BC NDP stuck in Anti-Tax Mode and Spinning their Wheels

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kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture
BC NDP stuck in Anti-Tax Mode and Spinning their Wheels

The latest from the west coast anti-tax party.

 

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

 

I received the latest missive in the mail from the BC NDP.  After the Basi Virk plea bargain and the corruption oozing out of Victoria they chose to run on an anti-tax message as their central overriding theme. this fucking incompetence is going to see the lose of four straight elections. 

The NDP will have the HST pulled out from under their feet whether by an actual massive redistribution to the poor or by an outright repeal. They will then be facing a moderate leader from the outside and they will be facing the inevitable questions over and over.  If not this tax which tax will be raised or which programs cut? It's almost as if the people making the decisions are actually trying to lose.

Will anyone still left in this party get rid of the fools running it? 

Quote:

If you want to get rid of the HST, NOW IS THE TIME TO ACT.

...

I'm asking you to help by sending a donation to the BC NDP today.  Your donation will give us the resources to increase public pressure and rescind this unfair tax. 

...

Please, send your donation today. Whatever you can afford -$25 or $1,000- will be put to immediate use on our action plan to force the government to reverse the HST

 

Stockholm

So let me get this straight - you think the NDP should switch positions and announce that it is now in favour of the HST and that it will campaign to keep it in the referendum - that sounds like a real vote winner!

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Lets see does that mean you support murdering babies?

This is the shit they send their members to get donations and fire up the troops.  If you think that is good politics then I disagree.  I think they keep trying for the easy win by jumping on the anti-tax bandwagon and it keeps blowing up in their faces.  But hey the people in charge have only lost three elections in a row so that must be proof that any other ideas are absurd.

Stockholm

The NDP is not anti-tax - they are anti UNFAIR REGRESSIVE tax. Right now the HST is the the elephant in the room in BC politics - you can try to stick your head and in the sand and talk about something else and you will just be a tree falling in a forest.

UnionSupporter

Bob Simpson seems to be signalling he thinks the NDP should abandon the campaign against the HST

NDP MLA warns of voting against HST
VANCOUVER/CKNW AM 980
Jordan Armstrong

At least one NDP M-L-A is signaling he may not vote to kill the HST.

 Sounding very much like a member of the BC Liberal party, renegade MLA Bob Simpson says the HST would be complicated to unwind, and there would be implications in doing so. Simpson says if the government goes ahead with the 15 percent tax cut,  they're going to take 1.8 billion dollars out of the provincial revenue, and then if we say "no" to the HST, another 1.6 billion will have to be paid back to the federal government.  He says we have to look at this long and hard, make an informed decision and be aware of what the consequences will be.  
 

Bob Simpson speaking with CKNW's Christy Clark. 

mybabble

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Lets see does that mean you support murdering babies?

This is the shit they send their members to get donations and fire up the troops.  If you think that is good politics then I disagree.  I think they keep trying for the easy win by jumping on the anti-tax bandwagon and it keeps blowing up in their faces.  But hey the people in charge have only lost three elections in a row so that must be proof that any other ideas are absurd.

Excuse me but the Liberals managed to squeeze in a 3rd victory with low voter turn out which turned quickly into a loss as the people soon wanted the party gone as party leader leaves at 9%. Hardly a victory when the people of the province can't stand having the Liberals around and I am certain if polled today the people would agree the party is long gone and its just a question of time before there are more Liberals resigning.  The NDP dosen't have the corporate backers and that isn't necessarily a negative for the people because its who the party will work for its how it all works out as will not be obligated to big corporations but rather the people of BC.

The NO TAX PARTY sounds more like the lying Liberals who did a quick turnabout as tax the working stiff to give to the moochy rich while taking the food out of the mouths of babes to make BC budgets ends meet the governments very expensive tastes of supporting the rich. 

mybabble

HARMONIZED SALES TAX

Campbell + Harper = HST

Harper = HST

The NDP is not in that equation

and neither is Simpson or Clark going to be winners in the next election if they embrace the HST because the people are going to be so angry and frustrated and the economy is on sink says it all .  I understand what Simpson is saying about the HST it is not the NDP's to undo

and the Liberals are still in power and promised the people a referandum in a year but that needs to be moved up and open up the legislature what kinda crap is that anyways because the people aren't interested in waiting it out a year so a new leader will need to put down the HST with the prime minster as the two leaders work out all the fine details or Not!

