other English electoral debate in Quebec was in 1985 between Robert Bourassa and Pierre-Marc Johnson and it was only broadcast on CJAD and never televised. This is the second ever english debate and the first ever to be on TV. Ironically we have Jean-François Lisée to thank for this debate, he was the first person to suggest it and the other leaders agreed.

lagatta4

It really strikes me that there were others. I suppose they were not official debates.

NorthReport

Right-to-disconnect talk picks up as popularity of workplace messaging apps rises

Quebec Solidaire's Gabriel Nadeau-Dubois also tabled a private member's bill in the Quebec national assembly last week that aims to "ensure that employee rest periods are respected by requiring employers to adopt an after-hours disconnection policy." The proposal calls for fines between $1,000 to $30,000 for companies that refuse to draft a proper policy, or reassess it annually to ensure it remains up to date and effective.

 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/right-to-disconnect-talk-picks-up-as-pop...

pietro_bcc

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/quebec-solidaire-promises-pu...

I've been waiting for a party to finally acknowledge how bad out telecommunications system is in Quebec. Good on QS, a good policy plank here.

lagatta4

And the digital deserts include places much closer to major centres than say, Kuujjuaq or Kegaska. Few people here know that we are actually paying much more than people in many other countries do, for substandard service. This is a major barrier to the economic and social development of many regions and creating viable employment there.

It  is very interesting to see the issues that are coming to the fore in this campaign. One thing QS has succeeded in doing is to get the larger, establishment parties to address issues they were utterly silent on, including the stealth privatisation of healthcare via superclinics while gutting the existing network of CLSCs, where doctors are salaried professionals and an emphasis is placed on other health professionals as well, such as the s0-called "super-nurses".

Aristotleded24

Ken Burch wrote:
I agree that QS has yoked itself too much to sovereignty.  It should probably focus more on fighting a libertarian-socialist Quebec within which francophone culture is preserved,with constitutional arrangements be damned.  And I think QS would probably have done that if it weren't for all the fussy, sanctimonious federalists who keep treating sovereigntism as a heresy that must be renounced, who keep demanding some sort of official surrender and renunciation on that question rather than just accepting that it's a dead letter for the forseeable future and allowing it to fade back naturally, as it was clearly in the process of doing.   

The NPD-Q has likely made itself irrelevant in this election by making a big point of presenting itself as well to the right of QS, by sounding like a parody of all those right-wing "anticommunist social democrats" that cared more about proving that they weren't "left-wing" then they do about actually presenting an agenda that would help the allophone and "left-federalist" voters they claim to be representing...an agenda which, to be worth anyone supporting, would pretty much need to be "QS minus sovereigntism".  This isn't the 1950s, and nobody is going to be impressed by a "left-federalist" party which focuses more on "respectability" than on standing for anything.

I remember when the NDP started setting up a provincial branch in Quebec that idea was met with some hostility in these forums. I felt at the time that it was the right move to attract left-wing voters who were not necessarily hard core sovereigntists, but that ultimately the NDP could do what it wanted and it was up to voters to decide. Well, here we are, and QS still has noteable support (even if relatively small) and the NDP is dead in the water. So even with the NDP on the scene, QS is still meeting a need in the Quebec electorate.

lagatta4

Outside this forum, I know several non-sovereignists who are voting QS. I know at least as many sovereignists who vote NDP, especially for Boulerice and especially after the horrific ad the Bloc produced comparing a niqabi woman to an oil well or tar sands. I run into Gilles Duceppe from time to time (he lives in Rosemont, the riding just east of mine) but haven't bothered raising it with him - remember I met Gilles when we were both working at the CSN and he focused on organising heavily-immigrant sectors such as hospitals and hotel-restaurant.

The only people I meet who say they won't vote QS because it is "separatist" are obviously rather rightwing sorts who wouldn't vote for us in any case and who find some other reason not to vote for the NDP. They usually also mention Manon's moustache and some even claim that the ferociously secular Amir Khadir is a covert Islamist.

It is more interesting to look at the issues that have come to the fore, and how the other parties have had to modify their election promises.

josh

Mainstreet is apparently running a tracking poll that's behind a pay wall. 

Wow, @QuebecSolidaire has crossed the 16% bar at @MainStResearch. Can you get a poll from another firm to confirm this please trend? Because it's getting a little crazy

https://twitter.com/2closetocall/status/1037385135660785664

NorthReport

Sounds promising for QS although Mainstreet can be erratic just like Forum is

Leger is quite a right wing pollster although their track record is not the worst

Let’s see what CROP, the gold standard for Quebec polling, has to say.

