Are there other sex workers/adult entertainers who enjoy their jobs?

yay!!!hi cookies!!!hope all is well with you my friend!!

love susieXXXO

Hi all, My first post. It is my opinion that abolitionists are just especially attached to a particular societal model that they see threatened by a different lifestyle choice. Thoughout most of our evolutionary history, we primates have have lived in a hostile environment. The females were generally smaller & the males larger & quite capable of acting violently. One survival technique is for the female to form a monogamous relationship with a male of sufficient status to protect her and her offspring in return for the (assumed) paternity of their children. this model works well for a large percentage of the group, but eventually one runs out of males that have sufficient status to meet the protection clause of the contract. Thus a second survival technique can come into play. That is where a female exchanges sex for short-term gain / protection and to confuse the paternity of her offspring to minimize the chances of them being attacked by adult males. These females, of course, are subject to physical attack from the higher status females in the group which see them as a threat to their own chosen lifestyle. These interactions are seen in studies of our closest relations, chimpanzees & bonobos. This kind of evolutionary adaptation is pretty hard-wired into our brains. While we humans have built a sophisticated society & are a long way from our primeval past, a lot of our reactions of jelousy & rage to infidelity come straight from that primitive part of our brains. Prostitutes are taking resources away from the man's spouse & family. People who have a lot invested in the monogamous society model will react as thet see the existence of prostitution as a threat to the security of their own relationships.

Aaaah, PeaceGuy.... and how would that explain that most radical feminists - no friends of the monogamous society model - and many lesbians are abolitionists? Some primate behaviour models don't translate so well in human agency.

I certainlly am not comparing genitals to a pizza or bologna. Yuck!

I also did not at all try to imply your sexual preference, or personal appearance. No comments about saggy tits or hairy legs were made on my behalf, am I am not sure where the confusion came from. My apologies if that is what you thought I meant.

I was trying to hone in on the 'convenience' factor. I was comparing the convenience of purchasing a desired product....which in some cases can be food, in some cases can be sex, in some cases it could be something else. I will try to be more sensitive in my wording next time.

The reason I questioned this possible conclusion is because although I know we all can agree we are against vioence, slavery, rape, unconsesual sex acts, murder, child abuse and youth exploitation etc- abolishinists seem to want to make my life and the life of my clients less convenient. This entire group of people out there think my job should be abolished.

And, criminalization just seems to make everything a little less convenient for consenting adults to happily negotiate a trade of money for sexual adventures and experiences. So no thanks to abolishinists who want to make life less convenient for my clients, the business owners I rent work spaces from, or for me. As inconvenience is all that is being accomplished by those who feel they should decide my detiny within my choice of profession, and the choices of a human being who wants to purchase a service that may perhaps invlove a sexual fantasy.

So that was my point. And I really don't want to offend. I am happy to live in a country where we can all have the human rights to our own belief systems.

I have been reading more, and am trying to figure My stance on everything here on this forum.

However, as for this quote; 'These females, of course, are subject to physical attack from the higher status females in the group which see them as a threat to their own chosen lifestyle. These interactions are seen in studies of our closest relations, chimpanzees & bonobos.'

I cannot stop laughing. That is the funniest thing I have read all day! And you know what? I think it makes sense! We can learn a lot from bonobos.

Funny in other leisure time pursuits, we  as as society do not worry so much about convenience, or inconvenience, when considering laws surrounding leisure activities.

There is no leisure activity that I have been able to think of that is not regulated with strict protocols these days, where interpersonal and public action intersect.

They are even regulating  individual leisure activity parameters these days, even though it is inconvenient, for those who want to pursue them the way they want.

 

Bike riding with helmuts comes to mind, or life jackets while boating, even now you have to have a boating license to boat, and a hunting license to hunt.

How incconvenient is all that, eh?

 

And they are less risky leisure pursuits, than exchanging and releasing of body fluids.

 

Personally... I think a little inconvenience is warranted.

 

Perhaps even a lot.

 

And most certainly you did make that compare, as it was objectification imagery, combined with infering  negative emotions, and  thus negative imagery, upon people you do not even know.

 

Infering negative emotions such as angry, is stigmatizing and marginalizing, moreover it is  personalizing said discussions.

In fact, negatively personalizing  discussions and opinion holders, is hardly trying to find conscenus and solutions. It only lead others, to the desire to use equally as inappropriate emotional words for the other side, that they equally could not know, so the only purpose would be labelling and stigmatizing and hurting.

