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Love that attitude Tommy
Seriously though, its nice to smile around here from time to time.
As for the learning environment I feel I've learned a lot here too, both as a lurker and since I started posting. This has been in the last couple years so obviously the environment wasn't too hostile. I'm here to learn however, which was certainly the point of lurking; I'm not sure how many of babble's newest members (since the relaunch) would say the same. On the other hand there have been a number of new members who I think are valuable additions to Babble. Its very hard to determine why someone is here, and without that, almost impossible to accomodate learning (as opposed to accomodating trolling). Needless to say I have no easy answer!
I would rather hope it was a place to have fun. Learning is fun, as I discovered after I graduated high school.
Very good question Caissa. And I would say both yes, and no. I have learned a great deal here about; the conflicts in the Middle East, historical happenings which appear to be still impacting politics and social underpinnings today, behind the scenes political happenings, news before it becomes news and how to make news happen and a myriad of other things. However, I think it is a by-product of participation and most often not a deliberate activity of setting out to learn, hostile environment, or no hostile environment.
When I joined back in 2004, I found it very classist, and very hostile to those who were determined not to be part of the class configuration. Today, I find this "class' component much less so. However, I find it to be more hostile in other areas. IMV, it has been just a matter of the hostile component changing parameters, or positions.
But yet like Michelle, and Tommy, I have learned, a great deal, and perhaps would not have, if people were not so "emphatic" in their positions. And, I have even learned from some of those with whom I have had strong personality classes with.
As for the most studies of learning, I would have to see citings of that, as schools are really not the most relaxed environments in any level. Also, social change has not occured from "relaxed" environments, it has occured from tensions arising like a coiled spring, releasing its tension. And at the nub of this, is the fact that rabble/babble is the voice of those who are working towards social change and we as a people cannot afford to be relaxed about it, and perhaps that spills over here.
I'm not going to search for studies but learning/performance is a bell curve. If degree of tension is on the x access and performance is on the y access best performance takes place with an optimal amout of stress. Too little stress and there is no reason to get out of bed in the morning, too much stress and the yhockey player misses the wide open net even with lots of time to pot the puck.
So by relaxed I'm discussing an optimal amount of stress. Of course, stress should not be confused with disstress.
I don't think I agree with this statement. I've learned more through participation here than I did when I was just lurking, however without the lurking I'd probably have foundered right off the bat; sometimes just listening is the best form of participation. I deliberately set out to learn from my participation here, frankly anyone who is here to talk and not listen/learn, isn't likely making much of a contirbution to the Babble community. An unwillingness to listen and learn, and a boundless enthusiasm to talk (pontificate?), is a combination thats contributing to the proliferation of toxic threads, imo.
Isn't everything a bell curve? ;)
Yes, I concur with what you say caissa, as the reality is as stress grows, the ability to think rationally decreases, on the inverse bell curve. Hence the success of fear mongering blocking peoples ability to think clearly.
ETA
Its me d, don't think we said anything didn't from each other, other than the wording/terminology being different.
The one thing that I really learned on this web site was a completely different way to look at race and racism, in terms of the Holocaust in Europe and the ethnic cleansing of the Native people of the Americas and other aspects of the "colonial period" of imperialism. This largely due to Makwa and his insistance that this view be forwarded as a legitimate analysis, base in the idea that Hitler's imperial concept was essentially an attempt to reproduce the European imperial mode in Eastern Europe.
Previous to that point, I had always been convinced there was something unique about Hitler's project. I had always had a sense of this, and the evidence was there, obviously, but Makwa really put it together in a way that clarified this point.
Remind wrote: Isn't everything a bell curve? ;)
Nah, Calculus courses tend to be bimodal.
Well thats good, we have a pretty good record when it comes to agreeing I think, I'd hate to spoil it
PS: In my lurking years there were a few Babblers whose quality posts convinced me to sign up, even though they were almost never in agreement with each other; you were one.
Okay. I haven't read much in this thread but was directed here from this now-closed thread (which I did read): "More personal attacks ...".
I think there are at least a couple of things from that thread that are worth repeating:
and
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
I've learned a lot on babble and it is often the threads where people disagree the most passionately that are the most educational. I know sometimes they can get ruined by personal bickering and grudges but generally, I don't think babble is terminally toxic and that a lot of that just comes with the medium, that said I could see how it is probably much more frustrating for moderators who have to sift and judge the parts which most of us have the luxury of scrolling past. But I would advise a bit of caution about going too heavy on enforcing civility, I think it becomes murky territory. Its just so easy to imagine slights on the internet and to take everything the worst possible way. By making this the primary criteria for banning and moderation risks making 'personal attacks' even more important and central to the discussion(meta-arguments about who started what, how this statement is more insulting than intended, the unfairness of sympathizing with one jilted party over another)instead of making them disappear, which I think is probably not likely to happen.
I thought calculus was that white stuff they put on gravel roads to keep the dust down in the summer, like they do here every year.
I completely agree with that. Discussions where everyone basically agrees on something are insipid.
In my family, we have knock-down drag-out verbal discussions about politics, religion and all of the other subjects families should avoid. But, we all enjoy it and, over the years, I have learned much from those argumen...er, "conversations"!
