Interesting news from Edmonton

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edmundoconnor
Interesting news from Edmonton

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edmundoconnor
remind remind's picture

Guess they think they got Albertan votes locked in...

Cueball Cueball's picture

Looks like that story floated by Pat Martin about how the BQ and the Conservatives were in cahoots together because of a hockey rink in QC looks even more sorry now than when it was first published.

6079_Smith_W

Hmmm... Since when is "ask" a noun? 

Paragraph 11

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Haha. That's a pretty clumsy construction (although it is a quote) but "ask" is used as a noun in Britain all the time. "It's a big ask for the boys," the gaffer admitted. "But I have no doubt we can get the job done."

6079_Smith_W

Well you learn something new every day. Thanks (and I wasn't down on the GLobe, but the speaker).

Actually not too long ago I made mention to a British friend of mine about a political situation being "bad optics". He had no clue what I was talking about, and it even worse because he was a science reporter.

edmundoconnor

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Hmmm... Since when is "ask" a noun? 

Paragraph 11

I've heard it used as a noun. All too often in political fundraising circles.

Cueball Cueball's picture

An "ask" is the opposite of a "bid".

Aristotleded24

If the federal funding for the Quebec City arena goes through while the bid for the Commonwealth Games is rejected, the optics will not be good. Here come the Western Alienation folks. Get ready for Reform on steroids.

Stockholm

I think its a given that any federal funding for the arena in Quebec City is now dead! If the Tories had the slightest intention of giving that money to Quebec City, they would be giving themsleves cover by also giving money to Edmonton etc...

Lou Arab Lou Arab's picture

In Ottawa, who stands up for Alberta?  (Edmonton Journal Editorial)

Quote:

Well, well, well! This is what being "In" in Ottawa looks like for Edmontonians. After Stephen Harper's cold shoulder to the jaw on the Expo 2017 bid, it will be blackly amusing to watch the city's invisible backbench MPs in the next election trying to explain to voters how crucial it is to have their Conservative "voices" in the government caucus.

In a town and province where publicly condemning Conservative governments is a rare step of last resort, an infuriated Mayor Stephen Mandel wasted no time in laying blame for the feds' refusing to financially support the city's bid for the $2.3-billion event. He blasted Alberta MPs, Edmonton Conservative MPs and, specifically, Public Works Minister Rona Ambrose for their failure to sell the project.

....

Alberta's lone NDP MP, Linda Duncan, was shocked by this call, and unlike her mum local peers, in a position to actually say so. (Although she must be smiling secretly at how much more easily she will now be reelected.)

And perpetual NDP Edmonton East candidate Ray Martin, among others, has got to be licking his chops at a brighter future for opposition candidates.

Centrist

The politics of this decision for the Cons is obviously not good.

But the economics of a $2.3 billion world's fair in Edmonton are not good either. Expo '86 in Vancouver had a huge pool of visitors to draw from - Seattle just under 2 hours away up I-5, Portland a few more hours away and the huge California market a relatively few more hours away.

Edmonton, so far north, doesn't have either the cache of Vancouver or the markets to draw from, it being an 11 - 13 hour drive from Vancouver alone. A world's fair in Edmonton would be a $2.3 billion bust IMHO.

Lou Arab Lou Arab's picture

Centrist wrote:
.

Edmonton, so far north, doesn't have either the cache of Vancouver or the markets to draw from, it being an 11 - 13 hour drive from Vancouver alone. A world's fair in Edmonton would be a $2.3 billion bust IMHO.

 

I certainly hope that's the argument Conservative MPs and candidates use on the doorstep in Edmonton.  :)

6079_Smith_W

Centrist wrote:

Edmonton, so far north, doesn't have either the cache of Vancouver or the markets to draw from, it being an 11 - 13 hour drive from Vancouver alone. A world's fair in Edmonton would be a $2.3 billion bust IMHO.

Yes, just like that Calgary Olympics debacle. A truly sad example next to Vancouver and Montreal.

Aristotleded24

Centrist wrote:
Edmonton, so far north, doesn't have either the cache of Vancouver or the markets to draw from, it being an 11 - 13 hour drive from Vancouver alone. A world's fair in Edmonton would be a $2.3 billion bust IMHO.