Not very high pursuits in my opinion, even if I was offended, which I am not. Just feeling a bit of distaste at the unnecessary personalization as if abolitionists, or legalizers, were all of the same mind.

 

I am certainly not angry about the convenience of it all, if it were true scenario that is.

If someone wants to spend bucks on an ejaculatory response in their leisure time, who am I to judge, if they want it to be quick or not...

 

..it is their leisure time, and maybe they want to move along to something else.

 

The only thing that concerns me are the environment, health and labour laws.

 

 

 

 

Hey CookiesNScream... I think you have a nibble here!

Actually and martin (wow, surprise martin!) you have shown us your distain for sex workers, and also a destain for listening to and believing that there are some women who do this because they want to. The equivalent is that women are not evolved enough to make our own choices, so martin and men like him  get to make them for us. Why is absolutely no one stating this simple fact? Men who come on here and claim agency over women in any other context would be hung out to dry, yet we continually allow martin to do just that.

What is this supposed to mean?

who did this other than you michellle?

"feminazi" is a term used by sex worker to describe feminist abolitionists who refuse to acknowledge sex work as a choice. fortunate is a good friend and did not intend any offence i am sure. just as people refering to sex workers as hookers, prostitutes, or prostituted people do not intend any offence.

becuase of isolation and segregation under the criminalized regime currently existing in canada, our culture is evolving seperately in some ways, such as language.

people asked for more sex workers to come to babble and provide feedback. i have invited workers from all over canada and would hope babblers will have patience and allow sex workers, business owners and consumers to express them selves.

I think CookiesNScream alights, if tactless in phraseology, on a point.  I think people do attempt to use political or intellectual ideology to control just who is having sex with whom and how, just like religion is used to the same effect.  And I do think it harkens back to some hardwired behaviours.  

But, it's those kinds of control issues, manifested in all it's glorious colours, that keeps CookiesNScream in business.  She should be doing what she can to promote the kind of activity she is critical of. 

But then, BDSM is all about paradox.

If I can drift for a bit,  Remind's deepest darkest offhand confession made me think about my own experiences, and I'll seque it back to topic at the end.   Being born well before the internet, if one had some pecadillos or compulsions or, more commonly, "kinks" one certainly kept it to one's self.  In the 60's, particularly in my world, anything but missionary position sex was, well, not talked about.  Or should I say, not confessed.

So, one could envision a life not ever finding anyone like yourself that shared a curiosity along various sexual lines.

But then the internet.  

It seems to me anyone can find another person interested in what you are interested in, sexually or otherwise.   So much so,  I wonder that there's business opportunities for dominatrix's or submissives these days, or any other specialists.

I suppose the answer to that is that there's still a good number of people who cannot, for one reason or another, find an expression for those things within an otherwise conventional relationship. 

 

Not that I want to wish unemployment on anyone (least of all coming from this manufacturing worker) but if we were all a little less repressed and honest, maybe all these threads would be a moot point, having pulled the rug out from under the whole sex trade, and the ideologues of all stripes that make a living off of it by criticizing it?

 

 

...not a chance in hell,  is femi-nazis going to be used here unless they are going to start allowing comments of equal equivalency to be used against you, and your allies, who actually are not  front sex workers,  just cheerleaders.

 

If  anyone thinks they can tell me, that I must respect a john's right to call me a feminazi,  in order to empower  sex workers, you are  mistaken.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's a favorite term of Rush Limbaugh's. In fact I think he coined it.

Anyway, instruction has been rendered by a moderator, to a new poster.

We can move on.

 

 

You are not allowed to use that term on this forum.  I can make leeway for "first offences" for people who are new and, and I understand that people use vernacular like that among themselves, but it's not allowed here, period.  It's not even up for debate.  People will just have to "express themselves" without using such terminology.

