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B.C. teacher may get jail for sex with student
July 21, 2009 - 2:29am
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2009/07/20/bc-burnaby-se...
The student's face turned red in B.C. provincial court in Vancouver on Monday as the act was described and the Crown revealed it was the teacher herself who told other male students they "did it" and called his performance disappointing. It was the other male students who told authorities.
The crown is recommending 8 to 9 months which means if she gets that she will probably end up serving a couple of months. I do hope it makes it impossible for her to be in a position of authority over youth ever again. This is a perfect example of how sex between adults and youth places them at a disadvantage.
Good lord. That's awful. :(
And what the hell is up with other teachers "blaming" this poor kid for getting the teacher fired? I see that it says that this is according to the mother that the boy feels like he is being blamed by other teachers. I certainly hope that this is the boy's perception and that teachers aren't really blaming him - and that the school will do something to reassure this boy that the other teachers do not blame him.
This is a good example of how sexism that stereotypes women hurts males as well as females. (No, I'm not talking "reverse sexism", a concept I don't believe in - I'm talking the usual kind of sexism against women.) Some sexist stereotypes: teen girls who have sex are sluts, or need protection from themselves and others when it comes to sex, whereas teen boys are expected to want, and try to get, sex all the time, and if they're successful, they're studs; girls attach emotion to sex, boys don't. These stereotypes make it so that when a boy is sexually exploited by a female teacher, it's not taken as seriously by a lot of people, including men who joke that they wish THEY had a teacher like that, etc. The idea being that he should love it because heck, all boys want to get laid, and think with their dicks, and don't have any emotional connection to sex, right?
The female teacher is also often painted in sexist tropes too - the designing, manipulative, wicked temptress and seductress (whereas male teachers who do the same thing are considered sexual predators or "pervs").
I definitely think that it's made to feel more insidious when older men have sex with young women than the other way around, and this story is a good example. I feel absolutely horrible for the young man who has been publically shamed and revictimized by the courts. Imagine sitting in a court room and being told you were a lousy lay.
The prinicipal of that school needs to assert some leadership and help staff pull their heads out of their asses before it gets any worse for this kid.
The sad thing is, as a former teacher, I can't tell you the number of times really innaporpriate things happened in class rooms which never made the news. It's a bit like the Catholic Church at times with 'indiscretions' being swept under the rug with quiet censure in order to not embarass the teacher and his family/children. It's absolutely horrible.
"I definitely think that it's made to feel more insidious when older men have sex with young women than the other way around"
First, 'the other way around' seems to be rather rare, with or without any abuse. Second, no, looking at relationships and couples in restaurants and bars, not to mention prostitution venues, it is anything but insidious.
When I was 17 and in grade 12, I had a "crush" on my 30 year old English teacher. I'm not sure how common these types of feelings are.
It sounds like in this case the teacher pursued the student, an egregious violation of professional standards.
I agree that 'the other way around' is rare; sexual exploitation is almost exclusively the dominion of men. That said, sexual exploitation is just that, and examining how victims and predators are treated is a useful tool in examinig the sexist tropes that run through society.
On your second point, I'm having a difficult time extracting how I and those I associate with feel from how society feels. I'm not sure that outside of those men that use sex-trade workers, your point about prostitution holds...unless it is society's apathy which defines their tacit consent.
Cassia, the crush thing happens all the time. When I see teachers acting innapropraitely, it is usually as a mechanism for boosting their self-esteem. Everyone wants to be cool, and everyone wants to be seem as attractive, however, inviting students to bolster your self esteem is not the way to do it. It is very easy to ensure that as a teacher, you are friendly but not a friend.
cps: On your second point, I'm having a difficult time extracting how I and those I associate with feel from how society feels. I'm not sure that outside of those men that use sex-trade workers, your point about prostitution holds...unless it is society's apathy which defines their tacit consent.
I am sorry, I don't understand your point.
I was just saying that almost no one is treating as "insidious" ("awaiting a chance to entrap, harmful but enticing" - Merriam-Webster) relationships where men are older than their female partner. That pattern is the norm, reiterated by most films, TV shows, novels, therapists, teachers and other father-figures, etc. Par for the patriarchal course. It's when a woman exerts that privilege that the powers-that-be are mobilized against her.
I also resent the "mechanism to boost one's self-esteem" excuse for abusers.
Martin, my point about self esteem was not an excuse. It was a reflection of what I have seen, that's all. Too often, I have seen folks get caught up in the adoration/admiration of their students. Clearly it's a sliding scale; I am talking about those breeches of trust that are not as clear cut as intercourse with a student.
