Quebec polls and parties 2014

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Is the PQ running on empty?

Recent poll shows the party in third place and it’s easy to see why. The Parti Québécois seems to have plenty of dreams for itself, but little for Quebec.

By Chantal Hébert

Fri., May 19, 2017

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/05/19/is-the-pq-running-on-empt...

josh
josh
Debater

Quebec poll: Fed by Gabriel Nadeau-Dubois's charm campaign, QS nipping at PQ's heels

http://montrealgazette.com/news/quebec/quebec-poll-fed-by-gabriel-nadeau...

robbie_dee

I am wondering if this thread title should be updated since it is now the middle of 2017? In any case here is a seat projection based on averaging the latest Leger and Mainstreet polls. Liberal minority with QS achingly close to holding the balance of power.

http://www.tooclosetocall.ca/2017/06/nouveaux-sondages-mainstreet-et-leg...

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..from #505 post

quote:

Bordering on cocky in a recent interview with the Presse Canadienne, Nadeau-Dubois said he is thinking big. He said QS is ready to take power in Quebec and he can see himself premier.

“We are now in the stage of marching toward (forming) government,” Nadeau-Dubois said, predicting his party will be nibbling at the voters of all the other parties.

“From now on, QS will be telling voters we are ready to form the next government. I intend to disturb (the other parties). I didn’t get into politics to sit quietly in my corner.”

Debater

The latest Léger poll shows PQ support is lower than when Pierre Karl Péladeau quit:

Un sondage confirme le déclin du Parti québécois

http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/politique/politique-quebecoise/201706/...

http://www.ledevoir.com/politique/quebec/502025/un-nouveau-sondage-confi...

josh
Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
He said QS is ready to take power in Quebec and he can see himself premier.

Isn't he a "co-spokesperson"?

And according to Wikipedia:

Quote:
The party's secretary-general, currently Pierre-Paul St-Onge, is the de jure party leader recognized by the Chief Electoral Officer of Quebec.

NorthReport

Finally a progressive party is showing serious signs of life in Quebec. How wonderful this is.

Too bad Ontario can't seem to do the same thing 

NorthReport

Now all QS needs to do is find out some way to reach out to the non-francophone progressive voters in Quebec

http://globalnews.ca/news/3613078/quebec-liberal-party-losing-voter-supp...

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I wouldn't celebrate so fast. QS splits the PQ and QS vote. Which means the next election will be a race between PLQ and CAQ. If people are fed up with PLQ,they will most likely turn to the party highest in the race and that would be CAQ.

A CAQ government would be a disaster,much worse than the PLQ.

So great,QS gets 20% support but CAQ walks away with the election win.

This is something I don't celebrate at all. Québec will go hard right before it goes left. With an election looming with CAQ the clear second place party,I fear Québec will put in power Frank Legault. A fucking asshole. And a man who has been inspired by Trump.

So great..QS is at 19% and only a couple points behind the PQ...That's wonderful...But the likely outcome of an election done today,would not be a victory for progressives. It will be a nightmare.

 

JKR

alan smithee wrote:

I wouldn't celebrate so fast. QS splits the PQ and QS vote. Which means the next election will be a race between PLQ and CAQ. If people are fed up with PLQ,they will most likely turn to the party highest in the race and that would be CAQ.

A CAQ government would be a disaster,much worse than the PLQ.

So great,QS gets 20% support but CAQ walks away with the election win.

This is something I don't celebrate at all. Québec will go hard right before it goes left. With an election looming with CAQ the clear second place party,I fear Québec will put in power Frank Legault. A fucking asshole. And a man who has been inspired by Trump.

So great..QS is at 19% and only a couple points behind the PQ...That's wonderful...But the likely outcome of an election done today,would not be a victory for progressives. It will be a nightmare.

 

Thank you FPTP.

Pogo Pogo's picture

That assumes that the PQ votes wouldn't collaps during an election as people become strategic.

 

JKR

I don't think people will vote strategically for a party that's in 3rd or 4th place.

Pogo Pogo's picture

JKR wrote:

I don't think people will vote strategically for a party that's in 3rd or 4th place.

3rd or 4th place provincially is differnent than the riding  by riding battles. If you are in a progressive leaning riding, you will likely consider electability in your voting decision and will be looking for the best progressive option.

Moreover 3&4 is where they are now (and hovering around 20% is not bad for 4th place). During the campaign the general rule is that the status quo will change, one party will go up and other will go down.  If the party going up is QS then it will create a momentum.

 

JKR

Pogo wrote:

JKR wrote:

I don't think people will vote strategically for a party that's in 3rd or 4th place.

3rd or 4th place provincially is differnent than the riding  by riding battles. If you are in a progressive leaning riding, you will likely consider electability in your voting decision and will be looking for the best progressive option.

Moreover 3&4 is where they are now (and hovering around 20% is not bad for 4th place). During the campaign the general rule is that the status quo will change, one party will go up and other will go down.  If the party going up is QS then it will create a momentum.

 

I think it would be better if there was electoral reform so there would be no obstacle to people voting for their 1st choice because of FPTP.  Does the QS support proportional representation?

pietro_bcc

NorthReport wrote:

Now all QS needs to do is find out some way to reach out to the non-francophone progressive voters in Quebec

http://globalnews.ca/news/3613078/quebec-liberal-party-losing-voter-supp...

