babble is rabble.ca's discussion board but it's much more than that: it's an online community for folks who just won't shut up. It's a place to tell each other — and the world — what's up with our work and campaigns.
United electoral front to beat the Liberals?
June 20, 2012 - 7:48pm
*
Pierre Curzi (left PQ last year to sit as an independent) called for a united progressive sovereignist front to beat Charest, and there's now a petition to that effect with 10,000 signatures. Here is Québec Solidaire's reply:
Beat the Liberals, yes of course, but above all, build a progressive Québec!
I don't understand why anyone in Quebec votes Liberal in the first place, and especially for that jerk Charest. Some historical significance?
Well for starters, anyone who hasn't wanted to vote for a sovereignist party in the past several decades had little other choice.
Ah - slaps head! - of course. My memory is just awful.
Actually, there was the Equality Party-- but slapping one's head turned out to be the better option.
based on the language issues of the 80s and 90s, there's a strong residual wariness toward the pq among many many immigrant families, who in quebec are often called allophones, because neither english nor french are the first language, but usually choose english as their preferred language of daily use. these, the anglophones, older generations who continue to identify strongly with the brand, the aspirationals (those who want what they think the wealthy have), and the wealthy themselves account for much of the plq strong support in all those districts around montreal. in the rest of the province - where the caq could really hurt them, the plq is a moderately conservative, pro-industry party, favored by the petit bourgeois and this segment of the population (circa 20%) who just thinks that their fellow quebecois are un-industrious, un-informed, and irrational. this would be the typical conservative voter anywhere in north america, and the cpc-held federal seats, for instance, are only the most fertile ground for these.
looks like the election could well be coming sooner than most expected. http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/quebec-canada/politique-quebecoise/201...
september 4th. i can't remember another instance when a report like this was wrong, so we have to assume that this is the cabinet's plan at the moment, and only some sort of issue will change it. i'm not sure i get the timing but, knowing charest, it's a fair guess that he's trying to outrun some sort of corruption report or something, and possibly banking on some sort of chaotic colleges situation.
will be annoying campaigning in the baking august heat, that's for sure, but it's still an excellent time to visit montreal, for all you folks with vacation days in the bank.
Sigh...I'm prepared to vote PQ...I usually vote QS but Charest has to go.
Unfortunately,Marois is not someone I trust...she's a flip flopper and she's not a progressive.
The problem is that as much as the Liberals have to go,the worse case scenario would be a CAQ government.
yeah, i'm voting qs for sure, but i'd probably vote pq if i lived in a marginal district.
like as little faith as i have in marois, she's certainly the best of a bad lot. and actually, i'm not really that worried about another referendum, i can't see it happening until after the 2015 federal election, and the results there will pretty much solidify the popular feeling one way or the other: another harper win would mean as slam dunk conditions as possible for a 'yes' vote, while a mulcair ndp win would probably sink the 'yes' side so much that the pq wouldn't even want to raise the subject publicly until a later mandate, for fear that a third loss against a popular mulcair would end the movement for another generation. either way, i'll probably be in the majority opinion, thus neutralizing the one major issue i have with a marois premiership.
My support for sovereignty has multiplied 100 times since May 2011...If there was a referendum today,I would vote Yes.
If by any chance Harper were to be re-elected,any affection for Canada I may have will be gone forever...
The real issue of sovereignty lies with the fact that even King Stephen has called Quebec 'a nation'
So if he means it and we really are a nation,we don't need a referendum to act as a nation and have complete control of every and all policies,especially domestic policies AND taxation.
Québec needs to function as a nation and as a nation,we should repeal all of the Harper policies we strongly oppose and if Canada (the feds) doesn't like it, they can kiss our ass.
Ironically, the PQ's demand for a "united progressive sovereigntist front" against the PLQ is based on the federal Liberal demands for "strategic voting" on the part of "progressives" against the Harpercrites. In both cases, it simply means that the smaller, more left forces should vote for the larger, more conservative force, with the larger force(the PQ in this case, the Liberals in the original)doing nothing more than agreeing to let the existing MP's, MLA's, or in this case the single QS MNA survive the next election.
It's astounding that the PQ things QS would fall for this.
curzi is a loose canon and he'll easily lose his seat next election, should he decide even to run again. it's a problem with the pq that they tend to get self-important cranks as candidates as often as they do smooth, eloquent, high-value parliamentary performers.
as for the sovereignty, no point in getting into it in this thread, but it'd probably be pretty tough for me to forgive canadians for another harper majority, when there's such a good alternative. while supporting an independent quebec (something i never thought i would do, but now find myself favoring more and more) is a path that would eviscerate the ndp at the federal level, it would definitely force an alliance of the lpc and ndp, and could even lead to a better result in some likelihood of alternance of governments in canada.
by the way, as a prediction, i'm going with marois for a majority or a near-miss minority. stephen harper is about as unpopular in quebec as george w bush was (in quebec) during the twilight of his rule in america, and it's clear as day that a major portion of the pq campaign (i'd say 1/4-1/3 of all campaign focus) will be promising to oppose harper and that. tie that in with charest-fatigue, plq corruption and malfeasance issues, and a caq that is likely to siphon more than stun, and marois' path seems pretty clear, no matter what the polls may say.
