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Babble culture 2
June 17, 2012 - 3:06pm
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I agree with the principles behind unionist's post and I do think that pledges can be helpful.
I miss Ottawa Observer from here-- I know many others do as well -- not that I am trying to connect that to anything specific.
I don't think that it is just about bannings-- I left here for a good three months completely and was barely here for a while before-- I was not banned but I did not feel I had a lot of choice either. The atmosphere was toxic. As well I had a serious number of clashes with one of the Mods.
I'd be lying if I suggested that I think things are forgotten and my return has lasted quite a while but it is still tentative because I would not stick around if the same type of stuff came up like that again. Thankfully it hasn't and I'm still here.
One thing I would suggest is that flare-ups happen. I think those not involved (moderator or not) should have as their first directive a calming approach-- choosing sides and coming in with a big stick usually makes it worse. I think there are some who are better at calming waters than others and that can also vary depending on who is involved. Before bystanders jump into a spat (be they moderators or not) they should ask themselves if what they are about to write is going to cool things down or heat things up. Sometimes I get the sense that there suddenly is this other agenda trying to prove how progressive or sensitive and all that the bystander is and they jump in to prove their point and turn a small spat that could have died away into an all-out flame war all to prove that bystander was the hero the righteous one etc. It is not just moderators who have made this mistake. But it is fair to say when a mod makes that mistake it is more serious and harder to come back from.
I also think that sarcasm is fine as a rhetorical device but it should not be mixed with moderation-- it usually makes things worse.
Pot. Kettle.
A disgraceful comment which calls into question your fitness as a moderator.
Wilf - who exactly would you like to see as moderator? What are your criteria? There's a tradition here that when babblers flounce, that's it - their business, and they're always welcome to return if and when they wish. OO was not banned. What exactly is stopping her from posting here if she wants to? Feelings hurt? I've been there and felt that. When I joined, I had to face down an overwhelming onslaught of "NDP, my party, right or wrong" - and condemnation for my view that it was stupid and unprincipled of the ONDP to expel Buzz Hargrove. I survived. Had I left, I would not have expected ornately-worded apologies and pleas to return.
You are presenting certain events and incidents as if they were characteristic and defining of the situation here. I strongly disagree.
Always nice to return to babble to see an active dicussion happening about babble.
In the spirit of this thread - trying to improve the culture of babble - please stop.
I feel community here even if you don't, Dibbler. Every community has its miscreants, though.
For context: the previous thread.
It's so great not to be a mod, mostly because I never have to read these endless meta threads again if I don't want to - and for the most part, I don't want to, and I practically never do. No more do I have to read constant carping and denunciations of every move and every post every moderator writes.
It's changed babble culture for me in amazing ways! Now I just participate in threads I enjoy, I take breaks from babble when I don't feel like posting or when I'm annoyed at something someone says or does or at a decision a mod makes that I don't agree with (and yes, they do make decisions that I don't agree with sometimes), and frankly, it's liberating!
I guess you have to be a former mod to fully appreciate that. :D But I am happy to share the secret to my babble freedom and enjoyment with those non-mods who have never been mods and probably would be hiding under their kitchen tables if they had to spend even a week moderating this place.
Hint: you don't need to hang on to every wrong everyone has ever committed on babble forever. You can let go! You can enjoy the moment! You can leave it to departed, unbanned babblers to decide whether they feel like coming back or not instead of lobbying for the entire staff of rabble to go crawling to them in deepest humility and begging for them to come back.
In the meantime, how's your garden looking? There's a thread for that! What's happening in Montreal? There's a thread for that! Did Andrea Horwath or Thomas Mulcair breathe? Hey, there's a thread for that too!
Enjoy! :)
There are two issues I'd like to address.
The first was brought up in the previous thread:
For most of the life of this board, the kind of liberal-imperialism kropotkin refers to was not an issue on babble. This has changed in the last year and a half, first with the NATO attack on Libya, and now with the calls for intervention in Syria. Not that nobody ever spouted imperialist talking points on babble before this, but there wasn't the same defense of the Responsibility to Protect style liberal-imperialism as in the current period. This liberal-imperialism is leading me to avoid reading the Syria threads.
