Risks of buying large electronics items at CTC
Canadian Tire sells some large electronics items, such as TVs, including some high-end ones, DVD players. The reason I would not buy anything like that from them is because they use clamp trucks when unloading trailers.
A clamp truck is a lift truck, but instead of forks it has big clamps. When a trailer arrives at a distribution center, the stuff has to be placed on pallets, since it has to be processed, entered into computerized inventory and placed into storage before it can be sent to the stores. A normal procedure for receiving is to stack the boxes on a trailer floor and then pick them up with a clamp truck in order to transfer them on a pallet ouside the trailer.
When you pick a pile of boxes with a clamp truck, you have to squeeze them hard enough, so that none falls down. And, of course, it is easy to miscalculate. Once the boxes are on a pallet, a clamp truck driver brings or pushes the pallet to location where it is picked up by a forklift.
There was at least one case when a whole bunch of TVs were crushed, after they have been squeezed with a clamp. It happened when I was working there. I do not remember how many were crushed, but it could easily have been a dozen. They were crushed to the point that there was visible damage. And, of course, you can only guess how many times boxes are squeezed enough to inflict damage, even though you cannot see it. You buy one of those items and then it dies several weeks later.
I have also seen bicycles unloaded with clamp trucks. Bicycles arrive from the manufacturer in boxes, they have to be assembled before they are placed on a store display. And so guys in receiving take a few such boxes with a clamp truck and you can only imagine what is happening to wheels and spikes under all that pressure. (those boxes are rather thin, and so the wheels receive plenty of pressure)
A clamp truck is not always used, it cannot be used when boxes are rather small or when they are heavy, as could be the case with liquids. Such items are placed on a pallet inside the trailer and then a pallet truck is used to move it to location. But in general a clamp truck is a very important power equipment item in a warehouse / distribution center. Accident can also happen for no fault of an operator.
A few times, when operating lift trucks, I had to declare a truck unsafe and call for service, as it was not responding uniformly over the range of control movements (pedal or levers). Normally, you "advance" a control a little, and a truck responds a little. But sometimes nothing happens as you move the control, but then the damn thing "jumps" on you.
I don't know how the trailers are unloaded at Future Shop, Circuit City, Sears or a similar warehouse, but it could well be that they do not use clamp trucks. (Future Shop and Sears sell refrigerators, washing machines, dishwashers, those cannot be safely manipulated with a clamp truck, as they are far too heavy for it.)
Sears sells high-end furniture, it has to be loaded manually. The reason Canadian Tire widely uses clamp trucks at its distribution centers is because a good part of their merchandize can be manipulated this way. For example, ready-to-assemble furniture is ideally suited for a clamp truck. You can squeeze a box like that pretty hard and not be afraid that it breaks. But then a trailer with TVs arrives and the guys unload it as if it is just as sturdy as boxes with wood.
Plus even if the management would decree that electronics is not to be manipulated with clamp trucks, sometimes you have to reload boxes from a damaged pallet to a good one. There could easily be twenty boxes on a pallet, all wrapped in stretch film. Transferring them by hand is too much trouble, it is much easier to move a whole bundle with a clamp truck. A damaged pallet poses a very serious risk. It can get stuck somewhere at the top level in storage, you want to take the pallet out, but it does not move, as one plank had separated and got stuck in the modular shelving. The pallet may turn, flip and the boxes end up on a floor.
If it is oil, chlorine bleach, paint, solvent, antifreeze, etc, then you can imagine the mess.
Hope this info can save some buyers some trouble
I purchased many things at Canadian Tire over the years. Just recently we bought a Micro Wave oven. After 3 months it stopped working. They replaced it immdiatly no questions asked. The same with a TV set a couple of years ago.
I tend to think that's not all of Crappy Tire's problems, though thanks for the insight, Onion.
One of the elements of the jobs I've done over the years where I work involves weld spatter. In Q.A., we of course had many more technical things to monitor, check and test. But always, there's keeping an eye on the spatter. And in production I may be keeping a keen eye out for porosity, penetration, etc, it's while I'm chipping off the spatter.
Spatter isn't important to the functioning of the product. And only when it's severe does it really effect the aesthetic. But probably since the first welder welded, the amount of spatter has been used as an indicator of how tight the quality control measures and ethics are of the manufacturer.
Similarly, I look for such indicators in other businesses.
I note that Crappy Tire uses the "door crasher" specials. Which is a legal work around of the ol' bait and switch. Is it a good, or bad indicator when you can see a company putting their toes right to the line which defines legal and illegal business practices?
Now comes the tale of the Hideous Pink Tupperware Garbage Container. For some reason, many years previuos to when this intersects with Crappy Tire, my ex had purchased the Hideous Pink Tupperware Garbage Container for our kitchen. When my ex and I split, suddenly the Hideous Pink Tupperware Garbage Container took on some kind of symbolism in my mind.
