College Tuition II

I understand what you're saying Sven, but I also think there is a further issue here. Sure, $5,000 can be doable for SOME students, but it begs another question. As students, where do our fees go? I don't know if it has been brought up in the previous thread (I'm at work, I only have enough time to slack off for a few minutes, not to read the whole thing [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img] )

Many would argue that we're paying more, and receiving less.

I'd have no qualms about spending tuition money if I felt I was getting my money's worth. But, I wonder if Canadian post-secondary students are getting what they deserve in return.

This works on a larger scale, where we are helping to pay the wages of administration staff, who is all too unwilling to help students, at least in my experiences, due to understaffing (and no, that's not me making an arguement for raising fees even MORE to hire more staff) to a smaller scale, where students are forced to pay a large sum of money to use services that are useless to some students (ie. The gym), yet they give students the option to opt out of other services (theatre, the university newspaper.) At Carleton, students were given the option to get their once-manditory donation to student run organizations, forcing many of them to downsize, and even threaten closure, all because of .25 or a $1.

VOTE 'YES'; SAVE STUDENT GROUPS!

Sure, students should have a right to opt-out of student run groups if they don't believe in them. But, if this is so, why must we pay hundreds of dollars in gym fees? Or to support service staff who don't answer emails, or return phone calls. $5,000 and the debt accumulated isn't THAT much, for SOME people, you're right. But I'd love to see a breakdown, which unfortunately I can't find, of how many of these fees are pointless and inconsequential to my education.

quote:Originally posted by jrose:
I understand what you're saying Sven, but I also think there is a further issue here. Sure, $5,000 can be doable for SOME students, but it begs another question.

I’ll get to your question in a second but there is one word I’d change in that last sentence: “SOME” to “MOST”. Now, back to your question:

quote:Originally posted by jrose:
As students, where do our fees go?

[snip]

I'd have no qualms about spending tuition money if I felt I was getting my money's worth. But, I wonder if Canadian post-secondary students are getting what they deserve in return.

And that’s a great question. For some mysterious reason that I can’t figure out, the increase in the cost of college over the last two or three decades has far outstripped the general inflation rate.

As with anything, students should get a good value for their dollar.

That all being said, at $5,000 per year, the extra earning potential that college grads get over non-college grads makes it a no-brainer decision, economically—and, even more importantly, for personal growth and development.

Now, to step back for a moment, there are people who have a need for assistance (often substantial assistance). But, the key word there is “need”.

quote:Originally posted by jrose:
I understand what you're saying Sven, but I also think there is a further issue here. Sure, $5,000 can be doable for SOME students, but it begs another question. As students, where do our fees go? I don't know if it has been brought up in the previous thread (I'm at work, I only have enough time to slack off for a few minutes, not to read the whole thing [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img] )

Many would argue that we're paying more, and receiving less.

I'd have no qualms about spending tuition money if I felt I was getting my money's worth. But, I wonder if Canadian post-secondary students are getting what they deserve in return.

This works on a larger scale, where we are helping to pay the wages of administration staff, who is all too unwilling to help students, at least in my experiences, due to understaffing (and no, that's not me making an arguement for raising fees even MORE to hire more staff) to a smaller scale, where students are forced to pay a large sum of money to use services that are useless to some students (ie. The gym), yet they give students the option to opt out of other services (theatre, the university newspaper.) At Carleton, students were given the option to get their once-manditory donation to student run organizations, forcing many of them to downsize, and even threaten closure, all because of .25 or a $1.

VOTE 'YES'; SAVE STUDENT GROUPS!

Sure, students should have a right to opt-out of student run groups if they don't believe in them. But, if this is so, why must we pay hundreds of dollars in gym fees? Or to support service staff who don't answer emails, or return phone calls. $5,000 and the debt accumulated isn't THAT much, for SOME people, you're right. But I'd love to see a breakdown, which unfortunately I can't find, of how many of these fees are pointless and inconsequential to my education.

I can only speak of my experience at McGill.