The other issue is that of uncritical support of the NDP, or more specifically, uncritical support of Mulcair. My personal view is that Mulcair is a right-winger, but the pro-Mulcair attitude in the NDP and Mulcair threads has created a stifling atmosphere such that with one exception, I've not posted in these threads since the NDP leadership race, out of fear of being personally attacked by other babblers.
A Farmpunk sighting!!
Wilf, if you can't contribute anything positive to this thread (100+ posts and you still haven't as far as I've seen) perhaps you should bow out of the discussion altogether, hmm?
I find it tends to bounce off layers of gaseous cloud cover insulating the superego from the sun's rays, Wilf.
Just so long as occasional merciful beheadings aren't scrapped in favour of Tha PILLOWS!, then I'm ok with it, I guess. Is there anyone else up there we could talk to?
Wilf and Fidel, I'm trying to understand what you are both saying about Babble culture and how we could improve it.
Wilf, are you suggesting that all bannings of babblers, excluding trolls, should be rescinded?
Fidel, what are your suggestions for making Babble a more pleasant place?
I think that as long as there are virutal lynchings and gang-ups over the most petty issues, some number of people will be discouraged from babbling. If they want to make it a class room with strict rules, then the rules should be consistent and enforced with an even hand. But I don't see that here. I sometimes find myself abandoned to my own devices with fending off bizarro accusations of racism and trying to avoid insulting Homer Simpson and his unique notion of what a banana republic is.
@ Left Turn
I don't minimize your concern, but there are just as many people who get flak from the opposite direction.
And regarding those whose politics are REALLY different? Well, again, that's a matter of perspective. I don't know what the official interpretation of the policy is, but I think one has to weigh someone's input and the level of discourse. I don't mind hearing the opinions of someone who supports something some of us might consider imperialism, so long as the discussion isn't derailed, or turns into a debate on the basic question of imperialism.
I think it is important to know why people think what they think, especially if I disagree with them.
There are plenty of people here I disagree with on some issues, I still think that it is a very worthwhile place.
Please see the previous thread for the full discussion on this point.
Those who are feeling the stress of Babble, particulary the moderators, are quite justifed in feeling stressed. You are doing an important job, a tough job, under tough conditons, condtions that may be toxic. Take care of yourselves and please accept I and most babblers do appreciate what you have done, are doing and wlli do
I have gone though somewhat similar experiences in various communities, political or social groupings, workplaces, my own "families". It was stressful feeling the group .which was so good in the past, which had done so much good in the past and was capable of doing so much good in the future, was being torn apart, made dysfuncttonal, becoming a place I did not want to go to, did not want to be part of, not by external forces, not by some "invaders" or "bad "people, some "enemy", we could unite against,and fight, but by internal forces, by sisters and brothers who for inexplicable reasons not only couldn't get on, but who seemed to be doomed to fight endess meaningless deeply wounding battles amongst themseves, battles which hurt me and much I loved. What was worst of all for me in some of these "civil wars" "family feuds" was when some of my family, indeed it seemed most of my family , the people whom I interacted with on a regular basis in these groups that were so important to me, came to see me an enemy, as a person who needed to be challenged, , fired expelled, driven out. CRUSHED.
. At some points, in some of these civil wars, family feuds, I found the rot was spreading to me, the endless conflicts were changing me, I was beoming phyically and emotionally and spiritually damaged.
I have no magic solution, no silver bullet,.. Again know what you are doing is appeciated, but the first priority has to be yourself and your health. take care.
Then there is this kind of disingenuous statement that on its face seems innocuous but I believe leads to an unhealthy tone. It doesn't matter that you say, "I don't minimize your concern", when you follow it with a but and then a minimization of the concerns raised. Some people find inadvertent slips into dominant culture language a trigger and others of us find rhetorical devices to be triggers. When you do that to my posts my first emotional response is to write a snarky response. I am getting better at not doing that. I would rather people just stated their objections forthrightly instead of excusing yourself first and then stating the objections. The first few words sound like they are meant to be conciliatory but they are not they are just you telling us how good you are before you tell us how bad our ideas are.
