Quebec polls and parties 2014

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Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Bill 101 has been in place for 4o years now.  Why can't the Anglos just accept that they brought it on themselves, admit that weakening or repealing it isn't more important than everything else in the universe, and move on already?

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Bill 101 has been in place for 4o years now.  Why can't the Anglos just accept that they brought it on themselves

Well, for starters, 40 years ago I was ten.

But also, justice shouldn't be "the swing of the pendulum".  If, 40 years ago, Anglo adults fucked things up in Quebec, that's really not sufficient reason that a sign that says "Pasta" today needs government intervention.  It's not even an English word.

lagatta4

On business signs, but the Chinese-language ones (Cantonese, Mandarin or other Chinese languages) are usually also transliterated into Roman script, just as they are in Toronto. There are also a lot of businesses from SoutheastC Asia (especially the former colonial "French Indochina"), in our main Chinatown. There are not as many Chinatowns as in the GTA, but there is a large one in Brossard on the South Shore, and significant knots in Côte-des-Neiges and elsewhere. Near me there are many Vietnamese, Cambodian, Laotian businesses, including many who are Sino-X.

Pretty much all packaging is bilingual FR-EN, as in Toronto. As some small local businesses are in English only chez vous, they might be in French only chez nous. And nobody is calling for that.

lagatta4

Actually that wasn't the origin of "pastagate", though the OLF really fell into a trap set by a very dodgy business owner. That guy is as much of a scumbag as Peter Sergakis aka Mr Sleaze. Buonanotte was a well-known mob hangout, and a notorious exploiter of female staff.

progressive17 progressive17's picture

1. Laws are made to be broken, repealed, and ruled illegal by the Supreme Court.

2. Wishing for "dominance" is scary and unacceptable.

3. Telling people they should leave Quebec is highly intolerant, and has no place in civilized conversation. This is also what La Meute says, so get over it. 

4.  A lot of racists have power, in the US, the rest of Canada, and Quebec. Quebecois are not immune to racism. There are racists who work in government and make decisions affecting people. This is true all across North America. Racists here discriminate on the basis of race and accent, as they do all over the world. This kind of racism has affected me and others. Saying it does not exist is putting your head in the sand. Get over it.

5. The expression "pur laine" invokes racial purity, which is akin to Nazi thought. Get over this please. It does not sit well with a "leftist", "socialist", or "anti-racist" positions. 

6. If you want to ban me, go right ahead. It is not as if I am getting paid to write things here. Calling me a bigot when I and others I know have been victims of bigots in Quebec is not a very good way to make friends. It seems like you want to add insult to injury. You should be ashamed of yourselves. I have lived in Quebec for years now and I know WTF I am talking about. Do you live here?

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
We have a Chinatown too. The language in that area is Chinese (mandarin and/or cantonese).

On signs?  And packaging?

 

On signs,absolutely. On packaging,I'm not certain so I'm not going to assume anything.

There is no law against Chinese on public signs or in businesses etc.. I'm not sure about other languages because I never thought about looking for them.

Bill 101 was written to keep Québec's face French and as far as I know,applies mostly to the English language.

But things have changed a lot since 1977. You seee a lot more English signs than you did 25 years ago and (in Montréal at least) English is spoken more and more.

I live in St-Henri which is in the Southwest area of Montréal. Things have changed dramatically since 25 years ago. 25 years ago this district was very francophone..back when this was Balconville. Since the area has been gentrified, a lot of businesses are English owned...Some Spanish ones too but a lot of anglophone businesses with anglophone employees.

25 years ago,French was the dominate language in this burough but now every 2nd person you hear talking on the street or in the parks or at these new businesses is anglophone. It should also be noted that this is no longer Balconville..It's now Condoville...a lot of hipsters and yuppies who'd never fit in this area years ago. Now the old stock has pretty much disappeared and are alienated from this new gentrified St-Henri. This is true for almost all of the Southwest. (The Point,St-Henri,Burgundy,Griffintown,Cote St-Paul and even Ville Émard) Ville Emard is still mostly francophone but has not been fully gentrified yet.. Coincidence? Maybe but a strange coincidence nonetheless...Cote St-Paul has not been completely gentrified yet as well...and that is a very francophone neighbourhood.

