babble is rabble.ca's discussion board but it's much more than that: it's an online community for folks who just won't shut up. It's a place to tell each other — and the world — what's up with our work and campaigns.
Are NDPers still welcome here?
August 16, 2009 - 7:49pm
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99% of the time I find our moderators do a superb job, with many difficult situations, and I commend them for their efforts.
However it does appear there needs to be some changes made concerning how discussions around the NDP are dealt with, as it appears that the NDP and its supporters are fair game for any, and all attacks.
Recently, 2 NDP supporters have been suspended, at least other NDPer has inferred he is leaving, and another left. Who knows how many other NDP supporters have left?
Are NDP supporters not welcome here?
Little late to the party, NR.
This has been an NDP unfriendly board for sometime now, but I'm afraid that when the party shows more faith in the Globe and Post than its own troops some of their members will be less eager to defend them. I say "their" because my loyalty has always been contingent on what I believe are perfectly reasonable expectations and demands, and some understanding shown of the deep fix were all in. (and therefore the need to address some of the deep structural inequities supporting it) A degree of daring and originality is occasionally nice to see too. Those are two things the old NDP could honestly take some pride in.
I think many of those who are said to be anti-NDP would really like the NDP to live up to the ideals of the Regina Manifesto. In their (our) eyes, the NDP has turned on itself. What we criticise we would like to see changed.
Reasonable debates are healthy and important for any organization but what goes on here a large part of the time in relation to the NDP is absurd, such as the NDP's position on Afghanistan, on banks, etc. It is utter bullshit, but the bullshit keeps getting repeated day after day, and is tolerated here, no matter how big the lies are. It is the tolerance for the constant baiting through the repeating of lies that is helping to destroy the environment.
In most cases I would agree but with some it can get a little too personal and persistent at times. I don't think the NDP should be bound by the defunct CCF Manifesto anymore, but most of its basic principles and the spirit which inspired it should still be respected, even by non-socialist members.
As you are no doubt aware, rabble/babble is not affiliated with the NDP.
To the extent that the NDP supports policies that babblers support, it can find support here.
But to the extent that NDP militants feel entitled to instruct other babblers to switch off their brains and support the Party, then they can expect a certain amount of blowback.
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The last sentence here is an example of the kind of baiting I am talking about.
I'm a member of the NDP. I give them money. I'm not all that active these days, but I get out knocking on doors and phoning during elections. I'm perhaps fortunate in having had local candidates I could get a bit exited about, even during passing times I might be less exited about the leadership.
If I feel I have some criticism of the party, (and my other duties on this site permit) I'm going to say something about it. If I have criticisms of the other parties, it's pretty much par for the course, so I may not. It's a given. I will probably point out the more egregious stuff, but I don't have shattered expectations when the Libs or Conservatives screw up. I am of the opinion that generally, my party is drifting into a position just a bit to the left of where the Liberals pretend to be during election. I personally find this dispiriting. I also think they're not real well organised, and don't get the message out real well. Part of the problem is that the MSM doesn't report the message, but we could do a better job of meeting them half way with a well articulated and exiting message.
So that's that, no big deal, but what will get me really pissed off, is someone suggesting I can't or shouldn't criticise the NDP. This site isn't an organ of the party, but even if it were, don't damn well tell me not to express my opinion, even if you don't like it.
So NDP'ers are welcome, but here's where I'll really shock you. Liberals, Conservatives, Communists, and even the Greens are welcome too, as long as they abide by the rules and try not to be assholes. Even social conservatives can post here, although they're best sticking to food gardening and hockey threads, so we don't know they're social conservatives.
Seems to me NDP militants are asking people to turn on their brains and stop listening to the party.
BTW, I think Stephen's post is perfectly reasonable.
Why do you think that would shock me?
And I think it is that kind of comment that is causing some of the problems here.
For whom?
I am an NDP member, I have on occasion been an NDP riding exec member. I support the party in general. I have not always been pleased by the behaviour of the party and some of its members.
The last sentence remind is complaining of is a perfectly accurate description of much of Fidel's behaviour. I'm not thrilled about citing him while he is under suspension but he is far and away the poster whose behaviour is like that.
There are others who robustly defend the party, partiularly from the point of view of electoral success above all. Also there are some apparently prohibitionist members of the party who are rabid about Dana (given the party history this should not be a surprise).
Frankly I don't see Babble as unfriendly to NDPers per se. Some kinds of party members will get a rough ride.
One of the problems with the no personal attacks rule is that it encourages people not to name names when complaining about misbehaviour. This can lead to "Are they talking about me?" questions and general feelings of snark.
No one is condoning bad behaviour by NDP supporters, nor by the NDP as a whole, and this is a red herring.
What contributes to part of the "NDP" problem here is that 99% of the mainstream press supports the right-wing policies of Conservative, Liberal, and even Green political parties, and viciously attack the NDP every chance they get, so NDPers like to, I suppose, gather here and consider it some kind of refuge from the constant surrounding storm. Then when they come here they get attacked by sometimes disguised Liberals, who infer they are NDP supporters, or were previously NDP supporters, etc. It is the blatant lies, and the baiting, that cause most of the friction.