 

lagatta4

Here is a very interesting (and profound) commentary by Aurélie Lanctôt about CAQ leader Legault's utter disregard for environmental issues: https://www.ledevoir.com/opinion/chroniques/536214/crier-au-fond-d-un-puits

And today on Radio-Canada he doubled down on his "identitaire" focus, including referring to immigrants and potential immigrants as "ces gens-là" (those people)...

As for Québec solidaire, Mayor Plante has praised their mobility plan. Not really a surprise in terms of the plan, but in terms of the degree of legitimacy QS seems to have achieved - remember that does not always translate into votes, but they are seen more and more as a legitimate voice. I remember that happening in terms of the PQ long ago (yes, I was VERY young)...

lagatta4

Daybreak Montreal CBC's host one-on-0ne with Gabriel-Nadeau Dubois of Québec solidaire:

https://www.cbc.ca/listen/shows/daybreak-montreal/segment/15592572

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..txs lagatta. the statis quo must be feeling uncomfortable. 

lagatta4

Meanwhile, Legault is doing a full-on Maxime Bernier! Very ugly. 

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

lagatta4 wrote:

Meanwhile, Legault is doing a full-on Maxime Bernier! Very ugly. 

I hope that destroys his lead.

Unionist

Surprisingly decent portrait of Manon Massé in the Montreal Gazette, of all places:

Straight talk is her mantra. And Québec solidaire is banking on that this election campaign.

 

lagatta4

Thanks. Unionist. Michelle Lalonde is actually fairly progressive and environmentalist. I was unable to post that for some reason. It becomes more an more difficult to sneak in behind their subscription wall ... as their readership falls.

I'm sending this to friends in London and NYC. 

By the way, do those mocking men have any idea how many of us women, especially dark-haired women, remove or hide our moustaches in various ways? I've done so since puberty, first to conform in the horrid teenage years - fine to be a hippie who challenged dress codes, but facial hair reminds not only boys but also girls how prevalent it is! Then for employment, and soon officially a "senior", not to be thought demented!

Lisée also contrasted Massé with Véronique Hivon in his boy's club/tavern comments, if I recall in terms of the moustache!

There is no question that Véronique Hivon is a more "feminine" type person, though she is not at all a painted doll or a reality show creature - she is one of my favourite people in the current PQ, and one of the most respected. But the killer is that Hivon has very dark hair and eyebrows, and very few of us of that complexion are exempt from the dread visible facial hair. 

josh

New data from Mainstreet/GCM: 32% CAQ (unchanged since Aug. 20), 27% LIB (+2), 21% PQ (+3), 16% QS (+2)

josh

New data from Léger/Le Devoir-Montreal Gazette (Sept 7-10): 35% CAQ (-2 since Aug. 29), 29% LIB (-3), 21% PQ (+2), 11% QS (+3), 4% OTH

pietro_bcc

I watched the debate and at least for me it was clear that Massé and Couillard won. Lisée and Legault came off as desperate and Legault in particular was exposed on just not being a serious person, he's a clown. His policies are vague and crumble under the lightest amount of scrutiny, he's going to choke and lose in the end.

http://policymagazine.ca/the-quebec-election-a-primer/

I disagree with most of this article because of its fawning love for the Liberals, but one part caught my attention when I heard about it at work.

Despite his business background, there has always been a harsh nationalist streak to Legault’s politics. At his very first political speech, when he was nominated as a star PQ candidate in 1998, he told his riding association members that he had been raised in Montreal’s West Island among the English, “and I hate them as much as you do.”

Now I assume there is video of this somewhere in some archive and I don't doubt it for a second, I'm sure the Liberals would dig it up if there were any danger of Legault getting any support among anglos. What makes this particularly egregious is that when he was trying to court anglos he was saying "hey I grew up in Saint Anne de Bellevue, I may not be anglo but I know your concerns and I'm one of you" man the nerve of this guy.

 

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

pietro_bcc wrote:

I watched the debate and at least for me it was clear that Massé and Couillard won. Lisée and Legault came off as desperate and Legault in particular was exposed on just not being a serious person, he's a clown. His policies are vague and crumble under the lightest amount of scrutiny, he's going to choke and lose in the end.

http://policymagazine.ca/the-quebec-election-a-primer/

I disagree with most of this article because of its fawning love for the Liberals, but one part caught my attention when I heard about it at work.

Despite his business background, there has always been a harsh nationalist streak to Legault’s politics. At his very first political speech, when he was nominated as a star PQ candidate in 1998, he told his riding association members that he had been raised in Montreal’s West Island among the English, “and I hate them as much as you do.”