The QS will never get significant support in the non-francophone population for the same reason that the PQ never did, they're separatists. That is the number one issue in my community that supercedes all others. I as an anglophone have voted QS, but I'll finally have a left wing federalist choice in the next election and I will choose it, the NPD-Q.

QS supporters tell me its a wasted vote, but so was a vote for QS in 2007. The QS would be irrelevant if not for people initially "wasting" their vote in QS' early days.

lagatta4

What happened to my comment?

pietro_bcc

Latest Mainstreet poll: http://www.mainstreetresearch.ca/pq-gains-august-race-tightens/

LPQ: 31% (-2)

CAQ: 28% (=)

PQ: 24% (+3)

QS: 17% (-2)

NorthReport

And what is the NPDQ polling at?

pietro_bcc

NorthReport wrote:

And what is the NPDQ polling at?

0% I assume, its never registered in a poll so its lumped into "other".

NorthReport

The NDP has enough internal trouble without creating more for itself.

Better to join QS and work with them.

Even if Quebec left Canada (which is not gonna happen), it would not be moving away, as it is still going to be in the same geographical place, and life would go on.

It is no longer socially acceptable for minorities to rule majorities.

 

NorthReport

Post it again - it's needed here.

lagatta4 wrote:

What happened to my comment?

NorthReport

Opinion: On racism, PQ action plan beats Liberal commission's talk

Parti Québécois Leader Jean-François Lisée questions the government over the Bombardier bonus increase to it's management, during question period, Wednesday, April 5, 2017 at the legislature in Quebec City.JENNIFER DROUIN

Premier Philippe Couillard’s government recently announced that it would hold a “Commission sur la discrimination systémique et le racisme.” This commission is misnamed. “Systemic” is an American buzzword; it is more accurate to use the term “institutional” to describe racism within social and political institutions, such as employment or policing. Easily confused with “systematic,” “systemic” gives the false impression that Quebec society is plagued with racism, like Alabama even after the abolition of Jim Crow laws.

I spent six years in Alabama witnessing institutional racism and becoming attuned to white privilege. Institutional racism in Quebec is not “systemic” in the American sense.

This commission’s “primary objective” is to “propose concrete and lasting solutions” to eradicate discrimination and racism. The Parti Québécois has already proposed 20 concrete solutions. However, the governing Liberals refuse to implement them, making their commission appear to be merely an attempt to play wedge politics in the lead-up to the October 2018 election. 

The 20 PQ proposals are divided along four axes: better recognize foreign qualifications; end structural obstacles in hiring; fight strongly against racism and discrimination; and take steps toward inclusion.

In the first axis, the PQ proposes one-stop-shopping for recognizing foreign diplomas and experience as well as extending the Qualification Montréal program across Quebec and establishing a common legal framework for internships through universities and professional orders. The PQ also wants immigrants to be better informed about requirements before they arrive and for there to be a reboot of negotiations toward reciprocal agreements with Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria that Couillard’s government quashed three years ago.

http://montrealgazette.com/opinion/opinion-on-racism-pq-action-plan-beat...

pietro_bcc

NorthReport wrote:

The NDP has enough internal trouble without creating more for itself.

Better to join QS and work with them.

Even if Quebec left Canada (which is not gonna happen), it would not be moving away, as it is still going to be in the same geographical place, and life would go on.

It is no longer socially acceptable for minorities to rule majorities.

I am an anglophone and while I have voted for QS in the past because I am against the Liberals' right wing politics, but now that I'm given a left wing federalist option I'm taking it. I was also more comfortable voting QS in the past because they had a low chance of winning (making the threat of a referendum less significant), today they have a good chance of winning or at the very least securing a coalition government with the PQ.

Also I agree that minorities should not rule majorities, which is why we need more federalist options. Why should federalists only have 1 choice and separatists 2 choices (and the CAQ who can't seem to decide whether to have a referendum in 5 years, 10 years or never) when over 60% of Quebecers are federalist? Makes no sense.

I am well aware that the NPDQ will not be forming government in 2018, the goal of the next election for us, as I see it is to hopefully make a splash in a few ridings getting results that get us exposure even if they're not necessarily wins (even 1 seat would be shocking given that we're starting at zero, it could likely only happen with a star candidate) and get as many votes as possible province wide (in order to increase the amount we'll get in public financing.)

Its also very interesting because I hear from some of my anglo friends that we're going to split the vote with the Liberals and let the PQ win and I hear from some of my friends on the left that the NPDQ will steal votes from QS and let the Liberals win. Partizans from both the Liberals and the QS are so hostile to our existance, if the NPDQ were so irrelevant they wouldn't care on either side. The fact that so many people feel threatened encourages me that upturning the current political order and opening up a space for a left/right debate, rather than having every election be a referendum on a referendum isn't a lost cause.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

pietro_bcc wrote:

NorthReport wrote:

The NDP has enough internal trouble without creating more for itself.

Better to join QS and work with them.

Even if Quebec left Canada (which is not gonna happen), it would not be moving away, as it is still going to be in the same geographical place, and life would go on.

It is no longer socially acceptable for minorities to rule majorities.