The 15% tax cuts are way out of line in an economy that has tightened purse strings and will cause much harm and make a mess of the economy but what else is knew?

Carol James says open up the legislature lets get back to work and bring on the People's referandum to get rid of the HST.

 

 

NDPP

BC Premier Felled By Anti-Tax Campaign

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/nov2010/cana-n05

"The NDP's tail-ending of Vander Zalm in his anti-HST campaign is the product of a 3 decade stampede to the right on the part of social democrats and the unions.."

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Stockholm your dismissive tone would be better suited if the idiots running the party had won an election in a decade.   They keep losing elections and driving out anyone who disagrees with the "brain trusts" losing strategy. That attitude is for me emblematic of the BC NDP's problems. 

But carry on you do it so well.

Stockholm

A good way to lose a fourth election in a row would be to follow your strategy and campaign on a platform of supporting the HST - because not only do we support taxes - we also support "revenue neutral" tax schemes favoured by conservative economists that take from the poor and give to the rich (i.e. the HST).

When the government brings in a regressive measure that is opposed by 95% of the population - it seems to make sense to me that take a position in opposition to it.

melovesproles

Hey Kropotkin, I'd save your breath when it comes to Stockholm.  I remember last election while longtime BC NDP supporters and voters described their low morale and disappointment in the divisive 'axe the tax' James campaign, Stockholm was it's biggest cheerleader from back in the T-dot where permanent failure for the NDP in Provincial elections has become a fact of life. 

I could see how it would be possible in Ontario to be as completely clueless about the public mood in BC as Stockholm is, what's annoying is how he belligerently he peddles his ignorance.  The reality is despite Cambell's complete meltdown, the public support for James is completely stagnant.  That's remarkable.  I was at a friends the other night-a single mom with two shitty part-time jobs who has been completely screwed over by the Cambell regime and I brought up on a hopeful note that it looked like we were finally getting rid of Cambell.  I was pretty shocked by the vehemence she directed at James and the NDP, no faith at all that they would be much better than the Libs.  I put up a half-hearted defense of the NDP because they obviously would be better but the truth is the BCNDP lost me with their self-serving position on electoral reform last election and their divisive attacks on environmentalists.  I'm not strategic voting any more, if they want my vote and support they can start reflecting my values.  The sad reality is, the list of people who feel that the party does reflect their values is shrinking and is found less and less amongst low income BCers and more often from comfortable NDP hacks in Ontario.

Stockholm

I see no reason why any self-respecting progressive should support a regressive tax like the HST that transfers money from poor and middle class people to business and rich people. It should be a no-brainer to oppose that. There are some arguments that could be made from a progressive perspective for why there should be a carbon tax - I don't agree with them, but i recognize that they exist (btw: anyone got any stats on how much GHG emission have dropped in BC as a result of the carbon tax - if at all?). But there is NO progressive argument in favour of the HST - NONE NADA. Its a tax devised by the business lobby and by rightwing economists.

FYI: In the late 1980s when Margaret Thatcher tried to impose her regressive "poll tax" - it was the most far left elements in British politics to burned her in effigy and chanted "bollocks to the poll tax".

There is no zero sum game between whether people approve of carol James and the extent to which they approve or disapprove of Campbell. Just because people hate Campbell more than before doesn't mean that they have to like anyone else better.

I wasn't aware that there was much in the way of "strategic voting" for the NDP in BC in the first place. Who else is there to vote for if you're progressive? If you don't like what the NDP offers, you can always go and form your own Workers Communist party and run three of four candidates in Vancouver and see if you can break the 100-vote per riding mark.

Fidel

You either believe in tsxing profitable corporations or not.

You either believe in taxing those most able to pay or you don't.

And we won't even begin to confuse Nordic country tax policies with those of Canadian Liberal Parties, or the wolves biting our arses at two and three different levels of government.

A_J

Meanwhile, weren't the NDP one of the more vocal opponents of cutting the GST to 5% a few years back?  Now today the federal party wants the GST eliminated on heating fuel and provincially they're also taking this anti-tax stance.  It's one thing to see them acting like the tea party-lite, but the complete inconsistency just makes it that much worse.

Stockholm

"Meanwhile, weren't the NDP one of the more vocal opponents of cutting the GST to 5% a few years back?"