I think a lot of these hipsters and yuppies are not from Québec..I could be wrong but why is it that most of them are anglos? I know a lot of duplexes,triplexes and appartment buildings have been bought by wealthy Chinese people. The rents have sky rocketed but vacancies have increased a lot since 2000. The old stock really can't afford these rents and are being pushed into Ville St-Pierre and Lachine..Not hot beds of gentrification -- yet. although the further west you go in Lachine,the higher the rents become.

Gentrification is not only turning Montréal into a playground for the rich but it's turning into a graveyard for the poor.And I think rent wise,this once very affordable city was decimated by people who came from other provinces and countries who were OK with a $300 appartment being plugged at $750 because chez eux that was a good deal for an appartment.

I lived in a 2 and a half appartment on Duluth street in 1990 and the rent was $220..that same appartment is probably 3 or 4 times higher now. Yes,it was many years ago but seeing that rents (back when the Régie protected tenants) could only increase a maximum 1.9% per year., And if you do the math,the rent would still be relatively cheap today but it isn't. The Plateau was very affordable once upon a time. Then it became trendy and exclusive. Mostly from students who are from outside Québec. Again,English is very much represented.

So when an anglo laments about being oppressed by bill 101 or not being able to get services in English,they are a bold face liar.

lagatta4

"Pure laine"; always written in scare quotes, and usually with more than a bit of mockery towards those who identify as such. Perhaps it might be a compliment for La Meute types, but not for anyone progressive. More like a reference to Brassens "Les imbéciles heureux qui sont nés quelque part": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT05hHJOBiA

I don't give a shit about what the 17 guy says. I've had to deal with that type of contempuous macho many times in my rather long life, and manage to go on living quite well despite them.  Writing some articles for my local tenants' association, made up of Québécois from everywhere on earth...  Mostly working on Indigenous culture and recognition this summer, and the festival celebrating the 10th anniversary of the UN declaration on the rights of Indigenous people.

The actions by black-block type groups are extremely negative for those of us who have been organising against bigotry and for a welcoming Québec (which also means a Québec that can not only protect but promote the development of a living culture in French) and some suspect undercover involvement - not the first time, from the RCMP in the FLQ to the "demonstrators" with police boots at Montebello.

I think we will have to take more care about how we marshall peaceful demonstrations to prevent such degeneration caused by a small group of "casseurs". It is delicate, because more radical voices must not be silenced. 

The question is how progressives in Québec, whether in Québec solidaire, unions, community associations etc should organise both against the growth of rightwing groups such as La Meute - and much larger rightwing parties such as CAQ, but also against the DOMINANCE of the Québec Liberal party with its assimilationist agenda.

There's some actual dominance for ya, and indeed the phenomena such as one has observed in St-Henri and elsewhere are worrying and the kind of things that can give rise to a reactionary backlash.

lagatta4

A couple of random elements of interest; a long interview with Amir Khadir on Radio-Canada, about his life and involvement: https://www.facebook.com/Quebecsolidaire/videos/vb.11392874217/101553992...

Some of the inevitable knuckle-dragger comments accusing the very secular Khadirs of somehow abetting Islamic terrorism....

And a summary of a whole issue of Nouveau cahiers du socialisme about Québec popular movements and the defence of Indigenous rights; a very interesting development in the real world (and not the caricature of Québec we've sometimes encountered on this thread):

http://www.ledevoir.com/politique/quebec/506202/les-mouvements-populaire...

 

pietro_bcc

I don't understand. If one is an anglophone living in Québec who cannot accept this province (haven't achieved independance yet so I can't say country) is French in culture and in dominate language,I don't know what you're doing living here.

I have no problem with french being the primary language in Quebec, I do have a problem with discriminatory laws that suppress and harass minority language communities and restrict the freedom of immigrants. Bill 101 was never about "promoting and protecting" the french language, it was about getting revenge on anglophones and using the stick to get anglophones to leave (which hundreds of thousands did) rather than the carrot to get them to learn french which they never tried (free french class exists for new arrivals, but anglos are not allowed to access these classes, they must pay.)