I am an anglophone and while I have voted for QS in the past because I am against the Liberals' right wing politics, but now that I'm given a left wing federalist option I'm taking it. I was also more comfortable voting QS in the past because they had a low chance of winning (making the threat of a referendum less significant), today they have a good chance of winning or at the very least securing a coalition government with the PQ.

Also I agree that minorities should not rule majorities, which is why we need more federalist options. Why should federalists only have 1 choice and separatists 2 choices (and the CAQ who can't seem to decide whether to have a referendum in 5 years, 10 years or never) when over 60% of Quebecers are federalist? Makes no sense.

I am well aware that the NPDQ will not be forming government in 2018, the goal of the next election for us, as I see it is to hopefully make a splash in a few ridings getting results that get us exposure even if they're not necessarily wins (even 1 seat would be shocking given that we're starting at zero, it could likely only happen with a star candidate) and get as many votes as possible province wide (in order to increase the amount we'll get in public financing.)

Its also very interesting because I hear from some of my anglo friends that we're going to split the vote with the Liberals and let the PQ win and I hear from some of my friends on the left that the NPDQ will steal votes from QS and let the Liberals win. Partizans from both the Liberals and the QS are so hostile to our existance, if the NPDQ were so irrelevant they wouldn't care on either side. The fact that so many people feel threatened encourages me that upturning the current political order and opening up a space for a left/right debate, rather than having every election be a referendum on a referendum isn't a lost cause.

I hope you'd at least agree that there's no good reason for NPD-Q candidates to stand in any ridings currently held by QS, or any QS would have a real chance of gaining from the PLQ, PQ, or CAQ.  Staying out of that type of riding would at least make sure an NPD-Q(if they actually go through with the plan to stand at the next election)did no damage.

pietro_bcc

Unless the NPDQ and QS were to form some alliance where each would stand down in chosen ridings, no (and at this point I don't know why QS would consider doing so given their size in comparison to the NPDQ, perhaps in future elections.)

I don't know why its assumed that the NPDQ should stand down anywhere unilaterally, they owe nothing to QS and are trying to form their own distinct base of left wing federalist support. They shouldn't ask for permission or apologize to QS, ultimately if they can't hold onto their supporters and lose them to some new party that was formed a few years ago that's their problem.

This is the same kind of argument the PQ tried to pull, where they accused QS of letting the Liberals win because they split the separatist vote, it was wrong then and its wrong now.

lagatta4

È assurdo, pietro. The PQ is no longer really a progressive party, and the NDP is considerably to the right of Québec solidaire.

Non capisco il tuo odio del Québec...

Of course you can vote however the fuck you want, but trying destroy Québec solidaire makes you objectively a splitter, a wrecker and a bloody reactionary. Go worship your goddam Queen...

Note that I have nothing at all personal against Her Majesty, just against people who pretend to be leftists and try to scuttle one of the few progressive parties north of the Rio Grande.

pietro_bcc

I don't care about the queen, I care about my rights and the rights of my community.

Francophones in the political class frequently complain about anglos voting as a bloc for the Liberals and against separatist parties, but never ask why they do so. Well the answer is simple and its the same reason why Quebec first nations people reject separatism. Its because their minority rights are tied to the federal government (in the case of the first nations technically the crown), if Quebec separates from Canada those rights will not be grandfathered in for either community, they will be stripped from us. And any recognition (if any) we do receive will be a far cry from what we already have. Why would either of our communities vote to have less rights? (not to mention that a victory by the PQ or QS will result in another 100,000 anglo exodus and result in further school and hospital closures, so hoping for a victory by either is essentially hoping for the destruction of our minority community.)

The PQ, CAQ and QS don't give a damn about our community and the Liberals only care about us once every 4 years when they want to encourage anglo turnout and convince us that we aren't taken for granted. The NPDQ finally gives us another real province wide option for the first time since '76. This is also the case for federalist francophones, who represent over half of all francophones.

You should be happy, the Liberals no longer have a monopoly on the federalist vote and if the NPDQ plays it right for the first time in decades the anglophone community will no longer vote as a block.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Pietro does raise one point:

Why didn't the PQ just make a formal policy commitment, a binding manifesto commitment, that an independent or "sovereignty-association" Quebec would guarantee First Nation and allophone voters the same rights they have under Confederation?  Wouldn't that simply have been the logical, sensible thing for the PQ to do in order to gain the trust of those communities?

It's not as though there were votes they could only win by putting the rights of First Nations and allophone peoples into question.

And I don't know where QS comes down on that-I'm assuming they have defined themselves in part, by their willingness to learn from the PQ's mistakes-but that would be a helpful thing for them to do if they have not done so.  

Could somebody summarize or post an English-language translation of what the QS program is on this?

NorthReport

Maybe Pietro actually is onto something here.

Did the QS bosses recently try and convince QS members they should join forces in some way with the PQ only to have the idea rejected by the QS rank and file membership?

NorthReport

Is this for real or is this a smear job?

Québec Solidaire prepares merger with right-wing nationalists

 

Pseudo-left organizations across Canada are hailing Québec Solidaire (QS), the pro-independence “new left” party, claiming that its recent annual congress represented a major advance in the building of a genuine alternative to the pro-austerity parties of the establishment.

