Debrief from "Should babble have a POC/FN only forum?" thread.

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Maysie Maysie's picture
Debrief from "Should babble have a POC/FN only forum?" thread.


Maysie Maysie's picture

I'm asking that all posters to this thread be people who identify as POC, FN or mixed-race.

The thread I'm referring to, "Should babble have a POC/FN only forum?", is [url=]h...

The more I read the thread, especially re-reading it this morning, the more I felt that babble [b]does[/b] need a space such as described in the link that Makwa posted.

One forum, for any topic whatsoever (the election, movies, events, whatever!), for only POC/FN people and mixed-race people to talk about, share our perspectives, argue, disagree.

Yesterday, and for a long while, I was on the fence, given the realities of who is out there, but I'm now leaning on the Yes side.

If we build it, will they come? [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]


BCG one question -- what is mixed-race defined as? Is it by colour of ones skin or can it be a "merger" of 2 different faiths?

Maysie Maysie's picture

I'm not going to define mixed race, as nobody, IMO, has the authority to do so.

But my musings on the topic include:
* If you move in the world, and experience the world as someone who is mixed race.
* If your family (biological, family of origin, whatever) could be described as mixed race AND you identify as mixed race.

I respectfully ask that no other questions of this kind be asked in this thread and that this space is maintained for POC, FN people and mixed race people. Thank you.

Le T Le T's picture


Makwa Makwa's picture

I have a number of points to consider. First of all, I was quite impressed by the thread which came before. I thought that it illustrated in a very constructive way the output of the so-called 'progressive' white supremacist mindset. Demanding, dismissive, angry, and verbose. I shan't even consider bringing forth the PM forwarded by one within the fray. Needless to say, it was more of the same, so I can't imagine why is was not posted publicly. Nonetheless, is was of such little force and interest, I deleted it before I considered even remembering what it was about. There was something about being an activist among POC and being recognized, or something like that. Or whatever.

In any case. What perhaps people do not consider that it might be possible that my analysis as an FN person or simply as an educated sociologist might have a slightly different tact than others, and that it might have some value, even if it were a wee bit controversial.

Not to reiterate too much, because quite frankly, I tire of the the discussion, but my analysis of the concept known as 'racism' is not about 'attitude' nor 'behaviour' nor 'feelings' but is more focussed on historically wrought social structures, which have been built through historical power systems, and are maintained through systems of power and consequent ideologies.

In my analysis, the concept of 'race' as a socially defining event and power structure did not exist as a meaningful concept until the advent of the colonial exercise to dominate the world beyond the European shores starting at some point within the sixteenth century. Prior to that, opressed groups, including the diasporic Jewish population were managed under ideological systems which incorporated religious, social, cultural and other motifs as their conceptual rationalizations.

It wasn't until the European powers had developed the technologies to reach and to subjugate the peoples of the Africas and the Americas, and later various people of Asia that the concept of 'race' as a quasi-scientific rationale became meaningful within the construct of power.

This is the core of my analysis.

And I don't give a flying fuck what the nazis said.

I believe that I have put it forth honestly and respectfully. And quite frankly, I am getting sick and tired of being called names, and harassed, and challenged at every step. But I have come to recognize that this is the typical pattern of white supremacist awareness, whether it is the pig ignorant fuckhead who gets shitfaced and rides around in his truck or the smart guy with the MA whacking away at his computer keyboard.

Personally, I no longer believe in a POC/FN only space within babble, although I had considered the idea. It would merely whither away into obscurity while granting the vast white dominated space the opportunity to 'demonstrate' their so-called 'inclusiveness'. Much like I anticipated the 'aboriginal' space to become, yet many strong FN folks and allies have kept it alive a brimming with excellent information, and my thanks and astonishment for that - thanks for proving me wrong.

Still, I believe at this time that until the white dominated space becomes painfully aware of how cruel and diminishing they act on a regular basis, little will change.

I believe that the only genuine option for POC and FN people to really communicate is to have their own space, completely free from the dominant culture.

Until that space exists, some of us, shall continue to be difficult, and speak out, and suffer the shunning and ridicule.

Why? Oh, why the fuck not.



CMOT Dibbler

While I disagree with Makwa's contention that only POC can be racialized, no poster here should be described as loathsome or have nasty messages pushed at them through private messaging. Why do you think people want a segregated board for antiracism issues? It's because we react so badly to any mention of white privilege in discussions.
Personally, as I've said before, I don't feel that honest discourse of any sort can take place online, or be fruitful. But if anti racist activists really want a place where there particular brand of anti racism can be talked about, so be it.


-delurking, albeit much too late after the last reply...i have good reason, i'm out of the country!-

If a space for Indigenous folks, pocs and mixed-race folks is created, some people may come (and others may continue to lurk).

The issue of maintenance comes to mind - something that Makwa points to, when saying that the space would "whither away into obscurity while granting the vast white dominated space the opportunity to 'demonstrate' their so-called 'inclusiveness'."

i am not quite sure how we negotiate this. but i think struggling in lots of different ways is useful (we do have to struggle, no matter) - and creating a specific space (i hesitate to call it safe, as i don't quite believe in that) is one option - and by keeping babble in check by constantly reiterating that the space in no way is/was the result of folks-privileged-by-whiteness' inclusiveness.

i do worry, however, about what happens to other spaces within the anti-racism forum...keeping a presence in a number of places is a lot of work...keeping privilege in check, or asking people to do so for themselves is a lot of work (sigh)

so, where do things go now?

Maysie Maysie's picture

nanu, thanks for delurking again. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]

I'm also concerned about what would happen with the AR forum, since it's not hugely busy these days.

As for your question, "where do things go now?", I'm thinking we should start with a thread here and there and lead up to a single forum. Perhaps with the timing of the re-launch that would make sense.



Originally posted by nanu:
[b]-i am not quite sure how we negotiate, where do things go now?[/b]

It's similar in a way, with negotiating through an unmapped minefield, where our asses get lit up from time to time when we step on something that is disagreeable to being stepped on. But then we don't recognize folly of our own misteps, and who really has the time or patience to guide people through it without risk to themselves.