Baloney. Edmonton has a major airport from which the vast majority of major Canadian cities west of Montreal have direct access, and international flights would not have trouble connecting through Calgary or Vancouver. There's no reason to believe it couldn't draw people from several places.

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

Hey, anything that saps the Con vote is good, may or may not end with them losing some more Edmonton area seats, but it does mean they will have to plug resources to hold what they can, which reduces what they can spend elsewhere. Now if only they could say or do something that would really piss off the Calgary and/or rural Alberta voters.

6079_Smith_W

And of course, if they had to pick a place on their home turf to stiff, it would be Redmonton.

Cueball Cueball's picture

This must be fall-out from Pat Martin exposing the secret deal between the Consrvative and the BQ to ruin the country.

6079_Smith_W

Nah, I can't imagine anyone wanting to go to Banff or Jasper either. Middle of nowhere. And they pale in comparison to the sights and smells of False Creek. How are those condos selling, anyway?

Centrist

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Baloney. Edmonton has a major airport from which the vast majority of major Canadian cities west of Montreal have direct access, and international flights would not have trouble connecting through Calgary or Vancouver. There's no reason to believe it couldn't draw people from several places.

The 6-month long summer world's fair known as Expo '86 in Vancouver had ~24 million visits. Granted, many of these were return visits but the key was Vancouver's relative close proximity along the coastal I-5 corridor (Today's population: WA - 6.7 million, OR - 3.8 million, CA - 37 million) with freeway access to around 48 million today within one/two days drive.

A huge Expo '86 television marketing campaign was launched in the Washington State, Oregon, and California markets prior to and during the world's fair, which also espoused Vancouver as a desirable tourist destination. It paid off big time. During the summer of 1986, instant campgrounds popped up everywhere in Metro Vancouver right up to the U.S. border and they were full. Even instant hotels popped up. Every hotel/motel in the region was booked solid.

Sure some people flew into Vancouver for Expo '86 but the vast majority of visits were by the rubber tire crowd. Toronto and Montreal also have the distinct advantage of being close to the vast rubber tire crowd in the U.S. Northeast.

But Edmonton doesn't fit the bill. Not only does it not have freeway access from Metro Vancouver (it's also a 11 - 13 hour drive), but, no offense to Edmonton, it's also not seen as a desirable tourist destination. While some people would fly into Edmonton, those numbers would not make the fair a success in IMHO.

Just look at the 1984 world's fair in New Orleans. It was plagued with attendance problems and was forced to declare bankruptcy.

In order for a world's fair to be a success you need two things: The location must be an attractive tourist destination and it must also be accessible to a very large market, with good freeway links, in relatively close proximty. Edmonton has none of those attributes. And then the site location itself (Expo '86 was situate on a fantastic site along False Creek) and marketing are also paramount. Frankly, neither Calgary nor Winnipeg would fit the bill either. Just the way these things work.

PS. I had no idea that Edmonton was vying for a world's exposition until I read the first post in this thread.

 

Aristotleded24

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Nah, I can't imagine anyone wanting to go to Banff or Jasper either. Middle of nowhere. And they pale in comparison to the sights and smells of False Creek. How are those condos selling, anyway?

LOL!

Besides, if you go to [url=http://flyeia.com/travel_planning/arrivals]Edmonton Airport's arrival page,[/url] you see that they take flights from as far away places as San Fransisco, Chicago, Seattle, Minneapolis, Denver, and Las Vegas.

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

Edmonton doesn't have an international airport, Leduc does.Innocent

Pogo Pogo's picture

I agree with Centrist.  Yes the number of people coming by plane to Vancouver or Edmonton would be similiar.  But that needs to be combined with a large pull from local traffic.  I could see people coming from Saskatoon, Calgary and perhaps Kamloops but after that it is hard to see where they are going to get the traffic from.

Lou Arab Lou Arab's picture

The Edmontonians behind the bid supported it as a means of 'putting Edmonton on the map' so to speak.  They see it as a way of re-introducing Edmonton to the world as more than a small, cold city far from Vancouver.

So I suspect the arguments being put forward here against the EXPO bid are not likely to appear on the lips of federal government spokespersons, as they will just further enfuriate Edmontonians.

Having said that - it's not like the fair has to be in big cities.  It's been in Knoxville and Spokane, so why not here in the 'chuk?