I think we agree on the insidious bit. I was merely trying to express that I am having a hard time seeing male-female sex trade relationships as anything less than insidious though I take your point about popular culture expressing patriarchal norms. Put it down to a "i can't believe people think like that" moment on my part...
cps: I have seen folks get caught up in the adoration/admiration of their students.
I agree; I taught a universiry class a few decades ago and I remember having tried for such admiration. I guess it was the word "boost" that I objected to. Men always seem to benefit from this social perception that their self-esteem isn't high enough, that they always need more. (There is a good case to be made that it is usually exaggerated.)
I'm trying to figure out what consensual relationships between a couple where the male is older and the female is younger has to do with the topic of this thread, which is sexual abuse by a teacher towards a student.
Male teachers who sleep with female students is just as unacceptable as female teachers sleeping with male students. But in popular culture or consciousness, I think it's more common for people to recognize female victimization by male teachers than the other way around, because boys are supposedly supposed to want sex all the time, from anyone, anywhere, and not attach emotional significance to sex.
Also, I can't figure out how prostitution has anything to do with this thread either, other than the apparent need to drag it into EVERY thread that has anything to do with sex, sexuality, or sexual abuse.
Torontonians might remember a case several years back involving a young attendant at a gas station, who was "held up" by a female robber with a weapon and forced to submit to oral sex.
Lotsa jokes and "where can I get me some?" comments, until they caught the "woman" and she was a man. Well!! Suddenly the most desirable bandit in town was just another rapist for the gallows! The attendant's status was quickly changed from "lucky bastard" to "victim".
...boys are supposedly supposed to want sex all the time, from anyone, anywhere, and not attach emotional significance to sex
Yeah, despite their best efforts to disabuse women of this notion.
When I brought it up I was speaking in the context of relationships in which one person has an authority over another and I didn't make that clear. I appologise. I was merely trying to echo the point you made about how the different instances of the same thing are treated. I have no problem with any consensual relationship between adults.
It's OK, cps. Sexual "consensus" - regardless of power differentials - is kind of a sacred cow here.
similar case recently in brampton. so sickening
Horseshit. First of all, it's "sexual consent" not "consensus". Means two different things. Secondly, we're talking about a case where there WAS a power differential because it was a teacher and a student. And no one was treating that like a "sacred cow". So go smear someone else.
Okay folks, let's dial it back a bit. This means you, Michelle (post#16), and martin (post#14).
Thanks.
Let's try to stay focussed on the delightful topic, 'kay?
I found the age differences interesting and the fact that had she not made the derogatory comment their "relationship" would have been defended as "not that bad" or even, as others have mentioned, something to envy on the part of males. After all, he was 17 not 13, almost the age of full consent. Her behavior highlights why it's wrong for older people to enter into sexual relationships with youth. 17 is not a child and 30 isn't "old" but it is eons apart in emotional development and power. People try to portray sex between the young and old as simply a fun activity that feels good like water-skiing but sex isn't that simple. Sex between a 17 year old and a 30 year old probably is "fun" sometimes and sometimes it might not do any particular harm but like drunk driving it can also have devastating results. The issue is not that the younger person always suffers harm, but that the harm can be far worse due to the imbalance in power regardless of who initiated the relationship. I also found the note on sexual orientation interesting. Had this been a homosexual relationship I think the outrage would be far greater and 6 to 8 months would have been considered appallingly low.
I do admire the teens who recognized criminal behavior when they saw it and reported the incident to the police. The teacher probably thought they would be tripping over themselves to impress her with their physical prowess.
Lastly I think it is very clear that her actions weren't really about sex. Like rape, they were about power. Had it been about sex she wouldn't have humiliated him she would have just moved on.
Good points.
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I thought this kind of thing only happened in Catholic schools? What is the world coming to?
Actually, Infosaturated, I think it shows nothing of the kind. I started dating a person much older than me (11 years, to be exact) when I was 17, and it was a relationship of equals. Why? Because he was not in a position of authority over me in any way, and I was old enough to make decisions about my sexuality at that point, having been experimenting with sex with people closer to my own age for several years (before the current age of sexual consent, I might add).
If he'd been my teacher, on the other hand, that would have been sexual abuse.
In your particular case it worked out but laws can't be based on individual cases. Compare it to driving. Some 13 year olds are mature enough to drive and some 23 year olds aren't mature enough to drive. We can't pick an age like 25 just because some people don't mature until that age but neither can we choose 13 because some kids at that age are mature enough. We can't just not have an age law. We are left with having to choose an arbitrary age cut-off. Concerning sex we have the added tool of using "Romeo and Juliet" clauses to ensure that we don't criminalize behavior between teens of similar age or between teens and adults of similar age.
I wonder if you really mean you had sex before the age of consent because right now in Canada that is only 12 years old. A 12 or 13 year old can have sex with someone that is within two years of their age. At 14 and up it is 5 years. So, a 14 year old can have sex with a 19 year old without breaking the law.