The gym fees are possibly the second most important student service. The most important would be the student services building. IIRC, all students pay 200$/semester for the student services building. That's just from a seperate fee, I'm sure they get more funding than that. There they have the student financial aid office, the first year office, dentistry, the health clinic, the sex shop, the sexual assault center, and the mental health office. I think that for services of critical importance such as a sexual assault center or a gym, it makes sense for everyone to pay, even if many people will never use such services. It helps the community as a whole and is mandatory to the survival of the community. The theatre is a valid service but is not a necessary service. Personally, I choose to pay for all services where I have the option. Those 0.25$ do not make a difference in my standard of living, but collectively, they improve campus. I know a lot of my friends were angry this past semester because there was a referendum on spending a dollar per student in a new fee to support this group called "midnight kitchen". They serve cheap vegan food. I thought that was a good idea.

As for administration, there are many who complain here that the mcgill admin is unsympathetic to students, that they can't find a good advisor, et cetera. In my personal experience, 90% were good people. It's a giant bureaucracy so it's about who you speak to and how.

Now with respect to total tuition, most undergraduate expenses are covered by the provinces. The tuition fees are a small fraction usually. Just the cost of the professors' salaries, the rooms, the lighting, the computer faciltiies, and the libraries should cost way more than the tuition.

[ 13 July 2007: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]

quote:Originally posted by jas:
Pardon me? I'd be happy if I could sock away $2500. How many "kids" are going to be able to do this here in Canada? Where are they living and what are they doing, what are they being paid, to make this a "piece of cake", let alone $7500?

Let’s see. I started carrying newspapers in fifth grade (did that through graduation). I mowed lawns for several summers. I worked as a student janitor during a couple of school years and did low-level school maintenance work a couple of summers (painting and that kind of thing). I rogued sunflower fields for part of a summer. I painted our hockey rink working for the municipality another summer (inside and out). That’s means I had to save $20 a week over seven years (that was between 27 and 34 years ago). To save $2,500 over seven years today means saving less than seven bucks a week—which is no doubt a crushing burden.

quote:Originally posted by jas:
And how do you earn $10,000 while you're in school full time? Your "bootstrap" math here isn't realistic.

Well, that’s $2,500 per year, or $48 per week. Can a college student find a job paying $8 an hour? That’s six hours a week. Again, another crushing burden.

I don’t know what it’s like in Canada, but it’s damned near impossible to find kids today willing to mow lawns (as an example). One of my sig other’s 16-year old nephews and a buddy started a lawn service (thankfully) so we hired him. We pay him $30 (which is his going rate) and it takes him an hour and a half to mow and trim our lawn. He’s so busy with work that he has to turn down jobs. So, let’s do some math:

Let’s say that he and his buddy can each do three lawns a day like that. That’s $90 for the day (each). Let’s say his gas for the mower cost him about $5 (and that’s high). So, he’s effectively clearing about $85 per day or $425 per week (or, for a twenty week mowing season, that’s $8,500).

No, it won’t take too long to save $5,000 bucks as a kid for college.

It's an education issue too though. I had a high school job, at $8.00 an hour, about 12 hours per week. At that point I had all the time in the world. Had a school counsellor, or a financial advisor of some sort been accessible (in retrospect I should have known to go to one on my own accord, but you don't think of these things at 16) I would have been more prepared. Saved more. Been in less debt now. Worked more hours. These people didn't seem accessible in my school system and my high school did a very poor job of teaching the realities of financing.

quote: So, you tend to look at the “extreme cases”. I do, too. And in those instances, where a student has a real need, then given them help. MOST kids don’t have that need.

Well then, there aren't enough programs out there for these youth. Sure, some of these cases might be extreme, but all of them aren't completely rare.

Especially in the case of hidden disabilities. A teen who struggles with reading comprehension, writing, grammar skills, who takes a day to do their homework, where another student might take an hour, might not realize his/her setbacks. There might not be a set diagnosis, putting him/her eligible for a particular scholarship. There are thousands of people out there struggling, not just a few small cases. There aren't thousands of scholarships also available.

quote:Originally posted by jas:
I think the main thrust of your argument really is: "kids are so lazy these days".