Centrist

Lou, I'm not against the Expo bid. I actually read about it here first. If they come up with the funds then go for it. But $2.3 billion is big coin, which again would require a large market in close proximity in order to make it at the gate. Again, Expo '86 literally saturated the California market with Expo television commercials - and they were well done at that. Edmonton doesn't have that defined close market.

Metro Seattle is also just 2 hours away as well. Everybody flooded up Interstate 5 into Vancouver back in 1986. Edmonton also doesn't have that freeway access and frankly is too far away up north.

As for Spokane, it lies along Interstate 90 - easy freeway access - and Expo '74 was on a much smaller scale - it had ~5 million visits - Expo '86 had ~24 million visits. Knoxville '82 also had excellent freeway access in close proximity to a large market area and that was also a smaller scale exposition.

Another problem is that no one really knows "Edmonton" south of the border. Having Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal as top of the mind Canadian cities is not always easy either. We all live in igloos, remember? Laughing

BTW, both the BC NDP and then Vancouver mayor Mike Harcourt opposed Expo '86. The money could have been spent better on social programs etc. Toronto's Olympic bid also had the same oppostion from the "Bread Not Circuses" crowd. But I don't know the position of Brian Mason and the AB NDP vids-a-vis the Expo '17 bid.

Lou Arab Lou Arab's picture

Centrist wrote:

Another problem is that no one really knows "Edmonton" south of the border. Having Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal as top of the mind Canadian cities is not always easy either. We all live in igloos, remember? Laughing

Agreed, but that's the whole point - to change that.

edmundoconnor

Lou Arab wrote:

In Ottawa, who stands up for Alberta?  (Edmonton Journal Editorial)

Not quite as thunderous as anti-Tory editorial in the Calgary Herald, but still a deep, dark rumble from the West. Go Duncan, Martin, and Cardinal!

Incidentally, I don't know if I've ever heard "Well, well, well!" outside of a 19th-century ripping yarn.

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

Centrist wrote:

Edmonton, so far north, doesn't have either the cache of Vancouver or the markets to draw from, it being an 11 - 13 hour drive from Vancouver alone. A world's fair in Edmonton would be a $2.3 billion bust IMHO.

 

Heck, it's almost that far from their own damned airport!

(What bizarre capitalist land flip scheme was behind placing the Edmonton International Airport halfway to Calgary?)

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Edmonton has a major airport . . .

 

Which, as I observed, is a ridiculous distance from the city.

Policywonk

Malcolm wrote:

Centrist wrote:

Edmonton, so far north, doesn't have either the cache of Vancouver or the markets to draw from, it being an 11 - 13 hour drive from Vancouver alone. A world's fair in Edmonton would be a $2.3 billion bust IMHO.

 

Heck, it's almost that far from their own damned airport!

(What bizarre capitalist land flip scheme was behind placing the Edmonton International Airport halfway to Calgary?)

This is a bit of an exageration, as Edmonton International at 26 km away is only a few kilometres further away from the city centre than Calgary International (17 km), and actually slightly closer than Pearson (27 km) is to downtown Toronto. The problem is a lack of good options to get there without driving. Yes I know you were kidding.

duncan cameron

The Cons have 70 percent of the Alberta vote, they don't take opposition from Edmonton, the mayor and the paper seriously. Sort of reminds me of the Liberals about the time of the pipeline debate. I think the NDP should be all over this one. A number of seats are at stake.

The NDP should be supporting building public facilities that belong to the public.

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

Policywonk wrote:

This is a bit of an exageration, as Edmonton International at 26 km away is only a few kilometres further away from the city centre than Calgary International (17 km), and actually slightly closer than Pearson (27 km) is to downtown Toronto. The problem is a lack of good options to get there without driving. Yes I know you were kidding.

 

But Edmonton is one of the few cities where federal agencies automatically approve car rental for any person at any level.  Toronto extends out to and beyond Pearson.  Parts of Calgary are very close to the Calgary airport.  It's about (IIRC) about 15 km to the EDGE of Edmonton.

Clearly there was some land speculator with an in.

Policywonk

Malcolm wrote:

Policywonk wrote:

This is a bit of an exageration, as Edmonton International at 26 km away is only a few kilometres further away from the city centre than Calgary International (17 km), and actually slightly closer than Pearson (27 km) is to downtown Toronto. The problem is a lack of good options to get there without driving. Yes I know you were kidding.

