BC Election Aftermath

Are you still the authority on "most people in Canada"??? Wasn't this your expert opinion:

The "game" has changed, KD. You may fear left-wing screaming radical trade union militants, but try not to ascribe your own prejudices to the majority of voters. They're way, way ahead of you.

 

Which party elected the first Filipina and the first and second lesbians? Hint, it wasn't the Liberals. Interesting how diversity is only relevant when it can be used to slam the NDP, innit?

For what it's worth, nobody in BC politics, or on Babble, plays "identity politics" to the exclusion of other issues. But until such time as our society is genuinely equal for all people, until the political scene is actually reflective enough of the diverse communities that actually make up the real world that we live in that there are no "firsts" left to achieve, "identity politics" can never be entirely irrelevant. Every breakthrough for women, people of colour, LGBTs, etc., is still worth noting and celebrating regardless of which party achieves it, as long as we still live in a society where such breakthroughs are still waiting to be made.

We'll really have transcended identity politics when it's impossible for anybody to be the first of anything anymore, because all the firsts have already happened, not when one Babble poster decides that we should get over it all.

AdamT

"But hey, keep telling yourself that next time will be different and the NDP will win if the government just keeps screwing up."

 

I guess I will, and you keep telling yourself that dumping the policies that 42% vote for and adopting the policies of the 8% with no seats will bring victory.  Strangely when Audrey was getting around 8% federally I didn't see the Libs and Cons changing their platforms to woo us but perhaps they should have eh?

 

"First of all, you are just guessing."

I think I made that pretty clear when I said "I'm just guessing".

 

"Mock it all you want"

Well, what's the point now when you're expecting me to?  Anyway, I'm all for a bigger web presence, I think its a more cost effective way to campaign instead of doing the Abe Lincoln thing and travelling around making the same speech at each whistle stop.

 

"But keep making fun of the 18-30 demographic, then when they don't vote for you"

Just to be clear, I make fun of them because they don't vote for anybody.  One day when they're the 65-77 demographic and not voting I will still make fun of them.

 

"Who cares if they're the most popular party amongst non-voters."

I don't but apparently some make a big deal of it.

 

"The point is to get non-voters to vote."

Not true, if they're not going to vote NDP why would I want them to vote?  I'm happy with apathetic Greens and Libs not voting.  Its only the apathetic Dippers I'm interested in and although I haven't written a thesis on it yet a quick look at the results tells me people don't vote when they have no chance and the reason they have no chance is most ridings in BC are safe.  That's a problem the NDP leadership cannot do anything about but STV would have.  Unfortunately it went down in flames.

 

"Besides, the Greens were pretty much invisible this election. It's not surprising their vote went down."

No they weren't.  They were in both debates and their minions were all over the web.  A web presence which you just told me should bring Obama-like numbers rushing in to the voting booths.

 

"The NDP "brain trust" doesn't seem to be listening to what current and previous NDP voters seem to think"

Not to the extent I would like to see anyway.  The discussions of 2001 were ignored.  Clearly some of our dear "strategists" have to go.

 

"As for the other policy things you've mentioned as "priorities" the NDP ought to tackle, not sure where you pulled those ones from. None of them are the least bit progressive, so obviously no one progressive is advocating them."

Not sure what you're referring to as not being issues that progressives care about.

 

"But it's nice to know you're "willing" "to try" to bring in new supporters. Yes, it's nice to be willing to attempt to win the election."

I think the NDP did try to win the election.   For once they matched the Liberals on negativity and they had a likeable leader.  James moved the party towards the centre and peed off some on the Left but it didn't work.  C'est la vie.

 

 

 

 

Unionist said

The "game" has changed, KD. You may fear left-wing screaming radical trade union militants, but try not to ascribe your own prejudices to the majority of voters. They're way, way ahead of you.

