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The "Waffle" needs to be revived within the NDP

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N.Beltov
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Joined: May 25 2003

The NDP, at best, is a social democratic party. When I write "best" I mean most socialist. Such parties have a lengthy history of silencing their own left elements - for entirely legitimate AND illegitimate reasons - and playing the role of demobilizing and demoralizing those to the left of the party. C'est la vie. It's been that way and it's what they do. Therefore, I would say that the failure of Canadians to build a party to the left of the NDP reflects the wild success of the NDP in forestalling this and ensuring its failure.  And this is while being able to attract the very activist and left elements that (later) become demobilized and demoralized. It's paradoxical and, just to be clear, I make these remarks about how the NDP, and parties like it, works when many, many of my personal friends are in the NDP. All these left wing people, activists, failing to demonstrate their political strength in this country reflects the outstanding success of the NDP (and other, more sinister forces) in doing what I've outlined with great success.

One should tip their hat to political rivals that are so successful. So, hats off to the NDP for putting such a smackdown on the left. I hope the left will put a similar smackdown on the NDP in the future. We might stand a chance of a socialist oriented Canada in that case. :)

Anyway, the discussion is interesting. I was never in the Waffle, personally, so in terms of my own experience in politics I don't feel particularly strong about them, one way or the other.



N.Beltov
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Joined: May 25 2003

Uncle John wrote:
The only major socialist power these days is China, which is more like Nazi Germany was than Soviet Russia.

China is socialist in name only. Like the Nazis.

Quote:
However, capitalism has its excesses, and wealth disparities are a concern. The top 10 people are worth more than the bottom billion. That is a problem.

It's not a "problem" ... it's an inherent part of the system. Maybe you should read more about socialism before making your pronouncements about it.

Have a nice day.


Uncle John
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Joined: Feb 8 2008

I remember a communist telling me about 30 years ago that social democratic parties were the worst as all they wanted to do was "make capitalism work better".

In Scandinavia, there is less wealth disparity than is found in the Anglosphere.

Perhaps there, they have made capitalism "work better".


George Victor
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Joined: Oct 28 2007

They are far more politically sophisticated, and they do not sit in the U.S.shadow, which was the fundamental  factor creating the Waffle. Even elements of Tweedledee and Tweedledum had moments of nationalist resentment in the postwar period.

Social democracy has been waffling ever since, but to discuss the NDP and Waffle revival without context, without reference to the monsters of economic collapse and radical change in Earth's climate, suggests it's all theoretical smarm and wishful thinking. No goals, just some sort of socialist revival. Wow!


fiidel_castro
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Joined: Jul 3 2009

I can tell you this right now. There are thousands, literally thousands, of First Nations and Metis peoples in Sask. Manitoba and Alberta and most of them are totally separated from the party system and the whole electoral process but this does not mean they are apolitical. The truth is that they are fiercely political and they are on the margins of Canadian society. These masses are growing in numbers within the cities and they are feeling extreme disconnection from the democratic process. It is my theory that if say the NDP, or another leftist party, were to actively take up the mantle of Aboriginal issues then these masses could become political allies; I am not talking about political subordinates, I mean real allies as in side-by side.

The problem is that the NDP ignores Aboriginal peoples and cares nothing too much about their issues. But Aboriginal issues are similar to the NDP core issues: housing, healthcare, social welfare system, jobs, education, poverty, etc. So then what is the problem? The problem seems to be within power-sharing. The NDP leadership often talks a great game regarding Aboriginal issues but they rarely perform. The NDP neglects thousands of young and disaffected Aboriginal workers and this is a real shame. If there were to be a new 'waffle' it could very well be led by many Aboriginal young people who are right on the fringes of the urban masses and are housed in ethnic ghettos. This is my two cents and I think it is accurate.  


RosaL
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Joined: Mar 4 2007

fiidel_castro wrote:

It is my theory that if say the NDP, or another leftist party, were to actively take up the mantle of Aboriginal issues then these masses could become political allies; I am not talking about political subordinates, I mean real allies as in side-by side.

 

I agree 100%! (I'm also in Saskatchewan.) 


George Victor
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Joined: Oct 28 2007

I look forward to that day with great hope and anticipation.