Your anger and disappointment are completely justified.
The only real argument for not backing sovereignty I could make to you(and I really hesitate to do so, since your grievances are so deep and so valid)would be solidarity with the Left in Canada.
At this point, if Quebec did leave, it seems quite likely that what remained of Canada would turn, politically, into Greater Albertastan, with a permanent, granitic right-wing majority in the House. Harper would be PM-for-life(possibly to be replaced by Ezra Levant or someone worse if he did retire or die at some point). I'm not sure if even resistance to corporate/ultra-"Christian" dominance would be possible in such a scenario-I'd like to THINK it would, but it'd be tough, and I'm not sure it would be possible to set up liberated zones anywhere. Remains to be seen, I guess.
This is the same thing that would happen in the UK if Scotland achieved independence.
Still, I can't blame you for wanting to get shut of the whole sad business.
I'd recommend, though, that a sovereign Quebec work out an alliance with Atlantic Canada. That might be a sustainable beachhead against the forces of repression, reaction, hatred and fear.
Since many of the people of Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, PEI and New Brunswick are of Celtic ancestry, such an alliance(bolstered by the francophones of New Brunswick)could have something of the resonance of the "Auld Alliance" between Scotland and France prior to 1707, and of the alliances between France and the Irish at various points in history. the FN's of the region would need to be recognized as equal and sovereign partners in such an alliance as well.
Someone on P&P tonight speculated the election will be September 4, and Pauline Marois shot off a reply saying a summer campaign was - can't remember the exact word, maybe 'cynical' or 'manipulative'???
I think she used both
Regardless of what the future holds for Quebec, I'm staying here on the north shore.
that would be great, but the language issue would be incredibly difficult to overcome - there are strains of nationalism, often at odds each with the other. if i am a nationalist (and i'm not), i'd be a left-nationalist, basically just wanting quebec independent so that the rest of canada wouldn't weigh us down and speak in our name things that most people vigorously oppose. i've only recently come around to the more linguistic turn, as i find myself more and more disinclined to accept the basic legitimacy of anglophone grievances. i think everyone in the progressive world got a sense of the immense chasm that exists between the basic cultural firmaments and promises of the social contract in quebec viz the same in the rest of canada. that was where it all really turned for me, where you have a range of media opinions in french quebec - none denying the basic question of the rights of students to protest - versus a monolithically hostile anglophone response everywhere in canada. the neatness of the contrast between the two sets of basic values of community and societal organization matched the neatness of the break that i and others like me made from the rest of canada. and really, when you think about it, on everything from prisons to postage stamps (the queen!) my values line up like 5% with those of majority canada and about 75% with those of majority quebec.
that's a basis for nationalism i think quite like that of my solidairiste compatriots but hardly anything at all like that of the hardliners in the saguenay and up the north coast. so someone like me would be immensely pleased to see newfoundland join a greater quebec alliance, but that's something that, post-independence, just wouldn't really fly in many hardcore pro-independence circles.
none of that touching on the upcoming election, naturally. though i guess it could come back into play if marois wins the election and canadians follow suit by returning a harper-led conservative government to federal office. at that point, i can't guarantee i'd vote against an independent quebec, it put me into a serious period of soul-searching.
love is free..
I'm not a nationalist...I'm an anglo...But I am a soft sovereignist (as to say,I'm open to giving Canada a chance)
I agree with you about anglo media including that of Québec anglo media....They are,for the most part,rabidly intolerant and push an agenda....I've left links to CTV Montreal at babble on more than one occasion to display its vitriol (especially against the student movement and QS)
I also agree about anglo grievances...In Québec,there isn't any difficulty in enjoying services in English..Whereas in most provinces,francophones do not have that luxury.
And it is a joke when a community with 8% of the population expects the face of Québec to reflect theirs..Entitlement at its best.
These people can always move.
Having said all that,I must say that my 'soft' sovereignist status is hardening up and Canada is running out of chances -- quickly.
Québec's anglo media strikes again...
http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/postscript-planning-your-summer-election-1.87...
Complete with the mug shot and rap sheet of Amir Khadir's daughter....(according to this opinion Khadir is described as a 'radical left wing seperatist)
This type of journalism is embarrassingly appalling.
Wow. This would be a very different country if we all took that view. Just to be clear in BC a total of 15,325 people speak French at home out of a population of 4,074,385 or about a 1/3 of 1% of the population. We also have 639,380 people who speak other than one of the two official languages at home. Yes it is true that when it comes to most retail outlets it is easier to find services in mandarin than in french. Depending on the provincial agency, service is delivered in other languages not just English but because of the extremely low numbers of french speakers not all civil servants are required to learn French. I did not think English was a requirement for Quebec civil servants but I don't know that for sure. By the way all federal services are available in both official languages despite not coming close to your 8% threshold of intolerance. Most of us believe that is fair what is your point anyways?
http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/hlt/97-555/T402-en...
In Québec,the majority language spoken not just for so called 'pur laines' but the language for most immigrants is French.