I don't want you to leave, you have every right to live here - people whose politics I hate (you, La Meute etc) are Québec citizens too. Just reminding you that you have an easy choice if you want to live in English. You don't even have to move to the GTA; Ottawa isn't far at all. But aren't you an allophone?

I'm just sick of allophones allowing themselves to be used by the remains of the old anglo élite rather than acting in solidarity with other Québécois. You seem to be opposed to French being "la langue commune" in Québec.

Québec is a nation; we have our own structure of political parties. I don't like the CAQ any more than the Cons, but they are "our" rightwing bastards. You are the one who is trying to put us in the anglo-North American blenderizer.

I don't dislike our neighbours east and west in the slightest; I lived quite happily in Ontario for a while. I speak four languages and scraps of others, which isn't even unusual here. Original language retention is far lower in Toronto than in Montréal.

Fortunately I know several progressive anglophones and allophones who not only vote for but are active in QS.

The Colonel-Blimpish EEKs will not return. Now Galganoff is harassing Franco-Ontarians in the United Counties; weird, as they tend to be strong federalists. Because their language actually is threatened, and they stand up for it.

I am an allophone (Italian first language, French second, English third), the reason that I and probably most Italian in Quebec feel like a part of the anglophone community and go to english schools (which I did) is because of the way schooling was treated pre-Bill 22. When my mother and grandmother emigrated to Quebec, my grandmother tried to send my mom to a French Catholic school and the school administrator refused and said that Italians belong in English schools. This was was widespread in the 60's and prior, immigrants were forced into English schools. Now its the opposite, immigrants still have no choice and are instead forced into french schools.  For the first time in Quebec's history, I want immigrants to have a freedom of choice in education.

To put my general point shorter, my problem isn't with french, its with restrictions on English.

Also I think your view on anglophones is a little antiquated, they're not the elite, they were the elite before Bill 101, all the big businesses have left and there is no elite group of anglos, there are a couple like the Bronfmans and the Molsons, but in general anglos are no more well off than francophones. I don't think we're being used whatsoever, its just that anglos have always been more welcoming in my personal life experience. When I was a kid I couldn't get a job from a francophone to save my life, I even got rejected from McDonalds and the boss told me straight up it was because my french wasn't good enough, the only job I could get at the time was from a small casse croute owned by an anglo, from then on I found that while there are jerks of all languages and good people of all languages, I just feel more comfortable in the anglo community and feel more accepted.

Bill 101 has been in place for 4o years now.  Why can't the Anglos just accept that they brought it on themselves, admit that weakening or repealing it isn't more important than everything else in the universe, and move on already?

See, it is about punishment, just look at what you wrote. "We brought it on ourselves", we deserve this punishment. People like Jean Francois Lisee haven't let it go and still think they're living in the 1950's and just got insulted by the mythical "fat english lady at Eatons" and is pushing further restrictive language laws, so why should anglos let it go? If the language hardliners insist on continuing to push the Overton window towards language restrictions, I deeply hope that anglos push back with even greater ferocity and resistance than in the past. I want the "angryphones" to get angrier.

lagatta4

È per questo che siamo nemici, pietro. Anch'io sono italofona; ma ero con la FILEF, non con il Consiglio italo-canadese.

I also speak Italian, French, English - and Spanish - fluently. I don't hate any people or any language, but I certainly have no love lost for the angryphones.  And yes, I'm aware of the fact that some children of Italian immigrants were refused admission to francophone schools. I'm not exactly ignorant of history, having a useless master's in that subject.

Marco Micone spoke of the anglos who were prepared to fight for dominance "down to the last Italian"...

If people emigrate to Italy, unless they are members of the tiny ultra-rich minority that opts for private, non-funded "international schools", they damned well have to send their children to Italian-language schools...

We have no interest in talking to each other, as we have mutually-exclusive objectives. I am squarely anti-racist, but I'm also against the national oppression of Québec.