 

In one riding. But what are you suggesting unionist, that the reason the BCNDP didn't win this campaign was because it wasn't "left" enough. Out of curiousity with the nick "Unionist" are you public or private sector? Me, I'm private sector and we had quite the lively post election debate the following night about politics, positions actions of unions etc. I guess if you come from a public sector union, where you're at war with the government, you can take a single solitary tact. Yet like most private sector unions who aren't a "one shop stop," the gamut of the membership runs the gamut of the political spectrum.

I can't wait for a thread to start called "now what for the BCNDP? Where do they go?"  I talk from the point of being involved since 2002, and the direction that the party had set itself on in rebuilding. Thanks to some one issue wonders, and special interest groups within the party, the party veered off that direction, and now we see the results. Status quo in 2009. Against a government that frankly is rotten to the core. There was a breakthrough in 2005. And if you look at the platform and strategy back then, it was a balanced platform.  This campaign, the strategists got drawn into every single wedge issue, and pushed the party in different directions, rather than a cohesive message. We all know that Campbell is rotten for most people in BC.  But no one answered the question that everyone was asking... "yeah but."  When it came to the economy, the strategists didn't have an answer. They were too busy in 2007 coming up with limited range ideas that don't resonate with the electorate AS A WHOLE. You have your supporters and the people that will vote for you no matter what.  But fact is, the campaign didn't attract any new blood into the BCNDP. It did however chase some people away. For the better in some cases I believe.

Mable won her seat.  Wonderful. Great. Congrats to her. But various opinion on the race was that it wasn't that strong a campaign, and her opponent wasn't that strong either. Kensington is NDP territory taking in a large chunk of the Vancouver Kingsway federal riding. What I'm wondering is this, now that she's an elected MLA representing the riding, does the rhetoric and posturing she's famous for suddenly end?  Excellent MLAs and MPs have the ability to hear all sides of the community and listen to all sides of the community.  That will be the challenge I think.

Just because someone is a trade unionist, doesn't necessarily mean they subscribe to Comrade Marx, Lenin et al. As a matter of fact most of my dealings in the union movement have been with people who realize that without a strong economy there's no way you can have a strong labour movement. For unions to succeed business has to thrive a bit. Its about getting an equitable share of the pie for the workers you represent.

And as for being an authority on anything Unionist, its my contention based on things like voter turnout over the past 3 elections, people's comments about the polarization of the spectrum in BC, and by extension, Canada as a whole. And the fact that most people want the good social benefits, but also want to make as much money as possible.  People who believe that Canada has thrived in large part because of balance.  Something has to pay for public health care. If Canada didn't have a strong business climate and economy, we wouldn't have the things people have fought for over the past 142 years. 

I never claimed to be an "expert" and you are being somewhat snide and arrogant throwing those terms around. But thats freedom of speech. You're entitled to your position and your opinion, and I to mine. I don't fear left wing screaming radical trade union militants. While not screaming, or really far left wing, I do walk around in my union colours at work, and do the job on the ground advocating and fighting for the members I represent. And alot of times with a "union thug" button on. Why not go and ask the strike breakers Telus used about people like me. They didn't really like it when I called them out several times and wouldn't back down from them. But then again,  Unionist, I'm not putting myself forward for public office.  Some people do know what their strenghts and limitations are, and where to hit the off switch. It remains to be seen if being in Victoria teaches someone like Mabel that lesson or not.

I should also add that I think Campbell is disliked by even many Liberal supporters.  The Liberal numbers probably include a sizeable chunk of people who could only be described as anti-NDP voters.

 

 

Won't you be dead by then, Jim? Because let's be honest voter turnout is high amongst the oldest demographics and just gets lower and lower the younger you get. It's obvious this is true btw, seeing as voter turnout just keeps declining and declining. The fact that I've voted in every election that I've been eligible too, despite the fact that I'm 24, is an abboration.