But you are rather overlooking the work of New Democrats in the north, methinks. Certainly, to say that the NDP cares nothing about the issues facing Aboriginal peoples is to deny their record in Parliament and every legislative body in the land. I challenge anyone to find a more pro-active political party in that regard (while admitting that New Democrats aren't always the best organizers. Lack spirit and faith in these days of rightwing media control.

I've been inviting feedback on exactly these points for  nearly two years of on and off babbling here. But as you know, there are two, very divided camps regarding FN participation in the mainstream of Canadian political life. Hope it's resolved in favour of participation soon.


Coyote
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Joined: Jan 21 2004

At one point in my life I would have welcomed a return of the Waffle. Hell, at one point in my time on babble, I would have. I'm not entirely certain I wouldn't, still to this day.

but i do sometimes wonder at the approach. it is clear that the NDP is NOT, culturally, a radical socialist party. The socialist caucus is marginal. When people such as Bev Meslo and others have run for party leadership they have been rejected handily by the party membership, including union caucuses.

there may indeed be room for a radical socialist voice in Canadian politics, but as yet it has not found a home. At one point I thought the Green Party was going to become that voice, but the Liberal hands that guide that party under May have neatly removed that option.

the assumption, to many, has long been that the NDP should be that vehicle. I am no longer a radical socialist, and I cannot speak for them. but i might suggest that history has proven that not to be the case.

regardless, these are all interesting conversations and i do think it is very important the the socialist Left be a vibrant part of our political landscape.


Doug
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Joined: Apr 17 2001

Jacob Richter wrote:
Such "party" would be such in the 19th-century sense or early 20th-century sense: a genuine political party, a way of life, a distinct class culture.

Those sort of mass organizations don't exist anymore in most any other facet of life besides religion (and even there, there's a lot of fracturing). Trying to make a 19th Century model of political organization work in the 21st Century sounds pretty futile to me.


fiidel_castro
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Joined: Jul 3 2009

Nothing is ever futile if you can somehow impact the masses. Nothing is futile when people band together. Yes, it sounds like rhetoric but it is true. Social justice and political empowerment are real and they are happening all the time, this site is a testament to that. Nothing is futile even in 2009. Political systems and institutions are in constant flux and change. It is just a matter of the people being ready to impact the change in their favour when flux occurs.   


Maysie
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Joined: Apr 21 2005

Thank you, fiidel_castro. Yes!


KenS
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Joined: Aug 6 2001

I didn't call you delusional Maysie. Aside from the fact that I have tons of evidence that you are anything but.

I called something in particular you wrote delusional. But to be more precise, its exemplary of delusional thinking the left has about responsibility for obstacles to its success. And here's something from the same well:

N.Beltov wrote:
it's what they do. Therefore, I would say that the failure of Canadians to build a party to the left of the NDP reflects the wild success of the NDP in forestalling this and ensuring its failure. One should tip their hat to political rivals that are so successful. So, hats off to the NDP for putting such a smackdown on the left.

This is of a piece with "if the 'leadership' of the NDP would just get out of the way and let the real people be in charge".

Its all of a piece where to be more radical is the natural order of things- if not for all of "the people", then at least for the most oppressed among them.

This is not to dismiss materialist concepts that the NDP and social democratic parties in general play an objective role of deflecting more radical options. Thats something of a truism as far as I'm concerned. Very different from the more excessive formulations that are chronic in the left.


Stockholm
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Joined: Sep 29 2002

"It is my theory that if say the NDP, or another leftist party, were to actively take up the mantle of Aboriginal issues then these masses could become political allies; I am not talking about political subordinates, I mean real allies as in side-by side."

So what specific Aboriginal policies should the NDP advocate? Its easy to say "take up the mantle of Aboriginal issues". All parties make some pretence to doing that and in fact the federal government already pours tens of billions of dollars a year into INAC and land claims are being negotiated all over the place. So what SPECIFICALLY do you suggest the NDP propose on Aboriginal issues that will be vastly different from what is already on the table?


Jacob Richter
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Joined: Oct 19 2008

Doug wrote:

Jacob Richter wrote:
Such "party" would be such in the 19th-century sense or early 20th-century sense: a genuine political party, a way of life, a distinct class culture.

Those sort of mass organizations don't exist anymore in most any other facet of life besides religion (and even there, there's a lot of fracturing). Trying to make a 19th Century model of political organization work in the 21st Century sounds pretty futile to me.