Held in Montreal in late May, the congress was the scene of bitter wrangling over a proposal—supported by most of the QS leadership, but ultimately rejected by the delegates—for an electoral pact with the big-business Parti Québécois (PQ).

Writing in Socialist Project, Richard Fidler praised the gathering as a “united front against austerity and for independence,” while the International Socialists, the Canadian sister party of the US-based International Socialist Organization, enthused that the “largest convention in its 11-year history” had produced “historic strides” for QS.

Such rhetoric bears no relation to what took place. Despite its “left” populist rhetoric, QS is a party of the well-to-do middle class, hostile to the class struggle and thoroughly integrated into the PQ-dominated Quebec sovereignist movement. This movement serves as a political springboard for a section of the Quebec ruling class that wants greater autonomy and power for the Quebec state through secession from, or at least a radical restructuring of, the Canadian federation.

The creation of a capitalist République du Québec is antithetical to the interests of working people. It would weaken the working class by creating new state barriers to uniting Quebec workers with their class brothers and sisters in the rest of Canada and be used by the Quebec bourgeoisie to strengthen its position on the world stage and intensify the assault on the working class

At the QS congress, the party’s top brass were virtually unanimous in advocating an electoral pact with the PQ, in the name of defeating the ruling Liberals in the provincial election slated to be held in October 2018.

QS Member of the National Assembly (MNA) Amir Khadir trumpeted a plan to have the two parties field a common candidate in some 30 electoral districts to avoid “splitting the sovereignist vote.” This, he gushed, could enable QS to at least triple its current three-member delegation in the 125-seat National Assembly.

However, a majority of the delegates felt the QS would be badly discredited if it entered into a formal alliance with a big-business party that stokes anti-immigrant chauvinism and has imposed savage austerity measures whenever it has held office.

Québec Solidaire’s rejection of a formal alliance with the PQ is a tactical maneuver. It does not represent a break with QS’s basic orientation, whether it be working as an integral part of the PQ-led sovereignty movement or seeking to carve out a place for itself in the political establishment as a “responsible” force—and possible partner in a pro-independence government.

In a decision that highlights that Québec Solidaire remains ready to work with right-wing Quebec nationalists, the congress delegates voted by a massive majority to open merger negotiations with Option Nationale (ON). Formed by former PQ leaders disappointed by its supposed lack of zeal for independence, ON regularly denounces QS from the right for its timid reformist promises. According to ON, QS puts “too much emphasis” on social issues and should instead focus all its energies on promoting Quebec independence.

The QS leadership was clearly taken aback by the rejection of its plans for an electoral alliance with the PQ. But it quickly shifted gears, declaring that the vote showed that QS is among the “left-wing” movements that “are leaving behind the old parties, the old way of doing business in politics,” citing as examples Bernie Sanders in the United States and Jean-Luc Mélenchon in France.

This is part of QS’s efforts to give itself a radical aura, the better to block a real break by workers and young people with the capitalist system and with the “left” political mechanisms that ensure its survival.

This is the type of role played by Sanders and Mélenchon. The former worked to channel the growing anti-capitalist sentiments of millions of young Americans behind the big-business Democratic Party and Hillary Clinton, the preferred candidate of Wall Street, in the 2016 presidential election. The latter, a former leader of the Socialist Party (PS), provided a “left” foil for Emmanuel Macron in this year’s presidential election. Although Macron has been brought to power to intensify the frontal attack launched by the previous PS government of Francois Hollande on the democratic and social rights of French workers, Mélenchon has repeatedly offered to work with him, including by serving as his prime minister.

Québec Solidaire similarly seeks to keep the working class within the straitjacket of establishment politics. During the province-wide student strike in 2012, QS helped the union bureaucracy channel a youth revolt that threatened to trigger a working-class upsurge against the austerity program of Jean Charest’s Liberals behind the election of a PQ government. Two months before the election, when the strike was at it height, QS urged the PQ to join it in an electoral alliance and just days before the vote, QS pledged its unconditional support for a PQ minority government.

Even without a formal agreement with the PQ, QS is continuing to promote this right-wing party. The congress had barely ended when the two newly elected spokespersons of Québec Solidaire, Manon Massé and Gabriel Nadeau-Dubois (one of the principal leaders of the 2012 student strike), were again reaching out to the Parti Québécois.

“This is a period when we are going to have to reestablish links, to learn to trust,” Massé said in an interview with the Le Devoir, a daily close to sovereignist circles.

She then responded favorably to the PQ, which was demanding that QS leaders “dissociate” themselves from criticisms leveled against it on the congress floor—the fact that some delegates had pointed to the austerity measures imposed by PQ governments and to the anti-Muslim appeals it made in promoting its chauvinist Charter of Quebec Values. While saying she “understood” why QS members might make such criticisms, Massé sought to minimize them by declaring that “the Parti Québécois is clearly not racist.”

As for Nadeau-Dubois, he quickly distanced himself from any criticism of the PQ. “I invite all sovereigntists, all progressives to focus on the party in power that has weakened Quebec over the last 15 years,” he said after being elected to the National Assembly in a May 29 by-election, held due to the retirement of QS leader Françoise David.

In a June 8 press briefing Nadeau-Dubois explained that the decision taken at the QS congress was simply to present candidates in all ridings, and not to “not work with the Parti Québécois in any context and under any conditions.”