In any case, I find your attitude funny. This whole, "come out first, then we'll address your concerns" attiude. Um, they're not coming out because your not addressing their concerns. If you ran a business would you say, "buy our products, then we'll show you some good customer service?" If you did, then your business would fail. The same is true when it comes to political parties. And just so you know, in case you ask, no I don't have any special ideas on how you're supposed to do this - when it comes to policies. I don't think the NDP's policies are particularly unfriendly to young people. I'd advocate more environmentally friendly and more socially liberal policies, but I don't think the NDP is opposed to these things. Although hearing people like you talk about harm reduction, like it's legalizing crack cocaine, maybe (supposing you actually have anything to do with the NDP) the party is unfriendly to those things. But young people are some of the most marketed to people in the history of the planet. And if you can't understand that and co-opt it, then you'll never be able to crack their "code" so to speak. 

And yeah, I'll admit people in my generation are probably too cynical for their own good. But someone down south did get their votes. And their votes did put him over the top. And while you people might think it cost 600 million dollars to do that, I think using his money as an excuse is just justifying your looser-dom. So basically, the only piece of advice I could give is to go after their votes (and yet again, since this needs to be drilled into your brain, it doesn't need to be done at the expense of the little old ladies who care about how much the cashier clerk makes - because, honestly it isn't only little old ladies who care about that sort of thing, since most of us end up being the cashier clerk's). Combine political events with social occasions if you want to build the seeds of a movement? I don't know, I'm not an activist. Ask the activists. If you really cared to win an election, instead of continuing to be a bunch of loosers, then you'd try to find out instead of simply being "open" to "trying" to find out.

My candidate used twitter, there were face book groups for NDP candidates, and indeed Miss 604 and her followers, felt James was the most internet savvy of the leaders. James responded to questions sent through the computer networking questions from Miss604, with a spontaneous video reply feed. While Sterk copy and pasted the Green Party Platform and sent it to them. Which did not make them overly enthused about her and she was asked to re-respond back in real time, which she did, though she did it over the PHONE. And I agree those who are internet savvy and are NDP supporters, who had issues with the NDP on line presence, should have stepped their asses forward and helped as opposed to whining about from the sidelines. Moreover, in the Vic area, I am betting the 20-36 year olds did vote in higher numbers perhaps more than elsewhere even. I know my daughter most certainly got her friends, clients, associates and computer networking buddies out to vote NDP. Her and I had long talks about why she felt they were not voting, and why she herself was not involved in voting except for the last 2 elections. After she gave it long thought her opinion was extremely interesting to me. Paraphrased it was. "how can we possibly meet the heights of social rebellion and political activity that our parents achieved,we can't. And there is really nothing to socially rebel against our parents for, so the only rebellion option we have, to distinguish ourselves from our parents, is that of NOT voting, and not participating politically". Once I pointed out to her the fallacy contained in that, and how harmful it was to her age demographic. She saw indeed that was not useful to anyone, let alone themselves, as apathy even if it is a form of rebellion, is not actually a "rebellion" at all.

Not at all. I merely pointed out that you were totally wrong about Vancouver Kingsway (you predicted how the campaign there would go - I didn't). My only beef with the BCNDP campaign was Carole James' cowardly and pandering attack against her candidates (besides some atrocities like "Axe the Tax", but I ascribe that to pandering as well). I'm not from B.C.

Private, industrial, "blue-collar".

I see, so you were counting on a strong Liberal campaign to make your earlier prediction come true?

I personally hope she disappoints both Carole James and you, and continues to remember where she came from.

Been burned by some left-wing radicals in the workplace lately? Or just given to gratuitous redbaiting-type comments?

I think workers should run business and business-people should work. What do you think of that, Comrade?

Not interested. We're greedy. We want it all.

That's the Amerikan Dream, isn't it? Get rich and enjoy the good life. What they forget to tell workers is that they never will. But it serves their interest (the businesses you praised earlier who run the economy) to perpetuate the illusion. Why would you aspire to a better world when success and prosperity are just around the corner?

Naw, we workers just want to make excessive demands, destroy the economy, and lose health care and everything else. That's why the world economy just took a hit. But the autoworkers (for example) have recognized their guilt and are now giving back all their ill-gotten gains. Something has to pay for public health care.