 

You overestimate the impact of today's organized religion, even without the fracturing.  Today, religious services are like most other consumer products (going to typical services and maybe having a meal, unless the religion is ethnicity-based like Judaism or Hinduism).  Anyway, we can debate the applicability of the 19th-century model to the 21st century in another thread, but such a high level of organization is what workers need in order to fulfill Marx's dictum that "the emancipation of the working class is the act of the working class itself."

 

Any thoughts on Hezbollah, by the way?


remind
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Joined: Jun 25 2004

fiidel_castro wrote:
This is my two cents and I think it is accurate. 

In accurate, at least for BC and the Yukon.

First  NDP campaign I worked on after becoming old enough to vote was Archie Patrick's, 3 decades ago.

Carole James is Metis and is married to a status First Nations

Jean Crowder is Metis

Troy Sebastian  Ktunaxa band member, ran in the south Kootneys for the NDP last provincial election election and hopefully wil run next one too.

Claire Trevena re-elected NDP MLA for North Island was a former Kwakiutl-band chief councillor.

Doug Brown North Thompson Kamloops NDP MLA candidate

BC's Grand Chief endorsed James in the last election.

Then of course there is Tom King

Quote:
The problem is that the NDP ignores Aboriginal peoples and cares nothing too much about their issues.

Again wrong. For starters:

Jordan's Principle is an NDP action

NDP got the motion through the HoC to endorse the UN's Declaration on the Right's of Indigenous People's, when Harper refused to sign on.

The NDP forced/pushed Harper to make the apology to FN's for residential school abuses

Worked with FN's students to get funding for their elementary school.

Have introduced a motion  for Aboriginal History month

Forced Martin in 2005 to give 300 million for off reserve FN housing needs.

Having said this, they can still do better too. But you are misrepresenting dramatically and have a lack of knowlege when you say they care nothing and ignore FN's, perhaps to the point of fabrication.


fiidel_castro
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Joined: Jul 3 2009

Stockholm wrote:

"So what specific Aboriginal policies should the NDP advocate? Its easy to say "take up the mantle of Aboriginal issues". All parties make some pretence to doing that and in fact the federal government already pours tens of billions of dollars a year into INAC and land claims are being negotiated all over the place. So what SPECIFICALLY do you suggest the NDP propose on Aboriginal issues that will be vastly different from what is already on the table?"

 

I already mentioned the issues and if you actually read my post then you would have seen. But because I said Aboriginal workers and criticized the NDP you went on the offensive. If you knew anything then you would know that INAC is a government funded institution that has perpetrated mass racism and sexism in this country through its department and its specific policy legislations, i.e. - the Indian Act.

Here are the Aboriginal issues I already mentioned: housing, employment, educational standards and attainment, health care, political representation. If you want more then do some research. Check out your relevant statistics and you will see that Aboriginal communities are in desperate need and are becoming violent and the violence is spreading. You see 'land claims' and the blinders go up but the media does not report on the paltry education and employment levels for Aboriginal peoples in Canada. Get out of your colonial mindset and talk to the people and they will tell you what is happening. CBC, Global, and CTV glorify land claims as if this is the only issue but you should go out and do your homework and check the stats. Go to these communities and find out what the people want and you will see they are ripe for political representation and the NDP is failing as are all the others. But it just so happens that the NDP has an opportunity to gain real allies.

INAC is not political representation, it is bureaucratic and institutionalized racial control.  

And I never said land claims. How is a land claim going to get me a job? Tell me that? Land claims are a totally separate issue and they deal with Treaty abuses and illegal land seizures. But what if you are Metis, or non-status, and you have no land to claim? Get some real info before making a useless argument. The NDP is failing.  


Erik Redburn
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Joined: Feb 26 2004

Hmm, both sides have a point here I think.  The "waffle" is old news and I don't know why some still nurse a grudge over it, when Laxer himself has settled rather comfortably into academic liberalism, but another NPI kind of movement might be useful.  One thing I can say for sure is "Big Daddy" in no way speaks for the average NDPer.


fiidel_castro
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Joined: Jul 3 2009

In accurate, at least for BC and the Yukon.

Having said this, they can still do better too. But you are misrepresenting dramatically and have a lack of knowlege when you say they care nothing and ignore FN's, perhaps to the point of fabrication.