It had to go.
So, I noticed that Crappy Tire was selling just what I wanted-- on sale no less-- a stainless steel garbage container with a foot pedal so you could dispose of garbage without touching the actual garbage container. Handy when you're cooking, saves hand washing.
I got my stainless steel garbage container home, and, I think on the second or third depression of the foot pedal, the lid didn't rise as expected.
It was broken. Close examination of the lid showed something really funny. The whole mechanism was steel. The foot pedal, the rods that transfered the pressure from the foot pedal all the way up to the stainless steel lid. Except, where all these levers transfered the stress to the lid, a little plastic thingymadoo was used. All steel, except the part that takes the most stress.
Thinking I'd have a battle with Crappy Tire at customer service over exchange, store credit, etc., ( I wanted my money back and a complete severence of our business relationship) I was dissapointed. The guy at customer service processed it routinely, refunded my money, saying, "Yeah, we get a lot of these back."
Yeah, we get a lot of these back...... You know, a purchaser should have seen the rather obvious design fault of the garbage can in the first place, and considered what it says about Crappy Tire if he or she should decide to sell it to their customers. And, failing that, cusotmer feed back, like, getting a lot of them back, should tell them there's a problem.
But, they fix the problem with a liberal customer return policy.
Except, this customer never returned.
A couple of years later, I was in Crappy Tire with someone else who was ignoring my two cents worth on Crappy Tire, and what did I see? The same stainless steel garbage cans. And, the display model still sported the plastic thingymadoo that's bound to fail.
I wonder what the cost difference was between that plastic thingymadoo and a more robust steel one?
And, I wonder what the cost has been on that item for returns, and loss of custom?
It's only a garbage can. But, like spatter, it's an indicator.
This brings back some interesting memories from when I worked at a Canadian Tire distribution centre in Toronto about 30 years ago. (The place was torn down about a year ago.) It was an entry level job in a non-union shop. My two main responsibilities were to:
1) Keep the warehousee "neat". I would drive up and down the aisles of merchandise on a tow motor pulling a very large wooden bin into which I would throw empty cardboard boxes. Once the bin was full, I would drive over to the compactor and dump the boxes in. I was also a sweeper.
2) Towveyor operator. A towveyor is a moving, under-the-floor heavy duty cable. Order takers would drop off their open carts that they pulled around on their tow motors to fill orders for individual stores (tires were at another facility). My job was to disconnect the "train" of carts and attach each one to the underground cable where it would be pulled to the shipping area.
Here's the hitch. Shipping was one level below the warehouse. So the toyveyor had to go down a ramp. However the toyveyor was not designed to go downhill and every so often a cart would come loose from the floor and go flying down this ramp, knocking the carts in front of it off the track too and they would smash head on into - you guessed it - a small wall of tires.
So I'm adding more evidence to the claim that CTC has problems with the way they handle the merchandise.
Towveyor system
When I started in manufacturing, way back in the last century, parts moved by human power, mostly, through the process, untill they were placed....well, thrown...heaved...into a wire basket or steel pallet.
Now, of course, in theory, steel can come off a truck and never touch human hands except at the end of the component cells, and at the end of the line where they are assembled and welded.
Man. Should have bought shares in one of those photo eye and proximity switch factories years ago.
Hmm. There's still money to be made, perhaps. Some kind of "finders fee" when I alert the decendents of Rube Goldberg to obvious copyright infringement?
Regarding an exchange policy, it can certainly add to customer satisfaction, but if the warehouse practices are such that the risk of product damage is higher, than with competitors, then no exchange policy would be able to make up for that reality, as one way or the other, the costs would have to be passed on to a consumer.
And, of course, no exchange policy would bring satisfaction if you happened to buy a product, which is poorly designed. Once I bought a foot pump at CTC. It was so poorly designed that the pedal support bent as soon as I tried operating it. They were willing to exchange it, but why do I need a new product, which is just as crappy?
There is no exchange on bicycles at CTC, which, of course, makes sense from the point of view of a retailer. I bought a bicycle at Can Tire once, I failed to notice that the front wheel was visibly deformed, there was also some problem with a pedal assembly, it "wobbled". My next bike was from a bike store, I paid more, but I believe that overall you get a better deal on the upscale items in specialty places. CTC or Wal Mart are good for things like batteries, screwdrivers, shoepolish, etc. But Chinatown is even better. A backpack at CTC would likely cost half in Chinatown, exactly the same thing.