"Prostituted" is a disputed term among people who work in the industry.  I don't know of any feminists who identify as "feminazis" but there are sex workers and former sex workers who identify with the term "prostituted" including some here.

you have now got 4 workers saying different.....i am a sex worker.i have choice, i can with hold access and do. i do set the rates and the terms of the encounter. period.

please do not cast all sex workers as victims with no choice or agency. it simply is not true and it contributes to our harm making us appear as damaged goods, disposable,less.

if you want to talk about these issues seriously you must try to start listening to what we are saying and respect our choices and autonomy as human beings.

especially if you support, as you claim, decriminalizing sex workers- not customers but workers-

it is extremely offensive to us to be called prostitutes or prostituted people. please respect that you are harming us by insisting on using such terms. i understand some ex workers support the term as reflecting their experience.

this thread was started by a sex worker who identifies as a sex worker. if you want to start a thread about prostituted people, please do so but allow sex workers respect and safety to express themseleves by using the terms we have adopted to describe our experiences when engaged in discussions with us. i will repsect threads started by prostituted people and use terms they have adopted, please .....show a little respect.

now i am just a cheerleader? wow your insults are getting worse. i am a frontline sex worker....what the hell does that mean anyway? are you trying to describe survival sex workers, street sex workers?

i worked on the street, was almost killed,pimped, lived in the DTES hotels. once again you are using your own language to describe something about which you have no lived experience. please respect terms that sex workers themselves have adopted to describe our experiences.

my experiences are hardly comparable to a cheerleader.....nice try though. even in the face of more workers supporting choice you choose to ingore and try to diminish their voices.

i know it's hard to admit i may be right and may actually know my community but it's true. try to refrain from belittling us remind.it's really taxing and i would hope beneath you.

i invited sex workers here at the request of babblers, here they are. attacking them and the ways in which they express themselves is low and makes me wonder why we should risk engaging with people like you. it is extremely upsetting for us all in particular your mucous membrane, mandatory testing, using our vagina's position. we are people. for you to dimish us in this way is comletely disrespectful. i would think that as a person who is invested in saving prostituted people you would care to listento what they have to say.

unless of course you only care about your own position and to hell with what sex workers actually think. we must get rid of prostitution no matter the cost.

another direct attack. i posted a link to babble on the naked truth.....no charge for that....annie is a former sex industry worker. you do not have the right to diminsh her experinces. the business she owns is a gathering space for sex industry workers. she has worked her ass off to creat space for us to come together as a community.

it is really beginning to become clear to me that you hate us, sex workers i mean. especially workers who donot identify as prostituted or victimized. do you want to see anything change?do you want to hear from sex workers?

you challenge me to back up my position but when i do you simply diminish and degrade us. please try to contain your emotions and see this for what it is, an opportunity. an opportunity for us all to work on these issues together. we can waste time insulting each other or we can acknowledge the experiences of actual sex workers and try to move forward.

 

Is that true? I thought that members with web addresses were encouraged to post them, at least in their profiles -- and isn't there a thread for members who are also bloggers?

Well, that was a question from someone who is srsly out of date, I guess. Maybe it's back there in the archives; I actually don't know.

you did say it......

Yes I did, never said Ididn't,  but it was not in reference to yourself, as you keep trying to imply, and I have asked to stop doing such things...I respect your positioning and lived experience,   please do not disrespect mine, by indicating I said something when I did not, in the real world and here that is slander.

I apologize in advance that I have not had the time or energy to read through the discussion yet. I will do so later. So as an introductory post, I would like to answer the originating question: "Is there sex worker representation of those who are in the trade, and enjoy the benefits of the work?" and tell my story.

My working names have been "Thais" and "Ingrid Nevin". I am 26 at present. I have worked in a massage parlour throughout my last year of university, and later on, as I was stuck in a dead-end corporate job that I hated, I came back to adult industry as an independent escort, which I have now been doing on and off for about 3 years.

I want to say that yes, I absolutely enjoy my job - as long as I can do it exactly on my terms. Those terms include:

- working part-time to have the time, flexibility and finances to pursue my other interests

- having rather high standards for clients in terms of respect and consideration they show me.

When these terms are met, I LOVE this job. When they aren't, I burn out pretty quickly. That's what happened at the massage parlour when I started working. I discovered a lot of great things about this industry that I never expected to find: moments of genuine connection and deep real intimacy between you and your client. I also found out that I hated when I was nothing but a body to the man I was with. Therefore, when I returned to the industry, I have only done it after about 6-8 months of research on pros and cons. I discovered how to keep the attributes I enjoyed and leave out the attributes I hated.

I've had a 2-3 hour minimum as an independent escort, a website that highlighted my personality, and requested a polite written introduction from prospective clients on what they were looking for. As the result, I made sure I was mostly seeing people who were interested in me as a person as opposed to a hot redhead. Several of my clients became good friends and mentors. Sex was also pretty good most of the time - it doesn't say much, but many clients were much better lovers than the boyfriends I've had. No, most of the time I wasn't attracted to them - but it does not change the fact that at least half of my clients were skilled lovers who genuinely cared for my pleasure.