Nope, I don't remember that at all. If anyone has a link to any news reports of Jack layton going on a nationwide "Keep the GST at 7% tour", I'd like to see it. In retrospect, someone shoudl have opposed cutting the GST since it starved the government of so much revenue and caused much of the deficit we now have - but the fact was that the cut in the GST was going to pass regardless since the Liberals were (and still are) in the business of voting for all Tory budgets. The NDP definitey voted against the budget that conatined the GST cut - but there were a thousand other bad things in that budget that merited voting against.

Centrist

Well, here in BC the Cons always have the best tailored advertising campaigns and during the 2008 campaign they ran radio/tv ads whereby one of the major themes was the NDP opposing the GST cut from 7% to 5% and nobody in the NDP took issue with same.

That's why a middle-income suburban riding such as Pitt Meadows-Maple Ridge-Mission went from 40%Con/35%NDP in 2006 to 52%Con/33% NDP in 2008 primarily due to that Con HST cut "which was opposed by the NDP" - a 5% spread went to a 19% spread.

And also why the Cons almost won Burnaby Douglas and Vancouver South because of Dion's "Green Shift", which meant higher carbon taxes to most people.

IOW, the Cons painted the NDP as the pro 7% GST/anti-GST cut party and painted the Libs as the "higher carbon tax" party - when the populist 2% GST cut and "no more carbon taxes" were top of mind issues with many voters.

mybabble

Accounting 101

Its business as usual

Lets face it people the tax was never going anywhere its a 5 year tax and residents are told they will be getting a referandum in about a year like come now how is that going to work?  Why would you want the tax fully implemented before taking it out to really hurt business.

It could do more harm than good which I might point out that Simply Accounting had their software ready well in advance like business when it makes its 5 year plans.  It would be something like bitting off your nose to spite your face.

Nope its a no can do if Campbell was honestly going to undo the 5 year tax it would have happened right from the get go so suckered again. 

Perhaps you could get your very expensive government to open up the legislature so residents can have their say.

mybabble

Axe the tax was a good idea because the Carbon Tax is just another scheme as low income take the brunt of the tax while the big polluters get all the breaks.  Its a fact for the tax to be affective it needed to trickle down not up where the low income would not have to go without while big corporate polluters get all the money.

The tax should have been geared to the rich and not to the poor to have any affect on global warming and it was just another tax grab for the rich and it was a whole lot of expensive advertising that helped get it in.  Marketing 101 flood the market with BS and BS programing as spin doctors spin it so Campbell and Big business could have it their way. Who else has money for advertising and can influence programing but Big Business and the Liberal Government of BS? No one could accuse this party of not living up to its name as Liberals sure do like to spread it around and know how to sucker people in.  Suzuki was taken in by Campbell but realized after he was insincere, nice way of calling him a hypocrite and a liar.

Make the poor go without while the rich have a hay-day with global warming which is biting at are heals.

The carbon tax is another loser like Campbell only unfortunately a lot of his policies made losers out of the people of BC or is that BS?

Just trying to keep you on track but thats right you guys don't have a train to your name.

http://waterwarcrimes.blogspot.com/2010/05/british-columbia-premier-camp...

Stockholm

Centrist wrote:

Well, here in BC the Cons always have the best tailored advertising campaigns and during the 2008 campaign they ran radio/tv ads whereby one of the major themes was the NDP opposing the GST cut from 7% to 5% and nobody in the NDP took issue with same.

In the next election, the NDP will retaliate by running ads attacking the Harper Sales Tax that was foisted on BC by the Conservatives. At least that would actually be truth in advertising - unlike the Tories and their false advertising.

Jacob Richter

Stockholm wrote:
I see no reason why any self-respecting progressive should support a regressive tax like the HST that transfers money from poor and middle class people to business and rich people. It should be a no-brainer to oppose that.

Ever heard of Scandinavia?  Their sales taxes are quite a bit higher there.  Of course they cover this up through tax transfers, but what the hell!

As for the rest of your post, it is a defense of FPTP and a lesser-evil "two party" system.

Stockholm

But the HST is REVENUE NEUTRAL remember - it doesn't give the government so much as one extra red cent. All it does is make sure that business pays less and individuals pay more. I'm not against all sales taxes in principle. But what was wrong with the old system of having provincial sales tax and the GST separate whereby business had to pay tax like everyone else? - instead of this Chicago School inspired tax scheme of loading flat taxes onto the public will letting business get away with paying nothing.

That's the problem with all the new Campbell taxes like the carbon tax and the HST - they are the worst of both world's, they are new taxes that are regressive that hit the poor disproprtionately, plus they are visible and whip the public up into an anti-tax frenzy and for all that since they are both supposely REVENUE NEUTRAL - there is no extra money for health of social programs.