The question is not whether or not you or any other individual teen is capable of handling such a relationship and able to correctly discern the motives of the older person. The question is if the average teen at that age is emotionally and intellectually equal to the older person. I would say most 17 year olds are not the emotional and intellectual equal of a 28 year old.
The only means of determining age cut offs is considering the costs and benefits. Many people are supporting themselves independently by the age of 18 and sometimes they need the ability to drive. If we deem them old enough to support themselves and to live alone and to drive it doesn't make a lot of sense to protect them from potentially destructive sexual relationships even though some of them may still be very vulnerable.
There is little difference between 17 and 18 but we do have to pick an age. Preventing mature 17 year old from having sex with people over the age of 24 doesn't seem that arduous a limitation in comparison to preventing the harm that could befall an immature 17 year old. At the absolute most the mature teen and partner only have to wait 12 months to initiate sex with whomever it is they are interested in (assuming the relationship started on their 17th birthday). If the relationship is important than waiting up to a year to have sex isn't the end of the world. If the relationship isn't important than missing out on some fun sex isn't that great a cost either. It's about potential harm not inevidable harm.
In this story what if the woman wasn't his teacher but instead had been a well-liked and admired waitress at the coffee shop across the street from the school. I don't think it would have significantly changed the outcome for him. I question the motives of people who attempt to have sexual relations with significantly younger people. It some cases it may be harmless but I suspect in many cases it is because the older person feels they can exert control over someone considerably younger than themselves.
The only aspect of the law I disagree with is singling out anal intercourse for separate treatment.
This sounds to me like condescending contempt for youth under the guise of protecting youth. Just my opinion, you understand.
Of course, but I know that at 17 I would have been very flattered by attention from an older man and I also would have thought that having sex meant we were falling in love. That was a long time ago, but teens falling in love easily remains a reality for many. I also think that the ability to identify ulterior motives comes with age as well as increasing ability to protect oneself emotionally and to take more time and care in evaluating decisions. In particular impulsivity lessens with age and a greater ability to recognize danger.
What kind of laws would you support? Is it okay for a 40 year old to have sex with a 14 year old?
This is a huge social problem, right? We have an epidemic of young people being seduced by adults, right? That's why Stephen Harper and Vic Toews, the great friends of women and young people, introduced this legislation, right? And young people are getting stupider and more immature with each successive generation, so we need to keep increasing the age when we "allow" them to engage in sexual activity, right?
Sorry, I'll stick to my conclusion.
You didn't answer my question. If you think the current law that allows 12 year olds to have sex is too strict what kind of limits do you think are appropriate?
At what point do you consider that it is exploitative for an adult to have sex with a youth and how young is too young? I'm assuming you aren't promoting pedophila.
You're correct, I didn't answer your question. I don't appreciate being baited. Why do I say that? Because I never said anything about any law that permits 12-year-olds having sex being too strict. So go ask someone else, please.
When the relationship is exploitative - irrespective of age.
Oh, I know some 30-year-olds that are too young for sex. Would you like to include them in your improvement on Toews's law?
Don't assume that. I might be stalking some children as we speak. You just never know with these sex fiends.
It is currently legal for people 12 and up to have sex. That's just a fact. The only proviso is the limits on age difference. So, if there were no boundries concerning age adults could have sex with 12 year olds. You said it is condescending for it to be illegal for a 17 year old to have sex with a 25 year old. "It's against the law to have exploitative sex with people" makes no sense as a law. "Expoitative" is subjective. I didn't realize that between 16 and 18 the only limitation is with adults in a position of authority. I disagree with it but I haven't gone on a crusade or anything I just expressed a simple opinion. I've asked you what you think the law should be which seems to me to be a pretty straight-forward non-offensive question. Why are you so hostile and outraged?
drift/Re. 17.
I started university at 17. I was in the Canadian Armed Forces Reserves at 17. I was drinking legally on Base at 17. I think given the other decisions I was considered old enough to make that at 17 I was old enough to make decisions about my sexuality.
/end drift
The thread drift is fine, since clearly we're not done arguing about age of consent laws.
But it is very important to make the distinction that Michelle made at post #21. Here it is again:
When talking on the thread topic, it's the power imbalance that makes this situation abuse, the legal part is about the laws about age of consent. Age of consent alone doesn't account for what is problematic about any adult in a position of power over a youth. And I define youth as anyone under 18.
Not that there can't be exploitative relationships at any age of course. However, the legal and moral issues of having power over (which is usually the older person, but not always) is what makes incidents of teachers and students cases of abuse and exploitation.
When I was 16 I too dated someone who was much older than me (12 or 13 years I think). I was way more mature than him, by the way.