I have also been fascinated with the industry and a member of several North American review boards over the last 3 years. I have read blogs by sexwork-positive feminists and abolitionists, I have been watching the fight and discource. Lately, I stopped participating in it. For me personally, these online debates are often more hurtful and draining that the rare bad/possessive client who slipped through my screening system. In fact, I dread reading this discussion thoroughly.

My impressions from personal experience, 3 years on the boards and following 10-20 escort blogs ranging from positive to negative is that being a prostitute/escort can be a positive experience as long as: your personality is suited for it (you see clients as human beings and care for them), you know how to set your rules with clients, and you have other meaningful things in your life and good network of support.

There appears to be an air of disgusted amazement and condescension at work here, a sense of protectionism that employs a peculiar methodology which borrows heavily upon derivatives of victorianesque patriarchy as the basis for argument.  Apparently, one cannot simply choose what to do with oneself as consenting, empowered adults, in conjunction with other adults, if it offends the sensitivities of those who shockingly object.

welcome ingrid and slumber jack!!meet remind and martin and infosaturated- they will be trying to undermine your perspective and ignoring your voices.try to ignore them, they can be a little rude.

i am greatful to meet yet another sex worker happy in her job!

still waiting for all the many numbers of "prostitutes persons" to contribute......since after all there are so many abused people in our industry....

love susie

Left unmentioned is the entire structure of repression, comprised of legally sanctioned exploitation starting with the police.  The safety and security of those who could do with it is an admirable and all too necessary concern, yet imposing ones version of security upon those who do not require it is oppression in its own right, not to mention the characteristics that typically come with one size fits all morality.

 

Seems to me those who are pro-decrim no regulations want a one size fits all morality.

 

But I as I said I care little about those espousing a notion of morality dictates, not only is that not where I am coming from, but  it would be equivalent to others levelling charges against the decrim crowd that they want all society ascribing to their morals and poor health safety standards.

Neither are correct and neither are true across the board.

Oh tommy, that hit me a bit in the tummy....and got a pesky nose twitch...

 

It is true remind. You have a giant heart and that shows. No one can deny that.

Clearly the present laws have abjectly failed to do some of what the politicians intended - protect vulnerable people.  Some vulnerable people have been prostituted - physically or psychologically coerced into the sex trade by others.  These people clearly need better protection than they are receiving.  Laws can be crafted that address this specific criminal activity.  They also need sufficient resources to be allocated to enforcement of the law, something governments are loath to do with the current legislation.  A more narrowly focused law would prevent scant resources being wasted harrassing workers who have freely chosen this line of work.

The rest have chosen to enter .this field of work.  Some, possibly a majority, have done so as the least bad of limited options due to poverty and / or addiction.  The pimps & the johns do not drive them into the trade & if we just magically elimonate the johns, these people then have to choose something they percieved as being worse than prostitution, if they see any other options at all, to meet their needs.  These people are where they are because of the abject failure of our governments' social justice policies.  If our governments properly dealt with issues of poverty and addiction with adequate funding and programs that are seen as a better option than prostitution, these people will not make that choice & the johns wishes would be irrelevant to them.

This would leave those people who have viable options but freely choose to work in the sex trade.  Proper regulation & zoning is all that is necessary.  Some folks here seem to be really fixated on the public health aspects of the sex trade but I'm more concerned about tattoo parlours & manicure / pedicure shops.  The percentage of the population that visit these establishments where instruments may or may not be sterilized between customers appears to be higher than participation in the sex trade.  If society can manage these businesses with minimal or no health regulation, the sex trade is no different.  At least both parties can clearly tell when reasonable safeguards are being used.

RE: poor health safety standards and testing requirements

 

I've read the discussion and would like to address just this point right now: as far as I understand, a lot of escorts are against mandatory testing because what services they offer and how many clients they see varies widely. A mandatory testing procedure is usually assumed to be the kind Nevada brothels practice, designed for several clients a day and hence the need to be tested weekly or by-weekly. Personally, I've come across a number of participants who only see a handful of clients a month, and most of those are regulars. Do they really need a test more frequently than every 2-3 months? I come to the free clinic here, I tell them everything about my history, and they don't want to come back more often then every 2-3 months!