Now I assume there is video of this somewhere in some archive and I don't doubt it for a second, I'm sure the Liberals would dig it up if there were any danger of Legault getting any support among anglos. What makes this particularly egregious is that when he was trying to court anglos he was saying "hey I grew up in Saint Anne de Bellevue, I may not be anglo but I know your concerns and I'm one of you" man the nerve of this guy.

 

As I have been parroting for not just the last year but years before,Legault is a shameless liar and desperate exclusively to become King of Quebec. Ever since he lost the PQ leadership to Pauline Marois.All of a sudden he's a federalist.He'll say anything to get himself ahead in his bloodlust for power.He's a charlatan and he makes Bozo look like a statesman. And he makes the PLQ look competent and desirable.

As for QS I wouldn't be too surprised if they leap frogged over the PQ or at least tied them in votes. I mean the PQ's campaign sign is Sérieusement. And if you look at Lisée's lame platform you do end up asking, Seriously? The PQ are finished.

lagatta4

Cycling around, I saw a PQ sérieusement placard about something like taking care of nos aînés. Il be officially une aînée in a bit, but that won't automatically transform me into a demented crone. I know people far older that have all their marbles and are very fit. And sadly, younger people suffering from dementia and other ills of old age. I did a stage at Centro Dante and there was a middle-aged man (a highly skilled trades worker) who still had teenagers at home, and he was in their programme for people with some degree of dementia. Yes, we all age, but at different rates. I just want the right to end it all if I am in the same state as that poor man.

He was a very handsome man, very dignified and one didn't realise his sad condition until realising that he repeated everything and was terribly lost, and aware of that.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

alan smithee wrote:

pietro_bcc wrote:

I watched the debate and at least for me it was clear that Massé and Couillard won. Lisée and Legault came off as desperate and Legault in particular was exposed on just not being a serious person, he's a clown. His policies are vague and crumble under the lightest amount of scrutiny, he's going to choke and lose in the end.

http://policymagazine.ca/the-quebec-election-a-primer/

I disagree with most of this article because of its fawning love for the Liberals, but one part caught my attention when I heard about it at work.

Despite his business background, there has always been a harsh nationalist streak to Legault’s politics. At his very first political speech, when he was nominated as a star PQ candidate in 1998, he told his riding association members that he had been raised in Montreal’s West Island among the English, “and I hate them as much as you do.”

Now I assume there is video of this somewhere in some archive and I don't doubt it for a second, I'm sure the Liberals would dig it up if there were any danger of Legault getting any support among anglos. What makes this particularly egregious is that when he was trying to court anglos he was saying "hey I grew up in Saint Anne de Bellevue, I may not be anglo but I know your concerns and I'm one of you" man the nerve of this guy.

 

As I have been parroting for not just the last year but years before,Legault is a shameless liar and desperate exclusively to become King of Quebec. Ever since he lost the PQ leadership to Pauline Marois.All of a sudden he's a federalist.He'll say anything to get himself ahead in his bloodlust for power.He's a charlatan and he makes Bozo look like a statesman. And he makes the PLQ look competent and desirable.

As for QS I wouldn't be too surprised if they leap frogged over the PQ or at least tied them in votes. I mean the PQ's campaign sign is Sérieusement. And if you look at Lisée's lame platform you do end up asking, Seriously? The PQ are finished.

Their slogan is "Sérieusement"?  They should have changed their name to "Le Parti Seinfeldois".

lagatta4

That would be funny... One of their signs near me (corner Jean-Talon and St-Laurent) was Sérieusement, de la dignité pour nos personnes âgées. A) wouldn't a concrete promise be better? and B) why "nos" personnes âgées, unless they are talking about their own parents or other older relatives? Elderly people don't belong to others... if they are autonomous, they have their own lives, just as middle-aged or young people do.

voice of the damned

B) why "nos" personnes âgées, unless they are talking about their own parents or other older relatives? Elderly people don't belong to others... if they are autonomous, they have their own lives, just as middle-aged or young people do.

Just speculation, but maybe that kind of phrasing is more appealing to elderly people themselves? When I think of rhetoric like "We need to protect our women...", I imagine someone born before 1940 as being the kind of person who would swoon over it.

True, some older people might find the terminology paternalistic or condescencing, but for a lot of others, I wonder if it might conjur up feelings of protectiveness. Especially if they grew up hearing phrases like the aformentioned "our women", without being inclined to analyze the politics behind it.

lagatta4

I'm not young by any means, and I think it is disgusting. Not all people over 50, 60 or whatever are senile and incapable.

voice of the damned

Well, to clarify, I don't believe that all elderly people would like the phrasing, and if that's how my post sounded, I apologize. I just meant that there are probably enough older people who are positive about it, or at least wouldn't get offended, for the PQ to think it's to their benefit to frame the issue that way.