 

You just proved my point, you can name all the initiatives and the representatives on your two hands. Most of the initiatives you speak of either 1) have not been ratified or 2) the actual immediate implementation within Aboriginal communities is lacking. As for the representatives you speak of, those few names are not progress they are crumbs compared to the thousands that are in need of actual political representation. 

Still I beg the question. How will these initiatives help thousands of young Aboriginal people get a job in the capitalist economy? It seems no that political party wants to answer this question, not even a labour-based party. Contrary to popular stereotype, most Aboriginal people actively seek employment and then get stuffed to the very bottom of the division of labour, if they get hired at all. The "token Indian" is born.  

But I have news for the NDP party, if they do not know. The largest populations of Aboriginal people are in Saskatoon, Regina, Winnipeg, Edmonton and other Prairie cities, not in B.C., the Yukon, or Ontario. The Prairies are where the populations are booming and this is where the political action needs to happen, now. The Saskatchewan Aboriginal population, sometime in the next few decades, will reach near parity with the non-Aboriginal populations. This is of immense political importance and it cannot be ignored. Where are these thousands going to go for work, schooling, health needs, etc? And, imagine the amounts of votes that the NDP could attain if they recognized these stats and then actually did something with these communities, today.

 

Here are some things to consider:

Jordan's Principle applies only to status First Nations people and/or Inuit (under the Indian Act). This leaves out the entire Metis and non-status populations. Thus a huge chunk of the total Aboriginal population is left behind. I have never heard of anyone applying for Jordan's Principle and I live in Regina, we have thousands of First Nations peoples.   

No Canadian government has ratified the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (DRIP) as of yet. The NDP have never been voted into power. Canada has deep colonial roots and the only countries to directly oppose the DRIP are Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the US - you can figure out why on your own. The DRIP talks in Canada have stagnated.

The Conservative Party led the apologies to the residential school survivors, which is sadly ironic. The NDP seemed sincere but the fact is that this is 2009. The residential school system started in the late 1800's and was ended in the mid- 1980's. This is a one hundred year historical reality. The NDP have been a political party for many decades, where were the leaders when the abuse was at its height and when it might have contributed to real social justice?

Where exactly is "their" elementary school? There are hundreds of First Nations reserves in Canada, not to mention the booming populations in the urban centres - where the education systems are in need of serious reform. Where is this great school and do they actively teach an Aboriginal-centred curriculum alongside a mainstream one. Is it multilingual, is it immersion?

Where did the 300$ million go? Certainly not to Sask, Manitoba, or Alberta. Come and see the beautiful ramshackle houses in the metropolitan areas and on the majority of the reserves and then follow that money. 

 

My real life is not a fabrication, I can say these things with conviction because I see the problems everyday.  

 

 

 

 

 

 


NorthReport
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Joined: Jul 6 2008

 

Erik Redburn wrote:

  One thing I can say for sure is "Big Daddy" in no way speaks for the average NDPer.

 

What makes you say that?

I don't don't know what you are inferring however if anyone thinks the NDP can function at all without organized labour they are living in a fantasy world.


ottawaobserver
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Joined: Feb 24 2008

Maysie wrote:

There are many radical leftists who are people of colour, immigrants, queers, feminists, etc.

Maysie, I was going to ask you to define "many", but read the rest of the discussion before doing so.  I think your point is that those there are (I assume you're based in Toronto) aren't being approached by elements of the NDP there.

KenS, being based somewhere else in the country, and with history in still another part of the country, has a different experience.

I still think there aren't as many "radical leftists" in the country as you think.  However if your point is to do with outreach period, that's clearly been a key weakness of the Ontario section of the party for a very long time.

But I also think Ken's other point about the role of a political party is a valid one.  Its role IS to get people elected in order to carry on the parts of the struggles that can only take place in the legislatures.  Social movement-y folks tend to forget that part sometimes, and it does require a different set of skills and interests.


remind
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Joined: Jun 25 2004

fiide_castro, you are in error, about  where the highest populations are in Canada, just as you are about many things, BC has the second largest FN population, next to Ontario.

http://www.bchousing.org/resources/Programs/AH/BC_2006_Census_Aboriginal...

I see the 4 FN's candiates running for the BCNDP, as a significant step towards engagement, and more who get involved and get elected, means more will do so too.