I confess to being a bit simplistic in my earlier post; the national question is still there, but must be re-defined, in particular in terms with support to and partnership with Indigenous peoples, who were and remain even more oppressed and are in the midst of a huge awakening. But I'm also amused to think of locking the angryphones up in a room with La Meute. Sort of equal and opposite bigotries...  I imagine that La Meute are more dangerous in physical terms; while they certainly have their share of geezers, they also have some of those lethal young men combining bigotry and raging testosterone.

But both groups are just incredibly reactionary in the sense of wanting to return to an imaginary world where others knew their place.

Make Duplessis great again? Make the Orange Order great again? Mannaggia!!!!

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

To clarify:  When I said anglophones "brought it on themselves", I didn't mean Bill 101 was a punishment.  I meant that anglophones had caused the conditions that made Bill 101 necessary and that because of that they should accept it.   I'd agree that, if allophones are allowed to take French language instruction for free, anglophones should do the same.  

And the "pasta" incident(we all know the Eaton's thing happened, btw, and that to have the ring of truth it has incidents like that had to have been common) is an argument for requiring the OLF to carry out its mandate in a more-tacftul and less-heavy handed way, which can be done without the anglophone minority carrying on it's pointless grudge about Bill 101.  Were that community to finally say "ok, we admit that steps were needed and still ARE needed to protect French in Quebec, and we accept that nobody should be doing anything to try to reduce its usage.  The francophone community had and continues to have every right to be concerned about the preservation of what it seeks to preserve", I'm thinking that community would be much more likely to listen to what you had to say on the matter.  As it is, there are still way too many anglophones who make it sound like francophones were always making a big deal over nothing and that the real problem is General Wolfe was an old softie.

And it was telling about how Monsieur 17 turned into a sentient pamphlet for the "Equality" Party in his second post.  I seriously doubt francophones could have done anything THAT terrible to the guy.

lagatta4

Even stranger with pietro, though I have met that kind of guy. They actually did experience discrimination and bigotry as children of immigrants, but their anger is misdirected. Absolutely, I think "immigrants" to Québec or even Québec anglos ill-taught in school should have access to francisation. And there are absurdities such as not providing adequate care in English to poor, elderly English-speakers in the townships - people who have never been anything but farmers or workers.  But while such injustices should be protested, they are not a reason to be angryphones - wilful destroyers of Québec and its culture.

Monsieur 17 strikes me as simply full of it, of macho hubris and himself.

I'm still imagining little Potemkin villages for the Angryphones and La Meute. They could have pitched battles every Saturday night. Would they meet for a pint afterwards?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

lagatta4 wrote:

Monsieur 17 strikes me as simply full of it, of macho hubris and himself.

He sounds like either your stereotypical "all injustices will instantly vanish 'come the revolution' " Old Left type(I can already picture him telling LGBTQ Cubans to just shut up and wait their term back in the Seventies or Eighties) or a right-wing troll who shows up in forums like this, starts out by pretending to be more leftie than though-then drops the mask when he thinks everybody's guard is down.

Goddess knows what he'd post in the feminist forum if he showed up there. 

cco

For the record, all immigrants to Québec have access to francisation courses, including anglophones. Anglos who are born here can, of course, go to French schools, or even take French courses at English schools. If you grew up in Saskatchewan and moved here at age 40, you might have to pay for classes, though -- I'm not sure. But, then, higher education is cheaper here than in any other province.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

cco wrote:

For the record, all immigrants to Québec have access to francisation courses, including anglophones. Anglos who are born here can, of course, go to French schools, or even take French courses at English schools. If you grew up in Saskatchewan and moved here at age 40, you might have to pay for classes, though -- I'm not sure. But, then, higher education is cheaper here than in any other province.

You can send your kids to French school,true. You could choose to go to a French university,true. But for those who went to English school and didn't go to university,for a variety of reasons including not being able to get a loan or bursary , taking up an intensive French course is not free unless you're a new comer to the province.

French courses at English schools are a joke. Just like French education at English schools in general.

Unless your parents were smart enough to enroll you into a French school when you were a kid,anglos French education is extremely limited and consists of 1 hour of study per day. This is why you have Québécois anglos out there who cannot speak French well or at all and almost all those people are illiterate in written French.

Homegrown anglos are not eligible for free intensive French courses newly arrived immigrants have available to them.