As for medical issues, if the government were to cut health-care coverage for dementia, I'd predict that opponents would characterize that as an attack on the elderly, without provoking much controversy. Even though, yes, not all older people have it, and there are some young people who get it as well.

bekayne

There have been 2 polls in the last 2 weeks. In this same time period in the Ontario election there were 13 polls conducted.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I saw what was both sad and hilarious today. An NDP poster next to Concordia defaced with the words 'pute oligarche'

It was funny because this person doesn't know what an oligarch is and sad that it was beside a University.

NDP? Oligarchs? Wow.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Apparently CAQ is in damage mode because Legault claimed that it took 3 months to become a Canadian citizen when it actually takes 3 YEARS. Sycophantic CAQ candidates rushed to Legault's defense that he 'Is an expert on immigration'

LOL! It may as well have been Sean Spicer or Sarah Sanders defending yet another gaffe and/or lie from Trump.

And in the words of the orangutan president...SAD!

lagatta4

That is beyond basic as an error.

pietro_bcc

alan smithee wrote:

I saw what was both sad and hilarious today. An NDP poster next to Concordia defaced with the words 'pute oligarche'

It was funny because this person doesn't know what an oligarch is and sad that it was beside a University.

NDP? Oligarchs? Wow.

Yeah, you know who are the real elites controlling Quebec society, the NDPQ. Like I get why some people don't like the party and after some of the decisions the party made I agree with more of those criticisms now, but its pretty stupid.

cco

The other side of the Concordia poster has "Social democracy is left-wing fascism" scrawled on it, in case there was any doubt who defaced it (the same people putting up the "boycott bourgeois elections" posters all over town).

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

These people are who?  Besides the "real" left?

cco
Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Evidently, they're not even a registered party.  Which makes sense, I guess, if they want other simpletons to boycott elections.

Well, it's always nice when nihilists can tell you how to live your best nihilist life.  Is there more "everything" I can reject on principle?

Health care?  Social assistance?  Charter protection?  I want to be just like the vanguard!

The best part of their website:  "About", which, when you click on it, just says "coming".

cco

That's the funniest bit: They only ever show up during elections, to tell us not to vote in them. I've never seen them at a student or labour strike, for example. The rest of the time, they're just sitting around waiting for us electoralist quisling sheeple to wake up and generate the spontaneous revolution.

voice of the damned

cco wrote:
That's the funniest bit: They only ever show up during elections, to tell us not to vote in them. I've never seen them at a student or labour strike, for example. The rest of the time, they're just sitting around waiting for us electoralist quisling sheeple to wake up and generate the spontaneous revolution.

Apparently, they want us to boycott their own publications as well. From Arsenal No. 10...

The Revolutionary Communist Party completely disavows the ninth issue of the Arsenal political journal, published when the Party was still riddled by the opportunists.

I realize that maoist sectarianism is a standing joke, but denouncing one issue of a magazine in the very next issue is taking things to a whole new level.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
That's the funniest bit: They only ever show up during elections, to tell us not to vote in them.

And to ensure that we cannot by not being a registered party that would appear on the ballot.

Quote:
I realize that maoist sectarianism is a standing joke, but denouncing one issue of a magazine in the very next issue is taking things to a whole new level.

When it's Issue #18 versus Issue #17, which magazine does solidarity demand that I stand shoulder-to-shoulder with?

I don't want to score an 'own goal', or be a class traitor, but this is getting confusing now.  Can a "real" leftist clarify??

cco

Those responsible for the publication of the last issue of this magazine have been sacked for their failure to sack those responsible for the publication of the issue before that.

lagatta4

I actually have a friend who belongs to them, or at least supports them. He is a gay punk. He used to be an anarchist, which made more sense.

But I think it is more a general matter of being down on everything and everyone. Other than that, he is a fine person.

Pogo Pogo's picture

cco wrote:
Those responsible for the publication of the last issue of this magazine have been sacked for their failure to sack those responsible for the publication of the issue before that.

Doesn't this sound like the credits of the Holy Grail?

pietro_bcc

English debate was interesting, I wish more of the debate was focused on issues that are specifically related to the anglophone community, but overall I'm satisfied and hope this continues in future elections.

Good moderating, touched on a variety of subjects. And I'm glad that the consensus among anglos seems to be that Legault is a clown who knows nothing about anything. I'd also agree with the general consensus that Lisée won (though I doubt it'll help them get more votes among anglos.) Couillard did well and Massé did as well as she could've hoped given her language limitations (and I personally think she won more votes than Lisée from this debate.) Overall though Couillard should be happy, the party that generally got second among anglos in the polls got absolutely embarrassed and is choking even in french as I thought they would.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Evidently, they're not even a registered party.  Which makes sense, I guess, if they want other simpletons to boycott elections.