The fact that we have a Metis party leader, whose married to a full status FN, is even more significant. (not going to go into my belief that rants against her within the BCNDP, are gender and racially biased)

Many many FN's bands and individuals across the province, own businesses, that employ band members and other FN's only, then we have the significant amout of world renowned artisans,  and those who are not yet so well known, who are self-employed. Yes, there still is a long way to go, but initiatives in BC which started in the late 90's, are success stories today. There is a FN's bank in BC and several Aboriginal Business Development Centres.  Having said that there is still along way to go.

Instead of blaiming the NDP for the Prarie's racism, and oppression of FN's there, perhaps progressive whites in those provinces, should start initiatives to alleviate it. For example what have you done youself?

It is my view that all immigration to Canada, that is stated to be for replacement workers, should be stopped. There are at least 1/3 of a million FN's not able to get jobs because too many employers will hire anybody but a FN's person. Then there is also the issue of bringing in immigrants to settle them on stolen land, when they should not be.

Also, I think that T'Sou-ke Chief Gordon Planes, should be approached by the federal NDP to run as a candidate in EJDF at some point in the future. John Horgan already has a working relaitonship wth him. In fact, Chief Planes could probably knock Dr Martin out, if he was interested in running.

http://johnhorgan.ca/image/sooke-canada-day-2008/cutting-cake-with-tsou-...

Quote:
T'Sou-ke First Nation Innovation and Demonstration Solar Project: Harnessing the Sun to Produce Clean Renewable Energy and Economic Self-Sufficiency, Sooke, BC

 In a spectacular marriage of traditional values and state of the art technology, the T'Sou-ke First Nation on Vancouver Island has already become BC's most-solar-powered intensive community. As the first phase of a five-year plan designed to end the community's dependence on fossil fuels, the T'Sou-ke Nation is installing solar panels to pre heat hot water and photovoltaic panels to create clean electricity to power potentially large savings as hydro prices spike. In the process the Nation is creating much-needed skills in a new fast growing industry.

http://www.turtleisland.org/communities/tsoukesolar.html

 

Quote:
The "Aboriginal Education Enhancement Agreement"  puts in writing a formal policy of making the school district a more hospitable environment for aboriginal students. Similar pacts have been, or will be signed in school districts across the province.

The deal intends to make those students feel more a part of the system, therefore increasing their potential and getting the best-possible education.

Everyone is seen as a beneficiary of the new policy.

"I'm proud to be a part of it," said T'Sou-ke Chief Gordon Planes on April 7 in the Edward Milne Community School gym which was filled to capacity, "to be a witness... a signatory. I look for a lot of positive things for us in the future with this agreement."

http://www.bclocalnews.com/vancouver_island_south/sookenewsmirror/news/4...

 


M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005

ottawaobserver wrote:

But I also think Ken's other point about the role of a political party is a valid one.  Its role IS to get people elected in order to carry on the parts of the struggles that can only take place in the legislatures.  Social movement-y folks tend to forget that part sometimes, and it does require a different set of skills and interests.

I don't agree.

Political parties of the left should not exist merely as electoral vehicles. They should be rooted in the struggles and causes of the mass of working people (and not just trade unions), and particularly those of oppressed minority groups and nationalities. The same set of "skills and interests" should be applied towards participating in these movements as in getting people out to vote one day every couple of years.

These skills would include communication and public relations skills; organizational resources and knowhow for holding public meetings, rallies, conferences, demonstrations, and speeches; persuasive writing and advocacy skills; skills in research and accessing knowledge resources; skills in education and training of organizers and activists; skills in fundraising. etc.

"Interests" would include not just getting a handful of people into legislatures, but learning from the experiences of actual activists; forging links with their organizations; providing political leadership that will link the various causes together into a coherent critique of capitalist society and a vision of how society could be different; drawing lessons from political defeats that will help to raise the consciousness of the voters and attract them toward clear alternatives; and opening up the party apparatus and policy-making process to participation by progressive social movements. 

The parts of the struggles "that can only take place in the legislatures" are only a minor part of those struggles, and by limiting itself to them, any leftist political party puts itself on the sidelines of movements for social change. There is much more to political leadership than making speeches and asking questions in QP. 


N.Beltov
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Joined: May 25 2003

KenS wrote:
This is not to dismiss materialist concepts that the NDP and social democratic parties in general play an objective role of deflecting more radical options. Thats something of a truism as far as I'm concerned. Very different from the more excessive formulations that are chronic in the left.