Regarding a reply from Polunatic2, it was the Sheppard warehouse, which have been torn down a few years ago, but the distribution centre at Bramalea - Steeles also has two floors. The shipping is on the second floor, carts are moved on a towveyor over a ramp, but they go back to the ground floor if their designated spurs (branches) at shipping bays happened to be full. (the word "towveyor" is rarely used, everybody calls it "track", just as "skid" is used 99% of the time instead of a proper word "pallet") When a loaded cart was unable to enter the circle track around shipping dept (no gaps), it goes back down the ramp, and it is a risky journey, it can come off the track chain, hit the next cart, dislodge it, or it can hit the carts going up, it can turn sideways or backwards and make a big mess, with merchandize all over the ramp, plenty of it crushed. When that happens, you can hear it anywhere in the DC, and it can take some time before the track can start moving again.
Sometimes an item falls off a cart and gets underneath the following cart, getting dragged with it. If it happened to be a bag with cat litter, soil, dried manure, seeds/bird feed or similar stuff, it becomes a big mess all along the track. I have also seen tires falling off and getting underneath the carts. If someone had noticed it promptly, he would stop the track and pull the tire out, wipe it, examine it, if there is no visible damage, it is placed back in stock.
Cart frames at Bramalea DC have an "ideal height" to "grab" a tire and squeeze it. If the track was stopped fast enough and the tire was spared from being dragged underneath a cart, there would likely be no visible damage, even though it could have been squeezed pretty hard, it would likely go back to stock.
Their newer DC (AJ Billes at Goreway north of Hwy 407) is more modern, it was built in 1993, the entire towveyor is on the ground floor, but conveyors there are 3 or 4-level, people have to climb all the way up to load merchandize. (It is sweltering hot up there in summer) Bramalea DC only has one isolated area with this type of conveyors (so-called area 84). But that equipment can also "stress" the merchandize. When you operate the cardboard compactor at Brampton DC, you can see everything that happens on the area 84 conveyors.
Many times I have seen small boxes being flipped on those conveyors at junction points. Every conveyor segment moves the merchandize one level up to the next segment, which is at an angle to the previous segment in a fashion similar to a stairway. And so a box just spins there, but does not advance to the next conveyor segment. This can continue for several minutes, till the next box comes and pushes it up. Larger boxes, which are long enough to span the adjacent segments of a conveyor, are more likely to pass a junctions without problem.
I think the key thing here Onion, is that you don't go back. In fairness, every business makes misstakes, and I'm not one to get all pissy over the first time something goes wrong, or even the second. But, the stainless steel garbage can was my re-entry experience after I had avoided Crappy Tire for years over other unsatisfactory experiences I'd had with them.
I won't bother with them. And, I wouldn't even tell them why, even if I thought they were interested. My complaint might cause them to change, and I'm not interested in making them a better and more profitable business. For free.
Before manufacturing, I picked up a stop gap job at a drug store warehouse. I was assigned a job dealing with customer returns. Sometimes, I'd have to make a decision as to whether an item was okay to return to stock in the warehouse, or whether to throw it out. Unsure at first making these weighty decisions, I asked an older guy. He looked at me like I had two heads, or like I was soft in the head, and said, "Well, would you buy it?"
Possibly the only thing one really needs to know about quality control and customer relations.
Later, as a Quality Technician in a plant that makes important components for light, medium and heavy trucks, sometimes a co-worker would ask about some questionable defect.
I'd say, "you take your kids down the 401 from time to time, do you want to be beside the truck with that part on it?"
Has a way of clarifying things.
Realistically speaking, it is impossible for a retailer to start corresponding with manufacturers and suggesting improvements into their products. After all, it is not some dealer for professional market, where technical specs reign supreme.
Last year I bought a stainless steel pot at Wal Mart, but when I came home, I saw to my horror that the handle was attached with ALUMINUM RIVETS. Aluminum and steel form a pretty active galvanic pair, which would be releasing aluminum ions into cooking, pushing you towards Alzheimers.
I went back there and told them that I want to return it. I've got my money back with no questions asked. I was quite impressed with their service and to return a favor somewhat, I decided to alert their management and so I sent them email describing this problem. But then I realized that this is a futile exercise, as I doubt there can be realistic channels for them to start corresponding with manufacturers, suggesting technical improvement into products.
Exactly the same applies to CTC or any other store. If some Joe-six-pack is too ignorant about aluminum cookware, especially when it has a galvanic pair, that is his problem and no store (perhaps with the exception of Dr.Mercola's mail-order), would be troubling themselves with trying to educate anyone (consumers or manufacturers).
I believe the issue with that stainless steel garbage bin, as mentioned by Tommy_Paine, is not its design, but the willingness of the retailer to provide a refund for a poorly designed product. It would be nice to think that their purchasing people evaluate every product before buying it, but the reality is likely to be different.
With this regard, I found TigerDirect to be at he low end of customer service. A few years ago I bought a spindle of DVD-R blanks from them, among other things. 13 out of 20 or 25 DVDs had active layer missing on a good part of the surface. It was from some company in Taiwan.