Well, it's always nice when nihilists can tell you how to live your best nihilist life.  Is there more "everything" I can reject on principle?

Health care?  Social assistance?  Charter protection?  I want to be just like the vanguard!

The best part of their website:  "About", which, when you click on it, just says "coming".

I ran into the RCP years ago, at the time of the Eighties antinuclear movement.   They'd never show up at any of the planning meetings, never do any thing to help organize events, and then they'd show up at the rallies with their red flags and their newsletters, always making sure to plant their stand as close as possible to wherever the speakers' podium was.

voice of the damned

Pogo wrote:

cco wrote:
Those responsible for the publication of the last issue of this magazine have been sacked for their failure to sack those responsible for the publication of the issue before that.

Doesn't this sound like the credits of the Holy Grail?

The thing about one issue of a left-wing magazine denouncing the previous issue of a left-wing magazine actually put me more in mind of Life Of Brian. You can probably guess the scene.  

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

voice of the damned wrote:

Pogo wrote:

cco wrote:
Those responsible for the publication of the last issue of this magazine have been sacked for their failure to sack those responsible for the publication of the issue before that.

Doesn't this sound like the credits of the Holy Grail?

The thing about one issue of a left-wing magazine denouncing the previous issue of a left-wing magazine actually put me more in mind of Life Of Brian. You can probably guess the scene.  

"It is symbolic of our struggle against oppression!"

"It's symbolic of 'is struggle against reality."

voice of the damned

lagatta4 wrote:

I actually have a friend who belongs to them, or at least supports them. He is a gay punk. He used to be an anarchist, which made more sense.

But I think it is more a general matter of being down on everything and everyone. Other than that, he is a fine person.

According to the link, that group still valourizes the Cultural Revolution. Which I think had some superficial appeal to anti-authoritarians back in the day, before people really understood what was going on there. Not quite the spontaneous uprising of idealistic youth that Mao and the gang made it out to be.

lagatta4

Then there is "World Socialist Web Site", who never took part in the Printemps érable, but were at all the meetings the movement organised, in order to to denounce it as petit-bourgeois and controlled by the sellout trade union confederations (bit contradictory, non?)

Unionist

voice of the damned wrote:

lagatta4 wrote:

B) why "nos" personnes âgées, unless they are talking about their own parents or other older relatives? Elderly people don't belong to others... if they are autonomous, they have their own lives, just as middle-aged or young people do.

Just speculation, but maybe that kind of phrasing is more appealing to elderly people themselves? When I think of rhetoric like "We need to protect our women...", I imagine someone born before 1940 as being the kind of person who would swoon over it.

True, some older people might find the terminology paternalistic or condescencing, but for a lot of others, I wonder if it might conjur up feelings of protectiveness. Especially if they grew up hearing phrases like the aformentioned "our women", without being inclined to analyze the politics behind it.

Just a note about the vernacular. There is really nothing condescending or proprietary or wrong about expressions like "nos personnes âgées" in contexts like these - whether in French, or in English for that matter. Let me give some examples of acceptable discourse (IMHO):

Québec solidaire news release, Aug. 8, 2018: "Quant au secteur de l’éducation, c’est l’absence de nos jeunes – partis étudier ailleurs au Québec ou en Ontario – et le sous-développement de nos institutions qui créent un grand fossé."

Québec solidaire web site, Mar. 11, 2014: "Le croisement de nombreuses sources de pollution dans notre secteur jumelé aux inégalités sociales est particulièrement dangereux pour les personnes les plus vulnérables, nos enfants, nos aînés, les personnes déjà malades."

And from former QS president and spokesperson Andrés Fontecilla: "Mais la population n’est pas dupe et les effets de l’austérité libérale ont déjà fait très mal aux services pour nos enfants, nos personnes âgées, et aux travailleurs et travailleuses moins nanti.e.s."

There's plenty to be outraged about in the neoliberal parties' actions and words without getting upset over nothing.

josh

New data from Mainstreet/Groupe Capitale Medias (Sept. 14-15): 29% CAQ (-3 since Sept. 7), 29% LIB (+1), 22% PQ (=), 17% QS (+1), 4% OTH (=)

pietro_bcc

New Leger poll

CAQ 31% (-4)

Lib 30% (+1)

PQ 21% (=)

QS 14% (+3)

Losing 4 points in 1 week, Legault is circling the drain and I think a minority government is very likely.

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