A lot of them are. Well put.

Not everybody has parents who are able to educate them on issues such as debt, or education finance, not being in the best positions regarding these themselves.

I'm going to quote this article, not because I wrote it ( [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) but because I think it sheds some light on the additional costs that students with disabilities face, that are not always covered by the school system, while at the same time those with both physical and invisible disabilities MIGHT not be able to work like their peers.

quote: Approximately 10 per cent of students enrolled in post-secondary education have a form of a physical or learning disability, according to the National Educational Association
of Disabled Students (NEADS), making it crucial that there are no barriers stopping potential students from enrolling.

“That funding needs to trickle down to support students and services,” says Smith. Without this support, thousands of disabled students may be denied access to university, simply because they cannot cover the costs. Many disabled students must incur financial burdens that other students may not. For example, the price of tutors, technological equipment and medical supplies would be unfathomable for most students, but many students with disabilities find it difficult to work while going to school.
“They need to have access to enhanced textbooks, technology and software,” says Smith, who says that while university centres are doing their best to provide this support, more funding is needed.

quote: Actually, I don't think it's about "extreme" cases at all. I think Sven had the good fortune of being able to live at home with his parents or another caregiver, not having to pay rent or contribute financially to the household in any way, and apparently had few chores to do since he had all this time to work for his own gain and play sports.

Exactly! Thank you! I know extreme was a wrong term, and you're very right.

quote:Originally posted by Sven:
Fidel, after that long-winded tirade against everything from "daddy's credit card" to George Bush, do you think that $5,000 in annual undergraduate tuition is outrageous?
Of course you do.

You have no idea, do you. Not every kid lives in a city that has a university. For out of town kids, they only wish it was that much. Even in Canada, out of town kids are looking at borrowing $15 to $18, 000 bucks for tuition, books, and living expenses. $5 thousand bucks? What's that?. So long ma, so long pa. Sweet city college here I come. Well, maybe in a few years time after I save up enough or hawk my soul to the bank. And with interest rates on Canadian student loans at anywhere from 8.5 to 11 percent, going into hawk for the right to an education isn't what it used to be.

quote:But what is truly outrageous is what passes for "outrageous" these days. What is "outrageous" is that 2.7 billion people live on $2 a day or less. A young person having to work hard to pay a paltry $5,000 in annual tuition is not.

Don't change the subject now. They're too busy waiting for the promise of a third world capitalist economic long run to kick-in. They haven't got time for higher education or any deviation away from the daily struggle in general.

Post-secondary used to be somewhat affordable, somewhat realistic for the average North American. A news report from last year said their were over 200, 000 eligible for college American students denied loans. So your solution is that they work McNight shifts and save up a measly $5 thousand bucks. I know $5,000 bucks was a lot of money when you went to school, Sven. Times have changed. Kids in Germany, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, TURKEY of all countries, just go to school.

quote:Originally posted by jas:
Just a question, Sven: were girls mowing lawns, working for the municipality and roguing sunflower fields in your day? Were kids from the poor side of town doing this? If they weren't, what great, easily-found jobs were they doing to earn their college tuition?

Or were these just the "extreme" cases in your town? Or maybe they were "lazy"?

What prevents girls from mowing lawns, especially today?

The “poor side of town”? (laughing) We did not live in a wealthy community. It was just a small (2,000 people) rural farming community on the Canadian border (about a seven hours’ drive from a metropolitan area of any meaningful size—if you exclude Winnipeg).

It is laughable that most kids can’t earn a few extra bucks to save for college. If I were a kid today, I’d start a bathroom cleaning service—people hate cleaning bathrooms. I’d make a killing. I’ve told a niece and a nephew that they should consider just that. Bleh. They’d rather just hang out with friends. That’s okay. But, the opportunity is there.

I talk to business owners all the time. My office neighbor owns a small sandwich shop with her husband and it’s difficult to find kids to work for $7 an hour—who will consistently show up for work. Just fucking “show up for work”?? That’s the standard now??