Some escorts practice "everything safely", which usually stands for covered oral sex. Others do oral sex uncovered. Intercourse is always covered - at least, I never came across anyone who would confess otherwise, even though rumours do fluctuate on boards... There is one escort in my city famous for her uncovered blowjobs and high volume - in private conversations she said she gets tested either every week or every two weeks, I am sorry I don't remember exactly. Once again, that makes sense - and that was a comletely voluntary action on her part.

I think the opponents of mandatory testing are holding this position because they believe in the right of every escort to design her own testing schedule depending on her practices - and because, like myself, they have seen that most reputable escorts take their testing routines very seriously already. I say "most" just to be cautious, because I personally don't know a single one who would be an exception from that rule but I understand that my selection is biased.

Intercourse is always covered - at least, I never came across anyone who would confess otherwise, even though rumours do fluctuate on boards..

 

i did it uncovered. did it whatever way i had to to get the money for whatev i needed. know a lot who did, let us not kid ourselfes many do. why? becasue men want to, will pay more or just cause you need the score.l

I guess Canada starts and ends within the BC's borders for some people.  Such regulation is not universal across the country nor are all participants on this forum from the westernmost province.  We are talking about an issue of national scope involving federal law in addition to provincial legislation and municipal bylaws.

Health is a provincial responsibility under the constitutional division of powers.  Given that not all jurisdictions feel the need to enact regulations governing tattoo & manicure parlours, I suggest that those same jurisdictions might not feel the need to pass health regulations governing the less problematic sex industry.  They may choose to go with an industry code of practice instead.  or nothing at all.

nice, try to diminish our voices in any way you want, the fact remains. many sex workers choose this occupation and are happy in their jobs.

watch what other conclusions i draw....a few people here should heed those words......

that's nice. another person who feels we deserve what we get as sex workers who choose. i never have been against stabilizing the few but at what cost? i don't know about you but my friends are dead and workers call me everyday looking for adive, safe places to work and equal treatment under the law.

this is a workers issue, not a "womyns"issue or do you deny there are male sex workers?

i am a sex worker and i live with the current regime everyday.

beating down doors in england and in vancouver uncovered NO trafficked women but did completely disrupt the stability of those safe work environments. in engalnd-900 brothel raids found no trafficked women. 15 women were found when a worker asked for police assistance but none were found during the so called "kicking the doors down"

have you ever been in a raid? i have. it's terrifying.

 this sort of attitude is exactly why the situation has become as bad as it has. actions taken against us with understanding of sex industry stability causes harm. period.

i remember going as a delegation to the police board and an officer telling us the exact same thing. yes, he would destabilize the safety of an adult consentual sex worker in order to "protect" a youth and yes , he considered us a reasonalbe casualty in the war on organized crime.

well, no more. we have bleed enough. yes save the children and exploited people....but not at the expense of another persons safety.

we do not get what we deserve because we choose sex work. article one states that all people are equal and deserve equal treatment, or are we prepared to throw the human rights charter out the window too in order to "save people"?

 

But denying that they are a representative sample of sex workers as a whole is equally wrong, no?   There is an assumption, because you have been inundated with one perspective for too long, that the words of IngridNevin, etc are not the majority.  Based on what, exactly?  We have seen over and over that non-streetworkers represent over 80% of all sex work.  And the majority of indoor workers are there through choice, not through "pimping".  Pimping is still virtually relegated to street work, and I have yet to see any significant change to this.  So in what way can someone, in the majority, then be "prostituted".   It sounds like a verb, something done to women by someone else. 

re: femi-nazi comment.  It was in "quotes" after all, and referred to no one in particular, simply as a reference point based on the original posters comments.   I certainly wouldn't want to offend others, in spite of the fact that I have read many posts that are personally offensive due to the insistence on using labels, and definitions, and so on. 

There are many stories, as many stories as there are women.  Herstories, if you will, are not dismissable simply because they come from working sex workers.  And even that label is not necessarily the one preferred by women who work in this industry in this area.  Service providers seem to be the more widely accepted term, for us specifically.  But sex workers allows us to include dancers, actors, webcammers, models, etc.   I do not think it is necessary to attach yet another label in front of sex worker, like front line, or prostituted, and so on.   I see no reason why actually active sex workers cannot define themselves, rather than allow ex-sex workers to do it for them?