The president of Québec Solidaire, Nika Deslauriers, spoke in the same vein, declaring after the congress: “We would like to reaffirm that we will continue to collaborate in the work of YES-Quebec at the appropriate time.”

YES-Quebec (United Organizations for Independence) has served for years as a mechanism through which Québec Solidaire maintains close ties with the entire Quebec sovereignist movement. This includes the trade union bureaucracy, which for decades has politically subordinated workers to the PQ, while stifling working-class opposition to employer attacks, including recently scuttling a province-wide strike of 175,000 construction workers.

The turn of QS towards a more aggressive promotion of Quebec nationalism through its proposed merger with ON is deeply reactionary. Daily life is demonstrating ever more clearly that the fundamental problems facing Quebec workers—capitalist austerity and war—are those facing workers in English Canada, the US, and around the world and that their solution requires the mobilization of the international working class on a socialist program. Yet QS is working with the unions to isolate and divide Quebec workers from the international working class and bind them to the pro-sovereignty wing of the bourgeoisie.

Moreover, Québec Solidaire’s decision to prepare a merger with Option Nationale is intended primarily to facilitate a future rapprochement with the Parti Québécois.

“Negotiations for the YES-Quebec road map will have to succeed, because independentists will need a common strategy more than ever before,” Option Nationale head Sol Zanetti wrote recently. He then went on to conclude on this note: “QS and the PQ will have to consider the idea of temporary electoral pacts in the light of the new conjuncture.”

In spite of the “progressive” or even “left” label that is attached to it by the numerous pseudo-left groups that have dissolved themselves into it, Québec Solidaire stands revealed as being, like Option Nationale, a right-wing nationalist party.

The anti-worker content of the independence program was openly articulated by Jean-Martin Aussant, the investment banker who founded Option Nationale with the political support of Jacques Parizeau—an ex-PQ Premier, who until his death in 2015 was seen as the leader of the “hardliners” who demand a complete break with the Canadian federal state.

“Independence will enable us to better manage all the other issues: health, education, infrastructure, economic development,” said Aussant in 2012. This was followed by an explanation that unmasks QS’s fraudulent attempts to present Quebec independence as a democratic project and vehicle for social progress.

“When we talk about restructuring school boards and health agencies, rationalizing the state,” said the founder of Option Nationale, “it is associated with a certain right administratively and economically.”

In other words, the reorganization of the state apparatus required for the achievement of Quebec independence would be used by the ruling class to launch an all-out assault on what remains of public services and workers’ social rights.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/08/07/qson-a07.html

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Is this for real or is this a smear job?

The use of terms like "the pseudo-left" is a huge hint.

"Pseudo-left" is to the left as "Cuck-servative" is to the right.  They're intended solely to shame, name, and blame.

 

progressive17 progressive17's picture

I am a Quebec citizen by birthright, however I have lived most of my life in Equity jurisdictions. I don't see the problem as left and right (as I am both a wage earner and a pensioner who receives profits - and I would gladly give up the profits for a living wage and a good government pension/guaranteed minimum income) or sovereignity and federalism (as I recognize both Canada and Quebec as nations). 

Instead I see the issues as deontology (the rules must be followed at all costs), consequentialism (the ends justify the means) and equity (the magistrate who does not consider mitigating circumstances is nothing but a tyrant). We use equity to put equality in effect, because different people have different needs. There is also the phenomenon of "strong man/woman" politics or "my way or the doorway".

If there is to be a sovereign Quebec, it must have a Supreme Court which can whack the government when it passes unfair laws, and corporations when they destroy land, water, and air, and the lives of people. It must have a charter of rights and freedoms, not values. Rights and freedoms are inalienable. Values are anything you want, no matter how communitarian you say you are not. Nothing less is acceptable for anyone with some Canadian experience. As a prisoners' rights activist I am very glad we have a Supreme Court of Canada which issued the Jordan decision that requires the tardy Quebec justice system to shit or get off the pot in terms of bringing people to trial. A "Charter of Values" ain't going to cut it.

The next thing I notice is that there seems to be an undue obsession with deontology in Quebec. The authorities in Quebec seem to be bloody-minded about their rules, and they do not consider individual circumstances. It doesn't matter if those people did it, I CAUGHT YOU. Sounds like school. It seems to be a ghost of the Seignurie. 

The "strong man/woman" syndrome is good for building rapid transit, and much more progress seems to have happened in Montreal than in dithering Toronto in this regard. The obsession with "Leadership" is a neoliberal trope we should all get over. Couillard and Barette are a "strong men", and Coderre is a "strong man". The obsession with "strong men" is vaguely fascist.  It has also led to corruption, because all you have to do is bribe the "strong man". Yet another ghost of the Seignurie. 

So, where are we in terms of fascism? Anglos and Allos fear La Meute and those who wish to pander to its vote. If 25% are Trump supporters in the USA, and 25% are the core racist Reform vote in the Rest of Canada, we might assume 25% of francophones are sympathetic to La Meute-type ideas. The CAQ seems to be pandering to them now. 75% of francophones thus might split between the Liberals, the QNDP, the PQ, and QS. 

Except for a hard-core few Anglos in Quebec who identify with the Left, you are going to see a monolithic vote for the Liberals. Don't kid yourself. They are not going to want to split that vote. They know the SCOC and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is a brake on the power of a communitarian francophone Quebec government. They know there is a higher authority. 