Same with babble.
_______________________________________
Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
When I came to Babble, nigh on 5 yars ago, I was a bright eyed little 17 year old who was introduced to this board through another member and a current moderator. Ah, the good old days? I mean, I hopped right in and my eyes were opened to a lot of ideas and I found a lot of good information here that has really helped shape a lot of my world view. Oddly, a few people have commented in that strange RL Land that I have drifted neither right nor left, but away from politics. I'm actually inclined to agree with this. And this has really hampered my ways of participating on babble. However, if I make an off topic, off kilter bit of humour, I can still remain a member of the board, contribute in my own absurd way, and not have an early onset of cardiac trouble from stressing out over the little things. Of course, I'm fairly certain that this position is fairly unique to this thread's participants.
I've learned a lot from babble and there's some great people posting great stuff here. I wish certain things were moderated differently and it's frustrating at times, but I can't think of a board that isn't. I wouldn't wish the thankless job of moderating here on anyone.
Normally I'd avoid this sort of thread like a huge smelly plague. But just one thought.... The word "civility" strikes me as risky. I'd like to see people free to say fuck, that fuckin Harper is a fuckin louse, cuz he is. Not very civil. But "civility" is one of those words that gets used by those with power to shut up those without it who want to get passionate and express an honest feeling. It always makes me think of cops beating someone up, and then mainstream society going tut-tut when the victim gets angry and points out systemic oppression. Oh no, that's not civil! Maybe the word just pushes buttons for me. On the other hand, people here maybe could be kinder to one another, there sure seems to be a lot of anger that never gets disipated, and builds up til it explodes.
--
"One law for the lion and the ox is oppression" - Blake
I believe it was a moderator that once said that people might not be as inclined to hack away at eachother if they actually met face to face. There tends to be more of a capacity for letting bygones be bygones when the tone of a person's voice can soften the words being used, or at least put them it into a better context. A couple of weeks ago, my partner told me of an old Persian saying. It had to do with family squabbles in general, so it doesn't quite pertain to what transpires here sometimes, but perhaps it does have some relevance. Family members may quarrel sometimes, almost to the point of tearing into each other's flesh, but despite those occurrences, it is important that the bones be left undisturbed.
And I would add, encouraging a civil tone is consistent with warnings and suspensions. There is nothing civil about banning.
Personal attacks are unworthy of respect. Banning is a personal attack. If you object strongly to a post, delete or edit it, and suspend the poster. "Hate the sin, not the sinner" (one of the few useful religious statements I have run across).
I agree with that, Wilf. I would also say that I have no problem with swearing in general, it's swearing AT someone that is a problem. "George Bush is a fucking moron" is fine. "Fuck you!" or "YOU'RE a fucking moron" is a problem. That's kind of the way I was thinking about it when I was talking about civility. I don't care if people swear for emphasis - I do it all the time.
Also, when I said moderators could concentrate on civility, I wasn't thinking like, "You insulted so-and-so - you're banned!" I was thinking more along the lines of intervening and drawing attention to personal attacks before they turned into a flame war. I hate locking accounts, believe it or not. I just feel pressure to do so because of the way custom and policy has shaped itself over the years. However, there will always be the occasional person who just can't play nicely, no matter how many times they're guided in the right direction.
remind, you were mentioning that I did a lot of learning in the current restrictive environment. I would answer that I did WAY more learning in the first two or three years, before there was much banning, before there was much in the way of restrictions on what people were allowed to talk about here than now. I mean it when I say that if you dropped me from 2001 into the current babble, I probably wouldn't survive it.
babble hasn't always been the way it is now. In some ways it has improved, but in other ways, I think it hasn't. I think it's become much more insular when it comes to what opinions are open for discussion, and less civil and welcoming due to familiarity breeding contempt among people who have long-running feuds. And I think that excludes a lot of people who might not subscribe to the babble orthodoxy on every issue. I have also heard a number of times from newbies (particularly ones I've met in person) that they tried babble but got too badly hazed for saying the wrong thing, or wording something awkwardly, and they never came back. I find myself not wanting to encourage my non-babbler friends to check babble out because I'm afraid they'll be attacked if they cross an unwritten boundary.
Yes, there's that too. PMs have their place as well, and can be quite useful in adding dimension between online personalities. It's useful as well to be aware of how freely the invective can flow between anonymous participants who might otherwise have much more in common than what a limited medium can reveal.
I am pretty much my online personality. Actually, come to think of it, Babble has changed how I relate to people off-line. I am far less patient with people than I was before I came here.
It's taught me to articulate my views more forcefully.
Then you have come a long way Michelle, good for you! ETA:
You have stated that before about your non-babble friends and being afraid to invite them here etc... about 2-3 years ago, guess not much has changed. ;)
Remind wrote And caissa, isn't calculus something you get on your teeth? ;) :D
I've never studied Calculus but I think I might prefer a root canal.
You have stated that before about your non-babble friends and being afraid to invite them here etc... about 2-3 years ago, guess not much has changed.
Actually, I don't think I have said that before. Maybe you're thinking of someone else?