 

But Edmonton is one of the few cities where federal agencies automatically approve car rental for any person at any level.  Toronto extends out to and beyond Pearson.  Parts of Calgary are very close to the Calgary airport.  It's about (IIRC) about 15 km to the EDGE of Edmonton.

Clearly there was some land speculator with an in.

Most likely. Then there's Stanfield (Halifax International), which is halfway to Truro.

edmundoconnor

Policywonk wrote:

Most likely. Then there's Stanfield (Halifax International), which is halfway to Truro.

There are more than a few delegates to Halifax convention whose bank balances bear painful testimony to that fact.

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

Policywonk wrote:

Most likely. Then there's Stanfield (Halifax International), which is halfway to Truro.

 

But I've actually heard a credible explanation for that.  Because of weather patterns, an airport significantly closer to Halifax would experience more air traffic disruptions due to fog.  I don't know if it's true, but at least it's a coherent reason.

Centrist

Malcolm wrote:

Clearly there was some land speculator with an in.

My understanding was that the new locale for YEG, at the time, was situated so far outside of Edmonton's city limits due to the then future population projection of Edmonton reaching the 2 - 3 million range in relatively short order. Alas, that has not yet come to pass.

remind remind's picture

Apparently some  people do not realize there is about 40,000 summer tourist vehicles a day going to and from Edmonton on the BC HWY 5 connector alone.

 

This 49th parallel urban centric thinking is hooey.

Centrist

remind wrote:

Apparently some  people do not realize there is about 40,000 summer tourist vehicles a day going to and from Edmonton on the BC HWY 5 connector alone.

 

This 49th parallel urban centric thinking is hooey.

 

Remind, the closer and much larger Calgary area produces only ~10,000 vehicles per day along Hwy 1 during the peak summer period, west of the AB/BC border, in the Kicking Horse Canyon. I'd wager that the summer traffic volumes along 2-lane, Hwy 5 south of Tete Jaune Cache, would be lower.

http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/kickinghorse/khc_project_background.htm

 

And most of the traffic on Hwys 1/5 is Albertan that is BC-bound. Ever been to the Okanagan Valley during the summer? Around half of the license plates are Albertan.

 

remind remind's picture

You would lose your wager, there is much more traffic along Hwy 5 than the  #1.

 

ElizaQ ElizaQ's picture

 I just did a quick google for some tourism statistics.  Edmonton and area tops Calgary and area in total person visits from Albertans, other places in Canada and the US (more then double in this category). Calgary and area gets more  overseas visits. 

Centrist

remind wrote:

You would lose your wager, there is much more traffic along Hwy 5 than the  #1.

 

Well.... here' BC MoT's traffic counts for Hwy 5 just south of the Tete Jaune Cache junction (2009):

 

1. AADT (Annual Average Daily Traffic) - 2,261 vehicles/day

2. MADT (Monthly Average Daily Traffic) for the peak month of August - 4,200 vehicles/day.

 

http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/trafficData/tradas/reports/AllYears/2009/01/AV02...

 

remind remind's picture

ElizaQ wrote:
 I just did a quick google for some tourism statistics.  Edmonton and area tops Calgary and area in total person visits from Albertans, other places in Canada and the US (more then double in this category). Calgary and area gets more  overseas visits. 

Then a large % of those landing in Calgary, rent vehicles of some sort and drive up the Parkway, and then circle routs to Vancouver. Then we have all the tour buses leaving Vancouver and doing the circle route the other way, and going to Edmonton as well.

Worded my post sloppily though should have stated 40,000 persons average travel/day on Hwy 5 during the summer, not vehicles.

 

Traffic was slower in 2009 due to lack of tourists because of the Global economic situation. 2010 was up slightly but no where near what it was formerly.

Policywonk

Malcolm wrote:

Policywonk wrote:

Most likely. Then there's Stanfield (Halifax International), which is halfway to Truro.

 

But I've actually heard a credible explanation for that.  Because of weather patterns, an airport significantly closer to Halifax would experience more air traffic disruptions due to fog.  I don't know if it's true, but at least it's a coherent reason.

I believe you are correct. RCAF/CFB Shearwater (YAW) was the primary airport for Halifax until 1960.