These free courses should be available to ALL,not exclusively new arrivals. It's not right nor is it fair and it keeps a lot of anglos at a disadvantage for a good job in Québec.

pietro_bcc

I went to english schooling in Quebec, while we did have french classes and had to pass the same exams as those in the french system its insufficient. You learn how to comprehend french really well, you learn how to write decently, but you don't learn how to hold a conversation like someone who is actually a francophone. Even though english is my 3rd language, I'm way more fluent than in french.

All Quebecers should have access to free post-schooling french classes, no reason not to. That's actual promotion of the french language.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

pietro_bcc wrote:
I went to english schooling in Quebec, while we did have french classes and had to pass the same exams as those in the french system its insufficient. You learn how to comprehend french really well, you learn how to write decently, but you don't learn how to hold a conversation like someone who is actually a francophone. Even though english is my 3rd language, I'm way more fluent than in french. All Quebecers should have access to free post-schooling french classes, no reason not to. That's actual promotion of the french language.

Absolutely.  Does anybody know why the PQ didn't just set that up as soon as they took power?  It would have been a beautifully conciliatory step, the vast majority of Anglos would gladly have signed up, and there'd have been no possible downside.

lagatta4

Two veteran newscasters (Radio-Canada and CBC) interview Gabriel Nadeau-Dubois, QS MNA for Gouin (my riding)

A good interview by Anne-Marie Dusseault, veteran Radio-Canada newscaster, with Gabriel Nadeau Dubois

https://www.facebook.com/GNadeauDubois/videos/vb.398795723813002/454265301599377/?type=2&theater

And with veteran CBC newscaster Peter Mansbridge:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLObZQZR6ow

lagatta4

Here is an article by someone I know in QC about the way the "Black Block actions" were used to discredit a much larger peaceful anti-fascist - anti-racist demonstration:

http://www.pressegauche.org/Mobilisation-contre-La-Meute-preter-flanc-au...

It would be worth translating it into English, but unfortunately I don't have the time right now (too much other work)...

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..i use several browsers for doing different things. a chromium browser will translate that lagatta. not perfectly but close enough. i come across several languages in my wonderings and it has made my life better. :)  

..from that post

quote:

We expected to meet La Meute, but arrived there, the place is rather deserted, only a few tourists walk there in addition to hundreds of protesters. A rumor spreads that clashes between anti-fascists and La Meute activists would take place behind the Parliament building near Complexe G. A large part of the present crowd moves towards the place on the boulevard René-Lévesque and found himself blocking the way for the members of La Meute who had made an appointment in the underground parking lot of the Marie-Guyart building. In short, songs of victory resonate among the demonstrators. The anti-globalization activist Jaggi Singh animates the crowd with songs and some information confirming that The Pack is trapped in the parking lot of the government building. Members of the Bloc Blacks observed the situation without intervening. Passengers are asked to move in such a way as to obstruct all access to the underground parking lot. It is at this moment that things seem to be spoiled.

The intervention of the Black Bloc justify the police intervention

A group of antifascists moved towards the back of the G building on Jacques-Parizeau Street and the throwing of pyrotechnic objects multiplied. Nothing very threatening, but the police use this event to justify a more robust intervention. The presence of the group on Jacques-Parizeau is declared illegal. A little later, it was the crowd present on the rue Louis-Alexandre-Tachereau who was put in a situation of illegality. Jaggi Singh was arrested and the anti-riot deployed.

Jaggi Singh was released a few moments after his arrest. On a message posted on his Facebook page, he indicates that the police forces identified himself as "  Michel Goulet, a former hockey player of the Quebec Nordiques lodging in the Coliseum . He was released in the parking lot of a gas station, which speaks volumes about the seriousness of this arrest, which is more intimidated than justice.