I work with a lot of allophones in my job, and I socialize with more. To a man and woman, they are all going Liberal. Why are the Haitians not welcomed by CAQ? After all, they speak excellent French. The reason is that they are black. What about people from North Africa who speak excellent French? The reason is they are Muslims. There are tons of jobs available in Montreal, and we need them all. Open the floodgates. Get them work permits ASAFP.

A friend who was from Iran originally works in a factory a commuter train and then a bus ride out of Montreal. "It is not like Montreal. They are all white people, and they hate anyone from outside."

If the sovereignists want to make an intelligent case to ALL of Quebec, Quebec needs to get its shit together as a functioning modern Equity jurisdiction. A Common Market and a Schengen-like area with the Rest of Canada would surely follow.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

That story in post #534 is from the World Socialist Web Site...associated with the Socialist Equality Party, the "People's Front of Judea" of the 21st Century Left.  The SEP believe that they and they alone have the "correct" analysis and the necessary strategy and program for change, and that everybody else should just fall into line behind them.

I'm guessing they wanted to join QS and were turned away, because QS realized letting the SEP joined them meant either letting the SEP lead them or letting the SEP disrupt and sabotage everything until they did.  

Their ideology could best be described as "Soreism-Loserism".

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

progressive17 wrote:

I am a Quebec citizen by birthright, however I have lived most of my life in Equity jurisdictions. I don't see the problem as left and right (as I am both a wage earner and a pensioner who receives profits - and I would gladly give up the profits for a living wage and a good government pension/guaranteed minimum income) or sovereignity and federalism (as I recognize both Canada and Quebec as nations). 

Instead I see the issues as deontology (the rules must be followed at all costs), consequentialism (the ends justify the means) and equity (the magistrate who does not consider mitigating circumstances is nothing but a tyrant). We use equity to put equality in effect, because different people have different needs. There is also the phenomenon of "strong man/woman" politics or "my way or the doorway".

If there is to be a sovereign Quebec, it must have a Supreme Court which can whack the government when it passes unfair laws, and corporations when they destroy land, water, and air, and the lives of people. It must have a charter of rights and freedoms, not values. Rights and freedoms are inalienable. Values are anything you want, no matter how communitarian you say you are not. Nothing less is acceptable for anyone with some Canadian experience. As a prisoners' rights activist I am very glad we have a Supreme Court of Canada which issued the Jordan decision that requires the tardy Quebec justice system to shit or get off the pot in terms of bringing people to trial. A "Charter of Values" ain't going to cut it.

The next thing I notice is that there seems to be an undue obsession with deontology in Quebec. The authorities in Quebec seem to be bloody-minded about their rules, and they do not consider individual circumstances. It doesn't matter if those people did it, I CAUGHT YOU. Sounds like school. It seems to be a ghost of the Seignurie. 

The "strong man/woman" syndrome is good for building rapid transit, and much more progress seems to have happened in Montreal than in dithering Toronto in this regard. The obsession with "Leadership" is a neoliberal trope we should all get over. Couillard and Barette are a "strong men", and Coderre is a "strong man". The obsession with "strong men" is vaguely fascist.  It has also led to corruption, because all you have to do is bribe the "strong man". Yet another ghost of the Seignurie. 

So, where are we in terms of fascism? Anglos and Allos fear La Meute and those who wish to pander to its vote. If 25% are Trump supporters in the USA, and 25% are the core racist Reform vote in the Rest of Canada, we might assume 25% of francophones are sympathetic to La Meute-type ideas. The CAQ seems to be pandering to them now. 75% of francophones thus might split between the Liberals, the QNDP, the PQ, and QS. 

Except for a hard-core few Anglos in Quebec who identify with the Left, you are going to see a monolithic vote for the Liberals. Don't kid yourself. They are not going to want to split that vote. They know the SCOC and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is a brake on the power of a communitarian francophone Quebec government. They know there is a higher authority. 

I work with a lot of allophones in my job, and I socialize with more. To a man and woman, they are all going Liberal. Why are the Haitians not welcomed by CAQ? After all, they speak excellent French. The reason is that they are black. What about people from North Africa who speak excellent French? The reason is they are Muslims. There are tons of jobs available in Montreal, and we need them all. Open the floodgates. Get them work permits ASAFP.

A friend who was from Iran originally works in a factory a commuter train and then a bus ride out of Montreal. "It is not like Montreal. They are all white people, and they hate anyone from outside."

If the sovereignists want to make an intelligent case to ALL of Quebec, Quebec needs to get its shit together as a functioning modern Equity jurisdiction. A Common Market and a Schengen-like area with the Rest of Canada would surely follow.

What exactly do you mean by "Equity jurisdictions"?

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

As much as it pains me to say,the antifa protestors' actions today were embarrassing and counter-productive. The fascists looked like the peaceful party and as much as Id like to have seen them act like they did last week in Charlottesville,they protested peacefully.

Having said that,one of the fascist's supporters lamented how 'We didn't hear about halal a few years ago and now it's everywhere'

It was a glaring glimpse into how stupid these fascists are. Instead of letting the fascists show themselves as the idiots they are,the antifa protestors looked like the idiots.