Some of those formulations ascribe this objective role to subjective factors. And such formulations can easily be "excessive". So, yea.

It's also worth pointing out that those who take a pathological anti-communist point of view (i.e., like unremitting cold warriors of the extreme right) provide a very useful service in carrying out this objective role. It silences and muzzles less "communistic" elements IN the NDP and shows them what to expect if they "get out of line", i.e. get too "socialistic".


fiidel_castro
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Joined: Jul 3 2009

Well, at least somebody did some research on this topic. Please do not patronize me about what I have done with my life, you have no clue as to what I have done with my life, as I have no clue about yours. But I will say this, I was raised on an extremely impoverished reserve in Southern Sask. (Peepeekisis) and then I moved to North Central Regina (voted by Macleans as the worst neighbourhood in Canada) when I was 8 after my father passed when I was 6; both my parents attended residential schools. I now have a B.A. Honours in PSCI and I am presently working an my M.A. thesis in PSCI; some day I hope to do a doctoral thesis on why the NDP is irrelevant to Aboriginal populations (I might be joking though). So I have done something constructive with my time and my life. I know what I am talking about. So please leave your personal shots and attacks inside your head. Sadly, only a First Nations person would ever have to give their credentials in this manner to prove they have knowledge. 

The Census numbers are stagnant and represent a one time number that does not move. The census is often filled out by those that are willing to do so. The fact is that many Aboriginal people (Metis and non-status included) in the Prairies do not fill out the Census. How do I know? Because I speak to them. Thus the actual numbers are skewed for the non-status populations, the status pops are registered with the government and these are probably well-known. The numbers of the Census are accurate to those that fill it out. The B.C. Census indicated that the Aboriginal pop is at 5% of the total pop. The projections for Sask., due the youth and reproduction factors, are that the pop. may approach a 50-50% split in the coming decades. Which would by far surpass the pops of B.C. and Ontario. Yes, you are right today B.C. has a few more people that filled the census and declared their status as Aboriginal. But, the Sask. numbers shows that in 2006 out of our 968,000 total pop. a whopping 141,890 (with 90,000 registered) and this is without those in the cities that may not have filled out the census and those on reserves that may not have either.

Sask. Aboriginal % is 15% of the total pop. and rising immensely., Manitoba's Aboriginal per capita is also 15%. B.C. has 196,000 and this is 5% of their total pop. Ontario has 242,000 Aboriginal pop and this represents 2% of their total pop, Alberta is around 6% of total per capita pop.. Yes, in 2006 B.C. & Ontario have the majority of the total pop. but these numbers are extremely fluid (not static) and are changing everyday. So yes, the 2006 census show that B.C. is second in total numbers but not in per capita, not in per capita (I did not make this clear and I am sorry). Per capita shows that Sask. and Manitoba are in a wide leading margin; excluding Nunavut and the NWT because there is no balanced comparison in these areas, they are predominantly Inuit and Dene with very little non-Aboriginal settlements.

The margin is, by most statisticians measures, rising toward 50-50 parity in Sask.  Ontario and B.C. will never get a 50-50% parity but Manitoba might. The stats show, due to live birth rates, that the B.C. and Ontario total Aboriginal pops are more than likely to be surpassed by Sask. in the next decades. I have already demonstrated that in 2006 the per capita is decidedly in favour of Sask., not B.C. and not Ontario. Sask. and Manitoba are where the pops. are booming. The fact is that Sask. and Man. may surpass B.C. and Ontario in the next few years based on birth rate stats. You can read in the political significance on your own.

 


ottawaobserver
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Joined: Feb 24 2008

M. Spector wrote:

ottawaobserver wrote:

But I also think Ken's other point about the role of a political party is a valid one.  Its role IS to get people elected in order to carry on the parts of the struggles that can only take place in the legislatures.  Social movement-y folks tend to forget that part sometimes, and it does require a different set of skills and interests.

I don't agree.

Political parties of the left should not exist merely as electoral vehicles. They should be rooted in the struggles and causes of the mass of working people (and not just trade unions), and particularly those of oppressed minority groups and nationalities. The same set of "skills and interests" should be applied towards participating in these movements as in getting people out to vote one day every couple of years.