We have a lake home about two hours north of here (the Twin Cities). Our home is just outside of a small town. It is next to impossible to find people (kids) to do any work. Other lake home owners complain about the same thing. For the life of me, we couldn’t find a kid interested in mowing and trimming our lawn. It’s astounding. There is so much work opportunity up there for kids and they don’t even know it.

quote:Originally posted by Fidel:
So your solution is that they work McNight shifts and save up a measly $5 thousand bucks. I know $5,000 bucks was a lot of money when you went to school, Sven. Times have changed.

Indeed they have. Saving $5,000 in today’s world (as opposed to 35 years ago) should be much easier. If I were working as a kid today (doing the same stuff I did 35 years ago), I would have saved $20,000, not $7,500.

By the way, I’ve never meant to say it is “easy” or “effortless” to earn and save money for college. Yeah, it takes hard work. But, who does that hurt?

quote:Originally posted by jas:

Doing what? Your example must apply to life in a large urban centre.

You think there are more earning opportunities in a remote rural farming community that in a urban area?

quote:Originally posted by Free_Radical:

Except that they don't - or at least not as many as go to school in Canada.

Except that some of us realize a large percentage of those already educated Canadians obtained their degrees, diplomas, apprenticeships and post-secondary educations in general at a time when post-secondary was affordable.

PSE isn't affordable today, and Canada has an annual doctor shortage of 500 GP's per year. The Yanks don't care how many doctors they have as long as rich people and those lucky enough to afford health insurance can see a doctor when needed. Like Michael Moore says about the shorter waiting times for medical procedures in that country: They've got 50 million people not even in the queue right off the bat.

People in Germany and France can live on a waiter or waitress' wages. That's just not true here in North America.

Next to the U.S., Canada has the largest low skill, lowly paid non-unionized workforce. There is more pressure for kids to get an education in North America, and a large percentage of them can't find work in their fields after graduating but are still obligated to pay back tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt.

Canada doesn't export nearly $900 Billion dollars worth of manufactured goods and services like the highly-skilled German workforce. What we do is export cheap fossil fuels and massive amounts of hydro-electric power to the States in propping up our newly minted trillion dollar economy since Brian Baloney made it easier for the Yanks to take our valuable resources off our hands. No wonder there's no money for post-secondary in this Northern Puerto Rico. Get a McJob kid! Because we've got big business to support with reduced per barrel oil royalties and tax breaks for profitable multinationals. There will be no free ride for Canadians in the mean time.

With defunding of post-secondary in North America, fewer and fewer new universities and colleges have been built. In the state of California alone, there were 21 super-prisons built to one new university in the last 20 years. Meanwhile, Asian countries are cranking out engineers and doctors like there's no tomorrow.

And with pay as you PSE, Canada still doesn't rate in the top ten most competitive economies in the world, like: Finland, Sweden, Norway, and Denmark, countries where PSE is affordable, and where governments have not stolen $52 Billion dollars from unemployment insurance and job slash job training funds.

Doesn't answer my question. Your claim is not credible.

quote:Originally posted by Sven:

What prevents girls from mowing lawns, especially today?

PS: you didn't answer the question here, either. Were girls mowing lawns then? Were they getting the jobs with the municipality? Were they roguing sunflower fields? If they weren't, what were they doing?

[ 13 July 2007: Message edited by: jas ]

quote:Originally posted by jas:

PS: you didn't answer the question here, either. Were girls mowing lawns then? Were they getting the jobs with the municipality? Were they roguing sunflower fields? If they weren't, what were they doing?

I don't recall if girls were mowing lawns 35 years ago. They were roguing in the sunflower fields and they did have jobs at the municipality. So, what's your point?

That's amazing, even for 35 years ago. (Which, by the way, would be 1972.) What did she do?

quote:Originally posted by jas:
That's amazing, even for 35 years ago. (Which, by the way, would be 1972.) What did she do?

She, too, carried newspapers starting in fifth grade through graduation. She worked in one of the three or four local restaurants. She painted houses with my older brother. And did other odd jobs here and there. She was a bit less invovled in extra-curricular activies during the school year than I was and, so, she had more hours to work.

quote:Originally posted by Fidel:
How long did it take her to save $12 G's, Sven? In what decade ?.