 

What are you talking about? You said "most people in Canada ... are in the middle" - meaning that Mable Elmore is "far left". Those who speak in the name of "most of the people" (as you did - which triggered my comment) often feel uncomfortable about the evidentiary underpinnings of their own position, in my long and rich experience.

Then we are allies, irrespective of our different opinions, Brother.

I hope not. If she turns into a Carole James, hopefully she'll get flushed next time and learn a real lesson. But I'm an optimist.

LOL. Every provincial NDP that ever got elected had a strong relationship with the unions. And many of them who lost power did so after taking workers for granted (back to work legislation, tearing up negotiated collective agreements, breaking promises for reforms). Plentiful historical examples available on request.

Without supporting workers and unions, and without enjoying their reciprocal support, the NDP will not be in opposition - it will be nonexistent. We already have the Liberals and Conservatives, you realize.

 

Thank you, Stockholm.

 

Brookmere

"so that is  about the most clueless analogy I can think of"

Not at all, the point being that the NDP were doing as badly as the Greens but the other parties didn't say to themselves, gee, let's adopt some NDP policies so we can get that 8% because they knew it wasn't going to happen anyway, that was what was left of the NDP's base. 

"Two, If you are the number two party and you want to become number one, you do so by gaining votes at the centre."

Which has been the Carole James strategy.  I doubt there's too many people in the NDP camp that think James is from the Far Left.  Most of the complaints against her over the last 4 years has been that she isn't left-wing enough.  Even guys like Palmer and Good give her that.

"And if you want to gain votes from those who didn't vote, well let's start with those 80,000 NDP voters from 2005 who didn't turn out this time. Wny didn't they?"

First, I don't know.  Second, they could have been left-wing Dippers who weren't excited  about Carole moving to the centre and felt abandoned.

Vansterdam Kid

"Won't you be dead by then, Jim?"

I don't plan to be.


"Because let's be honest voter turnout is high amongst the oldest demographics and just gets lower and lower the younger you get. It's obvious this is true btw, seeing as voter turnout just keeps declining and declining."

I know.  Which is why I say its a problem but not the fault of the NDP.  Its happening across the spectrum.


"In any case, I find your attitude funny. This whole, "come out first, then we'll address your concerns" attiude. Um, they're not coming out because your not addressing their concerns."

Then they should come out first and tell us what their concerns are.  And when we try to compromise not walk away and say, nope, its all or nothing.   They have to take a long-term view, after all, every member of the current NDP will eventually be dead.

As for Obama, I think if Carole James had ran against George Bush she would have won.  But regardless, again, if young people want to make changes in the system they have to show up, we can't drag them out of their homes.

To paraphrase Vaughn Palmer on the radio yesterday, there is no way anybody could make the claim all the parties are the same and there's no one to vote for.  There are big differences and the NDP was clearly more on the side of low wage and disadvantaged people than the Liberals.   If that interests young people then they should have come out instead of sulking that the NDP doesn't represent them 100%.

 

She started off doing that, and then they ended up running the most genuinely socialist campaign I've seen in years and going on about "horror! private companies want to make profits with run of the river projects! PROFITS! HORROR!"

I think that sent a clearer and more honest signal to the people of the province about the true feelings of the New Democratic party elite for business than all of Carole James' warm and fuzzy speeches.

Again, this is not to say that I think 'all business is good' or that businesses don't need to be regulated.  But, there is a huge difference between the attitude I think what a successful progressive party has towards business, which is a kind of 'trust but verify' approach and the attitude of the NDP elite, which is reflexively anti business.

 

AdamT,

The problem with run of rivers is that its private companies raping a pristine environment and the past suggests that private companies are not exactly the most environmentally friendly when that goes up against profits.

Whether the Right likes it or not this is an issue about which a lot of Dippers get up in arms over.  We don't want to look back in 20 years and say yes things were done badly but we've learned a lesson.  We think it should be done well right off the bat or not at all.  The NDP stance on run-of-rivers does seem to represent a large part of the population.