This is an open board. There is a limit to how safe it can be. The moderators focus on safety is for feminists and POC. This is as it should be. You want an NDP safe space, go use Mouseland.
This oft-repeated trope of "disguised liberals" is curious. Not only does it strike me as implicitly reducing politics to identification with one or another major political party, it seems particularly odd given that (from what I can tell anyway), much of the criticism of the NDP I've seen here comes from the left of it, which should be unsurprising given what appears to be the aggregate political positioning of rabble.ca (if the line-up of columnists is any indication, at least).
I've found it a curious phenomenon too, theboxman. And have almost given up trying to moderate it.
For the record, I'm a card-carrying member of the NDP. I donate to them monthly, and I have always and will always vote for them as they represent the closest to my values of any political party.
I've never volunteered for them, have never attended convention.
I will critique them for what I see as institutional barriers and non-inclusion practices that could very well result in the revitalizing of the party if only small efforts were made. If only real change was truly wanted.
So to answer the question of the OP, NDPers, however defined, are welcome here on babble.
All I can say is that around election time the NDP spam hits this board like an avalanche as their internet agents come out of the woodwork. You're between fake elections now, so the NDP numbers are abated, thankfully, but the horde will come. So my advice to you is to relax and wait -- your time will come.
Cueball you're so sweet to remind us of those times to come.
Agreed. Including the last sentence that NR found to be part of the problem.
As well as this point in particular, I concurr with the comments in the post that precede it.
I don't think there is the red herring you see, NR. And while I'm hesitant to make this personal, and I'm sure there are some who concurr with you, not withstanding that, I think the majority even of NDP partisans disagree with you on this.
You may feel yourself included personally in the attacks on the NDP and on particular dippers, but I really think it is particular behavious that gets dippers offended, not including the kind of things yu say and the way you go about it.
I find much of the criticism of the NDP tiresome- enough so that there are a lot of threads I don't read, let alone post in. [For example, I only know that Fidel and Stockholm were suspended- the latter only for a day I think. I had not read any of the discussions that led up to their suspensions.]
But I don't in general find the criticism unfair or untoward. And certainly do not feel that about the mods.
While I don't think it is a major problem (one that cannot be dealt with by the dynamics of the group and, when necessary, the moderators) I can perceive the problem that NorthReport has observed.
I think its worth noting something I am always aware of.
Babble not only isn't an NDP board, but the community here has to put up with it being the default main discussion place for Dippers.
Its not like the community- and even its individual members who don't like the NDP- don't get something in return for that. Traffic for one thing. Tends to mean more vital discussions. And we 'frame' a bully pulpit for many of those individuals who don't like the NDP, even provide in practice the counterpoint they implicitly depend on for defining themselves.
But that relationship- preponderant weight of dippers on a board that is definitely not NDP- is full of all sorts of tensions and paradoxes.
There are quite a number of criticisms of or attacks on the NDP that are, or can be, made by both Liberals [acknowledged, 'disguised' or de facto], and by lefties who are 'non-partisan' in the usual sense of the term... the sense that in practice applies here.
Now those 'non-partisan' lefties have a stake and a position that is as strong and plays the same role in discussions as those that are partisan in the usual sense of the word. So they are not by any means 'neutral'... and intentionally or not 'non-partisan' criticism appropriates or just gets a cloak of pseudo-neutrality that is a sham.
But it as at best inappropriate to treat people as 'disguised Liberals' just because there is a commonality between the substance of their comments and sticks Liberals use to beat the NDP.
No one has suggested that there are not posters here that are more left than the NDP. Of couse there are. Disguised Liberals was just an example. Part of the problem for NDP supporters is that most of the time they are usually up front about who they support, whereas some, not all, and not necssarily those on the left, but some nevertheless come here and lie about who they support. Yes we can often figure it out over time, but it is one thing to have a debate, and disagree over an issue, but to be lied to as well, really compounds things on a board like this.
Thread drift here: Since the others are closed now, can someone closer please ask Bookish Agrarian again to please not leave. There are a lot of us here I know who really appreciate your contributions and hope you return; my respect doesn't depend on my happening to agree with everything anyone says. If that was true I couldn't even get together with my own family. Maybe this latest battle will help increase the understanding between different camps here -at least it's being talked about directly for a change.
As you were.
ETA: And sorry guys, but having been in the middle of alot of it myself, there is such a thing as Orange baiting going on with some here and NDPers usually gets less favoured treatment than others here. I could find a couple examples just from the last day if someone thinks I'm being too sensitive myself. Just because my own support has wavered doesn't mean I've forgotten, I think BA was right about that much. I don't think theyre Liberals though, most Liberals here usually seem to wait in the background before chiming in at opportune times. It was probably a Liberal here who ratted on Dana though. Sorry again, but had to be said by someone.
It's not thread drift Erik, it's mundane to this thread.