About seven years.

quote:Originally posted by Fidel:
Because personal savings rates aren't nearly what they used to be, in case you haven't noticed.

That's true. But wages are more than double what they were 35 years ago, making saving $12,000 today much easier than saving $12,000 was 35 years ago.

quote:Originally posted by Sven:

But wages are more than double what they were 35 years ago, making saving $12,000 today much easier than saving $12,000 was 35 years ago.

LOL, and the cost of living hasn't changed at all, right? Maybe it even went down??

That's strange, because spending power has decreased.

In any case, we should know by now that when Sven presents personal anecdotal evidence from 3 decades ago in small town Minnesota? (is it?) that it necessarily speaks for current generations in all conditions in contemporary North America. Because Sven had help as a kid and found jobs with little problem, so should today's kids, whether they're from Kamsack Saskatchewan, or Toronto Ontario. They should all be able to have the same advantages and opportunities as Sven did 35 years ago. Because that's how things work all over, right?

quote: And $2500 pays your tuition, maybe some books, for a single year.

$2,500 barely covers 15 credit hours (a semester at SFU) which totals $2,266.50. Add in supplementary fees and you're over $2,500. Add in textbooks and you're well above that.

When I graduated from law school in 1994, my annual tuition was $8,500. It was an absolute steal. I’ve earned that back more times than I can count and would do it again in a heartbeat.

If my choice as a young person was to (1) work hard, go into debt, and get a college education at a tuition rate of five grand a year or (2) not go to college, the decision would be simple.

Does anyone know of a lender where Canadian students can borrow at five percent ?. That's not bad compared to the setup in Canada.

Still, it's a corporate welfare setup for banks and loan sharks in the states. Taxpayers are on the hook for the other 4.5 percent. It's socialism for the rich in order to prop up an ideology that doesn't work any better now than it did in the 1930's.

Credit as a Public Utility: the Key to Monetary Reform

I think we ended up with Genoan type bankers not Medici's.

[ 13 July 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:Originally posted by jas:
I guess we should all become lawyers and doctors too, if only the schools themselves would let us. No point going to school unless the job you get after will pay off your debt many times over. Teachers, biologists, social workers need not apply.

Law school and college are two different things. In that second paragraph, I was talking about college, not law school. Again, with respect to college, the choice is a no-brainer, even if one does not go on to law school or other advanced education.

quote:Originally posted by Fidel:
Jas, according to Sven the kids just have to save up a piddling $5000, and they're on easy street to college town. All those incidentals like rent, groceries, books and transportation to and from should be considered mere afterthoughts. They can mow lawns and save thousands. Mowing lawns is such a good trade now that it looks an even surer thing than a college education after the banks and middlemen mafia types are paid off.

I never said it was “easy street”. If fact, I explicitly said above that it’s not “easy”. It’s hard work but far from insurmountable. And, like I also said above, for those who truly need assistance (i.e., they are not able to work or a variety of other factors), I think the government should help them. But, that is a small minority of people. If a student is not willing to work hard and pay for as much of their education as possible (for which they will personally benefit), why the hell should I pay for it?

You should go on the campaign trail and give campus pep talks on how to pay for college. Tell them if they want to avoid mafia-style usury, all they have to do is work harder. A lot harder. I think you'll get told where to direct yourself by kids already half asleep from pulling McNight shifts and who've mowed their fair share of lawns.

Meanwhile, kids in other rich nations just go to school and aren't hounded for student loan payments at anywhere from six to 18 percent interest. Conservatives will find any excuse for trickle up economics other than suggest something's wrong. It's a no-brainer for some people apparently.

Anybody throwing around figures of $5000 bucks a year has already admitted to being out of touch with the current situation. Conservatives tend to rely heavily on anecdotal evidence to prove they aren't dealing in the here and now.

[ 13 July 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

On a case by case basis?

quote:Originally posted by jrose:
On a case by case basis?