I think a case could actually be made in favour of raising the sales tax or even for bringing in a carbon tax - if these were actually going to give the government additional revenue - but since they are REVENUE NEUTRAL - there is no benefit to either of them.

Don't kid yourself, Campbell knows what he's doing - he wants to poison the well against any new taxes - while making sure that his new taxes are REVENUE NEUTRAL - to make sure that the government remains impoverished and has an excuse to refuse to spend money on anything worthwhile.

I support taxes that are REVENUE POSITIVE that actually give government some tools to work with - not some rightwing tax scheme masquerading as a tax like the HST.

mybabble

Who will the next Liberal leader be?  Who will bring the party to victory, Christy Clark?  It sure would help the NDP.

"Starve a poor child Save the Rich."  Isn't that how it goes wanna be premier Christy Clark and my intuition tells me you'll make sure nothing changes?

Aristotleded24

melovesproles wrote:
I could see how it would be possible in Ontario to be as completely clueless about the public mood in BC as Stockholm is, what's annoying is how he belligerently he peddles his ignorance.  The reality is despite Cambell's complete meltdown, the public support for James is completely stagnant.  That's remarkable.  I was at a friends the other night-a single mom with two shitty part-time jobs who has been completely screwed over by the Cambell regime and I brought up on a hopeful note that it looked like we were finally getting rid of Cambell.  I was pretty shocked by the vehemence she directed at James and the NDP, no faith at all that they would be much better than the Libs.

I find it remarkable that on the front page, there is a poll asking people who they want to see as the next Premier of BC. It's currently a 3-way tie, with the following from 1 to 3:

Christy Clark

None of the above

Carole James

I think that speaks volumes about the disillusionment within the BCNDP. It's definitely time to clean house.

Fidel

BC Libs are going to have to find a better baby kisser to lead the party and shrug off the public's lingering disdain for Campbell. He's brought a curse on them for the next election. I think B.C. voters will be off of the entire party not just the head liar.

Premier Carole James. I like the sound of it.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Stockholm your absurd arguments where you try to put word in my mouth are ridiculous.  I never said to run supporting the taxes I am stating the obvious that a party that believes in government intervention in the economy needs tax revenue,.  Positioning oneself as a n anti-tax party and a party that wants to have government programs is something no one believes and therefor they will not vote for obvious bullshit.  

Let the right run on anti-tax.  Sure put fair tax policy that doesn't hurt the poor in the platform but don't make it the fucking focus of the election campaign because no one is buying the current message.  If the BC NDP was a business it would be bankrupt from lack of sales.

If we had competent leadership in the BC NDP we would already have Carole James as Premier but instead the "brain trust" lost another election and now wants to again stifle anyone who disagrees with their losing strategy. 

Stockholm

If people like you were in charge of BC NDP strategy in the last election they would have ended up with 4 seats out of 87 and about 20% of the popular vote.

Aristotleded24

Fidel wrote:
Premier Carole James. I like the sound of it.

And about two thirds of rabble readers do not. What does that say when Carole can't even inspire the people who should be her natural base?

remind remind's picture

No, no, the real questions are; who here voted for Christie Clark, and why did rabble even include her name?

 and one could also ask; why is centrist saying the exact same thing in 2 differing threads? Is starting to sound like a commercial! ;)

Natural base here according to that premise behind your statement aristotled24, would be a natural  christie clark base. As that is what said poll says who are the primary participants here....

 

...many things to think about in respect to this rabble poll centrist is selling....or trying to. (winks at centrist)

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Stockholm wrote:

If people like you were in charge of BC NDP strategy in the last election they would have ended up with 4 seats out of 87 and about 20% of the popular vote.

Ah yes the we did bad but it could have been worse excuse.  Three elections and a near miss using your strategy but anyones else's would be worse.  Pathetic is the adjective that comes too mind for that argument.  How many elections have you and your brilliant strategists won in Ontario in the last 20 years?  When do you predict a breakthrough in your province using your tried and true strategies?

Fidel

We're conservabral here in Ontario for the last century, Kropot'. Can't you tell by our unemployment numbers and net outmigration of young people to other provinces and stubbornly high rates of child poverty second only to a few other well known provinces?