Thx Left Turn for your thoughts. I too have noticed a major change in that aspect of the culture. But is also institutional.
According to babble the political spectrum in Canada goes from Layton to Harper. I presume that the Greens are included but I suspect that many Green supporters find this place very uninviting. Having spent many years being disgusted by the growing "cult of the leader" in Canadian politics including the emphasis on Jack, especially in the last two campaigns he ran in. I think there is nothing progressive about the cult of the leader but that is just me. However that emphasis on the cult of the leader is a central part of the landscape of babble and that is the prevue of Rabble.ca not the users of this chat site.
kropotkin:
I recognize and respect that Left Turn feels that way, as I said.
I agree about flak, though I see it from a different direction, and I feel differently about the issue generally - which is what I went on to say.
Frankly I think acknowledging the other person's position as valid is a little better than if I had just said I am absolutely right and you are absolutely wrong. If you have a different approach, well again, I respect that. But I prefer to speak my own words in my own way.
And it is certainly the best thing I can think of to do other than shutting up entirely; and that option doesn't seem entirely honest to me.
And yes, I have noticed that you don't seem to like me talking to you; you might want to know that there are plenty of occasions when I have taken the dishonest route and declined to say anything simply out of deference to that.
I wonder if any change in culture can take place without structural changes.
Most definitely, Caissa.
I think if enough of us work to be non-combative, without watering down our passion for issues or our disagreements, babble will become perhaps a more open and welcoming place. I would never want a touchy-feely group-hug babble, but a less nasty one, definitely.
Babble isn't Facebook. Even if we had the resources to make babble more technologically competitive with other social media, it would still be different. Not to say that there aren't a bazillion necessary upgrades that moderators (and babblers) have lobbyed for since long before I was hired, but if I'm interpreting 'structure' correctly, I think the change has to come from all participants.
Oh, and peterjcassidy, thanks for the shot in the arm - made me smile.
Regarding structure, I was kind of wondering what you meant as well - a few things spring to mind when I think of it.
While I think you can do some things with that it only goes so far. People aren't entirely controlled by their environment, after all, and we do ultimately choose and are responsible for what we do and do not do.
Here's hoping, anyway.
By "structure" I was just musing out loud. But here is what I was thinking, Babble has a set of rules both stated and unstated. I'm simply wondering what effect the environment has on the culture.
I guess we should just leave the thread for those who want to clarify their loyalty and affection for the mods and leave it at that. Constructive suggestions that include ways that moderation could be done slightly differently are apparently not going to be taken well.
So the allowed sub discussion topics are 1) praise for the mods 2) assertions that anything wrong with the culture cannot be at all related to the people who are the leaders in that culture and must be presumed to be at the feet of anyone who challenges or is not favoured by the mods 3) the fault can only be with those who do not agree with the powers that be.
I got the message. Nothing more to see here.
And I just noticed Mod rhymes with God. My bad.
@ Sean
My actual arguments about this space aside (and I have made a few), one important thing I see here is that moderators need to be able exercise their authority, and I base that opinion as much on situations when I have disagreed with them as when I have agreed. That, and realizing that all noble intent and solidarity aside, they need to be able to intervene when things go wrong.
... and that goes double in a playground that is dedicated to the collective ideal, and challenging and questioning authority.
(edit)
Remember what precipitated these threads? A moderator who had had enough and was declaring work to rule. Let's not let that get lost in this meta ramble.
And I have seen a couple of personal comments about people and their ability to do their jobs. How is that in any way appropriate or helpful, or in line with our new pledge? Do we need a primer in how to use PM buttons, or is it just more fun to do it in front of everyone?
My deepest apologies for turning you into a dishonest man. Mea culpa mea culpa mea culpa. My bad my bad my bad.
you can't help yourself I know but it still annoys me.
Heh. Well, job well done everyone. I don't see any point in letting this nasty thread stay open. Anyone who will rue, once this thread is closed, the opportunity to snipe at moderators or each other -- let me reassure you that I have little doubt your chance will come soon enough.
Happy belated Fathers Day!