No. You establish standards and guidelines.

quote:Originally posted by jrose:

And how should the government decide who is in need of assistance and who is not?

That's a no brainer for conservatives. The banks and feds themselves are the ones who should profit from student loans as well as taxpayer handouts. And those students denied federal student loans can always resort to dealing with loan sharks and donating their time to low wage philanthropy for an education.

And if a quarter century worth of what amounts to indentured servitude for an education doesn't appeal to them all that much, there's always the military and going to war against the enemy loitering around in their own countries. In exchange for donating your time and risking life and limb for imperialism, Canadians, too, have the real free market option to shoot poor people as time served for a taxpayer funded education.
Conservatives really do believe in socialism but only when it suits their imperialist needs.

quote:Originally posted by Stephen Gordon:

Why? Governments do this all the time in other contexts. Nor do I recall feeling insulted because I had to fill out a few forms in order to obtain student assistance.

[ 13 July 2007: Message edited by: Stephen Gordon ]

[Anectodal on] A friend of mine paid $80 dollars a year administration fees in France a number of years ago. She came home with degrees in three languages. Kids in Spain and France and Sweden and all over just don't understand what student loan debt is. Canada has one of the most complicated student loan application systems with its gauntlet of forms ,rules and procedures in the industrialized world along with paying the highest interest rates on student loans.

OSAP was good to me, and MANY other students, and I'd never completely knock it, but I know young people who wanted nothing more to go to school, but did not meet the criteria set forth by OSAP. However, OSAP did realize this, to a certain point, and has revamped in recent years. Not flawless, but slowly improving.

quote: OSAP eligibility criteria revamped: Parental income will play smaller role in determining eligibility
Queen’s Journal, Jan 20
By STACEY BOWMAN

Students may be able to look forward to an increase in their OSAP funds in the near future.

The provincial government is planning to rework the current eligibility requirements for OSAP to make them more accurate and efficient indicators of financial need, according to a recent Toronto Star article.

Mary Anne Chambers, minister of Training, Colleges and Universities, told the Toronto Star the current emphasis on parental income is unfair to students whose parents do not contribute to their education.

AMS President Chrissie Knitter is pleased with Chambers’ initiative.

“I’m glad to see Minister Chambers’ commitment to reform the OSAP program,” Knitter said. “It’s another indication of the government’s commitment to higher education.”

Although she acknowledged the re-evaluation of eligibility requirements is a good step, Knitter said her greatest concern is that the maximum allowable loan is too low.

“There are a few major problems with OSAP criteria,” Knitter said. “The biggest problem is the maximum allowable loan limit has not increased in the last 10 years, while tuition has increased [by more than] 137 per cent.”

The current maximum OSAP loan for a single student is $275 per week, a total of $9,350 over a maximum study period of 34 weeks.

Knitter said she is also concerned with the role parental income plays in determining a student’s eligibility for assistance is often unfair.

“The assessment of need is not fair to all students,” Knitter said. “It doesn’t allow for special circumstances. One of those circumstances would be if parents are unable to contribute to their child’s education at the amount the government expects.”

Teresa Alm, associate University registrar of student awards, said parental income and a family’s other financial commitments play an important role in determining the funding allocated to a student through OSAP.

My brother in law started saving for college around age 12, circa 1990. By age 17 he had some 30, 000$ saved up, from doing things like working in a furniture store. He was also doing tons of extracurricular activities and going on lots of dates. There are some key differences though. He didn't need to pay for any necessities, just luxuries. And because he was intelligent he never spent much time on homework. Less intelligent HS students who literally need two hours a day for their homework might not be able to work part-time.

In my own experience, I'd bide my time reading magazines and journals and playing video games. My first part-time job was at 18 but I wish it were at 16. My HS had class 8am to 6pm due to religion courses so it was difficult to work part-time during the year. The montreal economy was crap and it was very difficult for a student to find part-time employment. I was perfectly willing to work for minimum wage... but companies would offer like 25 hours a week, or 15 hours a week, and they would demand that you be available all the time to suit their scheduling needs. Sometimes I would get home at 5am and go to my other job at 8am, and repeat for a few days in a row. I was doing one job at minimum wage, the other 0.70$ higher; neither wanted to give more than 25 hours a week. I was scrambling to pay for books. Mercifully, near the end of that summer, I found two consecutive weekends where I could go guinea pig for algorithme pharma. Thanks to those 620$ (tax free!), I had money for books.