You hear alot of whining from English speaking people that Québec is 'racist' and nonsense like that because they went to the metro and had to speak French to the person in the booth (for example)
It doesn't take much energy just to do so in French.
I'm sure if I went to Toronto and took the metro there or went to a convenience store or whatever and spoke French,I would be told to speak English...because,for the most part,they don't understand.
Would this make Toronto racist?...Of course not...But here in Montreal,you hear of these stories everyday and it makes you wonder what the hell they are doing living in Québec in the first place.
Most anglos in Quebec can and do speak French but some refuse to or simply cannot.
But if you want English services in Québec,especially government services,you can.
There's nothing for English people to complain about here but you hear it and read it in Anglo media all the time.
English speaking people in Québec should atleast make an effort...Most do but alot don't.
I have tried using both English and my really bad high school French in various parts of Quebec. The results for both scenarios are mixed. Some people don't like their language being brutalized and others find it nice that at least I tried to speak French. When I speak first in English some people respond in a friendly manner and others get pissed that I don't speak French. There is no way of knowing which response one will get.
I do find that as a rule people all across the country are pretty friendly even when there are language barriers.
That's the thing about Québec...Personally,I never had a problem..9 times out of 10 if you speak French and they recognize the English accent,they will immediately start speaking English to you.
I think the majority just like it if there is an effort.
As I said,if you read,watch or listen to English media,every second day there's some horror story of 'bigotry' and 'intolerance'.
Granted,there are some people who fit that description but that's a very small minority.
I will admit,being bilingual,I've never broken out my French while visiting other parts of Canada so I don't know what the response would be.
I imagine,that alot of people may not understand the language.
What I was trying to say is that in Québec,you'll find more people giving you the effort to talk to you in English..I think it would be more difficult for a francophone out West,for example.
I'm sure most would be polite...But francophones will have more trouble finding someone who can speak their language.....There's not many places on the planet where English is not spoken.
smithee, that's totally my view. i've two brothers and we're on this continuum - i prefer to use french in daily life, my one brother prefers english but uses french as the default (and works for a francophone elected official), and the other brother uses english almost exclusively (works in the mile-end and consorts almost exclusively with anglophones, etc), that is, unless and until he's absolutely unable to communicate his point, at a restaurant, for instance. personally, i find the notion that quebec society should take pains to accommodate the second brother to be offensive bordering on outrageous. i mean, your anglophone dude will walk into a shop on rachel street and order in english, then, getting a response in french, just take it as a slight, like "oh, you know what i mean, you're just trying to make your point about my language. well, this is canada, and we speak english here." i've seen this interaction countless times, often multiple times in a single day, it's just a basic feature of life in montreal, which is kind of annoying. as for anglophones' abilities to speak french, it's really variable. i know people who grew up right next door to each other off queen mary or in ndg even who've wildly different skills in french - people who literally cannot speak a word who went to all the same schools as people who speak as natives.
anyway, the montreal anglophones' francophobia is nothing new, there's a long history there, nor is their making common cause with anti-quebec cranks, whose universalist arguments against this or that aspect of quebec culture betray a shocking lack of familiarity with every day life in the province.
anyway, maybe we should keep this thread to the discussion of the election. here, for instance, courtesy of hugo pilon-larose and la presse are the most hotly contested ridings last time around:
On that chart, are the margins always PLQ margins over the PQ, and vice versa?
Or do any of those results reflect narrow PLQ and PQ margins over OTHER parties?
And what does the emergence of the CAQ since the last election do to the possible outcomes in those two lists of ridings?
I can see the CAQ winning Riviere de Loup and St-Jean. (I hope not but I have a bad feeling)
the adq was smashed last time around, and the pq won comfortably in gouin against the co-leader of qs, françoise david. the only weird one on here is rivière du loup-témiscouaga, which is a newish riding (the new boundaries were set last year) and encompasses all (i think) of what used to be mario dumont's longtime stronghold, the pq won that one is a freakish sort of by-election, and that one should probably go back to the caq. it's sort of strange, in that light, that another freakish pq by-election gain, argenteuil, didn't figure as a likely danger spot, as that one's pretty surely going back to the liberals, barring some serious vote-splitting on the right. that's a long way of saying yes, the margins are the two parties, plq and pq, each against the other, and that this time around, the caq figures to be a major factor.
with caq support likely coming in much higher than adq support last time around, qs support likely coming in ~10% higher than last time, and ~30% of the electorate still fluid/undecided, this figures to be one of the craziest unpredictable elections in the province's history, or at least, so everyone agrees. any one of the three big parties could win anything from a minority to a majority government. solidaire, at the moment, is targeting 4 seats, channeling everything they have into mercier, gouin, rosemont, and sainte-marie--saint-jacques. my guess is that if the party is at 13-15% provincewide, they'll easily take those seats, and if the plq/pq vote splits right, could snag several others that are completely off the radar right now. a lot depends on amir or françoise being allowed to participate in the debate.
QS winning 4 seats would send a huge message..I hope they do...But I'm worried about the CAQ.
A CAQ government would be bad news for Québec.
I suspect it would be a one-term wonder, like the return of the Union Nationale to power in 1966.