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I love babble. I left for a while to join the boards that grew out of this forum, but I came back - I missed this place too much. I tend to avoid the squabbles where things get personal. I have a lot of respect for the mods - there's no way I'd want to wade into those conflicts and have to sort everything out.
Well, in any case, as I mentioned above, I've felt like this for a while, and I've also had the experience of progressive friends joining and being frightened away by overly aggressive treatment if they've touched on one of the more hot-button topics around here. (The not-so-progressive friends who have joined and been chased away or banned doesn't bother me so much. :D ) I didn't feel like that when I first started babbling, though, which was much longer than 2-3 years ago.
I'm not saying I would never invite my friends to babble. I'm just saying that I would think long and hard before doing so, especially if I'm not absolutely positive about their political views on most subjects that come up, even if I know them to be generally left-leaning or progressive.
I'm not in a position to comment at any length at the moment, but I have been reading this, and I would also have trepidation about inviting a friend here. My sisters spouse lurked here for ages, registered, and lurked for about six more months before her first post. She is a well read and articulate person, a wonderful cook, a major league pet person, progressive, funny, and has feminist creds up the wazoo.
On her first post, she got hauled over the coals for an injudicious use of a possessive pronoun. She would have been a fine contributer here, but never came back.
I've always wanted to see us as having something of an educative role, but that means being able to positively engage people who both require and wish education. That means being a bit more tolerant about content.
Anyway, I'm starting to comment at length, and like I said, I can't right now. Maybe I'll say why on another thread.
The tone of babble was bound to change with the advent of the new software, which makes everyone more anonymous. All we know about each other (unless we have long memories) is screen name and date of joining. We can't read a babbler's most recent posts any more without a lot of effort. We don't even know whether they have made 50 or 5000 posts. We have no access to personal profiles that would put a more human face on the names. I don't even know where people live any more, whether they are male or female, their age, etc.
It must be a very cold environment for a newbie.
Ooh, let me guess... the feminism forum?
No, but that is.
While several people have brought forward some memories of babble past, and the modification of their perspective over the years, only a couple have hinted at changes in the world that we live in (or try to) and the violent disruptions in that world - and the prospect for humanity.
Is it not a world in which we have to try to - more than ever - get it right?
And is there not a need to allow for the re-formulation of old ideas?
Or are these just the musings of an old fart impatient with constant re-invention of the wheel in an IT age (I have learned much, here, despite my own predilection for book larnin').
I thought it could be something like that. He seems to take very personally the notion that the participants of a forum would dare attempt to raise the level of discourse in their space by empowering themselves to adopt some criteria that exclude one of his (chosen) styles.
No reflection on his personality, of course.
It is impossible to engage in serious critique with feminists in the feminism forum. It is not a healthy place.
Take your personal attacks and shove them.
Actually, I would have no problem if Spector chose to ignore the feminism forum and not post in it--it's a shame, of course, that he won't discuss in it. My problem is the ceaseless snide and cowardly 'wit' he chooses to lob about and every opportunity without offering anything of substance, or explaining the point of his disagreement.
When faced with that, ignorance would be far better.
That isn't commentary on his comments---those are gratuitous insults.
You jumped on his question to Oldgoat. A common occurrence on this board. Those of us who are going to survive and be comfortable on this board are those of us with thick skins. I'm not sure that's the type of board we really want.
And before I'm accused of ignoring the beam in my own eye-- yes, I can sling mud with the best of them.
Extremely well said. While it would be laughable for anyone to accuse me of "Muslim bashing" since I have devoted much of my time to the cause of the Palestinian people, I do find a double standard in so called liberal discussion forums where there is a clear green light to attack Christianity from any angle where that same luxury is not afforded vis a vis Islam or Judaism or even atheism. If discussions regarding the questioning or even attack upon certain religions are allowed for one religion than the only reasonable and proper "liberal" response would be to allow these discussions for all religions.
I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.
Just to answer the remarks about the software: first of all, the same kind of feuding went on in the old babble software too. We've only had the new one for four or five months.
I have seen a preview of the new upgrade and there are profile pages (happy happy joy joy!) and they're as good as, if not better than, the old ones in my humble opinion.
We can currently see a list of the threads a particular babbler has posted to in order of most recently updated thread. I think the reason it is done like that is so that we can see which threads we've posted in have been updated since we were last online.
When will the upgrade be made live? Not sure. I think soon, but I've thought that for a while, so maybe there's some kind of problem holding it back.
Don'tcha just love irony?
It occurred to me reading these threads that the behaviour on babble mimics the behaviour of our esteemed elected representatives in the House. Some think there's no "passion" unless they are flinging insults around, dragging up old feuds, and generally using it as a place to vent and show off, not for intelligent thought.
I can fling insults with the best of them, and if they're being flung at me, I sure as hell will. However, I'm learning to curb those childish instincts, largely lost in adulthood until the advent of discussion boards. I learned that personal insults are not allowed, but that wasn't apparent to me for some time as there's a lot of it that goes on without intervention.
Even here, with Michelle's post as a guideline, there's a personal attack in the thread.
I think the ban on personal attacks is going to take a lot of monitoring and feedback to posters, and enforcement. I think we have to help the mods out by simply reporting any unacceptable attacks without responding in kind, at least that would be my preference.
And Michelle, I think you are right on saying that addressing the issue of personal attacks will go a long way to solving a host of problems, including the recent problem in the Feminist Forum.
One tricky part is sometimes something might be personal to me but that's not known by other posters. I think in those cases, it's up to me to realize that my passionate personal response is not due to personal attack, but simply my own emotions about an issue. I cannot expect people on an anonymous board to know what trips my buttons. Even if they do know, it should not mean no one can discuss those issues openly.
I do think babble is a great place, because you can express your lefty thoughts without having to defend them from the righties. Even so, we still have plenty of room for discussion, disagreement, and learning.
I personally think the atmosphere in the House of Commons is toxic, and shouldn't be emulated. The bullying that goes on there is atrocious, and not the behaviour we teach our kids.
I think babble can do better than that, and mostly it does.
It's nothing now compared with what it has been in the past.
And unlike babble, it's mostly based on insincere posturing. MP's have very few real political differences when it comes right down to it. They all go out and have a beer together after the "show" is over.
Here on babble, we have genuine and gaping ideological differences. It's not the same as parliament at all.
No mater how bad its been getting around here I think that comparison is a little unfair saga, the House of Commons? There must be some other toxic place which we can be compared to which would sting a little less, perhaps the Sydney Tar Ponds?
I think this is a great thing for everyone to keep in mind... and if "emotional reactions" to some issues invariably result in personal attacks against those discussing them, perhaps just staying out of certain threads is a good idea. I'm now trying to stay away from topics of spirtuality around here for example, I can discuss these topics elsewhere, and I know from experience my reactions to the posts they draw here wouldn't be helpful.
And it's "fixed" to boot!