Violence or property damage at protests By: Michelle (103 replies) April 2, 2009 - 11:27amstatica wrote:one thing, By: Michelle (Apr 2 2009 - 3:14pm) Or do the "organizers" of By: Caissa (Apr 2 2009 - 3:12pm) I agree with you about that, By: Michelle (Apr 2 2009 - 3:12pm) That Ghandi...he never By: Ghislaine (Apr 2 2009 - 3:23pm) Caissa wrote: This thread is By: It's Me D (Apr 2 2009 - 3:08pm) I have to agree with By: statica (Apr 2 2009 - 3:05pm) Re: Violence or property damage at protests By: Caissa (Apr 2 2009 - 3:02pm) N.R.KISSED wrote:I also By: ElizaQ (Apr 2 2009 - 3:00pm) Michelle,I 'm sorry if my By: It's Me D (Apr 2 2009 - 3:04pm) Michelle wrote: Isn't there By: M. Spector (Apr 2 2009 - 2:59pm) I don't understand what By: Michelle (Apr 2 2009 - 2:56pm) Michelle wrote: Sure. The By: It's Me D (Apr 2 2009 - 2:54pm) It's Me D wrote:Could you By: Michelle (Apr 2 2009 - 2:47pm) Those are good points, about By: Michelle (Apr 2 2009 - 2:45pm) I think Judy's comments are By: N.R.KISSED (Apr 2 2009 - 2:38pm) Banjo wrote: The only By: It's Me D (Apr 2 2009 - 2:35pm) Re: Violence or property damage at protests By: It's Me D (Apr 2 2009 - 2:32pm) In response to the thread By: M. Spector (Apr 2 2009 - 2:28pm) Re: Violence or property damage at protests By: Caissa (Apr 2 2009 - 2:27pm) I wonder what those who By: Banjo (Apr 2 2009 - 2:25pm) Good question, Caissa, and By: Maysie (Apr 2 2009 - 2:22pm) Re: Violence or property damage at protests By: Caissa (Apr 2 2009 - 2:14pm) Michelle wrote: That to me By: It's Me D (Apr 2 2009 - 2:12pm) Ghislaine wrote: I was at By: It's Me D (Apr 2 2009 - 2:04pm) Joey, I am referencing the By: statica (Apr 2 2009 - 1:59pm) I have to say its obvious By: It's Me D (Apr 2 2009 - 1:55pm) Hmm...If someone makes the By: Michelle (Apr 2 2009 - 1:45pm) Statica said: "Joey's By: Joey Ramone (Apr 2 2009 - 1:53pm) Maysie wrote: My argument in By: Ghislaine (Apr 2 2009 - 1:39pm) Joey's post highlights the By: statica (Apr 2 2009 - 1:28pm) My argument in support of By: Maysie (Apr 2 2009 - 12:43pm) I completely agree with Judy By: Joey Ramone (Apr 2 2009 - 11:59am) Quote:It's unlikely the By: Frustrated Mess (Apr 2 2009 - 11:54am) I went to a protest a few By: Refuge (Apr 2 2009 - 11:54am) Property damage was very By: martin dufresne (Apr 2 2009 - 11:59am)
- Re: Violence or property damage at protests By: Michelle (Apr 3 2009 - 1:45pm)
- Snert wrote:Quote: Except By: Cueball (Apr 3 2009 - 1:41pm)
- Quote: Except that there By: Snert (Apr 3 2009 - 1:09pm)
- M. Spector wrote: Except By: statica (Apr 3 2009 - 1:01pm)
- Except that there comes a By: M. Spector (Apr 3 2009 - 12:34pm)
- I think that, short of civil By: The Bish (Apr 3 2009 - 12:23pm)
- I just think people need to By: M. Spector (Apr 3 2009 - 11:50am)
- Gandhi was a winner.He was By: George Victor (Apr 3 2009 - 11:19am)
- Michelle says it got good By: martin dufresne (Apr 3 2009 - 11:21am)
- Caissa wrote: So when By: Refuge (Apr 3 2009 - 11:19am)
- Snert makes a good point By: Ghislaine (Apr 3 2009 - 11:12am)
- Feel free to tell me how By: Snert (Apr 3 2009 - 11:11am)
- Re: Violence or property damage at protests By: Catchfire (Apr 3 2009 - 11:04am)
- Quote:Attacking a private By: Snert (Apr 3 2009 - 10:55am)
- To what extent do we care if By: martin dufresne (Apr 3 2009 - 10:55am)
- I agree it is ridiculous and By: Ghislaine (Apr 3 2009 - 10:53am)
- Goodwin didn't give a fuck By: Catchfire (Apr 3 2009 - 10:48am)
- Ghislaine wrote: Sit-ins, By: statica (Apr 3 2009 - 10:42am)
- Michelle wrote: I've drawn By: Ghislaine (Apr 3 2009 - 10:32am)
- Michelle wrote:I don't think By: statica (Apr 3 2009 - 10:20am)
- Re: Violence or property damage at protests By: Michelle (Apr 3 2009 - 10:17am)
- Michelle wrote: I agree with By: statica (Apr 3 2009 - 10:18am)
- Caissa wrote:So when By: Catchfire (Apr 3 2009 - 10:03am)
- Banjo wrote: I wonder what By: statica (Apr 3 2009 - 9:54am)
- So when violence is used at By: Caissa (Apr 3 2009 - 8:16am)
- I've drawn her attention to By: Michelle (Apr 3 2009 - 8:02am)
- Re: Violence or property damage at protests By: Caissa (Apr 3 2009 - 7:23am)
- Good post, Cueball. By: Catchfire (Apr 3 2009 - 6:45am)
- I see mythological Gandhi By: Cueball (Apr 3 2009 - 7:44am)
- Fundamentally, I think the By: Cueball (Apr 3 2009 - 2:33am)
- radiorahim wrote:Yes riot By: N.R.KISSED (Apr 3 2009 - 12:42am)