Stockholm

We know one thing that NEVER EVER wins elections in the western world - old school 1930s style Marxism with lots of talk about class struggle. If you look at election after election after election after election in Europe and in north America and in Australia and NZ - if there is one thing that is 100% non-existent - its any sudden surge in support for parties far to left of traditional social democratic parties. 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Stockholm what about my "Name" or posting history would lead you to believe I have any love for old style 1930's Marxism.  Your comments in reply yo my posts sound like stock slurs not thoughtful responses.

I agree that anyone running a platform based on 1930 Marxism would be a fool and get very few votes. So quit responding to my posts with this fucking idea that I am a Marxist and in favour centrally controlled socialism and that would be the platform if I was in charge of one.

 

remind remind's picture

One really needs to take these anti Carole James/NDP threads with a grain of salt, given  the majority here support Christie Clark...kinda says who and what the majority are,eh....

Centrist

remind wrote:

No, no, the real questions are; who here voted for Christie Clark, and why did rabble even include her name?

 and one could also ask; why is centrist saying the exact same thing in 2 differing threads? Is starting to sound like a commercial! ;)

Natural base here according to that premise behind your statement aristotled24, would be a natural  christie clark base. As that is what said poll says who are the primary participants here....

 

...many things to think about in respect to this rabble poll centrist is selling....or trying to. (winks at centrist)

 

Oh fer crying out loud, remind. I saw this poll on here this morning and was floored. Who the hell here is voting for Christy Clark? She's a reign of terror and error who helped create chaos in the education system. That's who she is.

BTW, if the question was "Who would make best Lib leader", mark me down for Kevin Krueger!

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

remind wrote:

One really needs to take these anti Carole James/NDP threads with a grain of salt, given  the majority here support Christie Clark...kinda says who and what the majority are,eh....

If you are responding to my posts Remind then you owe me an apology. Remind do you think the focus of the BC NDP should be anti-tax campaigns or not?  I am trying to have a debate to better the alternative in BC for voters but I am met with red baiting by stockholm and personal insults from you and Fidel. [implying I have anything do to do with Christie is an insult] 

Three election loses in a row and any discussion about how to get out of that losing rut is met with open hostility.  Go ahead make it four once again snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Stockholm

With regard to 'anti-tax" campaigns - its interesting that so much of the criticism I keep reading of the NDP is that they have been too timid and not taken enough of a leadership role in the anti-HST fight. I keep reading that Carol James "screwed up" (sic.) because she let Bill VanderZalm and co. take the lead on the anti-HST fight while the NDP lurked in the background. Now some people here seem to think that even lurking in the background and opposing the HST - is too much for them. i guess damned if you do and damned if you don't!

Back in the late 80s, the rallying cry of the Militatnt Tendency and all the most leftwing elements in the Labour party was "bollocks to the poll tax" and mass rallies against the regressive poll tax were what finally drove Margaret Thatcher out of power. The French Revolution was sparked by outrage over the "gabelle" or Salt Tax that took money from the peasants and gave it all to Louis the Sixteenth.

There is a long noble tradition of leftwing activism and even revolution being sparked by oppositioin unfair regressive taxes (like the HST and the carbon Tax) that take from the poor and give to the rich.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Thank you Stock for the thoughtful post.  I don't read as many MSM papers as you do because I believe so little of what they publish.  I don't see the party getting any traction out of the anti-tax focus.  It isn't working on the ground. I believe that most people understand that at the end of the day there will be some sort of Sales Tax and Gordo's lying about it before the election is what has created so much traction. I believe the party needs to focus its energies on issues that daily affect the young and the poor and the new Canadians.  Someone in the Lower Mainland trying to live on two or three part time jobs isn't out in the street demanding repeal of the HST.  They don't care and they probably like the cheques they are now getting bribed with.  

I think the party's success depends on its ability to reach out and speak to the people who make up the majority in poorest province in the country.  What are we going to do for them?  How are we going to pay for it?  Those are the things I think the NDP needs to hammer away at no matter what distraction the MSMN throws at them.  Most people I talk to in BC see the HST as the Zalm's fight and the NDP as trying to get attention on someone else's bandwagon.  I believe that and that is why I want them to get better strategies.  They are the second string of the anti-HST fight and too me that is a very weak political position, fraught with much danger.

remind remind's picture

Apparently a majority of people here would like to have Christie as BC premier, centrist, thought provoking, eh!

That rabble even included her, in a poll, is even more thought provoking.

Fidel

Campbell's Liberals just wanna raise everyone's taxes so they can afford more social democracy and lower the sky-high child poverty rates in beautiful British Columbia.

It's either that or they are lying...again.