So my conclusion is yes, some opportunities like Sven describe are available, but not always. We should encourage kids to take such opportunities, but not expect that every kid can do so all the time.

[ 13 July 2007: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]

quote:Originally posted by jrose:
I think that point feeds into the fact that kid's aren't necessarily lazy, but a lot of them, myself included in my teen years, don't know the value of money. And without that understanding, it's very difficult to save and prioritize. Sounds like Sven was one of the ones who understood it, but I wish I was sat down at 15, and my parents helped me map out a savings plan. Instead, I was 19, and all of a sudden had no money for school, and my parents had been too embarrassed, or ashamed to ever confront me with the fact that they couldn't afford to send me and that we weren't financially prepared until alomst the day I left for school!

That is very true, jrose. I think that society no longer inculcates young people with an understanding of money, savings, and the value of hard work from an early age. As a little kid, I (and my siblings) knew I was going to school after high school. It was just an expectation that my folks had of us and we (the kids) were going to save and prepare for it. But, that was “old school”, as it were. Now, people expect “others” (“the rich”, the government, or whomever) to take care of those things and personal responsibility be damned. As a result, they are ill-prepared for the responsibilities of early adulthood.

In my own situation, it wasn’t money that made the difference (I literally received a grand total of $200 from my dad after turning 18). It was the attitude and world-view of my parents that made all of the difference. Same with my sig other. Her dad was a janitor with an eighth grade education and they had even less money than we did. But, Ms. Sven’s mother emphasized school, hard work, savings, etc., etc. and that made all of the difference for Ms. Sven (and she benefits from that to this very day). Family money and connections are simply not essential to get into school, to get through school, and to start on a productive career.

So, I think you’re right in the sense that it’s not the kids’ fault (ever read “Lord of the Flies”?). It’s society’s fault.

quote:Originally posted by Sven:

In my own situation, it wasn’t money that made the difference (I literally received a grand total of $200 from my dad after turning 18). It was the attitude and world-view of my parents that made all of the difference. Same with my sig other. Her dad was a janitor with an eighth grade education and they had even less money than we did. But, Ms. Sven’s mother emphasized school, hard work, savings, etc., etc. and that made all of the difference for Ms. Sven (and she benefits from that to this very day). Family money and connections are simply not essential to get into school, to get through school, and to start on a productive career.

Right, Sven, so the rent you were paying your parents to live at their home was at market value? And you bought your share of the food of course? And your own clothes? Did you have a car? How and what did you pay for your car when you were going to college, if your lawn-mowing and sunflower field money was for tuition? You mentioned you did a lot of sports. How did you buy your sports clothes and equipment with your odd-job money that was for college?

And how many thousands did you save up while in school full time, and paying tuiotion and rent and food and buying clothes and gas and parking and car maintenance? This is not even including furniture (since, presumably, you didn't need any, living at your parents), or god forbid, entertainment - since young folks hate entertainment and socializing. You suggested earlier that it shouldn't be too hard for a full-time student to save up $10,000 while they're in school. Were you able to do this, while paying market-value rent to your parents?

That's right! What the world needs more of now are entrepreneurial types - workers to go out and work for a living - and lot fewer piggy bank pinkos loitering around college campuses. Education is for commies!

jas, you have such hostility and anger about personal initiative. Why is that?

It's as if a bunch of people work hard and succeed and that makes another bunch of people look lazy for not working as hard and look like beggars for demaning funding from the first group. Can't have that, now can we?

Give money to the truly needy. But, for 90% of middle class students, they can work and don't need to suck on the public teat and have everything handed to them.

[ 13 July 2007: Message edited by: Sven ]

quote:Originally posted by jas:
So anyway, how much money were you able to sock away while working and attending college?