The majority of sex workers are in a very comfortable economic position, but many have no interest in pursuing online discussions, I have found.  If susi had not mentioned this site, I would not have known about it.  No one, other than her, sought me out to include my POV on this topic, nor the majority of sex workers who have much more of an online presence, yet I am sure some of the anti's out there knew full well how to find us.

I'm not trying to diminish your voice Susan.  I'm trying to help you eliminate unnecessary noise from your valuable message so that you can more effectively deliver it.

I have no need for proof that there are sex workers choosing their profession.  I personally know women and men who have made that choice and the choice was made by comparing the pros and cons vs other available employment (seems to me like an appropriate way to choose a profession).  I think it's ridiculous that people would try to tell you, a sex worker by choice, that there are no sex workers in the industry by choice.  With all of your experience and all the people you've met i suspect it is an even more ridiculous assertion, especially coming from people not involved in the industry.

But you were a good sport about it, and you brought more sex workers here to speak out.  That's awesome!  The voices of sex workers are under-represented just about everywhere, IMO.  And now that 4 people have come on to this thread, volunteering that they are all sex workers who have freely chosen their trade, it would be prtty silly for anyone to continue claiming that there are no sex workers by choice.

But then you go and say something odd:

It seems like you are a) implcitly disputing that there are so many abused people in your industry and b) suggesting that IF there were so many abused people in your industry then we should expect to see them represented here.  Now i have no interest in arguing with you over a), since your knowledge of the industry is doubtless better than mine.  What seemed odd was b).  To try to imply anything about the sex industry based on the absence of victimized prostitutes here on this babble thread seems like quite the jump.

The reason it seems like quite the jump, besides being a babble thread (babble having a very non representative sample population), is that those people are unlikely to be posting on message boards.  If someone is a prostitute against their will then likely they have more immediate concerns than posting to babble (with this crowd?  are you kidding?).

Now again, i'm not going to presume to tell you what things are like in your industry.  You know much more about that than i do (duh).  I just thought it was a dumb comment, and so i pointed it out because i don't think dumb comments serve your cause.

Arguments around convenience will probably not have much sway here.  It's with the plight of the women exploited by the sex industry that the abolitionists are concerned.  And so offhand comments about those exploited women that seem uninformed (why aren't they posting here on babble?) will push people's buttons.  I suggest focussing more on how decrim or legalization could help the women who don't choose prostitution rather than how it could help the women who do.  At least for this audience.

Or, if you can get hard numbers on how it breaks down (by choice vs "prostituted") probably that could be productive.  People are unlikely to be swayed by your personal experience, which they see as anecdotal, if it contradicts their already held view.  You are probably viewed as having a privileged status in the sex industry which makes it more difficult for some to take your experience as representative.

It's unfortunate that some here are making you jump through hoops in order to earn credibility.  Hope you can stay with it.

i don't know about you but my friends are dead

 

my neice is dead. my cousin is dead and my friends to are dead. im am completely indifferent to what i not here to debate what i do what i have a problem with is the constant pollyana attitude that somehow prostitutes are social workers who will seek out the lost, forced and beaten and report them and get them help. its a lie, at least admit it. 

there is not a prostitute/sex industry type alive who has not come in contact with someone who they knew was suckin cock against their will. 

im not on sue's side nor am i on baptie's side i just think we need to be fucking honest. i know my girls want us decriminalized but i can tell ya for my grandaughter/cousins/neices etc everyone better keep your fuckin hands off her or ill tear ya apart. but who are we kiddin in this day and age with their shade of brown skin/hair/eyes we know its almost inevitable. 

anyone on here got some girls they love that they want to have stand in the place of my girls? didnt think so we gotta think of who's gonna be taking sue & friends place. 

my and my girls are tight like go to jail with each other tight and that bonds ends the second it comes down to him choosing me or her i need the bank. dead honest. 

also wanted to add that you are privaliged in my gals SRO she ain't got internet hook up. when i say poor i mean your rez is 8 hours from fuckin anywhere and ya aint got shit there. when i say poor i mean poor. 

i aint seen poor in a while im doing good now im scared of poor the way a girl is scared of tellin her man she didnt make quota. ill never be there again. 

i remember being on the street and living in the SRO's after i got out of prison.at least we share some experiences in common. the workers who own and created canada's first sex worker coop included many workers form the street. the same as the history project, labor on the margins, ptsd project....in fact all our projects....