Tiger policy is no exchanges / no refunds on media. I told them that DVDs are visibly defective, there is no active layer on half of them, but did not get anywhere. And so I would never again buy media at Tiger (and, of course, would never again buy that brand)
That's exactly how I see this post. There is an issue I observed at CTC, it might be expensive to learn about it from your own experience, and so here is an alert from an insider.
I would assume that Canadian Tire would apply the refund as a credit against the supplier. As the problem is not being fixed it must have not become an issue. Either the returns are not high enough or the value is buried in the total volume of business.
I went back there and told them that I want to return it. I've got my money back with no questions asked. I was quite impressed with their service and to return a favor somewhat, I decided to alert their management and so I sent them email describing this problem. But then I realized that this is a futile exercise, as I doubt there can be realistic channels for them to start corresponding with manufacturers, suggesting technical improvement into products.
Actually, companies like Walmart do have active channels with their suppliers, very active channels. In fact, Walmart can pretty much take over a supplier in all but name.
In the auto industry, being a parts supplier means that Ford, or GM (never delt with Chrysler) can, and do, come into the supplier plants for more than just a look see, depending on the issues. And, you'd be quite suprized to see at what detail they know your business. And what a giant ass pain Ford can be.
Burried deep in the news a few months ago, Mattel was fined or something (no arrests, there should have been) because it came out that they knew there was lead in the paint of toys they were getting from Chinese suppliers.
But, even if it had turned out that they didn't know, they should have. It's hardly a deffence for what is a criminal act.
What company name went on those toys made in China? Did the executives allow thier children or grandchildren play with those toys?
Garbage cans and the CTC, and this thread explaining things for me.
A couple of years back, I bought a white enamel metal garbage can fron CT. All metal parts on the mechanisms to flip the lid open and it was just what I was looking for, tall and slender. And it was on sale for 60% off, which actually made it affordable to buy, as I could not believe how expensive metal garbage cans were and was thinking about not getting one at all. However, it had a big dent in the side, as if it got squished somehow, and now I realize that is exactly what happened to it. Of course that was the last one in stock too.
So, with no options left, as I had looked all over town for decent metal cans and CT was the last place left, I went and looked at the stainless ones, and tried their foot pedal mechanisms and found what tommy found, and was not going to pay that kinda price for something that is going to break within a year. Plus they were to fat for the space I wanted to put it in.
Thus...I drifted back to the dented one, and had a closer look at the dented area. Found there were no crinkles in the enamel that would chip, and figured that the dent was big enough that it should just pop right back into place, if a rubber mallet was used on the inside to knock it back out.
Anyhow, I took the chance and bought it, at that price I figured I would live with the dent, if it did not fully pop back into place. Happily, it did and you would never ever know that it had had a dent even. And it works perfectly.
BTW, the can I bought was from the Debbie Travis collection, so I figured she must have had a say in how the mechanism was constructed to flip the lid open. Until tommy noted that he pays attention to the mechanisms, I thought only women did. ;)
I try to. I probably do too much assuming, still. I look for value, eloquence. I love when tools or systems are eloquent. With the garbage can, I only looked after it broke. I assumed something such as that wouldn't have such an obvious design flaw. (planned obsolecence?)
When I buy kitchen utensils, for example, I look at the handles, look for places dirt will hide, the way dissimilar materials are mated, all kinds of things like that. I bought a set from a dollar store that are just stamped out from stainless steel. No fancy handle to break or fall off or hide dirt. Wash and dry in a second. Price wasn't a consideration, even though they were from the dollar store. I'd have paid more elsewhere, happily. The dollar store just happened to have them.
Seems Walmart has sold the idea that cost and value are one in the same. On the other end of things, just because someone slapped the name of a dead designer on something doesn't lend the item value. I remember, when shopping around for a vehicle, I saw an "Eddie Bauer" edition of an S.U.V. I told my ex that for that money, if anyone's name goes on the door, it'll be mine.
It's probably why I'm not into electronics and such like I used to be. I look at the utility, the cost, and if other people are actually made happier by the device.
I do not have a blackberry. Or a cell phone. Or an I pod. Or any of that stuff. The computer makes me happier, usually. But I'm teetering on the brink of turfing the T.V., or at least cable. That shit's starting to scare me.
No, cable here, no satillite dish, nor none of that other stuff either, but I do have stamped out of stainless steel kitchen utensils from the dollar store. ;)
Going to go to Canadian Tire next week and buy a new wheel barrow, as will be in "the city". Hoping they will be on sale now, as our 25 year old one has bitten the final dust, no more repairs are possible, and it is perhaps our most used tool.
Debbie Travis is pretty damn picky about what her name is put on. Her looks have absolutely nothing to do with her ability.