It was socked away into tuition and living expenses. I think that in my last year of college (22 years ago), annual tuition and fees were about $2,500 per year.

quote:Originally posted by Sven:
jas, you have such hostility and anger about personal initiative. Why is that?

It's as if a bunch of people work hard and succeed and that makes another bunch of people look lazy for not working as hard and look like beggars for demaning funding from the first group. Can't have that, now can we?

Give money to the truly needy. But, for 90% of middle class students, they can work and don't need to suck on the public teat and have everything handed to them.

I have nothing against personal initiative. I also got myself through school, with only $5000 debt at the end, but taking almost a decade to complete it (well, I took my time). I'd comment however on your un-ironic use of that notion further, but not tonight.

As far as the 90% of middle class students "sucking on the public teat" I'm not sure what you mean. I don't know anyone who has got out of paying their student debts without claiming bankruptcy - and that's pretty rare. A student loan in Canada is a contract between the student and the bank. There's no public teats that I know of.

quote:The counter generalization is that most people today have it really tough, like it's the 1930s or something.

Well, it's not the 1970's either. Get to know the difference.

quote:It was socked away into tuition and living expenses. I think that in my last year of college (22 years ago), annual tuition and fees were about $2,500 per year.

Oh, you mean you didn't sock away $10,000? Like you suggest others do? Even with that cheap, cheap $2500/yr. tuition?

quote from above: quote: Earn $10,000 for tuition while in school and you're left with $7,500 in debt.

Fair enough. I'm glad at least you're admitting that there is a difference monetarily between the 1970's and the 2007's.

quote:Originally posted by jas:
Just a question, Sven: were girls mowing lawns, working for the municipality and roguing sunflower fields in your day? Were kids from the poor side of town doing this? If they weren't, what great, easily-found jobs were they doing to earn their college tuition?

Or were these just the "extreme" cases in your town? Or maybe they were "lazy"?

Yah, we females were also working.
I had a paper route.
I babysat, I worked in retail part time.
I got full time summer jobs from the time I was 15 on. So did my brother; so did my sister.

It wasn't unusual in the '60's or the '70's.

quote:. . . student loan borrowers are currently subject to interest rates that are more than double the government's actual costs of
borrowing . . .

report pdf

They have to try and make it up somewhere for what they don't collect from big energy companies in green taxes and corporate profits leaving the country every day.

[ 19 July 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

If countries like Ireland, Scotland, Sweden, Turkey, Germany, Norway and Finland can provide freely accessable higher education to their citizens, and while at the same time not possessing nearly the same amount of oil and natural gas and electrical power siphoned off to the U.S. on the cheap, then I think Canada can do better.

And some of those countries with a dearth of natural resources listed above are actually more economically competitive than natural resource-rich Canada, fossil fuel inflated GDP and all.

Not only are tuition fees for post-secondary in Canada some of the highest in the world, Canada is now experiencing shortages of family physicians to the tune of 500 per year. Aspiring doctors frequently cite high interest payments on student loan debt as a deterrent to becoming a family physician over the course of 12 years of education, training and interning before practicing and earning higher incomes.

There are thousands of kids being denied student loans every year. And it's not because they lack the merit or scholastic ability. They just don't have thousands of dollars required to access what was once considered a basic human right in this Northern Puerto Rico with massive, absolutely massive amounts of fossil fuels and hydro-electric power being siphoned off by the Yanks while Canadian politicians are on the take.

If the issue was another tax break for foreign-based energy conglomerates taking our valuable stuff off our collective hands, they'd be all over it like blue on sky.

quote: wow, never thought I'd see a thread on babble saying students should effectively go fuck themselves and that tuition and loan payments are somehow "fair"

The "thread" doesn't actually say anything. It is individual posters who say something. Just about anyone can drop into babble and say something nonesensical, but babble shouldn't be blamed.

I have no doubt that the progressive position is that tuition for university is way out of line, an insult to Canada's democratic values.

I think lots of other babblers think the same thing.

Closing for length.