These skills would include communication and public relations skills; organizational resources and knowhow for holding public meetings, rallies, conferences, demonstrations, and speeches; persuasive writing and advocacy skills; skills in research and accessing knowledge resources; skills in education and training of organizers and activists; skills in fundraising. etc.

"Interests" would include not just getting a handful of people into legislatures, but learning from the experiences of actual activists; forging links with their organizations; providing political leadership that will link the various causes together into a coherent critique of capitalist society and a vision of how society could be different; drawing lessons from political defeats that will help to raise the consciousness of the voters and attract them toward clear alternatives; and opening up the party apparatus and policy-making process to participation by progressive social movements. 

The parts of the struggles "that can only take place in the legislatures" are only a minor part of those struggles, and by limiting itself to them, any leftist political party puts itself on the sidelines of movements for social change. There is much more to political leadership than making speeches and asking questions in QP. 

Yes, a lot of what you say is right ... and that's a useful correction to my point.  But everyone can't do everything well.  It seems as though people outside electoral politics don't place much importance on what it takes to do well there as opposed to elsewhere ... and running a national election campaign is a huge undertaking.  Plus I find they tend to judge what, for example, the federal NDP caucus is actually doing based on what they read about it in the Toronto Star or Globe and Mail, and see on the CBC.

I know in my community, Paul Dewar is doing all the things you talk about and more.  We just never read about it in the Canwest rag that runs this town (who refused the chance to endorse Ed Broadbent when he ran here, fer chrissakes).  But if you're out in the community you see him everywhere, working on stuff that really matters.


remind
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Joined: Jun 25 2004

Fiidel_castro, I did not do any research, I was merely providing links to what was known to me.

and my apologies, if you think I was taking a shot at you. I seriously meant that whites in the prairies who are progressive need to get going on anti-racism initiatives and becoming allies with FN's there. And I had no idea you were FN's, so I was not indicating you need to prove your credentials.


fiidel_castro
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Joined: Jul 3 2009

No harm done at all, I am glad you did point out the numbers it clarifies things and we can see the Sask. and Man, are in the per capita majority. I personally believe that the NDP can do something with these provinces in the near future. The waffle 2.0 may come from these provinces and it may be led by young Aboriginal people that are seeking more political and economic involvement. All things are possible when the masses are included. I just hate to see opportunity for advancement go to waste. I have to be critical of the NDP because a great majority of Aboriginal people in the country are leftist (some very extreme) and they are often ignored. The NDP has been in power in Sask. and have been the official opposition for years and still Aboriginal issues are almost never taken-up by the leaders (Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal NDP) until they retire or leave the party. I am optimistic but I am also not stupid. 


KenS
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Joined: Aug 6 2001

M. Spector wrote:
Political parties of the left should not exist merely as electoral vehicles.

No one said that parties of the left should only exist as electoral vehicles.

What was said as that they have to exist first of all as electoral vehicles. Have to.

Upthread I said that the people who come in the door of a riding association or campaign expect to work on electing people. They don't expect to win, but they do expect to be working tangibly and concretely to that ultimate end.

Now that may sound like common sense- and to your eyes, cop out common sense. But I found that out the hard way- by working my butt and as creatively as I and others could think to get people involved on a broader basis. The success of even getting people in the door [once] was limited at best, and very poor at keeping them involved.

Even people who have those broader interests tend only to get involved or stay involved to the degree that there is something very directly related to elections or pre-election work. When you think about it that makes sense. One contributing factor being that there is a huge tendency in our culture to compartmentalize.

I never discourage other people from trying the same thing. But I do take umbrage with people who I know have never taken the trouble to acquaint themselves with the messy details of the grunt work of electoral politics.

I'm fine with being told what the NDP does not do on a 'macro' policy or delivery level, but I DO take offense at being lectured about what I/we SHOULD be DOING, by people who THINK they know what its all about.


remind
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Joined: Jun 25 2004

Yes, I agree the majority of FN's are leftist, and that the NDP can do better, much better in some areas. Indeed, much could be done with such a partnership occuring in greater depth.

In fact, if the segment of white males within the BCNDP keep up their attacks upon James, and try to oust her, they will find out just how little support they will again have. It will be shades of 2000 all over again but with no return.

 


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

Great posts, fiidel_castro, thanks for showing up here and sharing!

 


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