This is not good. It makes it too easy for the right wing press in Québec to paint the Left as the radicals and troublemakers. They should have stayed home or peacefully counter-protested.

Things are going to get much worse in Québec. It was fitting that the fascist protest took place in Quebec City,it is the arm pit of this province. If the same thing happens in Montréal,this is going to knock progressives back at least a decade.

progressive17 progressive17's picture

Equity as being Common Law instead of Civil Code...

NorthReport

I am not big on nationalism, but perhaps the reason for that is that I have never considered myself a minority, at least physically, except while traveling. My hunch is though if people have decent jobs, a good standard of living, that nationalism disapates, not necessarily for everyone, but for most.

Fifty years later, Quebec nationalism is fierce when put to even the slightest of tests

http://www.thenewsherald.com/opinion/fifty-years-later-quebec-nationalis...

lagatta4

Common Law as opposed to Civil Code is the British model. Civil Codes can be reformed; the Québec Civil Code has been radically reformed, especially in terms of women's rights and family law. It would be very strange if Québec would opt for a British model when the conquerers explicitly allowed the population of New France to use a French (and Latin) one, also used in the other Latin-speaking countries in the Americas.

Why did anyone post an entire rant by the sectarian leeches at WSWS? They tagged along at meetings during the Student spring only to insult the leaders and activists as "petits-bourgeois".

It is true that QS doesn't have a lot of members in industrial unions, though there are some. That is typical of such movements at the outset. And calling the QS membership or electorate "well-off" is an outright lie. The actual profile of the QS member or voter is a higher educational level than those of the Liberals, PQ or CAQ (caca), but a LOWER income. In other words, educated but precarious workers. If one of those arseholes were to call me "well-off", they would certainly regret it.

It must be funny to see WSWS members carrying the correct line into a meeting of the Spartacists, or vice-versa.

Pietro, sé vuoi traslocare in Ontario, la strada è aperta.

As far as the fascist demo in QC and the Black Bloc idiots, it would be interesting to look into what they are up to. There was a peaceful orderly antiracist - antifascist demo and then they came along at the end... I wasn't there so I'm waiting to hear more about how it broke down. I think the leaders of the large, peaceful demonstration didn't have adequate marshalling, but can't make a definite statement without more info.

pietro_bcc

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alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I don't understand. If one is an anglophone living in Québec who cannot accept this province (haven't achieved independance yet so I can't say country) is French in culture and in dominate language,I don't know what you're doing living here.

My problem with Québec politics is that each party is obsessed with hanging on to ideology (or at least raison d'etre)/

The PLQ is obsessed with neo-Liberalism without a hint of progressive ideas. Basically the Conservative Party of Québec

CAQ is obsessed with attaining power,its leader fancies himself as the Donald Trump of Québec. They are a welcome mat to the far right and would be an epic disaster if given the keys to the Kingdom. Can you imagine a party worse than PLQ? Welcome to CAQ.

The PQ is obsessed with language,is left or right depending on whom ever happens to be leading the party. A party that is dubbed 'progressive'but in reality have not been progressive since Lévesque. They are a hot mess who beyond the language issue are void of any real policy,socially or otherwise.

QS. 3 seats is just not enough to make a difference. They need to be more populist and more exposure . (which is almost impossible since they are ignored by the media unless it's to bash them)

Anglos in Québec are predictable. They will always vote Liberal because they are always promising linguistic parity. Which never amounts to anything.

Québec anglos are mostly more conservative than their francophone neighbours. I'm actually happy that their votes mean almost nothing.

But the entire political make-up of this province is anti-progressive,save QS. Québec runs more conservatively than your average Québecois opinions and values.

Hands down,the most progressive province in Canada is BC. I doubt Québec would even qualify as the second most.

Québec's political class is hopelessly out of touch. They seem to cater more to QC and the regions. Montréal is the engine that runs Québec. It should be given special powers and status. Leave the redneck politics to the rednecks living north of the St-Lawrence of Montréal. The most progressive city east of British Columbia.

lagatta4

I don't want you to leave, you have every right to live here - people whose politics I hate (you, La Meute etc) are Québec citizens too. Just reminding you that you have an easy choice if you want to live in English. You don't even have to move to the GTA; Ottawa isn't far at all. But aren't you an allophone?

I'm just sick of allophones allowing themselves to be used by the remains of the old anglo élite rather than acting in solidarity with other Québécois. You seem to be opposed to French being "la langue commune" in Québec.

Québec is a nation; we have our own structure of political parties. I don't like the CAQ any more than the Cons, but they are "our" rightwing bastards. You are the one who is trying to put us in the anglo-North American blenderizer.

I don't dislike our neighbours east and west in the slightest; I lived quite happily in Ontario for a while. I speak four languages and scraps of others, which isn't even unusual here. Original language retention is far lower in Toronto than in Montréal.

Fortunately I know several progressive anglophones and allophones who not only vote for but are active in QS.

The Colonel-Blimpish EEKs will not return. Now Galganoff is harassing Franco-Ontarians in the United Counties; weird, as they tend to be strong federalists. Because their language actually is threatened, and they stand up for it.