my primary concern has always been to support safety fow my sisters and brothers on street. please read my posts to understand what we are doing.

just because i have internet doesn't make me priveleged. i pay for it and everything else on my back.month to month i am one step away from being homeless again.seperating out sex workers on street from indoor workers in false. many of us migrate between venues as our capacityies and emotional stability fluctuate. we are all sisters and brothers.

i have made adult films, i have worked on street i have worked indoors.

and yes, i remeber once i was forced by my pimp family to watch another girl who's hair had been cut off and prevent her from running. no i didn't call police or let her go, i would have been punished. i did tell her please, they will let us out for work tomorrow, you can run then. i eventually ran too and was cuaght and beaten for my trouble....did i call police....no? did i call a gangster?yes....was he a heavy hitter? yes....was i ever bothered again by anyone?....no .....is this typical? no....i am extermemly lucky....they say 1% of women survive the DTES once on street. either OD, suicide, death by disease or murder ....i am a 1%er.

we have always maintained conditions on the street are dismal. we want safety and dignity for workers no matter their location in the industry. a toilette to use, a place to clean up after seeing a client...is that so much to ask? panic buttons and security....

of the founding coop members, 2 are dead and 2 more are diagnosed with fatal diseases. it sucks that we didn't give these workers what they asked for before they died, i hope to see some movement forward before these 2 or any others die.

 

i am implicitley contesting numbers of people abused in our industry as put forth by our opposition here on babble.

i have tried to focus the discussion but to no avail, many people derail or hijack threads promoting their own ideas and preventing any movement forward, just look at the proposed actions threads in this forum.....zero response.

i do appreciate your wisdom though and it relfects my origional intentions for being on this board. it has proved to be somewhat difficult however i will try to continue.

Absolutely. I don't think you are doing it and I think you can admit I am not doing it either.

There's certainly much to admire in what both of you have put forward as part of your passionate beliefs, both with Susan having joined recently, and Martin having been around here much longer.  With harm reduction or its outright elimination being a  visible common element, a middle ground of sorts shoudn't be inaccessible.

No remind, that is not true. "Most of you" as referred to in your post above (I guess we are the "you") just do not follow your line of stringent testing. Not one person has said testing doesn't need to be done. What people have stated, and what is obvious, is that you cannot force anyone to get tested (johns here). In fact susan has already discussed, in many many posts, the need for health and safety regulations. Just because what we have discussed doesn't meet your criteria does not mean anyone thinks testing is unnecessary. If I am wrong I would like some direct quotes from any sex worker on here who has stated health regulations are unnecessary.

Can we all try to stop inflaming these threads because as Slumberjack pointed out, there is a lot of common ground. If we could step back from our positions then maybe we can actually, you know, help people who chose to do sex work, and help assist those who have no choice.

Not sure if this is the best place for this.  susi is not the only voice out there, but sometimes you do have to poke around a bit to find them.  This article references other articles on the issue of decriminalization in the US as well as other things.   It may give some perspective.   I hope it leads the reader to click on other articles, blogs, links and so on and hear that there are many faces and many different voices, with one common goal.

www.realprincessdiaries.com/2009/10/donna-hughes-advocates-the-abuse-of-sex-workers/

This is a quote from a comment about the article I have linked here:.

"I would like to see some more solid statistics about the extent to which legalizing adult prostitution cuts down on child prostitution. The best I can do are things like this someone said on the internet, “I am quite sure that, while child sex workers would still exist, [if adult prostitution was legalized] they would exist in lower numbers. I mean, right now, how many child strippers are there? is stripping legal? Why do you think more interactive sex work would be different? At least if prostitution was legal child prostitutes would have to be able to get a good fake ID, as it is now, all they have to do is step outside.”"

I do hope some of you can open your already formed opinions to see another POV.   One of the comments refers to how certain laws and decisions about prostitution are made without any input whatsoever from sex workers.  Here is another quote, which I hope illustrates my opinion about that sort of thing:

"It takes a considerable amount of intracranial density, and great big set of brass ones to stand before a body of people and assert that a law that would make criminals out of sex workers, leading to their inability to get other jobs, losing their children, losing any job they currently held, possibly resulting in the loss of homes, divorces, etc., is going to “help them.”  Think about the sheer lunacy of such an assertion for a few minutes.