Most media applaud La Meute's sobriety and blame all anti-racists

"Hundreds of pacifists in the shadow of the breakers" and "  The gathering of La Meute ends without addicts  " title Le Soleil. "Chaos in the City" and "  Day of Violence in Quebec City,  " says the Journal de Québec, with explicit photos to support. It was pointed out that journalists were assaulted. The spokesman of La Meute had a good game to bring the blame of violence to the left. It appears that acts of vandalism on businesses have been committed. Passers-by were targeted as fascists. Prime Minister Couillard denounced the violence, as did the leaders of the PQ and the CAQ. The media has hardly shone for their relevance. Radio-Québec journalists have put a great deal of zeal on the leaders of La Meute. The leader of La Meute was interviewed for more than seven minutes on Radio-Québec television where he explained that the Pack was an organization respectful of the established order. He promised to return to Quebec City and occupy the streets. No questions were asked about racist and xenophobic discourses repeated by the organization.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Most media applaud La Meute's sobriety

​"They didn't show up drunk this time!"?

lagatta4

Nah, they went to local pubs (brasseries) to celebrate their victory later on...

There is a weird kind of racism in places where there are very few people of other races or ethnicities. At a certain point the strongest vote for the FN in France was in Alsatian villages where there were no Black or Brown people, and alas probably no longer any Jews.

There are Jews in Alsace now, and very proud communities, but mostly in the cities such as  Strasbourg and Colmar.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
There is a weird kind of racism in places where there are very few people of other races or ethnicities.

I'm certainly not endorsing them or supporting them, but I would guess that it exactly has to do with the fact that they've really nothing to (irrationally) fear.  And I assume they want to keep it that way.

But it does sort of look silly, when a whole community bands together to ensure that none of their women will ever don a burqa, even as their brownest citizen is some guy whose father was part Mexican.

lagatta4

Well in Québec, also MANY people who are part First Nations. I was working in Trois Rivières for a few days last year and many people were stunningly FN.

And as in Mexico and other Latin American countries, some Métis people are among the worst racists. Sad.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

lagatta4 wrote:

Nah, they went to local pubs (brasseries) to celebrate their victory later on...

There is a weird kind of racism in places where there are very few people of other races or ethnicities. At a certain point the strongest vote for the FN in France was in Alsatian villages where there were no Black or Brown people, and alas probably no longer any Jews.

There are Jews in Alsace now, and very proud communities, but mostly in the cities such as  Strasbourg and Colmar.

I'd have compared it to being an antisemite in  Poland after 1945, or a white supremacist in my birth state of Oregon at one time(black people were legally barred from living in Oregon between 1859 and 1926, and if found within the state at that time, were given eight hours to leave.  (Supposedly the punishment for missing the deadline was just imprisonment).

pietro_bcc

New Quebec poll from Leger /change from last Leger poll.
http://www.leger360.com/admin/upload/publi_pdf/La%20politique%20au%20Qu%...

Liberals: 32% (+1)
CAQ: 28% (=)
PQ: 22% (=)
QS: 12% (-3)
Others: 6% (+2)

progressive17 progressive17's picture

I read about this poll today in Le Journal de Montreal (sorry this keyboard does not do accents) They actually had the Conservative Party of Quebec  at some 3%. If there were federalists who trusted the CAQ's "neutrality" on the sovereignty issue, they might shift to this new version of a very old name in Quebec.

Although it does not please me to say this, it looks like even more good news for the Liberal Party of Quebec.

pietro_bcc

You're right, I read about this poll on wikipedia which has the "others" at 6%, but in actual fact there is 3% who support the Quebec Conservative Party and 3% who support another party.

Edit: A corrected result would be

Liberals: 32% (+1)
CAQ: 28% (=)
PQ: 22% (=)
QS: 12% (-3)
QCon: 3% (=)
Other: 3% (+2)

lagatta4

An important letter in Le Devoir by Québec solidaire MNAs Gabriel Nadeau Dubois and Manon Massé, and Option nationale leader Sol Zanetti speaking out against PQ leader JF Lisée connecting the welcome to (mostly) Haitian asylum-seekers and insufficient care for seniors in long-term care facilities:

http://www.ledevoir.com/politique/quebec/506834/en-stigmatisant-les-dema...

Poor Gérald Godin is rolling over in his grave...

progressive17 progressive17's picture

The good thing is that the PQ and the CAQ want to split the La Meute/Nazi vote. This should be good for the Left. And maybe even the PLQ.

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