 

 

progressive17 progressive17's picture

If someone says their race is being threatened, that would be a big deal. If someone says their language is being threatened, it is not a big deal. It is not just French. Unless you speak a very specific version of French, you can be denied government services in Quebec. They will not communicate with someone who speaks non-local French or any other language. They will not communicate with Acadians, for example, who live in the next territory. And God help you if you are black or brown or speak Metropolitan French.

So it is not just French. They are not inclusive. They want everyone else to go away, and refuse to keep up their population numbers through having children. This is a huge sparsely populated territory in a world where the population is dense. People are going to move here, and they are not going to speak French the way you do. Sorry, but you can't stop them.

It is said that if you want to live in English, just go away. Then in the same breath it is said that Montreal is the economic engine of Quebec. Why do you think that is? Montreal trades with people who speak English. Montreal extracts money from people all across North America, who all speak English. They come as tourists. They buy stuff from Montreal companies like the Royal Bank and the Bank of Montreal and many others.

The money from Montreal goes out to the other areas of Quebec, including where La Meute come from. It pays for their schools, hospitals, and roads. All served in the language they speak in. As it should be.

So why not live and let live? This is a good place to live, whatever language you speak. In Cote de Neiges, it was recently reported they speak 45 languages. Do you think that is a good thing or a bad thing? Or should they all just go away?

lagatta4

I think it is wonderful that people speak 45 languages in Côte-des-Neiges. Not quite so many where I live, but here near Marché Jean-Talon, it is very multicultural and multilingual.

But your "they" is frankly disgusting, and borderline racist. Lots of people around here are not of "pure-laine" Québécois origin. Plenty of Maghrebis, Levantines, and Français de France, who don't all speak "Parisian" French. Bullshit that they are denied government services; where on earth did you come up with this mendacious crap? In my area there are also a lot of Vietnamese and other Southeast Asians from the former "French Indochina".

Look at this crap:

 So it is not just French. They are not inclusive. They want everyone else to go away, and refuse to keep up their population numbers through having children. This is a huge sparsely populated territory in a world where the population is dense. People are going to move here, and they are not going to speak French the way you do. Sorry, but you can't stop them.

Who the hell is this guy speaking to? To La Meute? To me? Do you know my posting history or my history as an activist, including in anti-racist movements and for the integration of immigrant workers in Québec labour unions? Or what kind of French I speak? Disgusting bastard.

And you do know that a lot of people in North America speak Spanish, non?

French as a common language does not mean that people in tourism and hospitality languages won't speak languages spoken by visitors? Hotel concierges speak a lot more than two languages. Many people in hospitality speak several, at least in terms of the vocabulary they need for their work.

Why are you using a left-wing raised-fist in red when you are advocating bowing down to the .00001% and their economic imperatives?

MegB

progressive17 wrote:

If someone says their race is being threatened, that would be a big deal. If someone says their language is being threatened, it is not a big deal. It is not just French. Unless you speak a very specific version of French, you can be denied government services in Quebec. They will not communicate with someone who speaks non-local French or any other language. They will not communicate with Acadians, for example, who live in the next territory. And God help you if you are black or brown or speak Metropolitan French.

So it is not just French. They are not inclusive. They want everyone else to go away, and refuse to keep up their population numbers through having children. This is a huge sparsely populated territory in a world where the population is dense. People are going to move here, and they are not going to speak French the way you do. Sorry, but you can't stop them.

It is said that if you want to live in English, just go away. Then in the same breath it is said that Montreal is the economic engine of Quebec. Why do you think that is? Montreal trades with people who speak English. Montreal extracts money from people all across North America, who all speak English. They come as tourists. They buy stuff from Montreal companies like the Royal Bank and the Bank of Montreal and many others.

The money from Montreal goes out to the other areas of Quebec, including where La Meute come from. It pays for their schools, hospitals, and roads. All served in the language they speak in. As it should be.

So why not live and let live? This is a good place to live, whatever language you speak. In Cote de Neiges, it was recently reported they speak 45 languages. Do you think that is a good thing or a bad thing? Or should they all just go away?

This is quite likely the most bigoted post I've encountered on babble for quite some time. It's clear you know jack shit about Quebec. Your opinions are uninformed, your comments are largely fabricated, and that's unacceptable. We have to deal with enough hate these days without you stirring the pot. As moderator of these forums I'm suggesting that you back way off, or you'll find yourself suspended or even banned. 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
I don't understand. If one is an anglophone living in Québec who cannot accept this province (haven't achieved independance yet so I can't say country) is French in culture and in dominate language,I don't know what you're doing living here.

I live in Toronto, where the dominant language is English, but my cereal box still has French on it -- and not in tiny letters, either -- and when I shop in Chinatown, some things have neither English nor French on them.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
I don't understand. If one is an anglophone living in Québec who cannot accept this province (haven't achieved independance yet so I can't say country) is French in culture and in dominate language,I don't know what you're doing living here.

I live in Toronto, where the dominant language is English, but my cereal box still has French on it -- and not in tiny letters, either -- and when I shop in Chinatown, some things have neither English nor French on them.

We have a Chinatown too. The language in that area is Chinese (mandarin and/or cantonese). Our food boxes are also bilingual. If you want services in English,you have no problem.

The face of this province is French. And to be quite honest,it's something I very much like about living here.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
We have a Chinatown too. The language in that area is Chinese (mandarin and/or cantonese).

On signs?  And packaging?

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