If we made such a claim about any other proposed law that did something similar, yet didn’t involve people who sell sex, we’d be laughed out of the room.  That politicians buy into this kind of shit speaks volumes about them as well, though.  No one’s ever accused politicians of being the brightest bulbs in the box, have they?  I’d call them whores to the likes of Hughes and her ilk, but I’ll not disparage the fine sex workers who use that term legitimately to describe themselves.  I’d not dare to denigrate true whores by associating them with politicians."

"So, in the face of overwhelming, incontrovertible evidence that these laws don’t work and actually bring harm upon the prostitutes, the only plausible reason for outlawing sex work is, quite obviously, punishing sex workers, not “protecting” them.  It is literally impossible to argue anything to the contrary."

"Assault, theft and murder are already crimes. Sex workers are targets because they are marginalized, not because sin attracts sin. Criminalizing sex work only punishes sex workers and makes them more vulnerable."

 

This is not okay.  Please don't.

 

Feel free to add your two cents.  I believe there is a mention of a situation that is of particular concern to you; you might want to present your actual POV to add to the comments of those who have done it for you, lol.

Baiting? Aw martin, stretching again I see. Nice!! You've outdone yourself. Congrats.

Take a look in the mirror.

 

You are not only challenging women in prostitution (sex work martin, remember? That is what they like it to be called. You probably forgot), you are attempting to ensure the state controls their bodies, our bodies, as women. You stand with REAL WOMEN of Canada. I don't know how you manage to twist yourself up so much about how and why people chose sex work. Why don't you start focusing on the exploited ones as opposed to hounding the ones who chose this work.

And full class marks to you for being so happy to find out susan had a hard time at one point. Pure class.

Well I will add that I am talking about the "caste" differences of the sex trade. The most vulnerable are street level sex workers. The ladies and I suppose men, who do it in the so-called, "escort" industry, are less vulnerable. Oh they still may have a boyfriend who acts as pimp, or it may just be organized crime at work.

But either way. I don't think for a minute that any type of sex worker actually enjoys their work. It's just a job. I don't enjoy my work either, but I have to earn a living despite years of education that is worthless. Should prostitution be decriminalized? I don't know. The jury's out on that. Replacing one form of exploitation with another one doesn't address the issue.

But look at it this way. In some European cultures, having a mistress or a boy-toy is perfectly acceptable. The relationship is always an economic one and a sexual one, hence one-sided in a way. But it is one with two consenting adults. Is that prostitution?

Kanada2America

 

Anyone that hates sex and hates people would not enjoy this job, that is true.  But some people are pretty good at it, plus the perks are pretty obvious ones, don't you think?   I mean, in a way, most assumptions about clients are that they are a lot like the street workers.   Drug addicted, alcoholic, mental health issues, diseased, whatever.  The idea that it could be your (male) doctor, brother, son, father, uncle, neighbour, good looking 22 year old dude from down the hall, overweight but shy 70 year old widower from across the street, or whatever description you use when you (males) look in the mirror. 

Personally I would hate working at Tim Hortons, but then with my work and educational background, I am more likely to get work in middle and senior management so I have never had to "stoop that low" and work in a job that I am sure that everyone who does it hates it.  Personally I could also never be a nurse.  They have to deal with alot of nasty fluids and unhappy people, imo.

Well, after posting some polls, in a few hours I have replies from over 60 sex workers who agree with susi.   Enjoy the work, chose the work, like the work.  In fact, a few of them claim that they did imagine themselves doing this work when they were young lol.   Of the less than 15% who started underage, most of those were at least 16 or 17, more than half of them chose to do it for their own reasons,  and were definitely not coerced (by their own account). 

The polls will be extended to other Canadian sex work forums, and have really only been up for less than half a day but I will update as I hear more real stories from real sex workers.  It is not meant to be a scientific study, because the point is only to share real stories and information, not some biased anti-prostitution made up stuff that is based on a small segment of the total.

 

I expect to get several hundred replies, depending on access to other forums that I do not belong to as yet.   Kanada's post did make me think that I might additionally ask for a rating poll on how much they enjoy their work too.  Thanks.  I think it would be similar to anyone else's breakdown:  70% of it is great, 10% is boring, 10% is repetitive but neither good nor bad, and 10% is downright unpleasant.  Some of the indoor sex workers interviewed in a study that I read from several years ago said that they felt better about themselves after starting sex work than they had before.  Before they had self esteem issues or in general not happy in their lives.  They said that starting this work improved their lives and overall sense of happiness about themselves.

Long thread...