- Yes. I hardly think he will By: Cueball (Apr 3 2009 - 12:22am)
- As for Slavoj Žižek, By: martin dufresne (Apr 2 2009 - 11:30pm)
- Re: Violence or property damage at protests By: martin dufresne (Apr 2 2009 - 11:19pm)
- Re: Violence or property damage at protests By: Maysie (Apr 2 2009 - 11:10pm)
- Yes riot cops are shithead By: radiorahim (Apr 2 2009 - 11:08pm)
- I'm really enjoying this By: Maysie (Apr 2 2009 - 11:05pm)
- Quote:The initially peaceful By: M. Spector (Apr 2 2009 - 9:42pm)
- (double post) By: martin dufresne (Apr 2 2009 - 9:12pm)
- In the end, such issues are By: martin dufresne (Apr 2 2009 - 9:56pm)
- I have a real problem with By: radiorahim (Apr 2 2009 - 9:05pm)
- Who was upset about By: Tommy_Paine (Apr 2 2009 - 8:31pm)
- Well. I have enormous By: Ze (Apr 2 2009 - 8:11pm)
- Re: Violence or property damage at protests By: Cueball (Apr 2 2009 - 7:00pm)
- Re: Violence or property damage at protests By: It's Me D (Apr 2 2009 - 6:54pm)
- It's Me D wrote:saga wrote: By: saga (Apr 2 2009 - 6:29pm)
- In his 2008 book Violence, By: Catchfire (Apr 2 2009 - 6:08pm)
- In the context of street By: Tommy_Paine (Apr 2 2009 - 5:47pm)
- saga wrote: I've had the By: It's Me D (Apr 2 2009 - 5:33pm)
- Snert wrote:Missing entirely By: saga (Apr 2 2009 - 5:31pm)
- It's Me D wrote:Great post By: saga (Apr 2 2009 - 5:32pm)
- Michelle wrote: Those are By: N.R.KISSED (Apr 2 2009 - 5:18pm)
- "Communities which are By: remind (Apr 2 2009 - 5:17pm)
- Snert,I'm not sure what to By: It's Me D (Apr 2 2009 - 5:10pm)
- Re: Violence or property damage at protests By: It's Me D (Apr 2 2009 - 5:03pm)
- This could be a case of the By: Snert (Apr 2 2009 - 5:02pm)
- "Gandhi taught us not to use By: saga (Apr 2 2009 - 4:58pm)
- Snert wrote: I'm sure this By: It's Me D (Apr 2 2009 - 4:29pm)
- M. Spector wrote:remind By: remind (Apr 2 2009 - 3:42pm)
- Michelle wrote:I agree with By: ElizaQ (Apr 2 2009 - 3:34pm)
- Quote:I was responding to a By: Snert (Apr 2 2009 - 3:31pm)
- remind wrote: Frankly, I do By: M. Spector (Apr 2 2009 - 3:29pm)
- "Violence" doesn't depend on By: M. Spector (Apr 2 2009 - 3:27pm)
- Re: Violence or property damage at protests By: Ghislaine (Apr 2 2009 - 3:27pm)
- Frankly, I do not believe By: remind (Apr 2 2009 - 5:14pm)
- Could be, M. Spector. I can By: Michelle (Apr 2 2009 - 3:23pm)
- Violence at protests is By: Jingles (Apr 2 2009 - 3:20pm)
- Michelle wrote: I also agree By: M. Spector (Apr 2 2009 - 3:19pm)
I think that, short of civil war, violence against an industrial nation-state is simply not going to affect meaningful change. The state will virtually always have superior firepower. Protestors will never win that battle. Every violent act by protestors will draw an even more violent act from the state. So to my mind there are two possibilities: either we deliberately involve ourselves in constantly escalating violence, or we acknowledge that, justified or not, it's simply not a battle we can win.
As one poster asked, what are the specific aims that a violent protest aims to achieve? Let's say that a protestor breaks the windows of a bank. The end goal of this is what? The bank is not harmed in any way. The money to repare that property damage isn't going to come from the CEO's bank account. If anything, it's going to come in the form of increased service charges to that bank's users. The bank may even justify the increased service charges as being necessary because of the damage that has been done to them. That, in turn, sets the bank's customers against the protestors. But not just the protestors, but their goals as well. That is a serious problem.
Now, the goal of a peaceful protest, at least in my mind, is not to actually change the behaviour of the state directly. Rather, it is to raise awareness about the issue and get a broader cross-section of the public to learn about the cause and come on side with it. This increased mass will, in turn, put increased pressure on politicians to adopt progressive policies. That's the theory, anyway. It is quite difficult to tell exactly how well such a thing works. But it is not at all difficult to say that property destruction is extremely unlikely to get the average citizen on-side; whether activists like it or not, those average citizens are going to have to be part of any successful movement.